Are the Primals really Primals?

I got this idea reading a few other threads about Primals and how they had personalities in 1.0 and now the Primals being summoned in 2.0 seem to be more blank slates who just show up and wreck stuff. So this is basically just a theory, and my first attempt at lorecraft so please bear with me.

What if the Primals being summoned now in 2.0+ are not the actual Primals but simply a rudimentary imitation of their actual selves. We're told that the Primals are manifested through a cache of crystals and the will of the believers that summon it, and if I remember correctly, it was the Ascians who taught the beastmen how to summon them in this way. The summoning ritual can basically be used for anything, as we saw with King Moggle Mog. If King Mog wasn't a Primal, but was summoned in exactly the same way as the Primals (manifestation of will focused by crystals) could it not be that the Beastmen Primals that are being summoned are also not the true Primals but simply manifestations of the will of the followers who summoned them?
If this is true, then that means that we have not actually met Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, and Leviathan, but rather the fake versions of them willed into existence by the Beastmen. I think this would lend credence to the Ascians plan to drain the aether of the world to bring about a dark age. So then what are the true Primals? Will we ever meet them? Is this why Summoners can only create Egis? Because they are summoning a copy of a copy? Will Summoner later be able to summon a real Primal after we meet their true versions?

That's a very interesting idea, but the information given in the game makes it quite clear that despite having similarities, there is actually a clear distinction between Primals like Ifrit, and 'aetheric entities' like Good King Moggle Mog. The former are pretty much essences that have always existed, formless and incorporeal within the aether. Aetheric entities on the other hand, are pretty much just a will made manifest - an abstract idea given physical form, which is pretty much what you're describing. They never existed in the same way as Primals have - they're basically just an image that has been willed into existence through aether and crystals.

Minfilia explains what a Primal really is, the process of summoning, and how they can be easily resummoned again and again despite being constantly defeated early on in the storyline after joining the Scions of the Seventh Dawn:

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'Lord of the Inferno'

Thancred: "Having manifested in the physical realm, Primals must consume aether if they are to maintain their presence here. And the stronger they become, the more aether they require."
Thancred: "Now aether exists throughout all creation. If flows through all life and permeates the very air that we breathe."
Thancred: "Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether - crystals."
Minfilia: "It is for this reason that incidents involving crystals can often be traced back to a Primal."
Thancred: "Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how Primals are born."
Thancred: "When all is well with the world, Primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether."
Minfilia: "However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the Primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering."
Minfilia: "These cries serve as a beacon toward which a Primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together - or 'aetheric coalescence' - which grants the beings physical form."
Minfilia: "Once born, a Primal gains strength from it's followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes."

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As for what constitutes an 'aetheric entity' and it's difference from a Primal, Yda and Papalymo along with Y'shtola and Kan-E-Senna mention the difference just prior to fighting Good King Moggle Mog the XIIth:

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'Hail to the King Kupo'

Kan-E-Senna: "It is our belief that Good King Moggle Mog the XIIth is a myth made manifest via means akin to those employed by the beast tribes in the summoning of their gods."
Yda: "Waaait... You're saying a handful of moogles with a boatload of crystals wished really, really hard, and he just sort of appeared?... Would that even work?"

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And a short time later:

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'Hail to the King Kupo'

Papalymo: "Hmm, we cannot discount the possibility that this... entity is influencing the moogles in a manner similar to that of a Primal."

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And immediately after

defeating him in the Thornmarch,

there's this bit of dialogue:

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'You Have Selected: Regicide'

Kuplo Kopp: "Perhaps now they'll come to their senses and stop playing at faerie tales. Rest assured the chieftain will have choice words for them too!"

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And after returning to

the Lotus Stand:

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'On the Properties of Primals'

Papalymo: "By Louisoix's definition, the late King Moggle Mog XII was indeed a Primal. But how can that be? It defies all precedent."

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And

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Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'On the Properties of Primals'

Yda: "The King really is a Primal..."
Yda: "But he really isn't, is he? I mean, the moogles don't worship him, for one thing-he's not even a god to them! That doesn't sound like any Primal I've ever heard of."
Papalymo: "Then mayhap the fault lies with the definition. The fact remains that through a combination of the power contained in crystals and the force of their collective faith, the moogles called forth a being that by rights should not exist. Moreover, when slain, said being left no corpse - the aether which comprised him scattered to the four winds."
Kan-E-Senna: "According to the accepted definition, he may not be a Primal... but the mode of his manifestation was in every respect the same."

