I have great concerns for the addition of new classes to the game when it comes to semi support/DPS jobs.
Jobs give 2 things to the class that bring it into an end game role. The job soul, gives a stat boost to all stats of +10. The second thing is the abilities that make up its identity. For instance, Monk gives Pugilist many weapon skills needed in order to properly play the class for it's rotations.
The issue with Bard, is that the abilities that Bard gains from the job are all songs except for 1 aoe weapon skill. They are not needed to play the class/job in a DPS role. They are only needed for it in a support role. As new classes come into the game, more cross-class skills become available. While Bard will not benefit from this. the class Archer will benefit from selecting 10 of the best cross class skills from all classes.
So even with the loss of the attributes gained from the Job Soul, Archer may be found to be better then other jobs.
I feel that Archer should get another job added that is a more strict DPS role, perhaps that specializes more in the AoE aspect. This also goes for any other class that has a support dps job. It should also get a dps job as well.
New Classes and Bard, the need for a second job.
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06-10-2014, 06:31 PMFirespedNew Classes and Bard, the need for a second job.
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06-10-2014, 06:39 PMNalien
When the existing Classes get secondary Jobs, they better make it a more profound difference than Summoner/Scholar. I made an example of Archer and Conjurer in Beta, effectively they should take some of the base Classes abilities, and make them differ depending on the Job, which effectively acts as a role switch with 2 Jobs.
So, Archer could go to Bard and Ranger. In place of Swiftsong, Ranger gets a DPS focuses ability. In place of something like Strait Shot, Bard could get a combo off Heavy Shot which restores MP. Working it like that, Ranger is a ranged DPS, and Bard can become a more pure support Job, lack of MP recovery and Songs is the only reason I feel Bard is more DPS than support currently. It could turn some of Archers abilities into additional Songs or means to recover MP to continue keeping Songs up. For Conjurer, Cure, Cure II and Cure III could all be replaced with Water if the second Job is Geomancer.
I guess the precedent is already there with Summoner and Scholar, since Summon and Summon II differ already, but that's no where near on the scale of what I suggested. Would be nice if they did something like this to make Jobs much more supporty... -
06-10-2014, 06:49 PMSurian
They simply shouldnt make "jobs" be upgrades, more side-grades. Giving the job crystal a Stat+10 boost was the most terrible thing they could have done... :/
Why couldnt Gladiator for instance be a full fledged job? I remember loving it in Tactics. Yet in XIV it's demoted to simply being a requirement for Paladin, not suitable or used in any other way.
Archer too could have been great. Yet classes stop getting abilities past level 30. They could have easily let those be "replaced" by the job abilities.
They brag everywhere that they have 17 diffirent combat disciplines to play. Yet out of those 17, only 9 actually get used. That's just a massive waste of time, effort and potential... -
06-10-2014, 06:57 PMNuinnDear Carbuncle, I'm so happy that I got you :3 Now, learn to savor the time we spend together cause soon I shall go down the path of either Summoner or Scholar and you SHALL FOREVER ROT IN OBLIVION NEVER TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AGAIN!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
<thuder storm sound effects> -
06-10-2014, 06:59 PMNalienWhat? Classes get abilities all the way to 50... Jobs only add an extra 5 (and take away 5 sub skills). Classes are meant to be more dynamic, which is something new Classes should improve. Something like Marauder is already a great example of this though, more so in PvP, Warrior is absolute trash there compared to Marauder, though if Marauder gets a second, pure DPS Job, that'll change. Then again, if they go with Marauder > Dark Knight, maybe not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
I actually like how Classes become redundant with Jobs though, it reminds me of Final Fantasy; you never got to use Black Mage again after you upgraded to Black Wizard. They've definitely dropped the ball on "Classes are for solo" concept though, really can't see more sub class skills actually fixing that much either. If they were serious about it, they could have forced it by making it so Job Crystals only get equipped when entering a party, though with reseting skills and gear options, that would frankly be annoying. -
06-10-2014, 07:13 PMGormogon
Thing about bard is that it's meant to be more of a support role than it is meant to be a DPS one. A lot of Bards don't play songs at all to help their team because they are too concern about their own damage to help manage their parties resources. Which is why I always feel grateful to join a good bards party or when they join a party I'm in. Also I do try and do all that micromanage of resource for my team when I leveled my bard.
