Please move the game away from grind and towards skill

...or at least make skill an alternative to grind.

Just so we're clear from the start, I don't mind when things are hard to get, but I do mind when the process of getting them is tedious.

Right, so Novus is here and for someone who is not afraid of grinding, but is dedicated, it's going to take 75 days to complete the scroll. So I'm going to guess that's pretty much the time window SE allowed itself for coming up or at least hint at new ways of enhancing the relic weapon. For others willing to invest more time, Novus can be obtained in let's say 30? maybe even 20 days.

The problem is that trying to force your way through this means you have to deal with long hours of grinding BF or hoping the planets align and that a fate with somehow drop a piece of Alexandrite. Maybe it's just me (?), but that's not something fun.

/part 1

So why not use things which already at your (SE) disposal to make this Novus quest more appealing? Clearly it won't happen for Novus, but I'm hoping this will trigger some positive thinking in the future. Let's say, just for the sake of the example, that you have to complete 75 challenges, one for each meld. What could those challenges be? Kill Twintania in less than X minutes? Down the three pillar bosses (can't remember the name) from Labirynth of the Ancients in a 2 seconds time window? Complete T1-5 without any KOs? The list could go on, but my point is:
- you would make this about skill (yes, it's also gear, we are talking Novus here)
- you would bring more people together in playing your game (not grinding it's content)
- you would recycle old content
- you would make the game more fun
- you would make a Novus obtained in 5 days something to really brag about and not just a sign of insanity

I hope you will consider this.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by SethLex

...or at least make skill an alternative to grind.

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If you don't want to grind for Novus then the alternative is getting your weapon from The Second Coil of Bahamut, which requires skill.

While unrefined, SethLex made a good point.

What are the majority of endgame players doing now? Grinding for tomes. Grinding FATES for Atma. Completing the books for their Animus. Doing whatever the Novus quest involves (I don't know, and I'm completely disinterested.)

Is any of that particularly difficult? Does it require skill? Not really.

What are they NOT doing? Learning better/proper ways to play their classes. Trying something different. Consistently clearing HM/EX primals. Challenging and/or clearing even the first set of Coil turns. Learning or even getting to SEE the Second Coil.

I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou at all. You can lump me in with the rest. The difference is, I WANT to use the skills I worked hard to learn to challenge content that IS challenging. I don't care about the Zodiac Saga, not when I realized it's a grind purely for the sake of a grind. Speedrun Brayflox HM for tomes? Nah. I'm level 50, i90x. I can get tomes doing literally ANYTHING now. Why overlook everything else the game has to offer for just a by-the-numbers routine, for the sake of a grind that serves as a gateway to a grind. . . which serves as a gateway to a grind?!

To hell with the Zodiac Saga and the grind it enforces. Get me into Coil anytime.

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Originally Posted by SethLex

Please move the game away from grind and towards skill
...or at least make skill an alternative to grind.

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I think you've never heard about Coil.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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Nobody tells people they HAVE to do animus/novus. They could go into coil and clear. If they don't, it's their choice, either because they don't have the time for it, or the skill, or the people to play with.
Nothing is stopping you to get into coil either.

Now, some people don't mind the grind, so why shouldn't there be any grind for these people?

Because nothing about the game requires skill. You cannot click a button in any fashion better or more skillfully than another. You may however see patterns faster than others, and adapt. But its only a matter of time before other adapt as well. The game requires about as much skills a complicated game of Simon. This is a game, made for fun, with a gear grind made to keep people busy and feeling as though they are progressing.

Seriuosly dude.... this is MMO game....

Ok, allow me to simplify then since apparently my original post got translated into Novus vs SCoB4 which was, I had hopped clearly, not my intention:
ATM - in order to get Novus you need to kill 2 mobs.
Proposal - get Novus by killing 1 mob with a crit killing blow.

Even simpler: add a twist to it. It's still going to be a grind in the end, because, dude, it's an MMO game. That doesn't mean it can't be fun or challenging. (!!!)

What is Second Binding Coil of Bahamut?

It would seem you want this one specific weapon to be easier. The one specific weapon they had already announced would be a long grind and take plenty of time and be a huge time sink to do when you aren't doing other things.

Don't get it

I don't want a small time sink, I don't mind if they make it double for all I care. What I do mind is repetitiveness and lack of engagement. I feel like I should repost the whole thing for lack of clarity...

Look... You have so many toys to play with as a designer, so many mechanics you can chose from, so many already existing challenges in the game - use them, make the grind more appealing. It's not a matter of quantity, but one of quality. I don;t care if you have to spend 2 years to get the Novus and by the time you get it the game has already advanced to the 44 Coil of Bahamut, but don't treat players like rats in a wheel especially when you have a maze a your disposal, some cheese, some rat traps and some skincare products that need testing. :)

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Originally Posted by SethLex

.. Please move the game away from grind and towards skill ...

