I've just hit lvl 40 on my SCH and its fun and all but i want to try a dps. But from what have heard is that the duty finder for dps takes way longer then it does for healers. So i just wanna know if its really that bad. Also i wanted to make a Dragoon but i think there are too many of them out there. Should i still try making one? (and one more thing if i do make one do i have to grind fates?) Sorry if i posted in wrong section, was thinking i should post it here.
How is it like being a DPS?
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05-08-2014, 09:52 AMDAYvonteHow is it like being a DPS?
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05-08-2014, 09:59 AMDelief200
While the que times are bad sometimes, it is fun being a DPS. Its fun not having to worry about a lot of the mechanics to healing and tanking that make those stressful if you don't do it perfectly. Its fun that if you make a mistake in your rotation its very likely no one is going to notice it and it doesn't cause any lasting damage (unless you're on Titan HM Heart Phase, then you might be in trouble :P). Its fun just seeing big numbers.
There are moments when you need to know what you're doing and need to take everything seriously but mostly being a DPS is just fun. :) -
05-08-2014, 10:04 AMSeraviEdalborez
There are not too many DPS players. There are too many bad DPS players.
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05-08-2014, 09:49 PMRikkustrife
Well you can play whatever you wish to play.
Dragoon is the coolest looking of the DPS, I think anyways, and will only get cooler when they add breath attacks.
Dragoon and Monk are hardest to play.
DPS I find is the hardest to play, easiest to play adequately, but hardest to play optimally.
With dragoon, if the tank likes to move the enemy around you will have a hard time, because of needing to hit from the side to increase damage, and from the back to continue a combo.
Lately they have gotten better with that though, rarely see a tank who keeps turning the enemy.
I think you should try dragoon, it's fun and has a lot going on.
As for queue times, it has not been as bad for me as people say, usually within 5 minutes for roulette, around 10-15 for specific dungeon -
05-08-2014, 10:16 PMSummerRider
Um You've got a level 40 SCH right?
Doesn't that mean you leveled from 16-30 in the DPS queue as an Arcanist? Until you picked up the SCH job you were in the DPS queue.
In answer to your question an example of my experience as a BLM. I've been using DF to farm Brayflox (Hard) to get Soldery, and Mythology. Assuming I get on after work and go from 6-10 PM in game time and I queue back up for the dungeon after I finish one. I consider it lucky if it pops 3 times.
In the downtime while waiting for it to pop, I've gotten my arcanist up to level 29 or 30. So only 4 more levels, and then I get to switch and level up archer to 34. Fun fun. -
05-08-2014, 11:41 PMChaozK
Its worthing mentioning that as of 2.25, they split the queue times for ranged and melee dps. So if you queue as DRG or MNK your time will be rather short, most of the time under 5 min, so pretty close to the healer queues, while ranged dps takes upwards of 10-20 mins most of the time.
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05-08-2014, 11:46 PMCaiera
Yeah DD's do have a rough time compared to Healers and Tanks as there are a lot more of them,
If I pug it, I usually go with all Languages and In Progress Duties, this usually brings the time down quite a bit -
05-09-2014, 04:29 AMLollie
From an comparrable standpoint mnk or drg would be a great choice from sch. They both have cross class skills that will be a foundation for other classes and the closer to the mob perspective can be quite eye opening as to the difficulty of it so I am told from long time healers. Queues will not be terrible on dungeons as mentioned above they now consider melee and ranged separatly in queues. Usually no longer then 10 minutes for me recently.
I would not suggest blm as your first dd. There are many who belittle them as having the easiest skillset. I would go as far to say when done properly they have the most difficult execution. A great blm probably knows any fight better than any other job out there. This coming from a non-blm just to avoid those who would call bias. -
05-09-2014, 04:36 AMAlyssaFhey
Que times are bad, there's definitely discrimination against anyone not playing smn, blm, or bard. Most other dps players are shit therefore you're always blamed for any mess ups at all.
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05-10-2014, 03:39 PMKarilynYes and No and Yes. It can be pretty bad-ish... it can be significantly less bad if you're less picky about what dungeon you are queuing for, or queuing for something popular. I'm inclined to DPS queue while making dinner and/or do dailies and/or browse imgur or forums. Pickiness is the bane of your existence when it comes to queues.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAYvonte
There are too many Dragoons, but there's an extreme shortage of good Dragoons. For whatever reason people want to speculate, Dragoons on average play noticeably worse than other DPSers. Good Dragoons are hard to find and in my opinion, highly desirable. That opinion is not a common opinion, but I stand by it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DAYvonte
As someone who has tanked for 12 years, who is just playing a DPS for the first time, I really really really feel this is wrong. Especially in this game, tanks tend to have less mechanics to deal with than DPSers and Healers do, and generally feel like the most forgiving of mistakes of the three roles due to having the most HP and healers prioritizing healing you, even with the incoming boss melee damage. You take avoidable damage as a tank, you'll get healed first; you take avoidable damage as a DPS, better hope the healer finds time for you before the next unavoidable damage comes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delief200
Yeah you gotta use cooldowns for those Mountain Busters and what not, but since most defensive cooldowns have a 12-20 second duration to get it up before you take the hit, you have an absurdly higher margin of error in timing your defensive cooldown.
Threat is a complete and utter non-issue on a single target after the first 10-20 seconds if you have even the most basic levels of competency. PLDs have a bit more difficulty with multi-mobs, as Flash spam isn't very good, but it's still trivial up to 3 mobs with basic tab targeting 101 even if most Duty Roulette Paladins don't seem to be able to handle it.