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Of course the Garlean Empire did not differentiate the two, grouping them together under the derogatory term 'eikon', but from information given by Thancred, Minfilia, Y'shtola and others, the two entities are actually different.

Essentially, by the sound of it, there are two things here.

Primals are Elemental based beings, each of the Beastmen's Primal attributes itself to a specific Element - Fire, Wind, Earth, Water (eventually Lightning, Ice). The Primals also do not look like their Beastmen, not truly. While Ifrit is lizard'ish, he is thinner, elongated, more demonic in a respect than Amalj'aa, Titan is a hulking earth-composed beast, Garuda has feathers, but the Ixali actually, do not. Leviathan does have scales/fins, which the Sahagan do have, but is still more of a serpent than a humanoid creature, as Garuda and Titan are.

Mog King, however, looks exactly like the Moogles themselves. It represents them as their Primal because their wish is one of their own kinship to be their salvation.

Why do the Elemental Primals take on their respective forms? No idea.

Which leads me to also believe that if/when the Dragons are revealed to have a Primal as well, I sincerely doubt it'll be Bahamut, as it would be too similar, granted Bahamut has also always been attributed to being non-elemental, so perhaps that would still work.

Going along this same thought - I could see them going as far as having Ishgard summon something akin to the Knights of the Round at some point, non-elemental, representing themselves in a sense, in a sense still Holy or simply righteous. That fight, if it ever happened, would make the Mog King fight look like cake. lol

While I won't go into details, because I don't know who else gleans information from external sites, but a recent discovery was found in the files from 2.2 that showed what is likely a new beastmen tribe coming in the future. Which, if they are attuned to say, Shiva for instance, do not look like her - at all -. Which furthers the point that Elemental Primals are not represented by their worshippers, but are instead given a form which they themselves favor instead. Why exactly, who can say, except the lore masters themselves.

Your original question, regarding whether the Primals we face now, are truly the Primals, or simply representing them is still plausible. While the naming is different, it can also go back to the way the names were used in XI. Avatars. An Avatar of a deity is not the deity itself, but a projection of its astral self into the physical world. Lessened, considerably, from it's true power because if a deity actually stepped down on the same world as mortals, it would likely have disastrous repercussions. Likewise, these Primals, may simply be Avatars of their true selves, sustained by the power of aether/crystals/blood sacrifice, but still not their actual selves. To fight the actual Primal itself, at its own "full power", would likely require going into a semi incorporeal space. I think of it as a divide, the corporal/material world we're in, then the incorporeal/aetherial world that permeates through our own, giving sustenance to the land, the air, but also the means that Primals have of emerging into our own world, while still remaining outside of it. Which can be partly why they are able to be returned so often, until their actual cores are disrupted, they can return again, granted each time requires more and more power to do so.

Also consider, essentially all 'aethereal' is, is 'ethereal'. As the word 'aethereal' does not get used anymore. So the idea that they would use similar concepts of a prime material (physical world) and ethereal (spiritual world) is not far fetched. It may also lend to the fact that the reason they chose Primal, as the choice title to these beings, is because they are taking a physical form of themselves from the Aether, but it does not mean it is themselves, fully.

I think after beating Ifrit extreme the two ascians refer the primals you defeated as avatars.

It would seem that there are "TIERS" of primals regarding their powers, manifestation and dependence on energy to summon them hence,

tier 0 : "Mother" Hydaelyn and her alter ego, "Father" Zodiarc
tier 1 : Elder Primals, aka Odin n Bahamut
tier 2 : Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva
tier 3 : King Mog XIII

*tier 0 seems to switched sides depending on the amount of aether present, if it drained, Hydaelyn may enter a hibernation state, and waking Zodiarc until the aether amount reached the minimum level to wake Hydaelyn and put Zodiarc to sleep. Thus balance between light and darkness. The real question is not about can Ascian be considered as the worshippers of Zodiarc but if its possible to cycle the balance NATURALLY without a third party trying to speed up the cycle? If the natural cycle didn't involved third party scumbags, then our toons can exterminate the Ascians forever; unless they're part of the natural cycling and the battle rages on for eternity

