When to use Flare?

I was wondering when should I be using Flare, should I use it when there's more than 3 mobs?

Always and for everything.

^
Agreed.

When MP is not below certain threshold (the lowest amounts of MP allowed to use Flare) and you see more than single target

Are there at least two enemies?
Are you in Astral Fire?

If both are yes, use Flare.

all the above, plus
for single target, if you have convert up, do Fire 3 > Fire1 till around 300mp > Flare > convert > Fire 1 > ice 3.

also, if you know the boss will jump , (i.e. ex primal) just Swiftcast > Flare then transpose. you will have downtime after they jump anyway.

make sure you Swift cast > Flare

very much agreed. Will also say at all cost try to avoid to flare after a transpose.
As you do larger group of enemies you can then be doing triple flares :D

Should I make sure that I can use convert after a flare? And how would I triple flare @Maero?

Oh yeah, and don't use Fire 2. Like, ever. As soon as you have Flare, it is obsolete.

Learn the double Flare rotation. Love the double Flare rotation. Be the best you you can be.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it better to stick to a single-target rotation if there are only 2 mobs?

Another time you can use flare is at the end of your single-target rotation if you have swiftcast & convert up. Of course you only want to do this if you don't need the swiftcast & convert up later for certain DPS checks.

I wouldn't say never use Fire 2, because some tanks simply can't handle Flare spam, unfortunately. You may have to use Fire 2's in situations where the tank can't handle you generating hate as quickly as you will using Flare spam.

I'm hoping there's some sarcasm here. Surely it doesn't make sense to use Flares and the rely on Transpose tricks instead of just using lots of Astral 3 Fire 2s until low mana.

Unless the gear/weapon difference is far too much, there's really no excuse for the tank to lose hate. Flash/Overpower spam isn't exactly rocket science. There's also Quelling Strikes.

That said, if the only reasonable use for a skill is as a way to intentionally reduce your dps output, then I think it's implied that skill is pretty much useless.

Also worth noting that if you screw up a double flare rotation, you are sitting and twiddling your thumbs at 0 mp for almost 2 GCD until your transpose becomes available again

Yup! Good thing it's really easy to do once you get a feel for it as the window is exceptionally forgiving. A few minutes at the training dummies and anyone can get it down.

After Your fire 2's and up until your very low on mp (after a while you will know the timing) then cast flare> convert>either swiftcast flare or just flare> Mega Ether> Flare
There you have 3 Flares :D
You can do more then 3 flares with transpose but using flares after you transpose is a very big loss of dps, same goes for instance if you would flare under umbral Ice
Triple flares i have been using in coil and all the new HM dungeons, and if you have 2 blm's around well yes :D

Fire 2s? What Fire 2s?

Apologies for the double post, but I was casually browsing on my mobile for my earlier posts and I have to admit I only just skimmed through and didn't even bother to quote :/

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Originally Posted by Maero

After Your fire 2's and up until your very low on mp (after a while you will know the timing) then cast flare> convert>either swiftcast flare or just flare> Mega Ether> Flare
There you have 3 Flares :D
You can do more then 3 flares with transpose but using flares after you transpose is a very big loss of dps, same goes for instance if you would flare under umbral Ice
Triple flares i have been using in coil and all the new HM dungeons, and if you have 2 blm's around well yes :D

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The bit about not using Flares after Transpose isn't entirely good advice. That, coupled with the mention of Fire II, suggests to me that you aren't familiar with the superior AoE rotation that is the double flare rotation, Maero. Said rotation involves doing exactly what you're suggesting not to do, after all

When approaching a fresh AoE pack, you do the following traditionally:

Fire III > Flare > Convert > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > WAIT* > Flare > Flare > Transpose > WAIT* > Flare > Flare > etc...

Obviously the opener can be extended with an Ether.

Now, the WAIT is the critical section of this rotation. The idea is, you want to time your cast so that you get a fresh tick of MP in your Umbral Ice state just as your first Flare goes through. This puts you into Astral Fire III and also leaves you with enough MP to cast the 2nd Flare.

The basic guideline for how long you wait is after you Transpose, you wait until you see your first tick of MP. As soon as you see it, you count 2 seconds in your head. You have to begin casting your Flare just before you would say 2, that is just shy of 2 seconds after your first tick of MP. The window of error is actually quite forgiving, but if you stick with that rule of thumb you should get it. Some practice at the training dummies is a good way to establish the muscle memory.


It's counter-intuitive that the best rotation is one that involves waiting, but unfortunately that's the case here due both to the fact that Fire II is much too far below Flare in potency, and that this rotation involves casting Flare, and only Flare, after the opener and no time wasted on a single target spell.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yup! Good thing it's really easy to do once you get a feel for it as the window is exceptionally forgiving. A few minutes at the training dummies and anyone can get it down.

