carrying unskilled healers..

in my own pug experience there are so many unskilled healers out there that need carrying from skilled healers...
it would be nice to give better skilled healers more recognition, but how? what parser stats would be better for evaluation?

there is no such thing as better skilled healers in the sense of a parser trackable stat. The only thing that matters is that the healer doesn't let anyone die and keeps the parties debuffs cleared as well. Healers with higher skill can continue to perform that function while doing some dps and making the run go faster or by maintaining those criteria on large pulls during speed runs.

During 8 man content it can sometimes be hard to tell which healer is stronger if the weaker one is having his slack picked up by the better healer but its usually not too hard to tell who is performing better. WHM should be maintaining nearly 100% uptime on regen on the tank and getting medica II up for things like stomps or splumes and scholar should not have their fairy die by having it in the wrong location and should be getting succor up before aoe damage or maybe dropping a sacred soil. If you are familiar enough with the things healers are doing to make the run easier, then it becomes very easy to spot them when they are not there and identify the weaker healer. This is a great opportunity to coach them and let them know how they can make their own life easier.

A parser wouldn't be effective, but the healer that had to work harder to make up for the other healer's faults would obviously be the one to receive most recognition.

(inb4 a certain infamous WHM on this forum appears in this thread to offer poor insight)

MP remaining can be a bad sign, one full and one empty means something's not working right.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

MP remaining can be a bad sign, one full and one empty means something's not working right.

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Not necessarily.

I would argue that the one ending with no MP is doing something wrong.

No mp in larger than 4 man groups just means they are the main healer. Works just like the main tanks. Can be even more boring than normal, which is why you will often see one healer in cleric stance.

The real problem with trying to use a measurable metric rather than using your best judgement and recognizing the healer on your own is that the metrics aren't stable. For example

MP remaining depends on what the healers are doing. When you are super comfortable with a fight you will likely find yourself wanting to do some dps as well as heal, so you will be burning mana on that or maybe just throwing some extra stoneskins to keep you busy. Also a weak healer using inefficient heals will run out of mana just the same as the good healer having to burn more heals to make up for the weaker one. The reverse is true for staying at full mana. A good healer being efficient is at full, the same as the weak healer basically doing no healing.

Also just because you healed a dps from 25% to full doesn't mean that you healed the right dps to full because they were more likely to take damage next.

Trying to measure amount of healing done is irrelevant unless you can isolate the target that received the healing as well as remove the overhealing so you can verify the healers were putting the healing where it needed to go and weren't overhealing, but even then that still doesn't cover my last point which is why ultimately you have to recognize the healers on your own by knowing the things to look for during a fight.

Best ways to tell if a healer is fulfilling their role properly is to simply pay attention to the state of the tank and party's health and to track what they are casting which is very easy to see with the cast bar near their name in the party list.

Major signs of a bad or lazy healer from my experience.

- "Reactive Healing": A healer that doesn't anticipate damage that will be coming and only waits until after the tank has taken considerable damage before starting to cast a heal. While short, the time between starting to cast a heal and when it goes off can mean the difference between a live tank and a dead tank. Anticipate the attacks and start the cast a little ahead of time so that the actual heal goes off when the damage is taken.

- "Minimalist Healing":A healer that only does the minimum required of them and only heals and as little as possible. If they really need to conserve mp, that is fine but when they sit with a full mp bar and do pretty much nothing, then there is a problem. If the tank is good or over geared and not much healing is required, then the healer should help out and do some dps.

-"I'm a DPS Healing": A healer that doesn't pay attention to the tank or party's health and is more focused on trying to dps than anything else. If not much healing is required, then fine help out some with dps but a healer's role first and foremost is to heal.

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Originally Posted by Merryl

No mp in larger than 4 man groups just means they are the main healer.

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Or that they're severely overhealing.

Healers should have zero problems sustaining their MP assuming no deaths.

A parser for healing also wouldn't be fair at all to Scholars. WHM would always win for healing out, because it doesn't take Galvanize, Sacred Soil, Eye for an Eye, or enhanced virus into account which is significantly reducing damage taken to everybody in the group. Being a good healer isn't always about who can heal the most HP.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

- "Minimalist Healing":A healer that only does the minimum required of them and only heals and as little as possible. If they really need to conserve mp, that is fine but when they sit with a full mp bar and do pretty much nothing, then there is a problem. If the tank is good or over geared and not much healing is required, then the healer should help out and do some dps.

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This is a little bit weird. You would rather a healer let the tank get really low and then do Cure 2 instead of keeping the tank's HP topped up with Cure 1, Stoneskin and Regen? My Mind is so strong on my WHM that my Cure 1 always heals over 1000 HP, and with the soldiery left side favouring SCH I have to keep an eye on my MP.