*tier 1 seems to be have a personality of their own. doesn't have followers or worshippers (excluding Nael since he's worshipping Dalamud not Bahamut; i won't go to the other debate about Dalamud is the Allagan word for Bahamut) and they manifested without crystals

*tier 2 seems to take personality to whatever quality their worshippers have in common (Ifrit have a prideful personality as Amalja'a does), MUST HAVE followers or worshippers to sustain their ties to the physical world before they "slide" into the aetheric world, and they need crystals as some sort of a ticket to enter pysical world

*tier 3 seems to have personality based on the expected image of their worshippers, must have imagining followers or worshippers to mold the shape of its physical entity and need crystal as a catalyst to empower their idea

I really like the idea of Tiered or ranked Primals. I'm not so sure about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals, unless by ranking them as 0 you mean to say that they are the source of the other primals manifesting (ie. the other primals would not be possible without Hydaelyn and Zodiark). Is there truly a way to kill a primals then? We know that they can be sealed away, but can they actually be killed permanently?
Also, this makes me wonder also about the opening cinematic from 1.0. When the Agrias crashed into Silvertear Lake, we see a whole lot of primals being released. The ones they show us that we can recognize are Ifrit and Titan, but what about all those other streaks of light. Were all the Tier 2 primals locked away in Silvertear? We know where Odin and Bahamut were sealed and broke out from, so where did all those others come from? And where did they go for that matter?
I'm interested in what you all think the other primals released from Silvertear are.

@Akujin
Sounds alot like a fusion of the Multiverse and Phantom Plains theorys in which there are multiple levels of ovelaping existance and a being in one plain can not simply interacte with a being on anouther with out a medium. Basically with out their worshipers the primals can't actually exist in our plain of Eorzia to interact with us.

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Originally Posted by Kicha

I really like the idea of Tiered or ranked Primals. I'm not so sure about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals, unless by ranking them as 0 you mean to say that they are the source of the other primals manifesting (ie. the other primals would not be possible without Hydaelyn and Zodiark).

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I have this theory that Hydalelyn and Zodiark actuary are primals and that the Echo is a watered down tempering. This can also explain exactly why those with the echo cannot be tempered, because they already are, they just don't know it and it doesn't drive them to fundamentalism or becoming a puppet to the primal who tempered them (in this case Hydaelym.) Think Dragon Quest VIII (incoming spoilers) where the protagonist was cursed during infancy, resulting to him being immune to other curses such as the one that turned most the inhabitants of his home into plants.

There are some holes, such as "How did she touch them?", but it's a start

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Originally Posted by Akujin

Garuda has feathers, but the Ixali actually, do not.

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The Ixali have feathers. They simply lost the ability to fly. They have since used balloons.
The feathers are also very vibrant in colour in those who haven't been tempered with.


When they summon a Primal, they are channelling the actual essence. Prayers act as a beacon to a particular Primal. The summoned Primal comes with memories, personality and privy knowledge.

These summoned Gods are, however, far too alike the minds that summoned them for my taste. Or, perhaps, it is more reasonable to turn that phrase and say those who have been tempered become more like their deity.


The Elder Primals are odd. We have not seen them being summoned. We saw them being released. They also don't seem to require prayer to subsist. What does Bahamut want, anyway?


Mog is an aetheric doll that can move and speak.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

Going along this same thought - I could see them going as far as having Ishgard summon something akin to the Knights of the Round at some point, non-elemental, representing themselves in a sense, in a sense still Holy or simply righteous. That fight, if it ever happened, would make the Mog King fight look like cake. lol

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No, if there is one thing characteristic of Ishgardians, it is their devotion to Halone, the Fury. If the Archbishop of the Holy Sea ever sought to summon anything forth in their defence, it would be this warrior maiden associated with the first moon (astral ice) of the Eorzean Calendar.

I wonder who that could be?

I can't think of any event more fitting that leads to them opening their gates.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

No, if there is one thing characteristic of Ishgardians, it is their devotion to Halone, the Fury. If the Archbishop of the Holy Sea ever sought to summon anything forth in their defence, it would be this warrior maiden associated with the first moon (astral ice) of the Eorzean Calendar.