I know some bards just want to go crazy with their numbers but Bard is not that kind of job. They did mention 2nd Jobs for classes and it's most likely that Archers second job will be more DPS oriented but for now we don't really know how they will address it. -
06-10-2014, 07:21 PMShurrikhanClass viability would probably only need traits that are more alike to mechanics (Freecure, River of Blood, etc.) and the ability to cross-trait another trait or two as a class. That said, that would require that more than a couple classes have unique mechanics outside of their default spells...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
...which may be for the better, but is generally a pain to rebalance.
Even if these mechanics weren't worked in, the abilities will still be incredibly dull, but at least a Lancer could have reason to use Archer abilities at a 18s Venomous Bite and 20s Straight Shot, or the 2-min CD Raging Strikes, or a Pugilist the trait-enhanced 30-second Fracture. That said, an Archer could probably rip things to shreds with a 30% Internal Release, for better or worse...
(I also wouldn't mind seeing Skullsplitter and Savage Blade having a starting potency of around 130 to 150, as to be viable for DRG and Monk snap-tanking, being able to combo from each other, in case one wanted, for whatever silly reason, to be able to use two non-delayed high-enmity moves in a row (as opposed to the delayed RoH and BB), or even become a possible 4-combo at higher average TP cost per enmity (TP cost increase during such a combo... but whatever.) -
06-10-2014, 07:35 PMShurrikhanI think the only major concern here is whether the two jobs can feel distinct when varied only by 5 abilities and will most likely sharing the same role. (Our remaining classes are unlikely to shift role, as they will either be bogged down with too many conflicting CDs (tanks), or are dependent on offensive cast upkeep for any unique advantage (BLM if it were to ever become a healer); many dps are also just too lightly armored to become tanks, leaving this possibility only to LCRs and PGLs, unless ARC were to suddenly pick up a pet aspect for potential tanking, which would still leave it short of the dps afforded to 'pure' dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
Just as an example, even with Lustrate, Leeches, Sacred Soil, Adloquiem, Succor, Whispering Dawn, and Fey Covenant are all strong healer abilities, Scholar still remains a healer only because and according to the frequency by which it stops using its dps abilities. (Of course, the same would likely be said of any dps class stemming from Conjurer, and I would probably have the same faint disappointment there too.) And without the pet mechanic that helps to differ Scholar and Summoner, other classes will be truly limited to the 5 job abilities given, rather than Scholar's unique 9 and Summoner's pseudo-unique 14.
It doesn't help that the jobs aren't even trait-differentiable, either. The closest we get to unique 'mechanics' is in the priorities given by abilities (i.e. Fester), any unique niche granted (Scholar healing-to-shielding), and in the text of toggleables like Defiance. Outside of the last, any job-unique triggers, conditions, counters, tokens, stacks, etc. are impossible to distribute in the current system. -
06-10-2014, 08:00 PMxenosuke1
i dont care what classes they add, all i want is Dancer, was my fav class from ff tactics
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06-10-2014, 08:06 PMNalienHonestly, the only one I can realistically see working, is Marauder => Dark Knight (Thaumaturge sub with access to Fire/Blizzard). First ability just needs to be "Increases damage taken X%, magic damage proportional to enmity level, magic attacks shed enmity.", then it works perfectly well with Marauders enmity related abilities and creates a viable system to cast nukes (something lacking in XI). Build up enmity, nuke. Use Storm's Path combo, Foresight, ToB, pull hate and do an absolutely devastating magic attack (presumably with its version of Flare/Holy).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Pugilist => Counter based tank could work I guess, since unlike Lancer its combos aren't dependent on direction, but everything else just wouldn't work. Bard doesn't have enough of a focus on Songs to make a Ranger type Job seem different since they'd both ultimately be DPS. Gladiator has far too many defensive abilities for anything but a tank to really work, likewise Conjurer has far too much healing spells. Thaumaturge basically is Black Mage, there isn't really anything else Thaumaturge can do, at best it could enfeeble, but that would work as well as Bard does.
Given how secondary Jobs is actually something the developers have mentioned so much, I'd really love to hear from them as to how they'd actually go about it. If they plan anything like what I suggested earlier, that could make for an amazing Jobs adjustment patch. It could even make for Classes becoming more useful, strip Bard of Strait Shot, Raging Strikes, Misery's End, and Barrage (MP combo, Song, Song, same effect but for Songs instead of auto-attack) and you're not going to solo anything on that, not that you would on Bard already...
