A Warrior's Guide to Paladin - Contrast/Comparison of Abilities

pending deletion.

And here's hoping I don't get yelled at for posting.

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Originally Posted by Steady

Notes -

Paladin seems to perform best on single target with defending against spikes of mostly predictable damage

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I disagree completely with this statement. Paladins are best when there is a sustained high level of incoming dps, while warriors are superior with predictable spikes. It's for this reason that Warriors are often preferred as the main tank on twintania. Because they will ALWAYS have a cooldown (Innerbeast) prepared for deathsentence while over the course of a fight. Paladins will eventually run out of cooldowns.

Paladins are better MT for situations such as snake in turn 1 or 2x dread in Turn 4.

Hmm. I main War, and find timing Inner Beast for Death Sentence more challenging than simply using tools off the global cool down on Paladin. But to each their own. I generally find the GCD can work against ya on abilities like that, because they aren't instantaneous. If your cycling through refreshing the ability, it may be too late to get off "Inner beast" However, Sentinel/Rampart/etc are single button pushes that ignore global cooldown.

Though when tanking Ifrit Ex, who does pretty consistent damage, I prefer Warrior. I appreciate your opinion, maybe it's my playstyle that leans me to disagree.

For Death Sentence, try using Fracture in between every Death Sentence. Death Sentence is roughly once every 30 seconds, and Fracture lasts 30 seconds. You should be able to easily build 5 stacks of Wrath in that time, and you can Inner Beast for Death Sentence. You'll see it's a world of difference, I've never had trouble timing Inner Beast up against Death Sentence.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

For Death Sentence, try using Fracture in between every Death Sentence. Death Sentence is roughly once every 30 seconds, and Fracture lasts 30 seconds. You should be able to easily build 5 stacks of Wrath in that time, and you can Inner Beast for Death Sentence. You'll see it's a world of difference, I've never had trouble timing Inner Beast up against Death Sentence.

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I'll hafta try that tip. Though in terms of "ease" activating an ability off global cooldown requires no additional effort/timing, and Paladin simply has more off the GCD. Anyhow, just one man's opinion. I love War, there's only a handful of situations I Paladin, and usually just when a stun-lock is desired.

You just have to learn the mechanics of the fight a little better. Once you do DS is VERY easy to predict. If you worried about missing the IB you can always stop your rotation a few seconds before DS.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

You just have to learn the mechanics of the fight a little better.

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WAR has to learn the fights a helluva lot more than PLD does because their abilities require better timing and more consideration of side effects/opportunity costs (when to use Berserk, when to use IB, whether you should use Overpower or SC).

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Originally Posted by Steady

Hmm. I main War, and find timing Inner Beast for Death Sentence more challenging than simply using tools off the global cool down on Paladin. But to each their own. I generally find the GCD can work against ya on abilities like that, because they aren't instantaneous. If your cycling through refreshing the ability, it may be too late to get off "Inner beast" However, Sentinel/Rampart/etc are single button pushes that ignore global cooldown.

Though when tanking Ifrit Ex, who does pretty consistent damage, I prefer Warrior. I appreciate your opinion, maybe it's my playstyle that leans me to disagree.

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And this ist the main difference. Warrior is more challenging to play than Paladin.

Btw you have some errors there:
Maim is +20% dmg and Storm's Path is stronger than Rage of Halone (there is absolutely no problem in keeping it up).

Edit:
Comparing Sword Oath to Unchained is also pretty strange.

Edit 2:
And since when does Shield Oath give 30% DR? Did i miss something?

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Originally Posted by Alphras

And this ist the main difference. Warrior is more challenging to play than Paladin.

Btw you have some errors there:
Maim is +20% dmg and Storm's Path is stronger than Rage of Halone (there is absolutely no problem in keeping it up).

Edit:
Comparing Sword Oath to Unchained is also pretty strange.

Edit 2:
And since when does Shield Oath give 30% DR? Did i miss something?

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Edited. I was pulling some stats off an outdated website as reference. Think it still stated featherfoot as adding to wind damage, or something :P.

Rage of Halone requires no additional effort or detour in terms of combos and it generates enmity while Storm's Path does not. I suppose I see that pro/cons evening out on that one.