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Just an idea in response to the caption ^^;
move away for grind > only give Alex from daily quest, un-grindable.
towards skill > make all maps must be solo, as a skill check.

I felt that atma should have been rewards from challenges. I understand that its a grind but the levi weapon alternative for an upgrade is also pretty much a grind you need the weapon and the mirror that everyone else will roll on. Levi weapon is i95 same as t5 weapon which granted probably isn't best in slot but without the mirror you might as well just get the t5 weapon. For those who want to do second coil but currently are in a position where they don't have a static this means my only options for a weapon upgrade are, grind the zodiac saga, and grind leviathan. The content you grind is different but the concept is the same. I much rather see a skill related system be implemented as part of the grind so long as its scaled correctly I don't want to have to do something like slay titan ex 10 times because most groups I get in for that are fail.

Personally I don't mind the grind, I actually quite like completing things that take a long time... But when you make it not fun, then I have a problem. FATE spam is pretty not fun content.

In that aspect I sorta half agree with the OP that I don't like this grind.

Well I was doing the expert roulette every day anyway. (because i enjoy playing the game and doing a dungeon or two a day? god forbid.)
so in 75 days I will finish my weapon.
Still prob won't have a t9 weapon because random drop is random.

Low to Zero Effort added effort.

Don't worry, OP. There's a few people that understand your position.

It's like getting relevant relic rewards for getting "achievements". Do something out of the ordinary. Go through a dungeon with 4 WHMs, let a chocobo get the killing blow on a boss FATE, gather 5 HQ items without using skills from one node, etc. It's like doing a Nuzlocke challenge in Pokemon. Players are getting bored doing the same thing when the mechanics and potential or odd ways to have fun are already there in the game.

Granted some of the ideas above might result in a grind as well, but that's not what the OP is against. At least it's not BF SR again.

Nah. You have Coil and Extreme Primal weapons for skills. This is for people that don't/can't/won't do them.

Move everything to skill? You have my disapproval. Because not everyone is skilled. Look at our dear Titan EX, out for months and it is still roadblocking people.

Give these poor chaps something non-skill to work for.

Just that how SE implements the "non-skill" content is another story (I like the idea if a daily quest for Expert Roulette to 100% earn a map, but FATE grind is a bit meh. 800 myth is quite a grind for a map but well let's see what the hunt in 2.3 provides).

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Move everything to skill?

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No, but give grind a skill/fun alternative. Even if that means more time spent on it, it would be quality time.

Though I would have to agree with the OP that the grind is bad, tedious, and unforgiving. I can see why SethLex would want some things to be tailored towards skill and it makes sense. Overall I can understand why SE would make this quest so grind heavy. It is an MMO, is one way of looking at it but also because as others stated previously, there are some of us, me included, who after completing t5 and started SCOB can't get a static party, just don't want to be bothered with it, or would simply want to clear these things at their leisure, or because we can't play as often or aren't as intensely hardcore about some aspects of the game, mainly SCOB. This quest was intended for casual players, granted I am mostly a casual player. I only recently completed t1-5 about a week ago lol. I can understand where you are coming from but then again I can also understand both sides of the argument as well. You may disagree with what I am saying but this is just my opinion.

the 75 day time frame imo is to hold novus till 2.3 when a few things happen with the ilvl increase...

1. 3rd coil. new higher allagan wep.
2. ramuh. new ilvl weps.
3. possibly another type of wep that you can get from tomes/coil that is just under the new allagan wep kinda like the unidentifieds.
4. the new relic upgrade which will always be a grind.
5. number 2 and 3 will probably have an upgrade mechanic like mirrors/sands/oil type

coil = skill/rng, ramuh = skill/rng, possible random tome drop wep = rng/skill/grind, relic upgrade = pure grind/rng

being that atm the choices are coil for 2 weps, levi for 1 and mirror, and the relic line. relic is fine being the pure grind wep. besides, you dont NEED novus to beat whats currently out atm and possibly wont be 100% needed till 2.3 and even then i bet you can still get by with whats available for awhile.

all complaints come from: "It takes too long, i dont want to run coil, and I want it now"

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Originally Posted by Legacy_Wolfwood

the 75 day time frame imo is to hold novus till 2.3 when a few things happen with the ilvl increase...

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There won't be an ilvl increase in 2.3, that will be 2.4. 2.3 is CT2 and Ramuh which are going to drop i100 items.