You know, maybe they could make Classes more useful by just nerfing Jobs base stats... We get a stats bonus when we're in a party, why not just nerf Jobs stats and buff that bonus substantially? On a non-tank Job without a tank in party? Enjoy getting two shotted. Would certainly do the job, but I don't think that would be a popular adjustment... -
06-10-2014, 08:19 PMGrizzlebeardThey could go Pug+Cnj and go down the Dancer route with it focussed on TP driven melee-heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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06-10-2014, 08:20 PMErana
Btw it has been said by Yoshi and SE that secondary jobs could have their skillsets changed to suit the new Job. So a Dark Knight stemming from gladiator wouldn't necessarily have the same enmity combos.
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06-10-2014, 08:29 PMGormogonMoba can do it with 2 or less abilities despite some abilities being considered clones to another characters kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Personally it's all about visual presentation and representation. As long as visually there's a difference and kit added will flow in smoothly to define it. From my point of view the difference between Class and Job can easily be defined through a simple representation of that change.
As an example aside from AF gear.
Archer to Bard = Songs
Arcanist to Scholar = Faerie
Arcanist to Summoner = Egi
Conjurer to White Mage = Holy
Gladiator to Paladin = Shield Oath + Hollowed Ground
Lancer to Dragoon = Jump
Marauder to Warrior = Defiance + Steel Cyclone
Pugilist to Monk = DragonKick
Thaumaturge to Black Mage = Flare
So if Archer gets a 2nd job to be more DPS oriented while the options are limited it will stand out based on that presentation. Yet I don't know how they'll address it or what they have planned. My assumption on the matter will be through the following. Will it have that damage ability from past Final Fantasy titles that will define Archer's 2nd job such as Sidewinder or Ultima Shot? Will the 2nd Archer job turn into pet dps job using animals such as a hawk, bear, etc? Will it still use the design principle of having Archer have some sort of management role for the party and give it access to traps?
Though I don't know. The possibilities are there but in the end Square-Enix will be the one to make that call.
I agree on the part regarding traits and I have no idea how that can be addressed. -
06-10-2014, 08:45 PMSionDurant
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My hope is that Dark Knight and Red Mage simply are built together as an entirely new class, based off of the Ishgardian storylines.
Inquisitor - A mystic warrior of the Holy See, charged with rooting out heretics within the Ishgardian order.
Dark Knight - An inquisitor who has resorted to the power of the void to subdue the perils that face Ishgard. Considered an outcast among his peers.
Red Mage - A devoted Ishgardian spellblade, learned in both the ways of black magic and white. -
06-11-2014, 12:40 AMLineageRazorI wouldn't worry about gear being a concern. SCH has already shown that SE's willing to kit jobs out in gear unwearable by their base class or by other jobs from that class. As an example, say that PGL gets a new tanking job - let's call it Templar. TMP gets access to the same tanking gear normally exclusive to PLD and WAR, as well as Job Abilities focused on Enmity and Damage Mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Folks shouldn't get too hung-up on class abilities that seem incompatible with job rolls. I adore the suggestions folks have made about Dark Knight having damage based on Enmity, allowing them to use MRD or GLD enmity combos (depending on which class was the base for DRK) to pump up their damage potential, then using job abilities to shed that Enmity if it starts to get out of control. It would be a tightrope very fitting with the classic Final Fantasy motif of the Dark Knight drawing upon dangerous and harmful powers to defeat opponents.
Even seemingly irreconcilable class dependencies like THM's dependence on Astral Fire and Umbral Ice can be overcome if you're clever about it. Let's say that THM gains a healing class Sage. SGE gains a healing spell called Radiance which adds stacks of Astral Fire (as well as potency and mp cost), and Stasis which applies damage mitigation of some kind (perhaps Stoneskin, or a 30% damage reduction) while adding Umbral Ice. SGE would need to balance MP management (during which they can't really cure effectively, but can still reduce damage taken) with curing phases. While there's a lot of work to be done to make this workable, I think it demonstrates that THM isn't necessarily locked into DD by its mechanics. -
06-11-2014, 03:04 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard
I'm by no means saying that these things aren't doable. All I'm saying is that the current system, which allows no ability renames, reworks, or general mechanical changes upon job-equip, forces us to be 'clever' about it to the point of being gimmicky. Just like your Sage example, you could easily take the THM set and create a shamanistic healer that bounces between the aspect of 'living flame' (or 'heartfire' / 'hearthfire' / whatever) and 'weathered soul' ('chill calm', 'cold embrace', etc.) as with the AF and UI mechanics. It could move between restorative, building heals (AF / LF) and compromising buffs that build up usable resource with time (UI / WS). Or, again, your Radiance / Stasis system on Sage, or whatever else. It just feels strange to not then have Fire I, II, and III, etc., renamed and re-tooltip-ed to their respective uses when that job crystal is equipped to make the job feel real. Such would be a change that both is, and is not, huge, allowing for more of a job aspect without losing the ability structure of the base class. I hope such will be implemented, or at least considered, with time.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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06-11-2014, 03:10 PMShurrikhanCould I have a link for this bit of news?Quote:
Originally Posted by Erana
(I'm not doubting it; it's just an important issue to me, and I'd like to see the full bit.) -
06-11-2014, 03:25 PMEnepttasticHoly crap...I freaking love this idea. Seriously, love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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06-11-2014, 04:04 PMruskie
As for tanking... ARC/BRD would be viable as a dex based dodge style tank - damage avoidance vs mitigation. I've done OT duties often on BRD(green add in garuda hm, iron giants in CT behe fight, I also have featherfoot and keen flurry, love it when titan hm tries to swipe(after MT dies) at me and there's dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge on the screen, MTed sastasha as arc(with that level of gear - first time I went into sastasha in beta with 3 dsp and a healer hehe).