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I've seen comments like the one in bold said numerous times. Along with other things like people counting the 2 seconds in their head. Are people guessing or using an internal clock? Are people unaware that you can just use the umbral ice buff timer to see your 2 second wait time? i.e. You get your tick at 8 seconds on your UI buff, you would start your cast at 6 seconds on your UI buff.

Just throwing it out there because i've seen enough people say things that lead me to believe they are kind of guessing at the 2 second window when the game gives you its own timer to use.

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Originally Posted by StubHub

I've seen comments like the one in bold said numerous times. Along with other things like people counting the 2 seconds in their head. Are people guessing or using an internal clock? Are people unaware that you can just use the umbral ice buff timer to see your 2 second wait time? i.e. You get your tick at 8 seconds on your UI buff, you would start your cast at 6 seconds on your UI buff.

Just throwing it out there because i've seen enough people say things that lead me to believe they are kind of guessing at the 2 second window when the game gives you its own timer to use.

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Personally I've just developed a feel for it. Even if I'm moving about, I know when to start casting.

The Umbral Ice buff tip is a good one. Ultimately, use whatever works for you.

OK thank for your help guys I think I'm starting to get it, just need to work on the beginning bit. :)

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

Please correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it better to stick to a single-target rotation if there are only 2 mobs?

Another time you can use flare is at the end of your single-target rotation if you have swiftcast & convert up. Of course you only want to do this if you don't need the swiftcast & convert up later for certain DPS checks.

I wouldn't say never use Fire 2, because some tanks simply can't handle Flare spam, unfortunately. You may have to use Fire 2's in situations where the tank can't handle you generating hate as quickly as you will using Flare spam.

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And this ^

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Oh yeah, and don't use Fire 2. Like, ever. As soon as you have Flare, it is obsolete.

Learn the double Flare rotation. Love the double Flare rotation. Be the best you you can be.

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To be honest I think this is pretty bad advice.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Umm not familiar,really? I have spent a great deal of time as others have testing different rotations.
I only flare after my mana is low and if you actually think there is no dps loss doing flare after transpose well just ask other blm's that have been at it for a while, you will see that their is a loss of dps indeed if casting flare after transpose.
And i do not do 2x flares i do 3x flares which is far more potent then 2x flares, and more then 3 flares as was posted is also a loss of dps.
Not trying to be rude but do some testing and see the results, test dummies is not the best way of getting numbers, it helps but some on the blm rotation post i think have tested using parsers
Not saying your beginning aoe rotation is wrong at all as others do it so as well, but again the transpose> flare i do not agree about
Really at the end of the day do what you feel is best,if a rotation works for you then by all means use it.

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What do you do after you Transpose in your AoE rotation then? Please, do tell.

If it involves Transpose > Blizzard (III) > Fire III > Fire II spam > Flare > Transpose then I'm sorry to break it to you but the double Flare rotation is superior DPS. The only way it would dip below the Fire II rotation is if you screw it up.

When I refer to the double Flare rotation, I do not mean the opening rotation where everybody would use 2-3 Flares with access to Convert and an Ether. I'm referring to the extended rotation, where you chose to use 2 Flares between your Transposes instead of using any single target spells or Fire II.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

To be honest I think this is pretty bad advice.

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I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

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It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

Flare spam is friggin great when you can use it, though.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

It's good advice for a perfect world with perfect players. I've encountered tanks that can't hold hate during flare spam. You can ask them to try and spam flash/overpower all you want, but if they can't hold hate, they can't hold hate.

Also, you may find yourself in a situation where one mob is going to die before the others, bringing the count down to 2 mobs. In this situation, I'd rather use a Fire 2 (one mob dies) and go into my single-target rotation for optimal DPS. Scenarios are too dynamic to say that you should only do one thing at all times.

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I guess if you're going to nitpick for hypothetical scenarios, especially ones that are fairly uncommon like the one you mentioned, then I suppose you can come up with a reason to use Fire II - though in a scenario such as that one I'd probably just switch to my single target rotation straight away and burn own the remaining two.

As for the tanks who can't hold hate scenario, that's not an excuse to use Fire II. Not even remotely. That's effectively busy work. If you get a tank in DF that has significantly lesser gear than you, sure this will force you to hold back on DPS (provided even Quelling Strikes isn't enough to keep you safe, which... that's pushing it since it should still be possible even with a reasonable gear difference). However, if the goal here is to reduce your DPS, why keep yourself busy using a lesser skill? May as well wait longer between Flares. Same effect.

