If DR rewards boil down to myths per hour anyway...

It all boils down to myths per hour. so why not make it this way: Give NO myths (or possibility to queue for DR) at all unless first-timers are present, and when they are present, give 3 myths per minute (time spent not being in a fight, explaining something via chat, or watching c/s does not count, obviously). Problem solved. Yes, the number of myths/solderies and the grinds would need to be rebalanced, but that is mostly technical work. We would be rewarded for what we, as experienced players, are wanted in these dungeons in the first place.

Another idea: First-time players (and only for the very first time they play the dungeon) should decide which player gets how many myths. Making a good impression and making an effort to explain something to new player in a polite tone would be rewarded, rudeness would not.

The basic idea behind this: The rewards make you sort of an SE employee enyway. An experienced player USUALLY does not revisit an old dungeon just for fun, he does it for a salary (myths, in most cases). So why not reward the exact thing that SE (and a comunity striving to be a good one) wants from you/us: being helpful and nice.

EDIT:The myth per minute is not such a good idea, the abuse would be too easy. Instead, the amount of myths should be set for a whole run including time for (forced) c/s, explaining things, and small pulls.

It should NEVER be up to another player to decide how much myth each person gets. Rewards do not make players a SE employee in any way, shape or form.

As for your first idea, that won't solve anything. If it's 3 myth per minute, that just begs for abuse. People 'accidentally" causing wipes so that it takes longer to complete the dungeon, etc etc. Policing done by actual players would absolutely not work. Power corrupts.

I agree with the critique on myths/min, that abuse did not come to my mind when I wrote it. As for the rest, which kind of abuse could one player (who could excercise this right for one time per dungeon anyway) do?

Regarding the "power corrupts": We now have the exact opposite problem. The current system rewards players who kick newbies out of dungeons if they want to watch c/s (see today's Castrum thread for an example), it does not do a thing against rudeness etc. Make the newbie the king, and it could change.

It's absolutely mandatory that the developers of any game look at the consumer/player as a child. I'm not exaggerating at all on that comment, but I'm also not intending it to be offensive. A developer cannot trust the player base (as a whole) to behave accordingly. The proof of that comes from all around. Harassment, griefing, trolls, win-trading, hacking, complaints that someone is watching a cutscene, etc. If a developer actually truly expects the player base to behave like adults (mature and patient), then they're setting themselves up for a reality check rather fast.

That being said, it's a horrible idea to do this. While it may be a rather connecting event (in most cases) to be done between friends, the majority of the player base queues/joins groups solo. Just as you wouldn't want to trust that twitching homeless person with your money, you probably wouldn't want an unknown player controlling your reward.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

That being said, it's a horrible idea to do this. While it may be a rather connecting event (in most cases) to be done between friends, the majority of the player base queues/joins groups solo. Just as you wouldn't want to trust that twitching homeless person with your money, you probably wouldn't want an unknown player controlling your reward.

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Sorry, but these are apples and oranges. IRL I have to deal with customers (in my comparison, they are the newbies...). Some pleasent, some rather unpleasent. Not their problem. I want something (my paycheck at the end of the month, or regarding ff14 the myths), so I need to control myself and behave. So, what is the problem with that?

that's why the commendation thing was added, to bribe people to play nice by offering rewards. you really gotta question what kind of game you're playing when you have to bribe the most sought after reward for the current patch.

then you have to think of how it will be abused, which I don't think you are. simply make an alt for first time completion, get a friend, run the dungeons and award all the extra myth to him, rinse and repeat.

try to remember that MMO dev process goes something along the lines of concept -> abuse -> limitations and restrictions -> punishments -> fun

As for myth per hour, brayflox sr is still better, I think, and with a good team there's far less drama.

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simply make an alt for first time completion, get a friend, run the dungeons and award all the extra myth to him

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Player, not character. I guess if someone really has the energy and money to buy new FF14 copies and/or hack other people's accounts, there is nothing in the world that could stop him.

As for the current situation, do you think SE really anticipated this? Should they really think "Well, let Darwin sort it out" then yes, they are beyond help and I am in the wrong place.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Player, not character. I guess if someone really has the energy and money to buy new FF14 copies and/or hack other people's accounts, there is nothing in the world that could stop him.

