Vote Kick - HUGE Flaw. Needs an instant fix.

Thread closed. 100% done here.

Like I said in another thread, vote kick should also keep the player from rejoining the same instance ID as the one they were just kicked from.

Oh you did? In my frenzied state I didn't check to see if there were any existing threads, sorry!

Infuriated really?

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Infuriated really?

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Warrrior pun.

NO.


What if I get kicked for something unjust?! I must be able to return to the instance to exact my revenge.

Wearing a full set of mix'd i55 and i48 crafted gear with my Allagan (last patch) axe or Animus (this patch) axe puts me at something like i57 or i58. The requirement to queue for CT is i55. I am more than allowed to wear that gear in CT if I choose to. Using the vote kick to remove me for that would be abusing the vote kick feature and reportable.

Now, standing outside the barrier and not fighting is perfectly vote kick-able. And I agree about the getting into the same instance you were kicked out of.

Even tho I've totally annoyed the crap out of people with it last patch. I got kicked by all 7 people and rejoined 7 times and finished with them. All because I was wearing all my Behemoth and Odin armor. Which is ilvl 55, which you can refer to the first paragraph for.

Hey Jon.

For all those interested, I was the person he kicked from CT. Him and 5 other members of his FC who had abused the Vote Kick feature. I was in spiritbinding gear but that didn't stop me playing my role, and playing it well. Why? Because I needed to progress to get my binding done.

It's unfortunate you were so upset with the situation.

Edit: The reason I was outside the barrier is because I got kicked and when I got back in, someone had pulled and locked me out. Not my fault, that's your own.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

Hey Jon.

For all those interested, I was the person he kicked from CT. Him and 5 other members of his FC who had abused the Vote Kick feature. I was in spiritbinding gear but that didn't stop me playing my role, and playing it well. Why? Because I needed to progress to get my binding done.

It's unfortunate you were so upset with the situation.

Edit: The reason I was outside the barrier is because I got kicked and when I got back in, someone had pulled and locked me out. Not my fault, that's your own.

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Sigh, you had no +Strength or +Vitality attributes, the one time you were in the zone you just auto-attacked, I sat there and watched you. You did NOTHING to help the group and rightly so deserved to be kicked. My main issue with it was the fact I was FORCED to MT everything in our group. If I had become petulant and refused to tank, the raid would have gone nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Jon_00

Sigh, you had no +Strength or +Vitality attributes, the one time you were in the zone you just auto-attacked, I sat there and watched you. You did NOTHING to help the group and rightly so deserved to be kicked. My main issue with it was the fact I was FORCED to MT everything in our group. If I had become petulant and refused to tank, the raid would have gone nowhere.

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Again, ilvl 55 is all you need to be. There is no rule in this game that says you must gear for x stat. 99.9999999% of people might agree on X stat, but it is not part of the rules. From what he said, he wasn't afk. He wasn't hacking/cheating. He wasn't harassing anyone. And he wasn't offline. Those are the only 4 reasons you can vote kick. Sounds like you just admitted to abusing the vote kick feature.

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/upload...picable-Me.gif

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Originally Posted by Elikitts

Again, ilvl 55 is all you need to be. There is no rule in this game that says you must gear for x stat. 99.9999999% of people might agree on X stat, but it is not part of the rules. From what he said, he wasn't afk. He wasn't hacking/cheating. He wasn't harassing anyone. And he wasn't offline. Those are the only 4 reasons you can vote kick. Sounds like you just admitted to abusing the vote kick feature.

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Wow, just wow. I'm done here if that's the logic you can come out with. It's basic etiquette to equip the gear most suited to your job. I'm not having this argument.

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Originally Posted by Jon_00

Sigh, you had no +Strength or +Vitality attributes, the one time you were in the zone you just auto-attacked, I sat there and watched you. You did NOTHING to help the group and rightly so deserved to be kicked. My main issue with it was the fact I was FORCED to MT everything in our group. If I had become petulant and refused to tank, the raid would have gone nowhere.