As for Sword Oath, Warrior's answer is simply not using Defiance. I was trying to match abilities up with their mirrors and maybe got too caught up in that. I should have listed them as unique.

** This Post was more an attempt to describe the similarities between the two classes, as nearly every ability has a mirror of itself between the two.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

WAR has to learn the fights a helluva lot more than PLD does because their abilities require better timing and more consideration of side effects/opportunity costs (when to use Berserk, when to use IB, whether you should use Overpower or SC).

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My point wasn't to say that one job was better at the other. Without stepping on anyone's toes.... Isn't the fact that more is required of the player an indicator that one handles some situations easier than the other make it valid? Using "fracture" as timing, or staring at the clock to time Inner Beast sounds viable and very useful. I love playing warrior, tanked pretty much all content with it... but me loving warrior doesn't make it less true that some things easier on paladin. Likewise some things are easier on Warrior. And some things, are pretty much the same.

This post was primarily for a FC mate who remarked that Paladin > Warrior. I tried to explain how similar they were, and also how there's really only niche situations where Paladin outperforms, but equally situations where Warrior does. Was trying to state the case that they are equivalent but different.

Thats fine and all, but you should get your numbers right :P. Vengeance is on a 120s recast timer for example.

Use sites like http://xivdb.com/ and http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/FF14_Wiki for reference. They are pretty up to date (xivdb includes passives for every skill, be careful there).

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Thats fine and all, but you should get your numbers right :P. Vengeance is on a 120s recast timer for example.

Use sites like http://xivdb.com/ and http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/FF14_Wiki for reference. They are pretty up to date (xivdb includes passives for every skill, be careful there).

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Think I was using gamersescape and ffxivguild, the later I knew had some dated info, but I thought i scrutinized through most of it.

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Originally Posted by Steady

My point wasn't to say that one job was better at the other. Without stepping on anyone's toes.... Isn't the fact that more is required of the player an indicator that one handles some situations easier than the other make it valid? Using "fracture" as timing, or staring at the clock to time Inner Beast sounds viable and very useful. I love playing warrior, tanked pretty much all content with it... but me loving warrior doesn't make it less true that some things easier on paladin. Likewise some things are easier on Warrior. And some things, are pretty much the same.

This post was primarily for a FC mate who remarked that Paladin > Warrior. I tried to explain how similar they were, and also how there's really only niche situations where Paladin outperforms, but equally situations where Warrior does. Was trying to state the case that they are equivalent but different.

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But that's his whole point...easier does not equal better. We can all agree that Paladin is an easier class to play (1,2,3 ftw...), but that doesn't necessarily mean it will perform better in certain contents. A good warrior will be on par with a good paladin and in some cases outperform the paladin (and in some cases the opposite will be true depending on the fight). A bad paladin will always be better than a bad warrior. Your friend has probably just never grouped up with a good warrior to know the difference. But I promise you it's night and day.

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Originally Posted by Steady

This post was primarily for a FC mate who remarked that Paladin > Warrior.

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I get almost all of my FC through turn 5 main tanking as Warrior. Some of them still think Warrior sucks. *shrug* People are stubborn sometimes. No point in trying to convince them if they're not open-minded.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I get almost all of my FC through turn 5 main tanking as Warrior. Some of them still think Warrior sucks. *shrug* People are stubborn sometimes. No point in trying to convince them if they're not open-minded.

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The general consensus amongst most of the people that I hang out with, because of how well a good WAR performs, is they'd rather have a WAR than a PLD to such an extent that a lot of the PLDs are trying to swap over to WAR (often with hilarious results where they can't handle more than 1 combo and/or don't know what to do with Wrath stacks).

It's more a case of bringing the player rather than the class though: bad WAR < bad PLD < mediocre PLD = mediocre WAR < good PLD < good WAR. In either case, the good player is better than the bad player; it's just that there's a lot more deviation from the middle with WAR than there is with PLD.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's more a case of bringing the player rather than the class though: bad WAR < bad PLD < mediocre PLD = mediocre WAR < good PLD < good WAR. In either case, the good player is better than the bad player; it's just that there's a lot more deviation from the middle with WAR than there is with PLD.

