Future of Coil in DF

Was wondering a few things about the future of coil and DF. First since T5 is available in DF, I never successfully beat it, but i did beat it a lot of time with my static. As thing are going, we are hitting 2.3 where 2nd coil will not change (week lockout) and if we follow things the way the previously handed coil. for 2.4 there will be 3rd coil with echo for 2nd coil and I imagine 25% echo for 1st coil. (Speculation here)

In 3 to 5 months, 2.4 will be released and I assume 2nd coil in DF. But Right now i'm under the impression that even T5 in DF is too much, so i won't even start to think about doing T6 in DF and all T7 BS with voices.

So i'm asking how do you see the futur of coil in DF?? Will there be a time where Coil will ne longer be viable in DF or square will nerf it to death with 50% echo or something??

Thx

If current DF can't manage to kill Twintania with 15% echo (heck, even most PF parties aswell), I don't see anything happening from that onwards.

they stopped increasing echo buff at 15%, for 1st coil. They probably will not increase it, since it's already to easy.
DF is basically just practice ground...as far as coil goes. But if they add DF to 2nd coil....well at least the people that got through T5....should be somewhat capable (not really)
Hopefully you cant DF for T9, until you actually got there though.
DF in general, is just way to random to be viable anyway, unless you get super lucky.

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Originally Posted by NoRyoKu

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I don't think it would be an issue to be honest. People's habits aren't really going to change. The one's who can't down T5 now should be ilvl100+ by 2.4 or whenever Coil3 is out. Remember that 2.3 has Sands/Oil/Unidentified non-allagan available without having to raid. Even if they don't echo buff Coil more, groups should be able to survive dive bombs and honestly twisters is very easy to dodge mechanic and phase 5 is braindead. So a big group of players will pass T5 who can start on Coil2 with better gear than current raiders and maybe another 5-15% echo buff on top.

I think it'll work out like this on average. Casual players will finally clear T5 but stuck on T6-7, Mainstream players will be blocked by T9 and Hardcore will be on Coil3. With each Coil update I think progression will be made by all groups and DF will be the way casuals and mainstream can farm lower Coil for gearing up alts and practice for w/e is roadblocking them. PFs can take awhile to form, so why not queue in DF and double check PFs.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

If current DF can't manage to kill Twintania with 15% echo (heck, even most PF parties aswell), I don't see anything happening from that onwards.

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^ this

Non raiders are considered non raiders for a reason. Them putting it in DF doesn't suddenly make it not raid content.

Don't expect them to get anywhere with random PF/DF groups if they aren't willing to put in the time/effort to learn their role and execute.

People derp to snakes and twisters from my experience with T5 at this point when I've bothered to DF or PF it.. or kill the whole group with a divebomb.. don't think I've actually had a successful T5 clear in a pug group on my main or alt, though T1 - T4 are np.

Why don't they put second coil in df? I rather fail and wipe on df than having to go find a party to go fail and wipe.

Just my speculation here....

No amount of echo buff will allow people to get past T7. If you can't handle the mechanics, 400% echo won't get you a win. I think you are right with your speculation, in that when 3rd coil releases then 2nd coil will be put in DF with echo. I also think SE will continue putting the turns in DF, I just don't see a random group with no coordination passing T7.

Unless they severely nerf the mechanics of the fight, I would go so far as to say that a DF win with completely random people would never be possible. There are so many ways to easily mess up, and even if you get 7 experienced people who have beat it before that 1 person who has no experience can wipe everyone every time. I have DF'ed T5 before to try and help people get a win when I was bored and most others I group with that have knowledge of the fight just leave after 1-2 tries without a win. This will happen exponentially more with T7, because it can still be a headache for statics if you get bad RNG or push a phase at an inopportune time.

I also agree with Radacci. DF or not I don't think anyone should be allowed to just 'skip' T7-8 to get to T9, but I was already at T5 when 2.2 hit so idk if that's how it will work or not.

TL;DR : I think SE will continue to put old coil turns in the DF after they have been out for 6 months to make them accessible to the general public, but I don't think the general public will have much of a chance at 2nd coil turns with random groups. Lots of coordination is needed and no amount of echo buff will ever be the determining factor in a T7 win. You might be able to push phases faster, but you will still have to deal with them.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Which is how it should be. Means they made mechanics that you actually have to follow instead of just ignoring and burning through everything.

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Totally agree.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Just my speculation here....