I wonder who that could be?

I can't think of any event more fitting that leads to them opening their gates.

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Every day, this makes more sense. And it fills me with glee.

I want to Ishgardian's to summon her so bad it hurts.

Another thing to note about primals, specifically Odin, is that despite being slain over and over again, Odin always re-appears. We could perhaps interepret this as his aether coalescing on its own, without the need for followers. And on the subject of Bahamut, perhaps this is why he was bound rather than simply slain over and over, because a Primal of sufficient power can force itself to exist in the material plane.

But what exactly might be the difference between a normal and an Elder Primal? Is it as simple as "a primal that is strong enough can will its aether to coalesce"? If a normal primal ingests enough Aether, can they attain this level of self-sustainence?

And most intriguing to me, and possibly relevant to the Ishgard/Shiva theory, is the question of "What happens if a Primal is summoned, but its followers aren't being troubled by humans?" If the source of the worshipper's problems was, say, dragons, would the Primal have any ill regard for the rest of the world?

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Originally Posted by Darske

But what exactly might be the difference between a normal and an Elder Primal? Is it as simple as "a primal that is strong enough can will its aether to coalesce"? If a normal primal ingests enough Aether, can they attain this level of self-sustainence?

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Wasn't there supposed to be wandering primals in the overworld that when defeated could be summoned by FCs or something? I vaguely remember this being addressed recently and said it would come when it makes sense for the story. I wonder if this is where the storyline is headed what with the primals getting more and more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Darske

"What happens if a Primal is summoned, but its followers aren't being troubled by humans?" If the source of the worshipper's problems was, say, dragons, would the Primal have any ill regard for the rest of the world?

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As Minfilia and Thancred explained early in the story, the mere physical existence of a primal is trouble enough, as it would constantly drain aether from the world to sustain itself. So, even if the primal doesn't directly threaten other people, like Ramuh for example, it would still have to be tackled eventually for the sake of Eorzea's environmental well-being.

Furthermore, primals are, in a sense, the physical manifestation of intensified extremism among the people who summoned them. Their summoning comes as a result of a growing feeling of existential threat; an extreme backlash against looming danger. Couple this with the tempering that all followers are subjected to, I doubt that any primal would stop at just the original intruders that prompted its summoning. The temptation to grow its influence would be too strong, I reckon.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

It would seem that there are "TIERS" of primals regarding their powers, manifestation and dependence on energy to summon them hence,

tier 0 : "Mother" Hydaelyn and her alter ego, "Father" Zodiarc
tier 1 : Elder Primals, aka Odin n Bahamut
tier 2 : Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva
tier 3 : King Mog XIII

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Don't forget Elder primal Belias "egi" from the SMN quests.

I'd also like to point out that King Moggle Mog isn't a primal at all.

[source]

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So far the primal battles have focused on four or eight adventurers battling against a primal. However, Good King Moggle Mog XII looks to even the score as the battle will pit 8 adventurers against 8 enemies at once!
(Though, keep in mind that Good King Moggle Mog isn't a primal!)

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Mortal's Question: Oh, Deep Thought. What is a Primal? Like, what is it really?

Deep Thought: Hmm, I'll have to think about that.

Oddly enough whenever people start speculating about Primals, nobody ever brings up the cinematic intro of 1.0 where we see tons of Primals seemingly being "unleashed". I haven't seen any discussion about it since 2.0 and given a few of the theories in this thread I think it would be important to point it out as it confirms certain things such as Primals not taking the appearance of their followers but already having a shape of their own.

Here's the video.

Also, aren't Moogles pretty unique even amongst "beastmen"? Given how they, according to their own legends, descend from the heavens. Sounds to me like their ability to give form to an other entity could be due to their unique nature, I imagine we'll learn more about this in future content updates though.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Deep Thought: Hmm, I'll have to think about that.

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The answer is 42.

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Originally Posted by Akoree

nobody ever brings up the cinematic intro of 1.0 where we see tons of Primals seemingly being "unleashed".

Here's the video.