Everything else in your post is good, but this one is just weird.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

A parser for healing also wouldn't be fair at all to Scholars. WHM would always win for healing out, because it doesn't take Galvanize, Sacred Soil, Eye for an Eye, or enhanced virus into account which is significantly reducing damage taken to everybody in the group. Being a good healer isn't always about who can heal the most HP.

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Stoneskin. Also, what about the SCHs who don't know what Obey is on their fairy bar? Seeing the fairy heals before a battle is facepalm.

I just play as if the other healer doesn't exist. Any healing they may or may not do is bonus to me. This is the only thing that keeps me sane in 8 man trails/dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

This is a little bit weird. You would rather a healer let the tank get really low and then do Cure 2 instead of keeping the tank's HP topped up with Cure 1, Stoneskin and Regen? My Mind is so strong on my WHM that my Cure 1 always heals over 1000 HP, and with the soldiery left side favouring SCH I have to keep an eye on my MP.

Everything else in your post is good, but this one is just weird.

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I agree with you as to what a healer should be doing as a priority and I may not have been clear enough with my description.

What I meant was the healer that doesn't do any of the things that you mentioned but just throws out the occasional heal and barely keeps the tank alive, and just sits there most of the time.
If a healer is able to do all of their duties, like the stuff you brought up and they still have some free time and mp then they can help DPS some. For example I personally like to toss out some insta-cast DoT's if I have a gap in needing to heal.

well, my main point is that it sucks to have a good healer works his/her arse-off to keep the group up while the unskilled healer doesn't do much at all, and at the end the unskilled healer got the loot and the good healer got nothing.

will be nice if there's a standard established that easily discriminates good healer and at least give them a shout out.

Amount of actions / time.
While doing no or little overhealing.

No overhealing is a pipe dream because even if you were a perfect robot who could shoot spells at the exact right moment a single crit would push you over the edge. Healing is too complex to be broken down into a singular simplistic thing you can measure and judge by.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

No overhealing is a pipe dream because even if you were a perfect robot who could shoot spells at the exact right moment a single crit would push you over the edge. Healing is too complex to be broken down into a singular simplistic thing you can measure and judge by.

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It's not complex.
If you know your cure will replace 1/4 blue bar, then do that when 1/4 blue bar is down. Then make more red bars go down until you need to make that 1/4 blue bar go up again.

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Originally Posted by EdenLost

It's not complex.
If you know your cure will replace 1/4 blue bar, then do that when 1/4 blue bar is down. Then make more red bars go down until you need to make that 1/4 blue bar go up again.

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Yeah sure. All great healers just stare at the HP bars and cast cure 1 / 2 depending on how much of the bar has just went down. :D

In my static there's a perfect synergy between me and the other healer, with me being the scholar.

We don't even have to comunicate anymore, we just know how to play together, and it works greatly.

We even set up a dps heal order for T7 fireballs so that we wont be healing the same DPS, and if you see this video you can see how we both manage t9 healing (you can't see the lustrates and viruses cast by me due to being instant cast)

I completely ignore aoe healings during t9 unless I have some free time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK4gpb5wdg

It's also basically impossible to actually distinguish this. Especially since the qualification of good healing in this game is more complicated than you'd think, since really good healing isn't just about healing, it's also about knowing when you can safely add damage.

the best way to give recognition to the one who deserves it is to play a healer for a few months and then pay attention to the fight when you're dps/tank, you'll be thinking "i would of been doing this" "i wouldn't of done that" "i hope he starts shielding x soon"

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I just play as if the other healer doesn't exist. Any healing they may or may not do is bonus to me. This is the only thing that keeps me sane in 8 man trails/dungeons.

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This. 100% this.

If other healer helps out its all good, otherwise suck it up and do it all.

As for the parcer on actions per minute that would also mean nothing if you are comparing whm with sch. sch will do more actions due to the fact that even if they want to dps anything they will do more attacks. or even overhealing is not constant due to adlo 'overhealing' which will provide a shield and we put it on even if tank is 100% hp.

I find this conversation interesting because I did my first duties with a 2nd healer over the weekend and I thought, "Now what?" As a BRD, I always noticed that the tanks would say, "do you want to MT or OT?", but you don't know who is MH and who is OH. Should I be healing the tanks? Should one of us be healing the MT while the other the OT? Should one be taking care of the DPS and the other the tanks? What about when extra DPS is needed? Who should be slamming on the needles while the other continues to heal? If one is a SCH and the other is WHM, there are so many opportunities to exploit each other's strengths if tactic is applied. When you drop into any of these duties and no one has worked together before, a small bit of communication can help quell the confusion for sure. Somehow, I was able to work through Chimera, Bowl of Embers, and the Hydra; but I think it would have been better had we communicated in the beginning.