As for the current situation, do you think SE really anticipated this? Should they really think "Well, let Darwin sort it out" then yes, they are beyond help and I am in the wrong place.

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In my opinion, SE has done everything they can to put restrictions as well as incentives and be fair. As far as I know, it works in Japan, but NA audience is just greedy and self centered. They've taken all the necessary steps needed to make a great game, but if we don't want to play nice, that's our own problem. More bribery will lead to more abuse and more bad attitudes. Nature of the beast.

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Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

In my opinion, SE has done everything they can to put restrictions as well as incentives and be fair. As far as I know, it works in Japan, but NA audience is just greedy and self centered. They've taken all the necessary steps needed to make a great game, but if we don't want to play nice, that's our own problem. More bribery will lead to more abuse and more bad attitudes. Nature of the beast.

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Couldn't help but agree with this statement concerning some people. You probably shouldn't make a generalization like this on the forums though as most don't act this way in-game...it's gonna get ugly fast so be ready.

As to the OP, it's a really, really bad idea and screams "abuse."

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Power corrupts.

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Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

More bribery will lead to more abuse and more bad attitudes. Nature of the beast.

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Where exactly would that bribery take place? Nobody knows beforehand in which DF queue he will be, so it is quite inprobably the players in the instance know each other. And (not tried this yet) is there even a /tell functionality in instances? If everything is open chat, how could a bribe take place?

But regarding your impression about the NA audience, I have to add the EU one as well (which I am a part of, so forum mods, please do not scream discrimination)

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Problem solved.

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What problem? Don't solve a problem if it doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Where exactly would that bribery take place? Nobody knows beforehand in which DF queue he will be, so it is quite inprobably the players in the instance know each other. And (not tried this yet) is there even a /tell functionality in instances? If everything is open chat, how could a bribe take place?

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Sorry if the word bribery was misleading, or if I reference it in another context. Anything that gives rewards for doing typical stuff, such as commendations, challenge logs, or even changing to myth per hour (which my first thought was speed run to last boss then sit there until the last 5 or 10 minutes of the duty run), is a form of bribery in my book. SE is trying to force - sorry, ENCOURAGE - people to "be nice" or "play this content" by offering a bribe ... er, I mean increased reward, for something that should be done as normal common practice.

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Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

mAnything that gives rewards for doing typical stuff, such as commendations, challenge logs, or even changing to myth per hour (which my first thought was speed run to last boss then sit there until the last 5 or 10 minutes of the duty run), is a form of bribery in my book. SE is trying to force people to "be nice" or "play this content" by offering a bribe ... er, I mean increased reward, for something that should be done as normal common practice.

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I agree, but it is the only thing that seems to work (at least to a certain degree - the prospect of empty dungeons or endless queue time seems realistic) - so if the bribe is necessary, it should reward friendly behaviour, which (IMHO) it fails to do at the moment.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

First-time players (and only for the very first time they play the dungeon) should decide which player gets how many myths. Making a good impression and making an effort to explain something to new player in a polite tone would be rewarded

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This is the worst idea ever.
Considering most of times i run the low level roulette and explains mechanics to 1st timers, it is not even certain to guarantee me commendation(s) even when all 3 players are first timers.
Some people aint even fussed about giving commendation(s) even when you've been nice and helpful to them or simply don't know how.

Relying on this system to get myth would be even worse for the same reasons and the DR would be deserted.

1st timers will then never get their dungeon done, because theyre either too bad to complete it due the lack of knowledge in dungeon mechanics or because not enough people are queuing for it via roulette and thus filling groups of 1st timers.


Really this would only bring problems.

Hey points to the OP for trying to think of a new system. Not that it's perfect.

The more open the options for players to get tokens for Casual and Casual-to-Hardcore content are the less players will get burned out on speed runs and stuff like that.

At least thats my belief.

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

This is the worst idea ever.
Considering most of times i run the low level roulette and explains mechanics to 1st timers, it is not even certain to guarantee me commendation(s) even when all 3 players are first timers.
Some people aint even fussed about giving commendation(s) even when you've been nice and helpful to them or simply don't know how.

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This is because the technical implementation of commendations, as of now, is stupid (the window does not even pop up automatically...). Open it automatically, and distribute equally if the player really does not want to decide.