Tank DPS rotations (for after you've gotten enough threat that you can AFK the rest of the fight) are dirt simple and have no room for improvement or maximizing of damage. But, as I understand it, for most if not all the DPS classes, there is a seemingly endless stream of tricks that allow you to get just 1% more DPS out of yourself. Which might not seem like much, until you start stacking them all together across all 4 DPS in a raid, and then next thing you know between all of ya'll ya'll are doing an extra half a DPSers damage.
This just might be bias of being experienced talking, but I generally have to pay more attention as DPS than as a Tank 90% of the time.
Okay sure there's fights where you have to deal with issues like Spiny Plumes which are tank unique, but I've seen easily 10 times as many wipes due to DPSers taking avoidable damage and/or dying, and/or not putting out enough DPS due to sloppy play, and/or drawing so much healing away from the tank due to taking avoidable damage hits that the tank dies or some bullshit. I notice a great deal of DPSers tend not to realize that they were taking avoidable damage unless they are sitting at low health for a long time; as long as it's healed up in 5-10 seconds, they often never notice they took damage in the first place. Especially in PUGs I'll see people claim stuff like "Well I must've been doing good because I didn't die," when they took tens of thousands of avoidable damage before the group wiped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delief200
DPSing is probably the hardest role in this game, unless the DPSers are playing their role as if it was the easiest role in the game, in which case Healing becomes the hardest role in the game.
Whether healing is harder or easier than DPSing seems to come down almost exclusively to whether or not the DPSers are taking their job seriously.
Ehhhhhh I find melee easier to play than caster even though I've been focusing on caster lately. Whether or not you find melee or caster easier largely depends on how comfortable you are with moving around; I find caster harder because moving comes very naturally to me, and casting tempts me far too often to try and complete that last 0.1s of a cast before moving and occasionally catches me dead, which NEVER happens when I play melee. Also doesn't hurt that melee can attack while moving; they have almost as much ease of mobility as Bards. YMMV. I like to think of Melee as Bards with less range. Just pewpewing away without a care in the world. The fact that an accidental movement won't break my spellcast also tends to make me a bit lighter on my feet as melee, and prone to faster reaction to avoidable damage mechanics. I typically find myself repeatedly tapping my movement button in the direction I need to run when I know an AOE is coming when I'm playing melee, which improves my reaction speed, and I can't do that as caster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkustrife
That being said, Tank moving the enemy around sucks, and you have to basically be Dragoon Jesus to actually land your Heavy Thrust under those circumstances. But 90% of the time if the tank is moving around like a hyperactive squirrel on it's 10th cup of coffee made from Mexican jumping coffee beans, if you just politely ask the tank to stand still and explain how mob movement drastically lowers your damage output, they'll stand still for you. And of course for virtually any endgame fight this isn't going to be a problem; it's more a duty roulette dungeon quirk.
IIRC Melee and Ranged have different queues from one another, and melee queues are usually a fair 1/3rd the length of time. It might just be coincidence, but it REALLY feels like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikkustrife
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05-11-2014, 01:33 AMgivemeraptorsYou have got my upvote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
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05-11-2014, 06:31 AMItseotleThis is a really good summery. I've been playing Dragoon since release, and am currently progressing coil turn 8 (high-end game) and I have so much fun playing my class, but it is work as well. Karilyn hit a lot of excellent points, especially about the strive for improvement. As a Tank or Healer, as long as your doing your job correctly, there is very little room for improvement. You won't tank better because your standing five more feet to the left, and you won't heal any better simply by buffing "better", but as a DPS there are hundreds of little details that you could do to improve your role in the group. For example, say your tank also has a tendency to pull a mob a certain direction. You as a DPS can learn to anticipate his movements so you can maintain your uptime and not lose any DPS. Another example is learning boss rotations and knowing the duration of your own cooldowns and abilities in relation in order to maximize uptime. For example, as DRG, my Blood for Blood usually comes up about 20 seconds before Heart Phase on Titan. In this fight, even though we are supposed to "spam" our cooldowns, I know to hold onto it because Titan will be un-attackable before the buff wears off. Its just full of many tricks in order to be a better player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
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05-11-2014, 11:37 PMMegidololQuote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
You take avoidable damage as a tank and you die and wipe the raid. You take avoidable damage as a dps, you run around and get healed after a second or two, while the healers and tanks are praying you can manage to avoid another avoidable aoe within that 2 second window.
And if you didnt, here's a res. There's only 2 more left now.
/provoke -
05-12-2014, 04:41 AMKarilynI've played a tank for 12 years across multiple games; that whole "Oh no it's so scary the boss is attacking me, I have to be so much tougher than everyone else" bullshit isn't going to work on me like it does on a lot of DPSers. I know that bullshit, I used to play that line too. But the reality is, the most recent boss I'm aware of in any MMO that was a serious test of tank survivability was Brutallus, 6 fucking years ago. Blizzard's Wrath of the Lich King ushered in an era of easy tanking, and every other MMO has crumpled before Blizzard's design philosophy regarding tanks, including FF14 (My god threat is so piss easy, why is threat so piss easy?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido
But about FF14 specifically:
On most fights, avoidable damage as a tank is surprisingly eatable due to having A LOT more HP, dodge, and defense, and tanks receiving priority healing. You're the only player who has Adloquium cast on you (and usually the only player with Regan too; don't forget, Regan is 3 times stronger than Medica II's HoT), so you get a shield twice as large as anyone else, and that's without Adloquium critting, and that shield is further affected by your higher damage reduction.