Something I found particularly difficult when I first started my 8 mans as WHM was mana management. I would be overusing Cure II until i figured "hey if that tank has half hp bar, chances are the other healer is going to be throwing at least a cure at them" , so i switched to using Cure I unless it was a high damage phase, at which point i communicate with my co-healer to keep stoneskins up/or they take the healing while i do that.

To me, there are a lot of qualifiers as to what makes me or them "good". I prefer the term capable. The main thing for me is communication. How many times have i swifcast>raise>benediction onto MT , only to realise the other WHM has done the exact same. So, i macroed it up to say who i was raising.

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Originally Posted by EricCartmenez

I always noticed that the tanks would say, "do you want to MT or OT?", but you don't know who is MH and who is OH. Should I be healing the tanks? Should one of us be healing the MT while the other the OT?

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in a static that will be discussed, in a pug you just cant trust anyone and you do your best to cover everything..
coil1&4 are so much easier if you assign heals, but in a lot of fights MT just means "i'll be taking damage pretty much all the time" and OT means "i'll pick up adds and stuff", so the guy assigned to OT healing would spend a lot of time helping with MT whenever they know OT isn't in danger

Why do people only care about recognition? :/ If you completed the content without much struggle, what's the big deal? If the other healer is seriously slacking, bring it to the party's attention and kick them.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Why do people only care about recognition? :/ If you completed the content without much struggle, what's the big deal? If the other healer is seriously slacking, bring it to the party's attention and kick them.

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That's just abuse of the kick system my friend. Sure, it sucks to have someone who's having trouble with whatever you're trying to do, but I'd personally prefer to help them learn/improve.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

That's just abuse of the kick system my friend. Sure, it sucks to have someone who's having trouble with whatever you're trying to do, but I'd personally prefer to help them learn/improve.

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I agree with helping people that don't know the content, but I'm talking about slackers. People who are obviously watching tv or multitasking rl with in-game. Those are the ones that need to be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

Something I found particularly difficult when I first started my 8 mans as WHM was mana management. I would be overusing Cure II until i figured "hey if that tank has half hp bar, chances are the other healer is going to be throwing at least a cure at them" , so i switched to using Cure I unless it was a high damage phase, at which point i communicate with my co-healer to keep stoneskins up/or they take the healing while i do that.

To me, there are a lot of qualifiers as to what makes me or them "good". I prefer the term capable. The main thing for me is communication. How many times have i swifcast>raise>benediction onto MT , only to realise the other WHM has done the exact same. So, i macroed it up to say who i was raising.

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What i find its good if a sch takes tanks and the whm takes the rest of the party. not in all situations im sure but cause i enter as a sch mostly when i know i can handle tanks on my own i do it and i say so. if its a phase with adds the other one will cover of OT other than that tanks are mine.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Why do people only care about recognition? :/ If you completed the content without much struggle, what's the big deal? If the other healer is seriously slacking, bring it to the party's attention and kick them.

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Its a pad in the back for doing a good job. we want people to know that we carried the damn party through the thick of it and survived. Its our proud moments. If you dont feel it its on you but most of us would like to at least get a damn commendation as an apriciation of our competence.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

I agree with helping people that don't know the content, but I'm talking about slackers. People who are obviously watching tv or multitasking rl with in-game. Those are the ones that need to be kicked.

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Prove it. if he is not clearly afking, or offline you run for a kick abuse.

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Originally Posted by Odd

Not necessarily.

I would argue that the one ending with no MP is doing something wrong.

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I would argue that the one with no MP is having more DPS uptime and the other is standing idle.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

in a static that will be discussed, in a pug you just cant trust anyone and you do your best to cover everything..
coil1&4 are so much easier if you assign heals, but in a lot of fights MT just means "i'll be taking damage pretty much all the time" and OT means "i'll pick up adds and stuff", so the guy assigned to OT healing would spend a lot of time helping with MT whenever they know OT isn't in danger

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Yeahhh this is something that shows really clearly in a situation like T1 where you have something that hits damn hard on both tanks. I know the WHM I usually run with has had to take up the slack for undergeared healers (or those that are not paying attention or don't know their skills), keeping me up on MT while simultaneously healing the OT as well. It's pretty stressful for her to have to solo heal in what should be a really easy clear.

A healer is as good as a tank goes, a tank is as good as a healer goes, in between you have knowledge, understanding, experience and gears that come into play.

In short, one without the other is close to impossible to go ahead in any dungeons (healer being any and all that can heal decently)

Just me though

Mei

OP, if you are a very good healer it means most likely you meet healers that are not as good as you are. It might also be you just think you are better than the ones you meet :-), well, if you spend a lot of your time curing and raising the other healer, you are better than him for sure.