No amount of echo buff will allow people to get past T7. If you can't handle the mechanics, 400% echo won't get you a win.

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Which is how it should be. Means they made mechanics that you actually have to follow instead of just ignoring and burning through everything.

I think you would need to be extremely lucky to beat any of T6-9 in DF. The way the fights are designed now as opposed to T1-4 is in a way where communication is just so important. With people not knowing where to go with honey on T6 or not getting a shout for voice/shriek in T7 etc. It just seems quite unlikely.

I'm not saying nobody will be able to do it, of course they will. But it will be a very small percentage.

A mechanic nerf will come for 2nd coil when the 3rd installment comes. The 1st coil does get mechanic nerfs.

T2 was quite a cockblock to a large number of groups just like how T7 is. I believe that the duration of petrified will reduce or even removable via Esuna/Leech just like the High Voltage nerf.

Honestly speaking, it can be a good and bad thing. Good in the sense that it is easier to clear, but it blatantly make bad players stay bad because they learn nothing out of it. I've pugged the first coil via DF significantly during the earlier weeks of 2.2 to gear up all my 9 jobs to i90, the amount of people who can't silence ADS are just simply alarming.

edit: posted in wrong thread lol

Coil should stay the way it is, difficult & harsh. once more alternate paths to endgame gear is released you'll see less people DF for coil or even bother, but i would like coil to be the forefront of endgame gear for the first few months.

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Good in the sense that it is easier to clear, but it blatantly make bad players stay bad because they learn nothing out of it.

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Even in it's nerfed state there is plenty to learn in T1-5. The notion that people learn nothing with it nerfed and with the Echo is quite frankly, a bunch of BS. It's still harder content than anything that comes before it, maybe with the exception of the EX primals. Just because you see bad players doesn't mean they're eternally stuck in some state of being terrible, without ever learning anything.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Even in it's nerfed state there is plenty to learn in T1-5. The notion that people learn nothing with it nerfed and with the Echo is quite frankly, a bunch of BS. It's still harder content than anything that comes before it, maybe with the exception of the EX primals. Just because you see bad players doesn't mean they're eternally stuck in some state of being terrible, without ever learning anything.

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Well, if there are so much things to learn, we should be seeing a higher percentage of players clearing Turn 5. Which in fact, we aren't.

Yes, T1-5 are still harder than any content around, maybe except Titan EX. But I'm looking at the finer details here. In Turn 1, I've seen lots of players who doesn't bother learning how to anticipate when High Voltage will come even though it is easy to tell, and get prepared to silence it. Nope, these lot of players don't learn nor bother to learn and just ignore it, leaving it to the poor healer to raid heal and Esuna the paralysis away from him/herself and the tank.

I have seen tanks who doesn't know how to effectively rotate their CDs on Turn 1 and 4 and causes suddenly and drastic drop in their HP. Bless them that they have echo to beef up their HP and many times, experienced healers to heal them back (I've got to thank Echo for this too). I've been mostly playing as a WHM in the Echo'd 1st coil for 30-50 games because things like Healing Choker and Earring refused to drop even after playing 20 times of each of the turns. Have seen a lot of these players who are simply LOL and when you tried to teach them or give them a tips or two, they still derp much or even reply you things like "having access to silence and knowing how is another story", which aren't I giving you tips to know how? You should be learning how YOURSELF by the way, it is your own initiative. Just because me and my healer partner can heal them through doesn't mean that they should continue playing in this manner. Which is essentially what I call learning nothing out of it.

IDK about you - you doesn't seem to have stepped into 2nd coil yet. Maybe when the day you do and experience the difference between 2nd coil and 1st coil, you might come to understanding that 2nd coil will well destroy these players if they carry such attitude and play style over. And what you will get is more QQ about how tough 2nd coil and what not because they haven't been learning the proper techniques.

Those groups that have cleared the 1st coil without Echo (and even doing T2 rot passing method) are still struggling with T7 and some T8. I don't expect much from groups who just barely survive the 1st coil with Echo.

Echo is just there, provided by SE to push people through content. Note the word push. It is to merely lessen the difficulty to pass the gate that gated them previously, so that they wouldn't complaint or feel lagging behind, and let them have the access to the new content in the new patches (afterall, they are paying customers). Note the word again, letting them have access. All in all Echo is mainly pushing them and letting them have access to new contents. But Echo is unable to prepare them for the new content in its current difficulty unlike the other players who cleared the old content without Echo do. The un-Echoed 1st coil and Titan/Ifrit EX really taught players a lot of things (and note, in i90 and lesser gears), especially with similar mechanics appearing in 2nd coil and Levi EX, these players are actually better managing them.