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Really? Your chat log has no record of my using Internal Release, Berserk, Inner Beast, or my debuffs? It seems you may have an issue with your computer because they show up in my chat log.

You weren't forced to MT everything. Had you actually been an incompetent tank, which you weren't, I would have been more than happy to switch to my tanking gear. Sure I would like to get my spiritbinding done but if I also come into the DF and hold a group back to th extent where they have no capable tank, then I do what I got to do. Just accept it, you abused the system and that's that.

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Originally Posted by Jon_00

Wow, just wow. I'm done here if that's the logic you can come out with. It's basic etiquette to equip the gear most suited to your job. I'm not having this argument.

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But you are having it.

Ippon! Barboron!

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

Ippon! Barboron!

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I had to google that one but this too:

http://i.imgur.com/8X1Kp9j.jpg

If he's meeting the item level for the dungeon upon entering, then you really have no right to kick him, especially if he's participating. If he changed his gear (thus lowering his ilvl) after joining, then sure, a kick is justified.

Not to get too far off topic, because I agree, if someone is kicked they should not be able to rejoin the same instanced ID. However it sounds like CT has some other issues on top of that. iLvl requirements and/or being allowed to change gear (that drops iLvl below the requirement) after joining.

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Originally Posted by Fervid

If he's meeting the item level for the dungeon upon entering, then you really have no right to kick him, especially if he's participating. If he changed his gear (thus lowering his ilvl) after joining, then sure, a kick is justified.

Not to get too far off topic, because I agree, if someone is kicked they should not be able to rejoin the same instanced ID. However is sounds like CT has some other issues on top of that. iLvl requirements and/or being allowed to change gear (that drops iLvl below the requirement) after joining.

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Well, unfortunately with the idea of not allowing someone to rejoin an instance it's kind of unfair to lock someone out of content for not doing anything wrong IF the kick is unjustified. Much like in this situation. Why should I be locked out of their CT run because him and his five other FC members decided to kick me because they followed his orders to kick me? At the same time however, you can get abusive players who deserve a kick. It's a lot of work to make a system to cater to all that and it's definitely something that we won't be given which is also unfortunate.

With regards to the ilvl, everything I had equipped was exactly what I had on when I queued. Should I have lowered my ilvl, especially removing items which would decrease my DPS, it goes back to slowing down my own progress so it's not something I wanted to do for myself either. Also, once again, have a like!

If you don't like another players gear, you can quit, you can leave. Quit abusing vote kick system targeting someone with lower gear level. They should absolutely be able to join right back, although it is unclear why they would want to put up with jerk elitist like you.

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Originally Posted by Barboron

Well, unfortunately with the idea of not allowing someone to rejoin an instance it's kind of unfair to lock someone out of content for not doing anything wrong IF the kick is unjustified.

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If the kicking is unjustified, then I would report them for it. Allowing someone to join the same instance they were kicked from totally nullifies the kicking feature.

I agree, if I was kicked for an unfair reason, I would be upset too. But there does need to be a kicking feature, the positives outweigh the negatives.

There will always be people abusing features of the game, you can't blame SE for that.

This sound like your FC was looking for a speedrun and the other tank was new ie the gear and was watching cutscenes ie standing at the boss gate. Another clear violation of kick feature and the tos.

ok I have an issue with this slightly.. if you are doing a raid.. you should not be spirit binding mage equip on a war or crafting equip on anything.. you aren't playing to your fullest and are making the raid more difficult for others... hence the vote kick would be justified.. you should not be allowed to equip or que up in crafting gear or dol gear... its just not fair to those giving the raid their all.. if you want to spiritbind gear that does not reflect your job you can easily do so in a beastmen camp... and not hold others back in a raid.. it is just good manners.

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Originally Posted by Fervid

If the kicking is unjustified, then I would report them for it.

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There's the issue, I contacted the GMs when it happened, explained the situation was purely down to my gear. Got a reply saying they couldn't do anything because I had to discuss it with the party leader. Replied saying it was a DF and finally, I got the most conclusive response of all...the GMs are no longer taking action against vote kick abuse. It's what I have been told from the GM him/herself.