About playing as if you were the only healer with PUGs, really you are acting in a situation in which the other healer is already doing things, so you won't cure/raise somebody who does not need it if he has already been cured/raised. The problem is doing the same thing at the same time than the other healer and wasting time and mp. But with no previous coordination that is a risk you take. I agree I wouldn't play expecting the other healer to do this or that, you just adapt to what is happening, the other healer also adapts, and usually it goes well. If you see the other healer is in Cleric Stance and using Holy against a big group of mobs, you don't do that and focus on monitoring the group and heal the ones who need it, the other healer included, for example, or viceversa.

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Originally Posted by Aloreal

What i find its good if a sch takes tanks and the whm takes the rest of the party. not in all situations im sure but cause i enter as a sch mostly when i know i can handle tanks on my own i do it and i say so. if its a phase with adds the other one will cover of OT other than that tanks are mine.

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My SCH buddy and I take a much different approach. We either are both keeping tanks up and party to a certain degree - with him being primary over keeping tanks up and me being primary on raid healing -- OR I will take over most heals while he goes into DPS mode, especially in T8 since that fight is so easy to do it in. His fairy still heals and he can use lustrate while in cleric's. He'll swap for heavy incoming damage phases and swap back afterwards.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

OP, if you are a very good healer it means most likely you meet healers that are not as good as you are. It might also be you just think you are better than the ones you meet :-), well, if you spend a lot of your time curing and raising the other healer, you are better than him for sure.

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I have healed enough to know that there are many high ilvl healers out there who get 'carried' a lot without knowing it, and their partners has to work extra hard to pull things off if other members in the group has so-so average performance, often 'for nothing'.

I want to see whether it's possible to establish a standard to quantify healer performance in raid content, so the good ones get their due credits, and not-so-good ones understand they need improvement, just like we expect dps go above certain number at certain ilvl for each class.

There isn't such a thing as a "healing standard". AFter 7 years of healing in different MMOs I can say - healing is a very subjective kind of thing. One healer lets ppl fall to a certain point before he starts casting anything, an other healer does it earlier and another one casts his spell so early to top of the incoming damage immidiatly.
Healers also do have to have certain knowledge "basics" - the have to know the encounter, where they can stand, have to have everyone in LoS, when to use which spell and/or CD to be effective, have to know what (THEIR) tanks are capable of (e.g. the CDs, what they do etc.)...
My best points are the first 3 - mostly because I use CDs like Benediction rarely and I can't get all the infos about the Tank-CDs in my head. Everything else is reading&understanding. Also: trial&error.

For my experiences, i will use CT:LotA as an example. As a SCH, if I am in a group with another SCH I know I will need to be healing more often, while with a whm I obviously take back seat to the big heals, I heal the small heals and adlo/succor when needed. But i dont sweat my heals unless I see the whm letting tanks get to 50%>. I am the one though that calls for healer roles like on Thantalos or other split group fights in range, such as who looks after pot and who wants the field. When I do this our group runs smoothly and times see other groups pot die due to no one capping the pot. Also during KB i will usually ask do you want to heal, though had one group with an idiot of a tank blast me for asking other healer, you main heal mt or ot? I said "mt or ot" as a healer and our group was IG and KB tanks, a member broadcasts to alliance "omfg dude just asked who mt and ot is after we established it we will wipe". Annoyed me because he miss understood my question. But we end up clearing but anyways. At times if one healer is capping hp of all members efficiently the other healer will look bad but its because he would just being OH for no reason hence looks like he is slacking.

Edit: I also have to agree especially in 4 man groups, tanks and their cooldowns make a huge difference. After running many of a wide spectrum of FloxHM I have had smooth fast runs where the tank used cd's appropriately and I could keep the team alive, I dont get 1 shot glided and my mp pool isnt devastated trying to keep a tank who 1) doesnt wait for buffs and 2) doesnt use cd's or 3 pulls more than the group set up can handle. I have had these kinds of runs... One end smoothno deaths fast speed run where the pug just knew their roles and cd's to groups that wipe before the ramp at entrance due to impatience and not playing job or dodging effectively.

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Originally Posted by Lanceton

... many unskilled healers out there that need carrying from skilled healers...

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Just got an idea, if it is recongnized by HP healed, so will the fight turn into a healing race between healers?
(just like some dpsers use to say "it's dps race" then ignore everything and racing with another dps ^^;
Btw, a skilled healer can carry the whole group and a group can carry an unskilled healer as well?

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

Or that they're severely overhealing.

Healers should have zero problems sustaining their MP assuming no deaths.

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Or that could also be due to the team inability to dodge and/or the dps attacking mobs and grabbing aggro. As for the Op, it's called learning. People should try to help inexperienced players instead of insulting and/or complaining about them.