In any other scenario, if I am expected to be doing an AoE rotation as a BLM, then the tank is expected to be holding AoE hate. It has all the tools, and no excuses. No, I will not play less effectively because the tank doesn't know how to play better. As a player who plays both tanks and all DPS jobs, I will take the time to figure out with said player why they are unable to maintain hate - which shouldn't be too hard because it will end with "spam Flash/Overpower".


Haven't seen a single reason yet to actually put Fire II on my bars

The best advice as to why NOT to use the infinite flare rotation is you have to have a good grasp of the refresh timing of mana regen and be able to somewhat glitch the system to get a mana tick AS your flare is going off. This takes practice and skill, far more than being able to calculate when a fire II will take you below the MP minimum to cast flare.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

The best advice as to why NOT to use the infinite flare rotation is you have to have a good grasp of the refresh timing of mana regen and be able to somewhat glitch the system to get a mana tick AS your flare is going off. This takes practice and skill, far more than being able to calculate when a fire II will take you below the MP minimum to cast flare.

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Yes, playing well takes practice and skill.

That said, as far as properly timing your first Flare to get this to work, the window of input is approximately half a second wide. This is a rather large window, and one that is quite easy to get accustomed to with a bit of practice at the dummies. Just a few minutes should be enough, provided you know more or less where the window is, which as was mentioned is roughly just under 2 seconds after your first tick of MP.

Any BLM that would like to play their job optimally is encouraged to learn this, and love it, as I said earlier. Any BLM who is satisfied doing sub-optimal DPS can carry on doing Fire IIs.

sub-optimal dps, lol
This coming from someone who is using flare after transpose?
You do realize casting flare in UI is less dmg then if you would cast in AF? And practice on dummies, yeah not optimal at all.
And i only transpose after 3 flares, also you will want to use both Quelling and Raging Strikes in your rotation
post on reddit
Doing three Fire II at the start is better than going straight to Flare. Not by a lot, but it is overall higher DPS.
"F3>Flare is 62.4 pot/s.
F3>F2>F2>F2>Flare (so, using all MP) is 61 pot/s."
It is quite true that going straight to Flare is higher potency per second, but this doesn't take into account the duration over which you're achieving that potency per second. Both have higher potency per second over Transpose > Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Flare, so you want to do as much damage in the opening rotation as possible. The rotation including the 3 Fire IIs last twice as long, so it does more damage overall.

Apparently character limit
Fire 2 is still very useful and even so in coil
Perhaps if you use Fire 3 after your transpose it would be fine, but flare directly after transpose, nope

Yes, the first of the 2 Flares will be weaker, as it is in Umbral Ice, however the 2nd Flare is fully powered because the first one puts you into Astral Fire III.

Furthermore, due to the vast difference in potency between Fire II and Flare, and the fact that the double Flare rotation entirely skips the use of Blizzard spells or Fire III (a GCD wasted on a single target), the Double Flare rotation comes out on top - by a hefty margin.

I have tested this. Thoroughly. Being a DPS main who enjoys playing each DPS job at full capacity, I have theorycrafted/tested/researched each one of them. Not to mention that since it is actually pretty widely accepted that a properly executed double Flare rotation is superior to the typical Fire II-involved rotation, I can't help but wonder: what rock have you been casting under?

Since you claim to have tested this, I have to conclude that you tested poorly. My guess is you tested DPS on dummies and compared the double Flare rotation to your standard one, which involves the use of Fire III and a Blizzard spell. That's 2 single-target spells, and thus would register as higher DPS on the target itself, but not on the pack as a whole.

Either that, or you never actually properly tested the double Flare rotation in question yourself, and simply dismissed it assuming that the use of Flare to attain AF3 rather than Fire III was bad/silly/worse/etc.

Also...

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Originally Posted by Maero

The rotation including the 3 Fire IIs last twice as long, so it does more damage overall.

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That makes absolutely no sense lol.

Well if all you have been doing is testing on dummies, well ok
Again were did i say i double flare? I turned the "pretty widely" accepted 2x flares into 3x flares
My rotation is that of those who have used parsers, not test dummies
Yes when i first reached 50 blm i used your rotation but only after countless testing, mostly by others but i have and continue to test different rotations
have i realized there is more dps to be had.
Also several mobs or more, overtime Fire 2's will in fact add up and will be more dmg
Anyhow, best of luck in coil

/closethread

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well if all you have been doing is testing on dummies, well ok

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My testing is not exclusive to dummies. That would be silly. They have their place, and provide conclusions in a certain context.

More relevant testing is content like Turn 4 of BCoB or Brayflox (Hard) speed runs.