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Originally Posted by Macka

This sound like your FC was looking for a speedrun and the other tank was new ie the gear and was watching cutscenes ie standing at the boss gate. Another clear violation of kick feature and the tos.

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I wasn't new, I knew all the mechanics and knew the fights inside out. Avoided what needed avoiding and killed what needed killing. If I needed to tank, I popped heavy CDs to compensate for the low gear because the mobs were killed quickly.

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

ok I have an issue with this slightly.. if you are doing a raid.. you should not be spirit binding mage equip on a war or crafting equip on anything.. you aren't playing to your fullest and are making the raid more difficult for others... hence the vote kick would be justified.. you should not be allowed to equip or que up in crafting gear or dol gear... its just not fair to those giving the raid their all.. if you want to spiritbind gear that does not reflect your job you can easily do so in a beastmen camp... and not hold others back in a raid.. it is just good manners.

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There was crafting rings, I was wearing the tanking gear apart from that.
[EDIT:] Again, I did rotate my offensive cooldowns and popped enough defensive cooldowns when needed to ensure my DPS was fine. I was still hitting 300-500+ depending on my buffs, if any. I kept the levi axe equipped so as not to totally gimp my DPS. You can still get players in higher gear who don't use cooldowns which will hold people back also. But yes, I will put my hand up and say I was holding back a bit because of my gear but not because of how I played. [/EDIT]

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

ok I have an issue with this slightly.. if you are doing a raid.. you should not be spirit binding mage equip on a war or crafting equip on anything.. you aren't playing to your fullest and are making the raid more difficult for others... hence the vote kick would be justified.. you should not be allowed to equip or que up in crafting gear or dol gear... its just not fair to those giving the raid their all.. if you want to spiritbind gear that does not reflect your job you can easily do so in a beastmen camp... and not hold others back in a raid.. it is just good manners.

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Let's get one thing straight if a piece of gear states all classes and is equipped by a different class you deem unworthy is no way against the game rules and doesn't call for a kick. And if you do kick someone for said reason you are the one abusing the system.

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Originally Posted by Fervid

If he's meeting the item level for the dungeon upon entering, then you really have no right to kick him, especially if he's participating. If he changed his gear (thus lowering his ilvl) after joining, then sure, a kick is justified.

Not to get too far off topic, because I agree, if someone is kicked they should not be able to rejoin the same instanced ID. However it sounds like CT has some other issues on top of that. iLvl requirements and/or being allowed to change gear (that drops iLvl below the requirement) after joining.

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I'd go a step further; if someone is kicked they should have the 30-minute lockout. And anyone saying "no because what if you're kicked unfairly", you already have your ability to report vote kick abuse in those cases. If a person is kicked justly they should be locked out; as it stands right now SE is only encouraging people to do things that will get them kicked in order to avoid leaving and getting the penalty.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I'd go a step further; if someone is kicked they should have the 30-minute lockout. And anyone saying "no because what if you're kicked unfairly", you already have your ability to report vote kick abuse in those cases. If a person is kicked justly they should be locked out; as it stands right now SE is only encouraging people to do things that will get them kicked in order to avoid leaving and getting the penalty.

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So you saying a new player should eat a 30min penalty all because they got kicked for watching a cutscene. Ok, Kevin Hart leave the jokes for your show.

Already said if you get wrongly kicked you have ways to report it.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Already said if you get wrongly kicked you have ways to report it.

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Unfortunately I logged off but the response I got from the GM I contacted is that they would not take action with regards to abuse of the vote kick system. After I reread it, I think the GM stated it being for these disputes which is ridiculous because it would be one of the few reasons people actually kick others. Either way, the argument isn't really sufficient considering the GMs will not do anything about the abuse and players have to take an unjustified penalty.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Already said if you get wrongly kicked you have ways to report it.

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Doesn't change the fact they get penalize for nothing. Would you continue to pay and play if you get penalize for nothing. Not to mention they have most complex reporting system I have ever seen. Most people don't even bother.