This includes me. I greatly thank especially Titan EX. I started as a dragoon and I'm the kind of bad dragoon people would flame me all over. But things like Titan HM and EM taught me a great deal about dodging, anticipating, and pushing myself to deal greater DPS to the point that I've become more proficient in what I do, being able to sell runs etc.

T8s ballistic missile in a pug...
Also tower activation.
Now that i think about it t9 might be more pug-friendly than t8 o_0

^
T9 meteors are more punishing than T8 ballistic missiles.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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Terrible players are one thing, and you're cherry picking examples to suit your argument, but stating that people don't learn through experience when they're assisted by Echo/Nerfs is something else altogether. You NEED to learn strategy to get past Titan EX and T5, unless you get carried of course, but we're talking about DF. So what if they hit the wall with Coil 2, that's what it's been designed for. So what if echo helps them get through content without it being on the razor's edge, that's what it's there for. It's no different than us hitting Coil1 for the first time last year and struggling against the learning curve. How easy was everything up until Coil 1? Pretty trivial right? This is the same pattern.

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You should be learning how YOURSELF by the way, it is your own initiative. Just because me and my healer partner can heal them through doesn't mean that they should continue playing in this manner. Which is essentially what I call learning nothing out of it.

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Yeah well in that case you're actually carrying them, and impacting their education by being vastly overgeared for the content. You could help them learn faster by under gearing, if you're actually that concerned about it.

I'm not exactly that concerned about them, to be honest. Affects my selling business eventually, if no bad players who am I going to sell Primal EX and Coil 1 to? *chuckles*

But just putting another side of the story to the table. It isn't mine or your responsibility to make them a better player, that motivation should have come within them. But of cos if they eventually does improve and become a good player, I'm of course happy to see more good end-game players to play with.

i would say its going to come to df just like 1st coil.

oh and its possible to df t5 easily. but only if you play with jp players.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I'm not exactly that concerned about them, to be honest. Affects my selling business eventually, if no bad players who am I going to sell Primal EX and Coil 1 to? *chuckles*

But just putting another side of the story to the table. It isn't mine or your responsibility to make them a better player, that motivation should have come within them. But of cos if they eventually does improve and become a good player, I'm of course happy to see more good end-game players to play with.

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Haha, so on one hand you're concerned that the Echo helps people get through content without learning much, while at the same time you're carrying groups and ensuring they learn even less... there's a word for that kind of double standard.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Haha, so on one hand you're concerned that the Echo helps people get through content without learning much, while at the same time you're carrying groups and ensuring they learn even less... there's a word for that kind of double standard.

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I think you simply took me as concerned. My original statement was that Echo is a good and bad thing, because it makes people clear content but bad at the same time because bad players stay bad. You were the one who started with people have plenty to learn despite the nerfed state which I simply drawn examples and reasoning why it isn't, and they aren't going to be able to learn as much as pre-nerf. Some doesn't even bother to learn properly anyways. I ended with a brief touch on how I actually benefited from doing the unnerfed content and suggested that players might want to look forward to the same if they really wanted to learn more stuff.

If by any means because of the above statement/advise you believe that I am truly concerned, very concerned, then you have probably misunderstood me. I'm just pointing out that at current state Echo pushes people through content with the risk that they aren't learning much. It is a point raised, not a concern raised. I don't think anyone would be unhappy if like 90% of the player base are awesome players. It may mean less income for us but I'm sure there will be other kind of fun with these great players. But reality isn't - and thus we don't turn down the gil either. Simply being realistic and practical.

Saying things like "T5 in DF is too much" and expecting people to always fail is not an excuse for not including them in DF in the first place.

DF is supposed to be there to give people easier access to forming groups. If you get matched with people who knows the fight, then lucky you. Else, keep on trying.

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I think you simply took me as concerned. My original statement was that Echo is a good and bad thing, because it makes people clear content but bad at the same time because bad players stay bad. You were the one who started with people have plenty to learn despite the nerfed state which I simply drawn examples and reasoning why it isn't, and they aren't going to be able to learn as much as pre-nerf.

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I just think that your point about echo making "bad players stay bad" is kind of BS. That's all really.

You know how it goes, last year it was "FATE leveling creates bad players", in XI people blamed Abyssea. Now it's the Echo. It's all BS. It comes down to the individual and how much they're willing to learn and participate. Echo doesn't change that.