It also doesn't hurt that you take less damage from unavoidable damage. I just grabbed a video from Youtube of Titan Extreme healed by Double White Mages to use as a benchmark:
Code:Titan's Ultimate: Earthen Fury
No Scholar, No Shields, No Damage Reduction Buffs on any player
Class | MaxHP -> CurHP = Damage = HP Loss
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White Mage | 4395 -> 978 = 3417 = 77.8%
Paladin | 6883 -> 4713 = 2170 = 31.5%
Warrior | 8818 -> 6091 = 2727 = 30.9%
White Mage | 4627 -> 1381 = 3246 = 70.2%
Black Mage | 4337 -> 1414 = 3165 = 73.0%
Bard | 5105 -> 1536 = 3691 = 72.3%
Dragoon | 5014 -> 1402 = 3702 = 72.5%
Monk | 4828 -> 1489 = 3339 = 69.2%
And take a wild guess who was the only player in the raid with Regan on her?
I mean damn, the Tanks could've taken a theoretical three fucking simultanious Ultimates without dying. The next most durable character in that raid would've been sitting at -5189HP (-107.5% HP). The least durable character at -5856HP (-133.2% HP). Every other character would've died TWICE before the tanks died even once.
And all this STILL comes into play before factoring in Regan, Adloquium, and having a dedicated healer 90% of the time to babysit you.
And that sorta ridiculous damage reduction applies to tanks eating avoidable damage too. Most bosses in this game do NOT melee remotely close to hard enough to make most avoidable damage the same sorta threat to a tank that it is to DPSers. The only avoidable damage that'll insta-fuck you as a tank is the same avoidable damage that will insta-fuck DPS (lolLandslide)
If you still don't believe me, consider this: The prevailing strategy on Titan Extreme is that if a Bomb Boulder spawns on top of the tank, that SHE SHOULD SIT THERE AND EAT IT. BECAUSE THE TANK CAN EAT IT WITHOUT RISK OF DEATH AND NOBODY ELSE CAN.
DISCLAIMER: As I am a tank of 12 years, not a healer of 12 years (and additional disclaimer: I'm kinda awful at healing), I'm less confident on this specific subject, but I'll tackle it anyway... If I'm wrong a healer can correct me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido
*takes a deep breath* Here we go!
In case you were unaware, to heal a DPS who took avoidable damage, you usually have to not heal someone else. On a fight like Titan you can use an AOE heal because the arena is small and players are stacked. On other fights players spread out or run around more which means the healer may be forced to use a single target heal. Nothing like 2 DPS on opposites sides of an Arena taking damage, the tank needing healing too, and unavoidable damage is coming in 3-4 seconds.
This attitude is toxic and the reason behind 90% of wipes in PUGs. DPSers dropping like flies is unacceptable. It's stressful to healers. It takes healing away from players who aren't dying. Healers might have to wait for a gap in damage to Raise, resulting in a substancial DPS loss. And after you're raised, you STILL have to be healed back up, further taking healing away from other players who need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megido
And in case you didn't notice, you can Swiftcast-Raise tanks too, and if a tank DOES die, guess who's getting priority Raise without delay while the other tank Provokes the boss? (Okay shit like that doesn't work on fights where both tanks are tanking different things, but that's beside the point). Healers don't wait for a gap in damage to Raise a Tank like they do to Raise a DPS.
There's a reason why so many DPSers are so fucking horrible. Because statements like yours are giving players permission to be bad, excusing their poor behavior, saying it doesn't matter. Then people wonder why they can't find DPS that doesn't suck. The first step to improving the DPS population is shattering the myth that DPSing is so easy and doesn't matter WTF you do as long as you're a warm body. Because it was true back in Everquest or Molten Core, but it isn't fucking true anymore, and all you have to do is go wipe in PUGs for an hour and count the number of wipes which were caused by shitty DPS, and the falsehood of the myth becomes as plain as day.
There's a reason I bolded and underlined this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
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05-12-2014, 06:23 AMKirinichibon
DPS all the way until the very end game is a cake walk. Raiding DPS, depending on the fight mechanic's role, can be either boring, stressful, or super fun...or some combination.
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05-12-2014, 07:55 AMsubteraneanbird
I disagree with the assertion that DPS is the hardest role, for multiple reasons. While I agree with you on the part that healers generally focus on the tank, that doesn't mean "not getting hurt" is specific to DPS. Healers can't get hurt either and unlike yall I have way less methods of avoiding this. I have zero positionals like Jumps or Shoulder Tackle or Repelling Shot or Aetherial Manipulation. I don't have any off-GCD ways to recover from a mistake like Life Surge or Second Wind or Featherfoot or Foresight, except for Benediction which is on a 5 minute cooldown and has a delay more significant than most other skills. Additionally, as you yourself helped demonstrate, my vitality and defenses are the worst across the board. I have much less room for error and much fewer ways to fix those errors than any other role. And I can't necessarily just heal myself after, because that also pulls heals away. I think your understanding of triage (a skill that only incredible healers master, and one that takes a long time) boils down to "tank first, DPS last" which is frankly incredibly ignorant. There are times when it ISN'T safe to get off the tank, but I HAVE to heal other people. I have to make that sort of decision a lot, and trust that my tank is competent enough to understand my situation and act accordingly. And surprise, not many of them do because they don't play healers.
Another point is this: DPS can coast, healers can't. Unless there's a Big Ass DPS Check in your face at that very moment, you can be doing the most inane ineffective shit nearly constantly, and because of your low visibility (there are many more DPS than healers, it is harder to notice+easier to explain away low damage vs low heals or low threat) you're not likely to ever get called out. I've seen DPS who stand around and spam singular moves over and over, or not even that. Sometimes they don't even bother to auto attack. Does that mean they're good? Absolutely not. But with how fights in this game are tuned, many fights are still handily won despite that setback. If I perform an equivalent action (like using medica 2, waiting for it to tick out, using it again) in most cases the run is already over because that is ridiculously useless. Both groups have lulls and spikes in activity, but my lulls are shorter and even during them I'm expected to do more. I have more responsibility and less people to carry me through them.