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Again were did i say i double flare? I turned the "pretty widely" accepted 2x flares into 3x flares

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I'm still not sure you understand what I'm comparing. The opener is not in question here. Everyone worth their salt will open an AoE burn with

Fire III > Flare > Convert > Flare (> Ether > Flare) > Transpose

You didn't turn anything into anything. Not sure if English isn't your first language or not, but when I say double Flare rotation I haven't been referring to starting off with 2 Flares.

The comparison here is, what do you do after that opener, when you've use up your Convert and Ether?

A. Transpose > Blizzard (I/II/III) > Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Transpose > etc.

or

B. Transpose > {wait} > Flare > Flare > Transpose > etc.


Comparing those 2 extensions to the AoE burn rotation, B comes out far ahead. It's not even close.

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/closethread

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Whatever you say, buddy. Pretty sure the thread doesn't close when you want it to though.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm curious... why do you think this is bad advice?

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There are very few situations where this "double flare" is of any use at all.

AoE rotations are very situational, but for most cases, mobs should not be around long enough for you to empty mp - transpose - wait and hardcast 2 flares, let alone any more.

Take Bray first and 2nd pull for example:

If the party is decent:

1st pull:

RS - Fire III - Fire II x 1 or 2 (depending on party dps) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

2nd pull:

RS - Fire III - Fire II x 1 or 2 (depending on party dps) - Flare - Convert - SC - Flare


If party dps is low:

1st pull:

Fire III - Fire II - Fire II - RS - Fire II - Flare - Convert - (Fire II only if SCH in party) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

2nd pull:

Fire III - Fire II - Fire II - RS - Fire II - Flare - Convert - (Fire II only if SCH in party) - Flare - Mega Ether - SC - Flare

Still situational, but something like that is what I'd recommend.

i have yet to do extensive testing of either, as i've just begun to master the cold flare/hot flare rotation. But every time i've tried to do it in a real world setting (brayflox HM) stuff has died too fast for me to get to the 4th flare. Not necessarily because of my DPS, but because of the other DPS/WHM holys doing their thing too. And all of my recent T4 farms have been with 5 dps and 1 healer. I need to find some sucky DPS to run with so I can have enough time to properly test this rotation in real life.

Shit dying too fast sounds like a good problem to have.

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Originally Posted by StubHub

I've seen comments like the one in bold said numerous times. Along with other things like people counting the 2 seconds in their head. Are people guessing or using an internal clock? Are people unaware that you can just use the umbral ice buff timer to see your 2 second wait time? i.e. You get your tick at 8 seconds on your UI buff, you would start your cast at 6 seconds on your UI buff.

Just throwing it out there because i've seen enough people say things that lead me to believe they are kind of guessing at the 2 second window when the game gives you its own timer to use.

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I feel like a total n00b now. Where is the timer?

after a weekend worth of testing in various dungeons, its safe to say that infinite flare > any other AoE rotation, EXCEPT when raging strikes is up. So use FIII, F2, Ranging strikes, F2, F2, Flare, convert, swift flare. After that Fire III, infinite flare, until you have raging strikes up again.

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Originally Posted by Ringabell

I feel like a total n00b now. Where is the timer?

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the timer is where your buffs are. when you are in umbral ice or astral fire, you will have a timer for how long you stay in either. the timer refreshes when you cast another ice/fire spell to keep the stacks up.

the key to using flare after transpose is waiting for your first mana tick which varies depending on where you are in the server clock. im guessing, instead of counting 2 seconds in your head, he's suggesting you look at your UI timer and use that to count 2 seconds after you get your first mana tick. good idea.

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Originally Posted by Maero

You can do more then 3 flares with transpose but using flares after you transpose is a very big loss of dps

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i'll have to agree with noctis and say that flaring after transpose is higher dps. it is counter-intuitive but my eyes were opened recently (by mrhappy lol). essentially, instead of casting fire3 after flare > transpose, you cast flare. even though you're casting it from UI, the potency is still higher than fire3, but more important, you're hitting multiple mobs. the only thing is you have to time it so that you get a tick of mana as your flare hits. this means waiting for your first tick of mana, counting 2 seconds and then casting flare. ideally you wanna see your second tick of mana as your flare is halfway through casting.

after, you'll be in AF3 with around 1200 mp. this is where i differ from noctis a bit. i'll fire2 and then flare, just because for me transpose isn't back up yet if i straight flare.

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Originally Posted by silvio

i'll fire2 and then flare, just because for me transpose isn't back up yet if i straight flare.

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Yeah I've heard this from a few sources. I want to say a mix of spell speed and how long after your transpose you get your MP tick can effect whether you have Transpose back up after your 2nd Flare...

So in general if you get a tick of MP basically immediately after you hit Transpose, it's safe to say you can squeeze in a Fire II between the Flares to further optimize.