I also do not get commendations every single time, but esp. with Castrum, my average "success rate" when doing explaining is roughly 75% or better (when success is defined at least 2 commendations - you can never see where they came from). This is definitely a higher success rate than the times I am quiet.

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Originally Posted by CUTS3R

This is the worst idea ever.
Considering most of times i run the low level roulette and explains mechanics to 1st timers, it is not even certain to guarantee me commendation(s) even when all 3 players are first timers.
Some people aint even fussed about giving commendation(s) even when you've been nice and helpful to them or simply don't know how.

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Not to mention DPS would never get any myth.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

Not to mention DPS would never get any myth.

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I am a DPS and I get commendations regularly.

I do get commendations on monk, but not nearly as fast as when I am playing my healer or tank. Most runs I don't get any, and the only time I get more than 1 commendation on my monk is if I explain the fight to new players or if something goes wrong and I save the party (Monk Tank Titan HM ftw!). Even doing things like Keeping ADS silenced isn't enough to get noticed.

As a healer I will routinely get multiple commendations just for showing up.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Sorry, but these are apples and oranges. IRL I have to deal with customers (in my comparison, they are the newbies...). Some pleasent, some rather unpleasent. Not their problem. I want something (my paycheck at the end of the month, or regarding ff14 the myths), so I need to control myself and behave. So, what is the problem with that?

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For an IRL situation, that would mean that you're the one in control. You're aware of what you need to do to get paid, and the employer is bound by law to pay you for the job you do. They are not allowed to withhold your money or not pay you unless very specific circumstances can be proven that show you do not deserve payment (false timesheet information, etc). What you propose in terms of the reward/payment is that it's not the employer that determines your pay, it's the customer.

Imagine if you wanted to have the customer (the first time player) fill out a form to determine your level of pay (deciding on a window how much myth the party members might get). How often do you think these people would be willing to do a survey? How often do you think they'll actually take the time to do it and not just leave abruptly (or possibly DC at the end of a run)? How often do you think it'll be done fairly and with some considerate thought put into it? (this is a video game afterall, the popular train of thought is that there's no need to take it seriously... despite having spent/wasted an hour of parties free time helping if they just up and leave). How would you feel if, by the end of the day, maybe one or two people actually decided to pay you, but only a few dollars worth of your time?

You can't rely on people to follow systematic rules unless it is forced on them or there are negative consequences for them if they don't. But it being that way would be detrimental to the enjoyment of the game for many people. "I'm not paying a subscription to fill out a questionaire!" It'd be a decent idea to throw in that commendations also give you a small bonus of myth (maybe 5 or so), but not that you get none at all. As someone else pointed out, kudos on thinking a little about player humility, but there's just way too much wrong with the idea. There's always going to be "unforeseen" (but absolutely predictable, psychologically) problems when you rely on the players to be responsible for themselves, and especially others.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Give NO myths (or possibility to queue for DR) at all unless first-timers are present, and when they are present, give 3 myths per minute (time spent not being in a fight, explaining something via chat, or watching c/s does not count, obviously). Problem solved

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There is a terrible design error:

- Myth only if there is a first-timer: How often do you encounter a first timer in a lv50 dungeon? 1 out of 10? 1 out of 20? I'll be laughing my ass off at all the DPS who spent 30mins in queue just to notice they will get no reward at all, again and again and again...

- Myth only for DR queues: Yes, this could work. But most people already queue for DR and use PF for Brayflow runs. There are people out there who need a specific dungeon for their relic, and it will only screw them.

- Myth / time: This is the worst idea ever, sorry. One could pull all mobs and aoe them, which would be quick but not rewarding, or just pull a small group, kill all but 1 and let this one life as long as possible. People undergearing on purpose, equipping the lowest possible weapon and only use auto attack. Who needs to kill bosses when you can get tons of myths for doing nothing at all.

So the one that decides which player performed the best is the new guy that doesn't even know the mechanics of the dungeon? When I was new I had no idea which in the party deserved a thumbs up since I didn't know wth was going on most of the times.

The only thing a new player can notice is which is going to kiss his *** more for those myths. It will make for a pathetic showing of let me love you scenarios and I can't do that. Is forced and fake.

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Originally Posted by Edli

The only thing a new player can notice is which is going to kiss his *** more for those myths. It will make for a pathetic showing of let me love you scenarios and I can't do that. Is forced and fake.