I also hold contention with "rotations are hard" because there's a lot in your favor with them. Maybe I'd believe you if you had to scour through Eorzea, fighting beings most foul to get your hands on a Tomestone that says "After Impulse Drive, follow up with Disembowel!" but that's not the case. Even if you're incapable of putting rotations together yourself given the info the game gives you, other people have already and once you verify their numbers are right and it is a good rotation, it entirely becomes rote memorization and pushing a sequence of buttons with very little to interrupt you. The major interruptions I can think of (ie, not avoidable damage because that usually stops you for a few seconds at most) are adds (in which case the response is "do your rotation" or "do your other rotation, you know, the one that hits more things") or the boss just leaves for a bit (in which case the response is to come onto S-E Forums and yell about fix levi ex pls because my numberz). Healers don't have the advantage of a rotation. We have to play the entire fight by ear, having a vague knowledge of what happens next. Maybe I'm expecting a fairly weak hit on the tank and take that moment to heal the party. But whoops. Critical! Shieldbro Mcmeatwall suffered a whole lot of extra damage! Now I have to, at that moment, re-evaluate my actions. I have to do this constantly. I don't get the privilege of knowing my next action most of the time, like rotation users do. I can't plan ahead nearly as easily. Even the non-rotation based DPS (bard and summoner) use a priority system that amounts to what I do as a healer, but with less punishment for making a mistake (a lower DPS vs a player death or even a wipe).
Even socially healers are at the bottom. DPS have their DPS Solidarity. Due to the high numbers of them, bad ones can easily congregate together and stick up for each other. I've seen runs where multiple DPS played and behaved horribly and when called out defended each other. Even though the DPS population means they're fairly expendable, it also means that any baddie can yell about how they're the victim and have a whole chorus to back them up. Tanks on the other hand, enjoy enormous social power. They have near instant queues. They have the most say in parties, because "tanking is hard" (even though several of us here know that isn't the case), and also due to their relative rarity. Healers get none of that. We have decent queue times, yes, but people aren't afraid to pick fights with us because we're easier to find and because there's more people who think they understand healing without actually doing it than any other role. Hell, even when we act out we're treated differently. Tanks and DPS are often seen as masculine, either being a tough strong guy by standing up to people, or at least given the dignity of being acknowledged as assholes. What do healers get? We get to be called princesses (a very popular word on this very forum) or drama queens. We're not given any sort of respect. Everyone thinks they know our job. Everyone thinks that our complaints, valid or not, are us being drama queens.
Am I saying DPS is easy? Nope. What I'm saying is everything you claim makes DPS hard is either 1) actually not or 2) harder on healers. Just like a DpS, I have to keep my output at a good consistent level, except with less room for execution errors, bigger punishments for making mistakes, less tools to help me perform my job, less longevity ( a DPS who runs out of MP/TP will lose a lot of output, but a lower DPS output is recoverable, hence partly why summoners are first in line for raise. A stark drop in healing output is often a slow agonizing wipe), less social power, less understanding from other people. I acknowledge that playing as a top DPS is challenging. So is playing a top healer. Maybe you're thinking I sound a bit bitter. I am a bit bitter! I have every right to be! I have spent my entire time playing this game, taking on an incredibly challenging role. I've learned a lot, practiced a lot, become legitimately good. I've worked my ass off to get where I am. I'm not a top healer. I'd rate myself in the "pretty good" area at best. And the amount of effort it took to get me this far is astronomical. So, excuse me for being a bit tired of hearing the same trite shit over and over. About how I'm an over-glorified tank babysitter. About how hard it is to learn a rotation QQ. About how "I can't eat damage" when I ALSO can't but at the same time am expected to pick up after you when you do mess up. About how I'm frequently expected to help pass DPS checks because someone's AFK or just spamming Full Thrust. About how i'm playing what I genuinely think is an incredibly challenging (but rewarding) role, and getting nothing but shit for it. I'm sick and tired of people thinking they know the challenges I and other healers face without once having been in our shoes. Healing is legitimately tough. You have pressures equal to or greater than the other roles, with none of the fringe benefits. Frankly I'd state that healing is by far the toughest role, and people who pretend otherwise either don't know better or are intentionally being dishonest for whatever reason.
But, beyond that big ass rant, here is what being a DPS is like: It's pretty alright. It can be boring sometimes (bigger waits, often a simplistic sequence to push where Yoshida pops out of the screen and tells you to hit C for double damage, not a whole lot of investment in what's happening unless there's a big glowing Kill This Now event happening) but it'll push you in certain ways that the other roles won't. What it isn't is incredibly difficult. There's a fair amount of challenge yes, but a lot of it is negated by knowing all the tools at your disposal, which is graciously provided by plenty of online resources, including this very forum. "Not being a dummy" could be a second part to that, but many DPS do their role at an acceptable level while failing that, so maybe not. I've said my piece on this matter. -
05-12-2014, 08:29 AMKrr
Let's all count the number of fights we've won with that one dragoon mashing Full Thrust uncomboed. Or in spite of that Bard who thinks he's hot stuff and can judge the rest of the party's performance while underclocking by over 50%. Let's count the number of real wipes that causes in an encounter.
Let's call count the number of fights we've won with that one White Mage only spamming Medica and hollering "SHROUD IS AN AGGRO MANAGEMENT TOOL" while out of MP with a tank dying. Let's count the number of real wipes that were caused by two idiot scholars stepping on each others' toes with Adloquium while neglecting an OT or the rest of the party or even each other while their Eos' spam unmicroed Fey Illumination right on top of each other.