Hey guys. The GMs couldn't do anything to the people who did AFK CMs during the early days where you had to grind philo for the darklight gear. So I doubt anything be done here.

If you don't like what you see in pugs. Make a pre-made.

Just learn from this and move on guys. They don't really care when they already got your sub money LOL.:p

Hmm. So the GMs won't actually do anything? Well, that sets an awesome precedent for future vote kick abuse. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Macka

Let's get one thing straight if a piece of gear states all classes and is equipped by a different class you deem unworthy is no way against the game rules and doesn't call for a kick. And if you do kick someone for said reason you are the one abusing the system.

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What a ridiculous statement.
If someone walks into a instance wearing crafting gear mixed in with their tank gear that would be deemed okay and not THEM abusing the system?
If someone is undergeared and is equipped with the best equipment they can slot I would say kicking them is abuse.
If they are asking people to carry them through a zone so that they can SB gear then they are abusing the system.

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Originally Posted by Gnova

What a ridiculous statement.
If someone walks into a instance wearing crafting gear mixed in with their tank gear that would be deemed okay and not THEM abusing the system?
If someone is undergeared and is equipped with the best equipment they can slot I would say kicking them is abuse.
If they are asking people to carry them through a zone so that they can SB gear then they are abusing the system.

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Do the gear say crafting only? No. Did the person meet ilevel requirements? Yes. Did the person ask to be carried? No. When you vote to kick someone is there choice for wearing the wrong gear? No. So again if you kick someone for wearing "crafting" gear you are in fact abusing the vote kick function of this game. No matter how you try to twist it.

By the way, just because he was in the instance doesn't mean the gear he was SBing met the minimum requirements. Lots of people use to que for CT in their regular gear, then once they got in switched to SBing gear.

Using CT to SB gear use to be a huge problem when it was "the" dungeon for tome grinding. I never ended up kicking anyone for it, but I saw LOTS of people kick them. I can't say that I was against them getting kicked either, since the majority of them purposely died or got locked out of bosses in order to do the least amount of work as possible. Most of them were simply leeches looking to get carried for tomes and gil.

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Originally Posted by Elim

By the way, just because he was in the instance doesn't mean the gear he was SBing met the minimum requirements. Lots of people use to que for CT in their regular gear, then once they got in switched to SBing gear.

Using CT to SB gear use to be a huge problem when it was "the" dungeon for tome grinding. I never ended up kicking anyone for it, but I saw LOTS of people kick them. I can't say that I was against them getting kicked either, since the majority of them purposely died or got locked out of bosses in order to do the least amount of work as possible. Most of them were simply leeches looking to get carried for tomes and gil.

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We are talking about 2 different things. This person eas moving and attacking and got kicked because of their gear.

if the bosses are are going down, and the guy isn't getting splatted ... What the crap is the problem?

Seriously, It looks entirely to me like the guy who got kicked was doing the right thing, and the one who kicked him just wanted the fastest possible run and didn't want to be "held back" by even a few seconds.

Spirit Binding is a thing in the game. He was utilizing a mechanic of the game in a normal way. He did nothing wrong, he only offended the one who kicked him by not wearing min/max best gear for an ilvl 55 raid. A raid which is stupidly easy.

And finally, If you take a person wearing ilvl 55 gear in every slot, and a person with missing gear but still at an average i55, Their primary stats will be identical.

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Originally Posted by Elikitts

Again, ilvl 55 is all you need to be. There is no rule in this game that says you must gear for x stat.

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Although you are technically right, it definitely goes against the spirit of the game. For some reason people seem to think anything goes when they join an instance via DF. If you joined a Leviathan Extreme group on Party Finder to find someone in totally class inappropriate gear who gave the excuse "just spiritbinding yo!" Would you applaud their moxy also? Or would you leave the instance immediately and boot the freeloader once they refused to switch gear?

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Originally Posted by Akujin

Hmm. So the GMs won't actually do anything? Well, that sets an awesome precedent for future vote kick abuse. Please look forward to it.

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GM does anything?