Potential is there. As a WHM though I see most DRG/LNC dying a lot - even great ones that focus DRG for raids(and that's before I count blood for blood). -
06-11-2014, 04:34 PMEnepttasticWell, considering how one acted when I chastised him for pulling groups as a DPS in a DF run I was tanking, this response may explain it:Quote:
Originally Posted by ruskie
He learned after the healer and I let him die a couple of times, that or he left and we got a sane DPS. Can't remember now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Some idiot DRG
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06-11-2014, 07:35 PMShurrikhanI could definitely go for these, though I have to say the obvious wherein PGL is more positionally dependent than LCR. (LCR = 13.5 seconds' crucial positional dependence per minute; PGL = 55 seconds' non-crucial positional dependence per minute.) I really do like the idea of consuming enmity for bonus attack on DRK. I've seen some other suggestions taking it from LCR, due largely to BFB, and others using GLD where all of the defensive CDs are halved and turned into enemy offensives, as well, just as an aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
If we are limited to two jobs per class though, I don't know if I want a DRK or Berserker coming from Marauder more though...
In reference to the bard ability-changeout example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I'd still like to see some general job strength retained, personally. I don't think a job should become limited to a party role. They certainly shouldn't lose out on core class buffs or rotational factors just because they fall to support later (even if it would be returned to them in their support forms). I just think that it should be a specific, side-grade style of the class, which tends to better lend itself to party play, especially larger parties (8-mans, where your party's jobs already cover all forms of debuffs, etc.).
I feel like at the moment the stat bonus is the only thing that makes most jobs worthwhile at level 30, and often until level 40 or so. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced and base stats increased.
As to the general job style... I'm still a fan of retooling as many of the abilities as needed, as long as they follow a similar structure of abilities (3 basics on one side--ST, AoE, big ST, 3 basics on the opposite--ST slow, casterAoE bind, AoE bind, 3 DoTs that vary by duration, etc. as a THM example). You should still feel like you came out of the same class, even if your Fire spells are now compounding direct-HoT-hybrid spells and your Cure spells are Banishes.
Side-note: I really love when a job is able to perform two roles each near-fully, but not simultaneously, i.e. Bard's dps and support. The more it supports, the less dps it deals, but the more party-dps it causes, such that the net gain often, but not always, outweighs the personal loss. When you kill that 'not always' part, wasting mana on unnecessary songs not included, it reduces the interest of the support function itself, for me anyways. I feel like it should come with a compromise.
That's partly just by having gotten used to Bard though. For an opposite example, one could probably just use a mechanic on Bard that creates some sort of resource (a mote, or otherwise floating song-like / element-like thing) with actions, and can consume them for support functions with actions, such that support is less of a compromise (though singing would still be about timely resource management) so much as something they do naturally, with all actions. (Consume motes somehow related to Foe Requiem to instant-cast Foe Requiem (no immediate effect), unlock Mercy's End regardless of target health level, and cause those motes to create the Foe Requiem debuff for X duration on the target struck by that Mercy's End.) -
06-12-2014, 02:45 AMMartaDemireuxPlease look at it this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
Each of the classes are simply groupings of a certain weapon or attacking style. Gladiator in the original Japanese text is literally "Sword skill user," Archer is "Bow skill user," Marauder is "Axe skill user," Lancer is "Spear skill user," Pugilist is "Wrestling/Grappling user," Thaumaturge is "Spell skill user," Conjurer is "Illusion skill user," Arcanist is "Tomoe skill user," and the newest class to the group, Rogue, is "Twinblade user." Yes PGL/ROG drop the "skill" kanji in order to preserve only using 3 kanji per class, one of them must be the "user/worker" kanji at the end.