Talk about skill ceilings all you want, but healing has the highest skill floor in the game. Until top level content, DPS can coast and all tanks need to know is to press 1-2-3 and not drive the mob car directly into the party. -
05-12-2014, 10:41 AMSygmaelleIts quite the opposite. Havin an extremely aware and dps oriented healer combined with a tank that isn't afraid to drop his shield oath, lower his hp and all the like, that are able to do speed runs is quite the most demanding thing.Quote:
As a Tank or Healer, as long as your doing your job correctly, there is very little room for improvement.
Knowin all the ways to prevent X damage from X attack from every single boss in this game while dpsin all the time, jugglin but not too much with the life of your tank is pretty harder than just optimisin your movement / rotation / buff usage on a melee character
There's MORE buffs to use on healers. There's MORE to consider at any given time, than just blood for blood and internal release + usin your escape tool if you need to.
There's a lot more down to timing your shit properly as a healer while beein able to stance dance like a champ. It is harder than dpsing.
And I definitely recommend to actively play both so any player do know a fight in its integrity so he can be aware of how to be a part of a very fluid fight / not havin tunnel vision which is crucial.
Best part is : when you re good at healin and dpsin, you ll be an awesome tank too. Period. -
05-12-2014, 12:48 PMPooky_PashaI find this statement laughable, simply because all roles in this game are extremely easy if you 1) have decent hand-eye coordination, 2) understand the mechanics of your job, 3) understand the mechanics of the fight, and 4) can put 1-3 together into a complete package. Being bad a role doesn't make the role harder than the others. It's usually just because that person is bad at that job, while they could excel at another job with a different role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
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05-12-2014, 01:34 PMKarilynI can definitely agree with that, though I feel a ton of that is just due to lazy DPSers. Every now and then I'll heal a group where all the DPSers aren't taking avoidable damage, and I could almost fall asleep with how easy it is. Healing's difficulty feels very very strongly tied to how much everyone else sucks or doesn't suck. By a very wide margin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krr
For the most part, I'm only talking top level content. Minimum of Extreme Modes and First Coil, and maybe Ultima Weapon Hard. I feel it's poor judgement to discuss a class based on how it performs at low levels, unless it's specifically being requested, and I don't think OP was asking for that. So yeah for all my posts, unless stated otherwise, I'm talking about top level content, because that's really the only content where difficulty makes any difference. I'm also comparing what a good player of one class has to do relative to a good player of another class. Not about the ability of one class to carry other people who are sucking; at high level I make a reasonable assumption that you're trying to group up with others who are performing at least acceptably basic competency. So "that one dragoon mashing Full Thrust uncomboed" doesn't really play into my argument because frankly at that point, you might as well be 7 manning the dungeon. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask basic competency out of players, and chose to never again associate with players who can't manage at least a basic copy+paste rotation off of the Internet and avoid at least 80% of random shit flying around in fights. That's sorta, my bare bones minimum tolerable play, and thus anything worse than that doesn't figure into my considerations as I'll never play with such people more than once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krr
Sooooooo... Yeah... but I'll discuss low level stuff anyway. At low level stuff, DPS can coast the most, that's true. But especially as a Scholar, unless you're dealing with the most supreme ungodly idiocy you can just AFK your way through stuff with Fairy healing. Even as a White Mage, 90% of the time I'm just three button healing. Focus Target Cure Macro, Medica, and occasional Esuna. Unless I'm stuck with some extreme nonsense like a tank in something like Stone Vigil wearing level 20 Scalemail, I just don't have to pay attention because nothing is ever at serious risk of dying. Below level 50, as long as every character is wearing gear remotely appropriate for their level, there isn't a class in the game that can't coast through dungeons borderline AFK; tanks, healers and DPS alike. And even after 50, the first thing that presents even an iota of challenge is Ultima Weapon Hard.
Maybe pre-50, tanking is /slightly/ harder than DPS, but that's only because you have to /gasp/ press the tab key inbetween your single target attacks every once in a while if you're not a Warrior. So it's really like saying cream puffs are harder than marshmallows. It's only correct in the most technical of sense, but both are still faceroll coasting easy, and so is healing if nobody is mindblowingly undergeared. Healing is probably harder than both at low levels, but ehhhhhhhh it's still easy. You just have the highest capacity of the 3 rolls to carry the fuck out of extraordinarily bad players; then and only then does low level healing become difficult.
Starting around Ultima Weapon Hard is really where DPSing and Healing starts to become very noticeably harder than tanking, in such a way that you'd have to be incredibly ignorant of what Healers and DPS need to do if you think tanking is harder. And at that point, Healing difficulty increases logarithmically as the DPSers perform worse and worse, starting off somewhat easier than DPSers if DPS is performing perfectly, and becoming far far far harder, to outright impossible, if DPS is getting hit by too much shit.
EDIT: Subteraneanbird, I decided to fully address the second half of your post, dealing with the social elements, in an entire separate post, because I feel you deserve to be listened to and that half is a wildly different subject than what I addressed in the rest of this post, and you DESERVE to have a post entirely dedicated to being listened to the social problems. The rest of this post is only going to address the purely mechanical elements; if you don't care about that, you can skip to my next post, where I spend less time explaining and more time listening.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
That's entirely 100% reasonably fair. I am a /bad/ healer. It is a skill I have always struggled with, and thus I admitted I didn't know what I was talking about for a healer's perspective. I can accept that healers sometimes are forced to unsafely heal others besides the tank. I don't think this necessarily invalidates my statement that DPS playing badly makes a healer's job more difficult, as it is my understanding that DPSers playing badly would force you to make such difficult decisions on a more frequent basis. And that DPSer sloppy play has a very powerful (albeit indirect) influence on the outcome of a fight due to forcing healers to make such decisions more often. But I fully and openly admit my shallow understanding of healing, and bow to your greater knowledge and skill and authority on the subject.