Filed a GM call while standing beside a bot, nothing happens.
Filed a GM call due to lost loot in coil, replies can't do anything and to file bug report so that they can monitor from there and assist. Didn't even bother to acknowledge the bug report (and tons of reports left rotting in bug forums too).

What do they really do other than sending template replies to your GM calls?

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Although you are technically right, it definitely goes against the spirit of the game. For some reason people seem to think anything goes when they join an instance via DF. If you joined a Leviathan Extreme group on Party Finder to find someone in totally class inappropriate gear who gave the excuse "just spiritbinding yo!" Would you applaud their moxy also? Or would you leave the instance immediately and boot the freeloader once they refused to switch gear?

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The difference is that CT is stupid easy and can be done in the crafted gear. for everything except for tanks a large portion of your performance is based on your weapon which the person you quoted certainly is more than well off as they have allagan/animus.

Also to above poster: GMs have responded to my harassment calls several times so chances are they don't respond to your stuff immediately because it takes a lot more investigating to prove legitimacy. For harassment usually they just have to peek at chat logs.

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Originally Posted by Gnova

What a ridiculous statement.
If someone walks into a instance wearing crafting gear mixed in with their tank gear that would be deemed okay and not THEM abusing the system?
If someone is undergeared and is equipped with the best equipment they can slot I would say kicking them is abuse.
If they are asking people to carry them through a zone so that they can SB gear then they are abusing the system.

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Before the OP decided to edit his post he had admitted to using crafting rings, which is what I was doing. My gear, other than that consisted heavily of tanking and DPS gear. I didn't ask to be carried, I kept up with DPS and OTing should it have called for it. Again, I don't know why people seem to be udner the conception that people spiritbinding will want to progress any less, if I don't get kills, I don't get my % up.

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Originally Posted by Elim

By the way, just because he was in the instance doesn't mean the gear he was SBing met the minimum requirements. Lots of people use to que for CT in their regular gear, then once they got in switched to SBing gear.

Using CT to SB gear use to be a huge problem when it was "the" dungeon for tome grinding. I never ended up kicking anyone for it, but I saw LOTS of people kick them. I can't say that I was against them getting kicked either, since the majority of them purposely died or got locked out of bosses in order to do the least amount of work as possible. Most of them were simply leeches looking to get carried for tomes and gil.

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I mentiopned previously, everything I had equipped during the CT run is what I had equipped when I pressed join on the DF. For those interested, my ilvl was 62. Mainly because I think my weapon brought it up, the wave axe or tidal wave sword depending on which tank I choose. This, again was to keep up my DPS.

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Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Although you are technically right, it definitely goes against the spirit of the game. For some reason people seem to think anything goes when they join an instance via DF. If you joined a Leviathan Extreme group on Party Finder to find someone in totally class inappropriate gear who gave the excuse "just spiritbinding yo!" Would you applaud their moxy also? Or would you leave the instance immediately and boot the freeloader once they refused to switch gear?

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I previously replied to OP on this after he complained about having to MT everything. I did have my end game gear with me, bringing me to i92 WAR or i93 PLD. I had faith that he could tank, or that someone else could. Don't get me wrong though, I didn't just sit around and auto-attack as OP claimed. I mainly went in as WAR so I could keep up my DPS and not be a complete burden.

Finally, I will use the argument to say that even if I was not at my best because of my gear, I am not the only person holding someone back in CT. First room, still have people positioning mobs the wrong way. Room two, people don't tend to stun/silence the eyes and Diras. First boss, people still over DPS the dragon. Room 4, with the platforms, that's actually going okay. Second boss was also. Third boss, people still don't take down the bombs in time. All of which, even with my lower level gear, still did all this. I killed what needed to be killed because I knew what had to be done and still tried my best with what I had. Unfortunately, I am not going to have the DPS or a BRD, DRG, or a MNK so killing those bombs was just out of the question for me alone. I went in knowing the mechanics. Should none of the other tanks be able to hold aggro, remain alive, or just flat out not be able to tank for some reason, I would have been more than happy to step in, as I previously stated.