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Well, it might be time to dig out what we know about that once more.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

The Midlander accidentally gets tossed onto the back of one of these machines, and gets carried up into the sky, where he witnesses the Garleans fight with the dragon Midgardsormr in the Battle of Silvertear Skies. Though the great dragon is able to destroy the Garlean flagship, he perishes in the process, and the seal which he protected (guarding the concentration of aether beneath Silvertear Lake) is broken, allowing the beast tribes access to this energy, which they use to freely summon their primals (as taught to them by the mysterious paragons).

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That seal might be important.
We've been talking about the Allagans sealing Odin, and Binding Bahamut, capturing primals within the Ultima Weapon.
We've also discovered Allag's fascination and association with Dragons.

I'm starting to wonder if Midgardsormr was a servant of Allag - the protector of a seal in which the six elemental primals were bound as a concentration of suspended aether.
Perhaps even held in place by the energy of the sun (rather than the land), as collected by Dalamud and fed to it via the Crystal Tower.

Did Ferne drop us a few subtle hints which we ran straight past, distracted by the shiny stuff?

...I think I might need a bit more than a Darksteelfoil hat here.

To me, it seems likely that there is some sort of link between all the major landmarks present within Mor Dhona, starting with the seal protected by Midgdarsormr, the Allag's Crystal Tower as well as the newly arrived chunk/blade/starship (or at the very least, Dalamud-related aetheric disturbance) to the north-east. The fact that the Scions of the Seventh Dawn have made it their new home and that they are slowly growing it pretty hints that the zone may become central to the story.

I do like the idea of the seal being an advanced form of the Ultima Weapon (or at least a container in which they could place Primals after their capture), its a longshot but it could definitely make "sense" with what we currently know. =)

Okay so I wnat to know what Eorzia in generla thinks of the Primals. Should they be destroyed? Should Primals exist on any lane of existence? and can a person attain Apoptheosis and become a Primal? And what are the Beast tribe's opinions on their respective primals (I think i know the Amal'ja's [possible sic, Fantasy names do not register on spellcheck unless they're old enough] and Sylph's opinions But I need to double check)

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Originally Posted by Bombast

Every day, this makes more sense. And it fills me with glee.

I want to Ishgardian's to summon her so bad it hurts.

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Not me - I want the Primals and the gods worshiped by the player races to be distinct.

That way, in future expansions, we can have scenarios where rogue factions of the player races start summoning their OWN gods to counter the threat of the beastmen gods. These rogue factions, of course, must be stopped, but naturally we'll consistently fail to stop them before they manage to summon their deities - which gives us a whole new pantheon of deities to beat the crap outta. :D

As a Paladin that worships Nophica, I wanna use Rage of Halone ON Halone.

I am really glad Razor brought up the Twelve, because this is something I've been toying with for a while...

What if the entities the beast tribes know as Primals and the entities that the people of the city-states know as the Twelve are not actually distinct beings?

We've seen that the Twelve can be summoned into this world through prayer (yours and Louisoux's pupils') and sufficient empowerment (there's a recent Lore Train entry where Fernehawles all but explicitly refers to Louisoux' staff as a "Key"). Gaius says much the same:

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Originally Posted by Gaius van Baelsar

Why not repeat the trick that worked so well at Carterneaux and call them down? They will answer... so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether.

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(cont.)

There's even a degree to which the primals we've seen match up with members of the Twelve, though not with their aetherial alignment. Rhalgr, whose summoning we actually stop during the MSQ, is so close to Ifrit they could be brothers. Lymlaen rules over the seas and navigation; in other words, she is responsible for the safety of all that live in the sea and all that sail across it (sound familiar?). Llymlaen's symbol is even the wave, the signature assault of a certain someone. Likewise, Thaliak is depicted as a scholar wielding a staff of ash (ash is a tree) and he rules over rivers (nothing is more important to a forest than the rivers that run through it). Halone's similarities to Shiva are obvious, even more so when you review the Defenders of Eorzea trailer and notice that Shiva wields a round shield.

The other two are trickier (Nophica<->Titan?) but the principle seems solid enough...