As a tank I would be especially interested in any tips in this regard. I know I'm inclined to throw extra cooldowns on myself if the raid as a whole is taking a ton of damage, or a DPSer needs to be raised. I'm not exactly sure what other things as a tank I can do to help a taxed healer other than that, and am fully open to any tips in that regard.
I tend to stare at the party's health bars more than is healthy to do as a tank; in part because there's SOOOO few things for me to do while tanking, so the low visibility thing is something you can never really get away with in a raid of mine. That's part of why I'm so insistent on how many wipes are caused, at the very least indirectly, by DPSers taking too much damage, and overtaxing healers. Healers are mortals too, they shouldn't be expected to carry DPSers through sloppy play. Raiding is a team effort, and asking DPSers to put in a tiny bit more effort, so that Healing's difficulty drops to sane levels, is very reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
Besides, staring at party health bars helps me be able to give better, more custom fitted advice to individuals who are struggling with specific mechanics; I feel that discussing with individuals specific things they are struggling with, is more beneficial than a vague generic raid-wide "Do better, I know you can, I believe in you, one more time guys!" Square please nerf threat and throw more mechanics for tanks to deal with so I can AFK less please even though I know it'll never happen. Shit's so easy I'm tired of falling asleep at the keyboard.
I hold contention with this, though I might be biased because I play Black Mage. At least for Black Mages, it's only not-hard if you aren't min-maxing out your damage; the theoretical maximum DPS is delightfully difficult to achieve, and I'm highly attracted to the skill challenge involved in it. More than just that, Umbra Ice and Astral Fire are so bizarre that, while I eventually managed through extensive research to wheedle out the best rotations, and double-check the math myself, there's still an insane amount of misinformation on both Reddit and these forums, and even in major popular guides, with the correct information often harder to find (dat spreadsheet, so sexy).Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
Probably the worst is the endless posts on this forum and Reddit where people claim that the best AOE rotation is Astral 3 then Fire II until you're low mana then Flaring and transposing, even though the math has been endlessly laid out showing that it's by a wide margin superior to immediately Flare into Transpose, ignoring Fire II entirely, and only Fire IIing as your Spell Speed will allow when Transpose is on Cooldown and not a single Fire II more. Even just posting this paragraph will probably cause at least one person to angrily reply, insisting that Fire IIing all your mana is superior. And all that ignores the Mana Tick Double Flare Glitch, that maybe 10% of Black Mages know about and even fewer do. You can probably click through every single "Is my Black Mage Rotation correct?" and see 2-4 people per thread insisting on the Fire II AOE rotation, even though we have the Ultimate Black Mage Resource thread on this very forum. It's ridiculous. I'll go through a thread, even on this forum, and see 70% of the people in the thread advocating suboptimal rotations.
As for the deliciously skill-challenging min-maxy persuit of theoretical max DPS... that basically factors in a ton of bizarre mana-tick min-maxing you can do. The Mana Tick Double Flare Glitch is fun and all (And it certainly adds some fun skill to see how accurately and consistently you can count out 2.25 seconds, within an accuracy range that has to be hit of about a quarter second. It's harder than you think, especially when dodging deadly things, and especially factoring in that the 2.25 seconds doesn't start from the end of your spellcast but at the next mana tick, which is variable.). But there's even more bizarre little min-maxy things you can do every single time you hit Umbra Ice, because you have to pay attention to how quickly your mana tick occurred, and if your mana tick is slow to arrive, wait until it's been at least 1.30 or so seconds since your last mana tick before beginning your Fire III cast. It gets even weirder if you have a Firestarter proc, because then Fire III is instant cast, and you have to make a decision about your ability to fit a Blizzard I inbetween Thunder II and Transposed Fire III (or even a Scathe in rare situations to prevent Animation Lock on Transpose for getting 0.8s faster). And all this bizarre little timing and waiting variable intervals mini-game has to be done while dealing with other mechanics.
So yes, you're right, it is a fixed rotation, but it's not really rote memorization, at least if you're in pursuit of maximizing your performance, because of the huge amount of timing involved. Your rotation changes every time based on where your mana tick lands. It's a lot of fun, it's very dynamic, it requires paying a lot of attention and adjusting in response to mana tick timing, and it's a fun change of pace from rotation or proc based DPSing. It has given me a high interest in a possible theoretical class that has to wait short gaps of variable durations up to 3 seconds between moves, and accurately time them, in order to achieve maximum DPS. It's a lot more interesting than the standard rotation where you can mindlessly queue the next move without thinking. I doubt it'd ever be put in a game, because too many people wouldn't want to play something like that, but I think it'd be a delightful mental challenge, and always welcome new things that make the game harder for me. -
05-12-2014, 03:23 PMHuntingtonBest tank nickname ever, mind if I use this for the bad tanks I run across from now on? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
On the rest of your rather impressive and containing matter I'd mostly agree with wall, running across a DPS that does nothing but Full Thrust over and over is annoying in the case of DRGs. Me personally, having 6/8 battle classes to 50, will point out those things to other people. Is that DRG not doing Heavy Thrust before going into Impulse Drive? I'm gonna point it out. Is that SMN not using Fester or Shadow Flare at all? Gonna point it out. But Healers aren't absolved of everything either. If you've used a healing class a general amount, you understand what they have to deal with. Does the DPS keep standing in AoEs and eating them then not attempt to learn from the mistakes? Tell them what they need to do. If they continue to fail, let them die and panic to stay alive. Being nice and helpful is good at first, if people don't show you the same, then don't be kind or helpful to that person anymore.