To make these into English names they would be Swordist, Bowist, Axist, Spearist, Wrestler, Spellist, Illusionist, Tomoeist and Twinbladist. Those don't exactly roll off the tongue. The localization team had to come up with names for each of these skill sets and now we have what we have. Note how I called them skill sets there and not classes.
Essentially, a class is only a means to fuel a job and at the same time a job is, in the case of ACN for example, a specialized skill tree.
By leveling up Gladiator you're really not leveling up a standalone class/job but rather accruing skills to use from that weapon type/damage source. This was much more easy to understand in 1.0 before jobs came out as essentially you could swap every single skill between every single class. The idea was to level a class for the abilities you wanted and then use the abilities you wanted with your preferred weapon type. When they brought in jobs though they kept this relic and its new hindering ways.
So when you see Gladiator just know you are not really playing a standalone class/job but you are instead using that weapon type to fuel your strength in your specialized job. You're literally training yourself in that weapon, not that class. -
06-12-2014, 03:41 AMEranaFinally found that interview between 1UP and Yoshi P. Hope it helps everybody here. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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1UP: Okay, let's move onto the job system. Because each class can only become one job at the moment, people can't really see a big picture for the job system. Also, in the most recent update, you added class-only gear, and that only confused the matter more. People are wondering, "So am I supposed to use a job, or am I supposed to use a class?" How can we expect to see the job system to change in the future?
NY: First thing is that, currently, it's one class and it turns into one job. But the way that we designed the system is that this won't always be the case. It just happens to currently be the case.
For example - and this does not mean that this is going to happen - but for example, right now the gladiator will change his job to a Paladin. But maybe in the future a gladiator will also be able to change to Dark Knight. Again, this is a maybe... Not saying anything about Dark Knights. But maybe. Just so the players know that, just because there's only one job per class right now doesn't mean this won't change. The way we've designed the system is to allow for multiple jobs to come off of a single class.
As for the concept behind class-only gear, we hope to have, in the future, especially with 2.0, a larger variety of content, where you'll have very hardcore... You'll have your eight-man raids that are requiring a lot of strategy, and you'll want to have specific jobs to be able to concentrate on getting to and defeating the final boss. Yes, we'll want to concentrate on the jobs. But we'll also want to have more light, casual battle content in the future as well. And during this casual content, you'll want to be more... Maybe not as restricted to the job. You'll want to be able to have the benefits of being a class and using multiple abilities from lots of different classes. And so there isn't one argument, there isn't one right answer, that just because there's class gear... There are going to be some places where you'll want to have class gear and there will be some places you'll want to have job gear. We hope that by 2.0, there will be more content that will support both. Because currently, right now, there's really not a lot of content that's supporting that class-only gear. Hopefully it will become more defined in 2.0.
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06-12-2014, 07:42 AMShurrikhanThank you for the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erana
I just hope this concept (of multiple, rather than just two jobs per class, and class (rather than just job) value) is still in the works, since this interview was apparently made before the release of ARR (2.0 is still a future referent). -
06-12-2014, 07:58 AMShurrikhanAhh, back when one's own class was just a matter of finding the mixture of counters, defenses, nukes, DoTs, debuffs, or whatever else suited your play, stats, and damage type (piercing, blunt, etc.)... or at least when that was the concept...Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
That said, even if mere weapon training was the original purpose of each "class", they have been granted specific identities beyond their weapons. Our "Swordsman" is not so much as a swordsman in general as a specific type of sword-and-shield infantry with hardy defense, and our axeman has specialized in overwhelming attacks, debuffs, and bloodthirst. In this sense, as irrelevant as such matters are, the localized versions largely seem more accurate. (Though now the actual implementation of Thaumaturge/Curse-user matches neither name.) As long as each "class" carries particular mechanics and buffs beyond the weapon itself, they no longer act in accordance to that system of <Weapons --> Specialized fitting use of weapons to accomplish an archetypal role>. They are real classes, even if being a class, rather than having the identity befitting titles of Gladiator or Marauder, means that you're basically just a blank slate with some connected abilities and access to quite a few more.