To the OP - If you want the Novus to be something skill based, yet limit the rate of completion, (from the perspective of the developers) then it's going to need to be something similar to the original relic quest, only tuned to the difficulty of T9. This won't work because it will exclude most of the players of the game by not giving casual/less skilled/uninterested people who can't/don't want to run Coil an upgrade option.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

There won't be an ilvl increase in 2.3, that will be 2.4. 2.3 is CT2 and Ramuh which are going to drop i100 items.

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thanks for the correction. but still. 1 of the many options being pure grind is fine considering everything else is more skill based

I just hope that when the 3rd Coil is released, and the decision is made to put 2nd Coil into DF with the silly lockout removed, that they do NOT apply the Echo buff to 2nd Coil as soon as they did the last one. Hoping it's not added at all but that's wishful thinking.
There are skilled players who don't have a static group for 2nd Coil, who have a lot of trouble finding competent PUGs to clear for the week, among other factors. Some of those players are arguably more skilled and talented than those who are lucky enough to have a well organised static and easily clear it every week - do not deserve to be insulted with nerfs/echo. Please save the non-Echo party finder suggestion, it's hard enough finding people as it is without filtering down the amount of available competent players even more.

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Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee

I just hope that when the 3rd Coil is released, and the decision is made to put 2nd Coil into DF with the silly lockout removed, that they do NOT apply the Echo buff to 2nd Coil as soon as they did the last one. Hoping it's not added at all but that's wishful thinking.
There are skilled players who don't have a static group for 2nd Coil, who have a lot of trouble finding competent PUGs to clear for the week, among other factors. Some of those players are arguably more skilled and talented than those who are lucky enough to have a well organised static and easily clear it every week - do not deserve to be insulted with nerfs/echo. Please save the non-Echo party finder suggestion, it's hard enough finding people as it is without filtering down the amount of available competent players even more.

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A lot of people have suggested that turning of the echo by yourself for this situation ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

A lot of people have suggested that turning of the echo by yourself for this situation ^^;

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I do turn Echo off, that doesn't mean I'll be able to convince the other 7 players. I'll re-iterate that it's already hard enough to find competent players to clear Coil 2 without trying to set up a PF for non-echo.
Players who are deliberately waiting for nerfs/echo before attempting content should not be encouraged by SE. Why are casuals being catered to but people who are progression minded (not hardcore) are left in the lurch? Is it because casuals make up most of the subscription $$$ proceeds?

I'll leave this thread with some quotes from a casual player from my server on the current state of Coil 2/endgame in ARR:
"the same "glorified content" you ARE working hard on will become laughably easy to farm"
"no one really cares about progression because it's moot in the end, you guys are just grinding vanity items..."

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Originally Posted by SethLex

No, but give grind a skill/fun alternative. Even if that means more time spent on it, it would be quality time.

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They did. Second coil of Bahamut. It is skill, it is fun, and it takes lots of time to practice and clear it. And you get top notch loots.

Many good points made here. And I understand the need for something like the Zodiac Saga grind/non-skill based progresion - something for everyone, right?

But here's an example of the worst case scenario I thought, then actually saw happen: I swing by Mor Dhona yesterday, and someone's in PF and shouting for members for a T5 run. I wanted to join. BADLY. But I was already committed to helping an FC mate who's a fresh 50. Anyways, someone replies to the shout "T5?I dunno, sounds like less time to do Alexandrite farming."

Felt like my soul just got Geocrushed right there. Welcome to FFXIV now folks. Why challenge content you're more than likely geared for at this point, when you can just settle into a long grind and eventually get results? Endgame? Why bother when you can just farm/speedrun quick dungeons for tomes? Sure, some aren't interested in BCOB/SCOB just like I'm not interested in Zodiac. But what are you going to do once you get that Novus weapon? Stand around in Mor Dhona flaunting it, and STILL not even trying to take on a bigger challenge? I mean, hey, your game, your tailored experience as you like it. But for every person who opts for the "easy" grind, that's one less person to run harder content with. And being one of those people that doesn't mind the challenge, it's a bit disappointing to see something like that.

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Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee

I'll leave this thread with some quotes from a casual player from my server on the current state of Coil 2/endgame in ARR:
"the same "glorified content" you ARE working hard on will become laughably easy to farm"
"no one really cares about progression because it's moot in the end, you guys are just grinding vanity items..."

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Oh the irony of that statement. Coil 2 weapons are STILL better than the Animus weapons (not sure about Novus, and don't care either. I am quite resolute when I say SE completely turned me off to it the way they addressed the MASSIVE bad reception the Atma grind alone got.) So if anything is a vanity now, it'd be those glowing grind trophies people "worked" so hard for.