A week ago in Stone Vigil, I had a healer who was using some pretty lackluster gear. Saw some Strength and Vitality gear in there. Then their weapon...Level 40 dungeon and they were using a level 15 staff. I don't need to be a qualified healer to know they're mucking some **** up. I pointed it out, their gear was about as awful as it could get for what class they were using. I wasn't rude about it though, I simply told them it was very unhelpful for their role. The other DPS since I was a BLM at the time, laughed at it pretty hard himself. Our tank at the time didn't do his class quest for Shield Oath, so he was holding aggro about as well as a training dummy. I told him after trying to struggle through it that it just wouldn't be possible if we were pulling off him constantly. He was understanding and accepting of it, and I respected the guy for it. The healer? They started giving me attitude that I'm a DPS that doesn't know what they're talking about. I pointed out the weapon, they changed to a level 40 staff, then gave a smart remark and rage-quit. Basically to get out a remark to a run the rest of us were going to abandon soon anyways. It was uncalled for and I hoped I wouldn't see that healer again.
Of course healers have a lot of responsibility, you should be on a tier of party coordination with the tanks. How many enemies can be pulled before it's too much? Things like that. But if the DPS is good and playing perfectly, you're probably going to be getting bored. So at that point you can DPS, which should liven it up more since Regen can do all the healing by itself in a lot of cases. My only point to you is that griping about being a healer and dealing with the DPS and others shouldn't come up, if you know something that can make someone play better, tell them. You can try and come off as kind and honest, or just be straight and serious with them. If it's something they should seriously be doing, just remind them: "Hey, I'm trying to help you play better so you have more fun with your class later on, can you just accept my advice and not make problems over it?" Something simple like that should hopefully make things go better. -
05-12-2014, 04:53 PMKarilyn
I decided to fully address the rest of your post, the social elements, in an entire separate post, because I feel you deserve to be listened to and this is a wildly different subject than what I addressed in my other post.
Honestly I just chose not to play with those people. It's a fairly simple solution. If you perform truly unforgivably badly and don't listen to my advice and attempts to guide you through how to play better, I'll just blacklist them and never invite them to a raid again. If a person play really well, OR listens to my advice as I work with them to help make them a better player without getting angry or defensive, and is open-minded to improvement, they get Whitelisted and priority invites back to my raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
I'm not elitist or anything though, cause folks who perform to at least 80% of what I would consider "theoretical perfect execution" (a pretty generous number TBH), or are willing to learn and show improvement, and are not otherwise toxic (like you describe), get graylisted. They don't get priority invites back to my raids, but they also aren't banned and are welcome to come back anytime.
I've had immense success with this technique in every MMO I've played. It is not quite as good as GDKP for producing extremely high end skilled pugs, but I do not feel I have a reputation on my FF14 server strong enough yet to attempt to convert people over to glory that is GDKP pugging, as people are often initially very hostile to the idea before they realize it works, and then they beg for more. But without first forming a spine in the local community, I cannot ask people to trust me as a GDKP leader.
So until then, the Blacklist, Whitelist, Graylist system is my best bet.
I'm female, and I usually view Tanking as a nurturing mother-bear sorta role protecting my cubs, as opposed to a tough-guy standing up to folks role. I've also had a long history of tanking alongside other women in raids (nearly 5 times as many as males), and almost always have male healers. (Both of my boyfriends play healers, one girlfriend is ranged DPS, and a random female friend who also plays with me is a tank. Hi poly person here)Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
So from my perspective, tanks are women and healers are male. To me those stereotypes fall on deaf ears with me. Don't know if that changes your opinion of me. But I do have intense respect for healers, and respect for you based on your posts. Because this is a specific hot topic for you, I've made a conscious decision to suppress my standard Karilynisms that I traditionally use for everyone, and not to address you as "darling" or "sweetie" out of respect for your feeling that such feminine terms of endearment are patronizing.
Since I generally expect all my players to perform at the same level, IE as close to perfect execution as I can reasonably expect without being a jerk (mistakes happen, all is forgiven, as long as we admit them and work together towards a common goal), I'm not exceptionally accustomed to tolerating an environment where DPS are being carried by healers. However, it seems like you're accustomed to this being the norm. You're bitter, and you are 100% right, you have ever single right to be. That's shouldn't be the norm, but for you, it is the norm. And that's not right. You shouldn't be subjected to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
That's been the core of my entire argument.
If DPSers are playing well, it takes this incredibly unfair stress which has been put on you as the accepted norm, and removes it from you. It reduces the pressure. It gives you more room for smaller spell-choice mistakes without wiping the whole raid. I wish you were on my server so I could see about whitelisting you, and bring you along with me for a few times, and learn what it's like to not be carrying this ridiculous unfair burden that you've been carrying. And maybe, with time, help ease the bitterness, so that you can have more fun. You deserve to have DPSers who put in the same amount of effort as you do.
The burden of performance is on all of us. A raid should be a team. We fight and live and die together. We conquer together. And we all have a common goal. Nobody should be carrying the weight of others. We cover each others' mistakes, we help and support one another, but we do NOT demand others account for our laziness. We cover for each other because nobody's perfect, not because someone isn't trying their hardest.
And if in every raid, all 4 DPSers were performing even 80-90% of what you're describe yourself as performing, I can't imagine the burden on you would be anything less than halved.