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Being friendly and explaining mechanics to the new guys is "kiss his ***"?

I'm sorry but this is a worse idea than a "jump to conclusion" mat. I just see Samir saying "yes, horrible, this idea".

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

Being friendly and explaining mechanics to the new guys is "kiss his ***"?

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That is going to happen a lot. Forced creepy smiles and laughing at every joke the new guy does. Is like running a dungeon with Kim Jong Un.

There are plenty of people that are helpful without a reward. You put a reward to it and you make it awkward. Is like in real life, plenty of good and horrible people around. As time goes on you'll eventually end up making friends and playing with the ones that you feel comfortable with.

A horrible person will be the same no matter what. He will put a mask once in a while and after the dungeon ends he'll send you a PM cursing you left and right for not seeing how good spirited he was. There are people that will do everything to get some myth and they will harass the player that didn't give them the reward. That is one of the reasons you don't give that power to a player, that's unnecessary responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

For an IRL situation, that would mean that you're the one in control. You're aware of what you need to do to get paid, and the employer is bound by law to pay you for the job you do. They are not allowed to withhold your money or not pay you unless very specific circumstances can be proven that show you do not deserve payment (false timesheet information, etc). What you propose in terms of the reward/payment is that it's not the employer that determines your pay, it's the customer.

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One of the very specific reasons would be me being rude towards a customer. And that is ok. For the other direction, there are limits for what a customer may do, so a thing I, of course, do not have to accept is being called names. (This is more or less the same thing that the ToS already have in place now).

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Imagine if you wanted to have the customer (the first time player) fill out a form to determine your level of pay (deciding on a window how much myth the party members might get). How often do you think these people would be willing to do a survey? How often do you think they'll actually take the time to do it and not just leave abruptly (or possibly DC at the end of a run)?

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If they really do not want to respond, just distribute myth equally. If 5 players were trying their best to help and 2 players were rude, I think new players will be more than willing to respond.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

How would you feel if, by the end of the day, maybe one or two people actually decided to pay you, but only a few dollars worth of your time?

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Would not happen the way described above. And if the absolute number of myths distributed is a concern, there could be a total sum for the dungeon (e.g. castrum - 700 myths) that are either distributed equally (100 for each experienced player in case of one newbie) or, if the new player is specifically satisfied / dissatisfied with the way he was treated - unequally.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

There's always going to be "unforeseen" (but absolutely predictable, psychologically) problems when you rely on the players to be responsible for themselves, and especially others.

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Absolutely agree, I see this mess every day in DR. So I am discussing (and refining my idea) of an alternative system that would address these problems.

How about extra myth reward if you finish the whole dungeon in 17 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Edli

There are plenty of people that are helpful without a reward. You put a reward to it and you make it awkward.

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We are already there:
- [Presumed] Intention of DR: Give myths to other players so they play old content together with new players
- Unintended consequence: They play old content, but ignore newbies (if they are lucky) or abuse them (frequently, given the number of threads on the forums).

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A horrible person will be the same no matter what. He will put a mask once in a while and after the dungeon ends he'll send you a PM cursing you left and right for not seeing how good spirited he was.

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No difference to status quo - report it, and GMs will be happy to show the way to the door.

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Originally Posted by stupiddog

No difference to status quo

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Currently a new player is not in charge of the rewards another player gets. After each dungeon run the newbie will make one person happy and 2 or 3 angry at him. Over time that accumulates and here you have this new guy in the end with a bunch of people in the server that will have not much respect for him. All he wanted to do is run some dungeons peacefully but you gave him a responsibility that is almost equal to a FC leader. Especially bad when you give that responsibility to a new player that is just trying to learn about the game and possibly make some friends. A person that is in charge of who gets what will always make enemies.

I "saved" many times a run by explaining the mechanics and healing through terrible play without even complaining and got no commendation to show for all the trouble.
Helping new players is nice and all but if you spend 3h to get through some easy dungeon because this one new player is very bad and get absolutely nothing out of it, you'd rather spend your time doing something else.

Wow so you want people to AFK in Dungeon all day long, take the longest time to grind for Myth? No Thanks, grinding myth is already boring enough even with SR, don't need to take any longer.

This has to be a troll post.