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Yeah, I have convinced them that much. They have no complaints when I tank for them as warrior but when they have some random warrior under-perform, it's ingrained that bad performance as warrior just being bad. Either way, warrior and paladin are in a balanced state right now. Paladin just have less variance so for them, whom doesn't really get into endgame stuffs (most only beat primals EX and turn 5 once or twice), paladins are usually the surer bet.

I barely got my t5 kill but I felt the opposite. For twin I'd prefer Pali because there's peaks and valleys in the fight and if you got faith in your healer Pali works fine and you got hg. Besides that though I have a hard time figuring out which is better. War lately I've been pulling double ib's with bb and berserk up for over 1000 each which kicks ass. Also started turning off defiance and been dps way higher. But I always felt Pali gives you nice long cool downs that are steady whereas war timing your bb, berserks, sc's to heal yourself at the right times

It's more a case of bringing the player rather than the class though: bad WAR < bad PLD < mediocre PLD = mediocre WAR < good PLD < good WAR. In either case, the good player is better than the bad player; it's just that there's a lot more deviation from the middle with WAR than there is with PLD.[/QUOTE]

Nice cause war is way more fun. It's fun to throw down massive damage on mobs, I'm barely figuring out timing for self heals but if you can rely on yourelf for 5-6k hp 1-2 times a fight that's big. A good se with ber and ir up followed with a IB is getting me great heals now

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Originally Posted by Killabye

I'm barely figuring out timing for self heals but if you can rely on yourelf for 5-6k hp 1-2 times a fight that's big. A good se with ber and ir up followed with a IB is getting me great heals now

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The self heals are honestly pretty negligible for any content where you actually need a tank. What's important is timing IB for the damage reduction and maximizing your damage/Wrath stack generation while maintaining the SP debuff.

why people forgeting vengeance? Everyone says ib this ib that. But actually vengeance is more usefull. Of course it has longer cd but still poeple ignore it too much.

Also: WAR looks like self-heal tank but its not. Selfhealing abilities arent much needed in endgame (bloodbath is crap....). Every cd should be used BEFORE spike not after. Same for Thrill of Battle (its giving you more hp for some reason, think what -notice TOB is mainly more hp, not heal itself).

Using right you can mitgate really most of dmg. It's usefull not only on death sentence but also on Fireball, if you mitgate most of dmg (also death sentence) with foresight+ib+vengeance your healers can focus on healing party, not you.

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Originally Posted by CrossSleet

why people forgeting vengeance? Everyone says ib this ib that. But actually vengeance is more usefull

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People do not "ignore" Vengeance. People talk about IB because you're going to be using it a helluva lot more and it will be up a helluva lot more often if you're doing it correctly, both on a per use (Vengeance is 1 use every 2 minutes; IB is 4 use/min with Infuriate) and uptime basis (Vengeance lasts 15 seconds every 120 seconds for 12.5% uptime; Inner Beast can last 6 seconds 4 times every 60 seconds for 40% uptime). It also adds a helluva lot more DR than Vengeance does (20% with 40% uptime is 8% DR; 30% with 12.5% uptime is 3.75% DR).

Vengeance is a CD and is a factor when you consider the use paradigm of the WAR CD suite. It is not, however, part of the fundamental playstyle of WAR (re: the attacks you use on a constant basis), of which IB actually is.

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Originally Posted by CrossSleet

Same for Thrill of Battle (its giving you more hp for some reason, think what -notice TOB is mainly more hp, not heal itself)

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If the healer is knowledgeable about warrior, Thrill of Battle can also be used as damage reduction CD. Say I have 8k HP, with Thrill of battle, I have 9.6k HP. Now if I eat Mountain Buster for 4k damage and the healer only heals me for 2.4k and leave me at 8k until ToB ends, I just mitigated 1.6/4=40% of that Mountain Buster. The more damage you take, the lesser the percentage which is why you should keep Storm's Path up and Inner Beast up. Same Mountain Buster with Storm's Path and Inner Beast will do 4*0.9*0.8=2.88k damage resulting in healer only needs to heal me for 1.28k. 1.6/2.88=55%.
Of course that is the perfect case scenario and requires the healer to have knowledge about Warrior but it's more than just giving you HP.
Also, for fun, go in turn 4, get healed to max, pop Thrill of Battle, eat POX, Thrill of Battle effect now lasts the entire POX duration.