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

There's even a degree to which the primals we've seen match up with members of the Twelve, though not with their aetherial alignment. Rhalgr, whose summoning we actually stop during the MSQ, is so close to Ifrit they could be brothers. Lymlaen rules over the seas and navigation; in other words, she is responsible for the safety of all that live in the sea and all that sail across it (sound familiar?). Llymlaen's symbol is even the wave, the signature assault of a certain someone. Likewise, Thaliak is depicted as a scholar wielding a staff of ash (ash is a tree) and he rules over rivers (nothing is more important to a forest than the rivers that run through it). Halone's similarities to Shiva are obvious, even more so when you review the Defenders of Eorzea trailer and notice that Shiva wields a round shield.

The other two are trickier (Nophica<->Titan?) but the principle seems solid enough...

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Someone mentioned this earlier but it's worth repeating again - on the surface that seems the case but after juxtaposing the Primals with the Twelve again and after thinking about it, that idea just doesn't add up, specifically when looking at it from an elemental alignment.

The Ifrit-Rhalgr comparison for example, doesn't work, as Ifrit is fire elemental while Rhalgr is lightning elemental (the two fire elemental members of the Twelve are Nald'thal and Azeyma). Likewise with Leviathan and Lymlean - Leviathan is water elemental while Lymlaen is actually wind aligned. Also given the general stories of the Twelve is as much removed from the Primals as you can get (for instance, Nophica is essentially a goddess of fertility and farming, not exactly the same as the stern, elderly sylphic god of thunder Ramuh is it?) so the Primal-Twelve comparison doesn't hold water to me really.

Personally, although it's an interesting comparison to draw, I'm more liable to simply apply Occam's Razor to this idea and just take it as nothing but coincidence (and the Shiva-elezen pic nothing but a red herring planted by Ferne deliberately to get us lore nerds discussing this. :p ). Or I could be totally, horribly wrong - in which case it will probably result in me going mad from the revelation and running around Gridania shouting gibberish with my subligar on my head. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The Ifrit-Rhalgr comparison for example, doesn't work, as Ifrit is fire elemental while Rhalgr is lightning elemental (the two fire elemental members of the Twelve are Nald'thal and Azeyma).

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One of the main problems with this theory, yes. But consider the tribes that are summoning them; might not the fact that this aspect of (whatever being we know as Rhalgr and they know as Ifrit) is being conjured forth by Amalj'aa using fire-aspected crystals be enough to shift alignment? It also seems rather odd to me that the god that oversees the ocean and navigation, and whose symbol is a breaking wave, is wind-aspected, could we actually have things wrong ourselves? (For that matter, why on earth would a god of time be earth-aspected, or indeed have any element?) So I suppose part of what I'm proposing is that the Eorzeans and the beast tribes have two sets of legends that are talking about the same being, both of which have been shaped by time.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also given the general stories of the Twelve is as much removed from the Primals as you can get (for instance, Nophica is essentially a goddess of fertility and farming, not exactly the same as the stern, elderly sylphic god of thunder Ramuh is it?) so the Primal-Twelve comparison doesn't hold water to me really.

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Well, yes, which is why I'm more proposing that, for example, Leviathan and Llymlaen are two different aspects of the same being, viewed through two different lenses. Llymlaen is the protective aspect, that which guides sailors across oceans and nourishes the life within them, while Leviathan is the active, aggressive aspect, the power of the ocean to drown and destroy.

If we were to entertain the idea that all the elemental primals find an embodiment in one of the Twelve, I suspect we'd be looking at some more significant pairings.

Ifrit would represent Azeyma, the Warden, goddess of the sun from which she emerges.
(gender is of little significance to the Amalj'aa, so a female could easily be a Lord in their eyes)

Garuda could be easily tied to Llymlaen, Goddess of Navigation, who fills the sails of merchant vessels, much like she gives the Ixal's balloons the power to defy regular wind currents.

Titan is easily a representation of Althyk, the Keeper, who is the father of the pantheon and protector of his realm. The Kobolds bow to him in such suitable reverence.

Ramuh is the spitting image of Rhalgr, the Destroyer, a magi with a staff of bronze. As patron of Ala Mhigo, he defends his city in the inevitables times of war. And to the Sylph, he is also fiercely protective and will not hesitate to pass his Judgement Bolt against would-be invaders.

Shiva appears as a fierce warrior princess branding sword and shield, deeply reminiscent of Halone the Fury and her iconic greatshield.

Odin may find a representation in Oschon the Wanderer as he roams the wood. Belias may represent Nald'thal, the Traders given Tristan's propensity to trade his life in with Belias.