I fail to see the problem.
The "skill" alternative is already here and it is called Second Coil of Bahamut.
Novus is i110, HA weapon is i115. There is no reason to get a Novus weapon to be able to beat T9. It is just "skill".

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Originally Posted by HazelNyan

Novus is i110, HA weapon is i115. There is no reason to get a Novus weapon to be able to beat T9. It is just "skill".

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This. EXACTLY this.

Ther are people who would rather put in huge amounts of time for the recolored Zenith - Atma - then a now-transient prize that is Animus, all to eventually get a Novus weapon which is STILL not as good as the Soldiery weapon you can get on the way to clearing Turn 9 and getting literally the current best weapon in the game. If you just don't like Coil, cool. I understand. Zodiac is an adequate alternative for you, I hope. But realize the time invested in the Zodiac saga will NOT help you gain the skill for Coil or whatever future content may be added down the line.

This is of course assuming that it will be skill-based and not another grind purely for grind's sake.

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Originally Posted by HazelNyan

I fail to see the problem.
The "skill" alternative is already here and it is called Second Coil of Bahamut.
Novus is i110, HA weapon is i115. There is no reason to get a Novus weapon to be able to beat T9. It is just "skill".

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

This. EXACTLY this.

Ther are people who would rather put in huge amounts of time for the recolored Zenith - Atma - then a now-transient prize that is Animus, all to eventually get a Novus weapon which is STILL not as good as the Soldiery weapon you can get on the way to clearing Turn 9 and getting literally the current best weapon in the game. If you just don't like Coil, cool. I understand. Zodiac is an adequate alternative for you, I hope. But realize the time invested in the Zodiac saga will NOT help you gain the skill for Coil or whatever future content may be added down the line.

This is of course assuming that it will be skill-based and not another grind purely for grind's sake.

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I'm going to go out on a limb and generalize for a second, which won't make many people happy. But I'm willing to bet that the people going after relic upgrades have no desire to ever do any coil, or if they do, it's only once for the story. It's been proven up to this point that relic is 2nd or 3rd on the BiS list, and I don't see SE changing that formula - there will always be (and SHOULD be) something else that tops it, just because its content is about as difficult as any other facebook flash game.

Problem is..

Where's my primal i110 weapon, yo.
I was looking forward to Ramuh, but then they announced i100 items, so it seems like a waste of time as far as weapons go.

I'm sure they'll make nice weapon skins.
Nice to know that all my effort to stay with the "primal progression" paid of. Or, well.. Not.

Even if primals are "too easy" for i110 weapons(funny, by the way, how that would somehow matter). Make them harder.
We're beating the snot out of iconic final fantasy summons, but apparently, this content is sort of the third world of.. contents.

I'll say this: If you feel that taking down the Extreme versions of primals is too easy and the rewards subpar, you really ought to give Coil a shot. You'll find more of a challenge and better gear/weapons there.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'll say this: If you feel that taking down the Extreme versions of primals is too easy and the rewards subpar, you really ought to give Coil a shot. You'll find more of a challenge and better gear/weapons there.

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Sad to say only if RNG favors you. In this current situation, if you are very unlucky you can go lootless for weeks.

I am a SMN and all i have after so many weeks of going through t6-t8 is a High Allagan Ring of Casting, thats all.

The difference if you will, is that if I run Turn 5 - JUST Turn 5 and successfully beat it, there's a 1 in 8 chance of getting the weapon I want. Obviously, there are higher numbers with Turns that drop gear and accessories together, but if I run Turn 5 only, it's only a 1 in 8 chance.

With atmas, 1 in infinity. 2 FATES pop up at the same time. FATE A is easier/soloable than FATE B. But FATE B is closer. . . How do I know which one to go to? Coin flip, I choose B, and as I enter FATE B, FATE C appears across the map. How do I know that's not the one? Oh and it's late at night, so no one's really around. How can I successfully complete B or C alone?

It's rather unbalanced, and I am overly simplifying the formula, but I'll take a 1 in 8 chance over a completely randomized one with far too many variables.

It is 1 in 9, because there are 9 weapons, so you're chance is 11% instead of 12,5% :)

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

It is 1 in 9, because there are 9 weapons, so you're chance is 11% instead of 12,5% :)

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Forgot the SCH/SMN split. Still, 11% from 1 location still tops less than 1% from an unspecified number of random instances within a wide area.

I miss the FFXI grind

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Ther are people who would rather put in huge amounts of time for the recolored Zenith - Atma - then a now-transient prize that is Animus, all to eventually get a Novus weapon which is STILL not as good as the Soldiery weapon you can get on the way to clearing Turn 9 and getting literally the current best weapon in the game. .

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Uhm, just a slight correction, but Novus weapons can be infused to have identical stats to the i110 Soldiery weapons.