I don't think I ever said that, and I'm truly sorry it came off that way. It tears at my heart that I said something that upset you so greatly, through my own poor choice of words. Please forgive me.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
My address was intended to largely one of saying that Well-Performing DPSers and Well-Performing Healers are in a similar boat, and that Well-Performing Tanking is a laughing stock in this game compared to what DPS and healers have to deal with. It is not you who is the over-glorified tank babysitter, it is the tank who is the over-glorified baby that needs to be taken care of (This coming from a 12 year tank). Neither Healers or DPS can eat damage, that was a huge part of the purpose of including the Healers in my Titan's Earthen Fury chart.
In the sorta situation you describe, with Horrible-Performing DPSers, of course your job is astronomically harder than it has any right to be, and without a slightest doubt by an extremely extremely wide margin the hardest job you can have in a game.
And it should not be that way.
This is 100% unacceptable in every way shape or form. In a raid with well-performing DPS, the burden on you should be lifted enough that you are no longer as stressed as you are. Healers generally chose to DPS, not because DPS can't beat DPS checks, but because, you're no longer under this ridiculous pressure and burden of carrying others, and have more free time to stand around because you aren't constantly having to pull DPSers asses out of the fire, and can DPS for fun because there's nothing better for you to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
That's how it should work. That is the only situation I find acceptable.
I know, that's the same way I feel about playing a Black Mage. A lot of people toss shit around about how easy it is, because the basic rotation is the simplest of any DPSer in the game (though not nearly as loleasy as Paladin, ugh.). But if you truly try to min-max it out, and achieve the highest theoretical maximum that's humanly possible, the payoff is incredibly rewarding, and the challenge is deeply satisfying in a way I haven't felt in an MMO in many years. I'm starting to enjoy the difficulty of being the second most fragile class in the game (After White Mages of course; we're otherwise identical, but I have Mana Wall, Mana Ward, and Aetherial Manipulation to give me a slight edge), cause it forces me, like you, to play almost perfectly in order to not die. I'm coming to enjoy the difficulty that comes from Black Mages absurdly and borderline obnoxiously nailed to the ground, a trait we both share, so I'm sure you can appreciate the forethought that goes into timing your spellcasts to minimize interruption during heavy movement fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
Those fringe benefits are bullshit, and don't pass mustard around me. I don't tolerate tanks who swagger anymore than I tolerate DPSers who cluster-fuck defend their under-performance. In my ideal raid, every player has pressures equal to every other role, and everybody pulls their weight. (That's why I wish Square would make tanking more difficult in this game; there's virtually no current in-game situation where a tank will EVER be under the same pressures as the rest of the raid.)Quote:
Originally Posted by subteraneanbird
+1 for respect, polite communication and education, and helping people learn from their mistakes. I often try to add in things like "We all make mistakes [playername] darling, no anger is here to be found today," or "Hey there [playername] darling. This is probably your first time on this fight, because I noticed that you didn't seem to know about [insert obvious mechanic here]. Don't worry, nobody's angry, we all went through learning at some point. Here's what you should to do next time. I believe in you! Good luck sweetie, you can do it! <3"Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntington
A positive response to something like that, gets a whitelist. A negative, defensive, angry, or toxic response get's a blacklist.
Optimism, encouragement, and positive communication and acknowledgement of specific things performed well, as well as specific advice addressing specific problems, fosters more success than anything else. I also enjoy addressing people as individuals, it makes them feel more valued and encourages them to try harder.
Nobody performs well in a pessimistic, angry, bitter, negative environment. I try to give a reason and a belief and a hope that the party can fight together towards victory, a reminder that we're all allies on the same team, not enemies of one another, and through this I can get most players to give me 110%. -
05-12-2014, 05:42 PMHuntingtonWhy can't you be on my server?!~ *cries*Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn
I do it most of the time, I have a strong smartass side though as well so if someone assumes me to be dumb about something, negotiations are pretty much done after that point.
I should start trying to make a list like that. If I find someone that was enjoyable in the time I spent playing with them, I should add them to a list in the hopes I'll remember their name or see them again. For all else pretty much the blacklist.
Couldn't say it better myself.
+1 to you as well, I haven't seen your posts around here before but I'll look forward to them now. -
05-13-2014, 12:45 AMFlipside101
Stereotypes:
BRD: "Let's play ring around the mob!"
BLM: "Can't move... Must finish casting..."
SMN: "More dots more dots more dots!"
DRG: "Scrape me off the floor pl0x"
MNK: "Deeeeeepppppzzzz" -
05-13-2014, 08:32 PMAeliott
Difficulty depends on content...
Most of the things added in 2.2 definitely ask DPS to pull their socks up. If you think Turn 8's gonna go down with your Monk flapping around at the flank all day or your Drg spamming Full Thrust...it ain't happening :P. All the story content is horribly forgiving, and the fights that really require you to fully know your DPS job are the optional end-game things (well, just second coil now, really)
I absolutely agree with them having the highest skill ceiling, as someone earlier in the thread said it seems there's always some way to squeeze out extra damage. Every time I think to myself I know my main job perfectly inside and out I'm always finding ways to improve. Those extra tidbits of damage aren't really going to make an impression or be that noticeable in most non-coil content, and some extremes I guess, but coil especially does a good job of separating the face-rollers from those who really know their job (or can at least read tooltips!) -
05-13-2014, 09:42 PMgivemeraptorsomg, I can't overstate how much I agree with this. I see so many people who don't seem to know what their ability actually does. Sometimes though the tooltips are just confusing. If I had a nickel for every pre-50 (and sometimes level 50) tank that didn't know what provoke actually does...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeliott
I definitely agree with this. I main a SMN but also play my SCH frequently for faster queues and needed spots in raids. I feel as though Titan Ex really sums up a healer's role for the majority of FFXIV, "can your party dodge?" This has an inordinate (sometimes completely unfair) amount of power over a healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karilyn