Only Leviathan is harder to place. One might offer a resemblance to the weaving threads of Nymeia as the sea beast curves through the waves. Or perhaps to Thaliak, who is master of the Rivers. Yet neither has a solid connection without breaking elemental alignment (and even then, I can't find a match).
It is here that the theory breaks down.

Well, I still hold to the belief that the Primal=Twelve idea is nothing but coincidence, but your comparison does actually work Catapult. And even though it's definitely veering into darksteelfoil hat territory, it starts to make sense when you remember the old Eorzea creation story first stated back in 1.0's early development - you know, about how during the Age of the Gods the Twelve apparently co-existed on Eorzea with the 'early tribes' - an idea which fell apart when it was revealed none of the five races actually originated in Eorzea (even if you take the idea of gods coexisting with mortals in a physical world seriously).

However, when you think of the 'tribes' line as actually referring to the beastmen and not the five races... suddenly... it all makes sense. And especially as Ferne revealed that little morsel a while ago about the Twelve possibly "not actually being a form we're expecting them to be"....

Hmmm.... what was that about 'going mad from the revelation'? DON'T MIND IF I DOOO!!! *loses sanity* :p

Well, if you bring Odin into the mix then you also have to account for Bahamut. From the ritual used to try to seal him, we can come up with this:

1- Elder Primals simply cannot be part of the "Primals are the Twelve" theory, despite the ritual failing I doubt Bahamut would lend his power to people trying to seal him away.

2- The twelve are willing to lend their powers to the player races of Eorzea in order to fight the Primals which is contrary to their goals and nature as I think they'd rather just wipe "us" out.

3- The twelve themselves cannot be fully summonned, all we see from them are symbols, whereas the Primals can hardly be anything BUT their shape. When they escape the seal, they already have their shape. When you summon Egis, even a small portion of their essence has similar features to them. I also don't remember seeing an NPC who had actually seen or even heard stories of people seeing the Twelve but I could be wrong about that.

I think this whole Primal-Twelve connection is an unfounded theory spurred by Gaius' claim that the twelve and the Primals are the same.

He may be right about the eikon thing, but I think the Twelve are a different kind of gods. I think they are a polytheistic take of the Abrahamic god. They exist but will not (or cannot) enter the mortal realm like Primals, so they have to work in mysterious ways. You could take it further and say that the Twelve themselves are aspects of a single God; Hyadelyn.

In contrast. what we called The primals were independent gods separate from Hyadelyn and the Twelve, and therefore are capable of entering the mortal plane. But Zordiark appeared and made them his own. Those eikons became Primals, aspects of the Prime Darkness Zodiark, but retain their abilities, (such as the aforementioned assuming of psychical form as well as tempering).

Basically, Hyadelyn and the 12 are one and the same, while the Primals eventually became extensions of Zordiark's will.

Whether the Twelve and the Primals are the same or not, the twelve can be summoned. Or at least the Ascians think so. Remember, Lahabrea tricked a group of Ala Mihgan youth into trying to summon Rhalgar. The fact that Louisoix only summoned the power of the Twelve instead of the Twelve themselves was a choice on his part.

Yeah, it was proven in 1.0 that the Twelve do at least exist in some form, and that Louisoix mentioned that it was indeed possible to summon them like a Primal, but to do so would enact a terrible cost on the planet itself, due to the huge amount of aether that would needed to be consumed would threaten Hydaelyn's very existence. Hence he used a shortcut at the Battle of Carteneau, summoning a portion of their power and not the actual deities themselves, as his 'plan B' to reseal Bahamut.

Naturally this wasn't enough sadly, as the 'End of an Era' trailer showed. Hydaelyn Herself however is not part of the Twelve - she's essentially the consciousness of the planet itself, making her a goddess in a sense, but not in a anthropomorphic way. She instead takes the form of a giant crystal - the source of all life itself (and the Echo too for that matter).

In some respects, Hydaelyn (and Zodiark too for that matter), are beyond the pantheon of the Twelve and exist in a separate hierarchy, but what exactly the Twelve really are - whether they really are as they're believed to be by most Eorzeans (virtual copies of the Greco-Roman pantheon), the same as the Primals, or some other form, remains to be seen.