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Situation now is players who passed coil1 with echo learn only 5-10% of what they should've learn in pre-echo coil1

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This was the situation with the Main story and leveling to 50 in 2.0 too. Faceroll content until you hit the wall of Coil (the hardest dungeon) and then get a wake up call. Working as intended.

Like I've said players still need to learn the important mechanics of these fights, I think you're also massively overstating the effect Echo has on people's development.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

T2 was quite a cockblock to a large number of groups just like how T7 is. I believe that the duration of petrified will reduce or even removable via Esuna/Leech just like the High Voltage nerf.

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Do you think reducing petrify duration will help? 1 shriek will cause anyone to get 1shot; that's not really like nerfing High Voltage.
Most healers aren't very good at Esuna/Leech. It's rare that i get DET debuff removed at TitanHM, in roulette. So i don't think a DF pt would be able to get through all the petrify/poison tail, unless you get really lucky with a group.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Even in it's nerfed state there is plenty to learn in T1-5. The notion that people learn nothing with it nerfed and with the Echo is quite frankly, a bunch of BS. It's still harder content than anything that comes before it, maybe with the exception of the EX primals. Just because you see bad players doesn't mean they're eternally stuck in some state of being terrible, without ever learning anything.

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Nah, it's about reflexes, and attitude. There's this guy in FC, his GF has played games for years, but she doesn't improve; ppl have a *skill cap*
It's like ppl thinking they can be anything they want to be, if they just apply themselves...not really...have you seen Idol? some ppl cant sing, if their lives depended on it :)
As DD, if you always get tunnelvision, you're just gonna wipe your party, in T6-9. They might learn the mechanics, but that don't help if you don't notice them.

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

Saying things like "T5 in DF is too much" and expecting people to always fail is not an excuse for not including them in DF in the first place.

DF is supposed to be there to give people easier access to forming groups. If you get matched with people who knows the fight, then lucky you. Else, keep on trying.

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Yah, but that's like waiting for the stars to align...
It took me 100hrs of TitanX, before i clear it. and only because i started forming pts myself, kicking and replacing ppl...otherwise it would have taken 100+ more.
That was 15hr/day for a week and a half....you know what i could have done with that time instead? go on a 2 week vacation or something...but no, i was wiping to TitanX instead...
PF is quite easy access to forming groups...gives you more control, too.
So, personally, im never gonna do any DF, except for normal instances.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Do you think reducing petrify duration will help? 1 shriek will cause anyone to get 1shot; that's not really like nerfing High Voltage.
Most healers aren't very good at Esuna/Leech. It's rare that i get DET debuff removed at TitanHM, in roulette. So i don't think a DF pt would be able to get through all the petrify/poison tail, unless you get really lucky with a group.

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I don't know how SE is going to do it though, I was just trying to draw a similar possibility with what was done in T2. Except that tecnically Rot from T2 is still supposed to wipe you but you can bypass that with soft enrage. T7 you can't.

Rot is akin to Curse Shriek - handle it wrong, raid wipe. High Voltage is like Cursed Voice. Yes, reduced time in petrified state helps. If you are a mDPS that got petrified, you may need not die even with current 30s timer, but it is a damn long wait. If your raid has 3 ranged DPS and you got voiced, you have a 33% chance to escape instant death if you are not being picked as the Circle of Flames target. Say if the debuff reduced from 30s to 10s and able to be cleansed with Esuna/Leech, I think it does ease the casualty from an error made with Cursed Voice.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

T8s ballistic missile in a pug...
Also tower activation.
Now that i think about it t9 might be more pug-friendly than t8 o_0

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guess you dont know T9 yet

T8 is the easiest turn in 2nd coil beside making DPS check which most ppl dont do

but still easier than T9

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Originally Posted by Crimson-Falcon

guess you dont know T9 yet

T8 is the easiest turn in 2nd coil beside making DPS check which most ppl dont do

but still easier than T9

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Except that i beat it two weeks ago.
And i still think ballistic in its current iteration will be harder to deal with in a pug than second set of meteors.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

A mechanic nerf will come for 2nd coil when the 3rd installment comes. The 1st coil does get mechanic nerfs.

T2 was quite a cockblock to a large number of groups just like how T7 is.

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We must be playing very different games. IN FFXIV Turn 2 was the easiest pug turn since pre 2.1 due to enrage method