Tanking, need some advice?

I play a lvl 20 GLD, this is my first real try with an MMORPG.

I play with my partner who is a healer, and we communicate well about what's going on through dungeons.

The problem for me, however, is that I'm easily overwhelmed by mobs, by the speed that the DPS jump in (which often leaves me without enough aggro to hold them on me), and then the difficulties switching between targets to rebuild that aggro.

Does anyone have and advice for:

- Getting over the DPS rushing ahead
- Getting more self-assured
- Building enmity as quickly as possible
- Good low-mid-level combo strategies
- Methods for marking (who first, etc)

Also, am I right to always favour protecting the healer? At the point that my effort to hold a mob is shaken I always default to protecting the healer, and let the DPS have their way with the stragglers they've aggrod in spite of my effort.

Is it also normal to have to fight tooth and nail to keep aggro off of DPS?

Hi and welcome :)

- Rushing DPS : let them die, it's the only way
- Getting more self assured : just communicate, tell what you know and don't know. People will help you out.
- Building enmity, well you are only lvl 20 so you lack all the tools. Higher level player will give you combos but still it s a combination of single target combos and flash at your level

As for marking, go for casters and healers mobs first or to mobs with very dangerous skills. Doing content you will recognize them :)

Save the cheerhealer save the world, be a heroe!
It's team work, ask healer to go to you if they get aggro, but managing aggro is everybody's job.
Some fights you can let dps have their way, others you have to save them too.

Until Brayflox (lvl 32) it will be rather simple.

Start with shield lob as you're moving toward the mobs. After you've moved into the scrum, flash twice. (With flash, two is one; one is none). Then do a fast blade -> savage blade combo, flash again, and finish the rotation with fast blade -> riot blade combo. Lather, rinse, repeat.

And yes... prioritize protecting your healer over protecting your DPS, if you can't do both.

DPS rush, let them tank it, some simply doesn't learn until you let them tank it and die, or just tell them not to run ahead.
Practice and know your skills, having good knowledge of the dungeon helps like best way to pull, to avoid patrol, etc
Know your combo, at level 20 it's not much
I usually mark the mob that hurt most, range mob is a pain since you can't really pull them to you, so what you do is you can pull melee mob to the range, just don't accidentally agro on patrol.

Healer comes first, DPS let them take care of themselves. If the DPS is geared and level sync yes you might have some problem holding agro, not always but it happens. If DPS starts pew pew pew right as you shield lob before even having the chance to do your combo, it's the DPS fault.

Also, there's some good reading in this thread and this one

Thanks for your replies, Thaliss, JeniLinsky and valho!

So consensus on DPS who don't follow my lead is to let them do as they do, and focus more on what I can do? That's good to hear. A lot of the stress came from scenarios like this:

Shield lob > Run in > DPS run in and attack > flash x2 > Aggro starts to wane and I start switching from target to target using Fast Blade + Savage Blade to build aggro.

I'll definitely take that advice to heart, JeniLinsky. That seems almost to be what I try to do at the moment.

It usually goes: Shield Lob > Flash x2 > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade + Shield Bash depending on the situation.

Speaking of Shield Bash, is it worth continuing to use? I tend to use it more against the bosses for it's stun benefit.

Thank you all!

At level 20 I found it a bit painful to hold aggro against sync dpses ^^ It will however become easier at level 26.
Protecting healer is the first priority if he is not only casting medica all the time (which generates such threat that idk what should be done at level 20 to hold mob off that kind of healer).
Do not worry about dpses who hit the wrong target - either switch to that target or let them tank it if they cannot follow markings. It is a good idea as glad/pld to mark enemies (at least have 1 marking on your bar and switch it to next mob when first mob is at 10% health). Be careful about sleeping - just use flash on those targets.
I usually mark "annoying targets" like mobs who do frontal cones, do a lot of damage, doesn't have too much health, do aoe or is ranged. After doing dungeon a few times, you will feel those potential targets also ;)
Also - you may find useful to switch between targets after you have built enough aggro on one. That will help you see which mobs are about to be pulled (by healer most usually) and I tend to put savage blade on such mob (usually lowers healer enmity about for a half).

And most importantly: try to relax and enjoy the game ;)

Edit: Do not try to stun bosses too much - they build up resistance to it ;)

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

Also, there's some good reading in this thread and this one

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The first thread link is so informative! Already some things are becoming clear, thanks for this useful set of tips!

I knew that fast blade didn't aggro, and that was a headache for me due to GCD. The time it took to set up the savage blade combo was grueling, and I lost time on getting enmity because of it. I didn't realise that cutting straight to Savage Blade or RoH (when I get it) would still build enmity (albeit with less damage).

Shield bash is a mixed blessing. It's very expensive (TP 150), which, in a longer fight can lead to you being out of TP. The stun effect is subject to diminishing returns (first bash stuns for 3 seconds, second interrupts but doesn't stun, third doesn't stun or interrupt). On the other hand, it's a decent hit, at potency 110, and there are times (like the Manor Maidens at Haukke Manor) where you really need that interrupt. So keep it on your crossbar, but don't lean too heavily on it.

Thanks Meenesfeja! The healer I play with uses Physik (sp?), not medica, at this time, so it's safe there.

I'm lucky to have my healer in the same room as me when we play together, haha. She alerts me *before* I lose aggro that I'm losing aggro, which gives me the impetus in time to switch targets in her defense. I lose aggro most often to DPS. If I lose it to the healer I can get it back quickly and easily. It's nearly always the DPS that strip it back, and it's usually because I haven't had the chance to build enough aggro. Or, actually, from what I've now read above, it's probably more that I haven't built enough enmity quickly enough because of unnecessary time delays due to combo-ing from the get-go (Shield Lob > Flash x2 > Combos as opposed to going straight to savage blade straight away.)

There's an old rule of thumb for parties: If the tank dies first, it's the healer's fault; if the healer dies first, it's the tank's fault. If the DDs die first, it's their own damn fault.

Ah, this makes a lot of sense now. I'll try to reserve shield bash for those sticky situations then.

And building a resistance? 2 uses before it's useless? Haha, no kidding.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Thanks Meenesfeja! The healer I play with uses Physik (sp?), not medica, at this time, so it's safe there.

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Speaking about Scholar, it is usually fairy (Eos or Selene) that pulls aggro. Whitemages are more aggro building healers, specially when they cast aoe heals. (Here you can ask your healer-friend to explain differences between both healer classes - she should know ^^)

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

I'm lucky to have my healer in the same room as me when we play together, haha. She alerts me *before* I lose aggro that I'm losing aggro, which gives me the impetus in time to switch targets in her defense.

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Yeah, I know the situation. I was playing as dps while my bf was tanking. As I was always in healer range, I told him when some mobs run astray :D
Generally it helps but you still should try to build aggro properly in order not to loose aggro on healer at all (in end game fights it could sometimes be deadly issue that healer pulls mob off tank).

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Originally Posted by Meenesfeja

Yeah, I know the situation. I was playing as dps while my bf was tanking. As I was always in healer range, I told him when some mobs run astray :D Generally it helps but you still should try to build aggro properly in order not to loose aggro on healer at all (in end game fights it could sometimes be deadly issue that healer pulls mob off tank).

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I'll definitely be practicing some of these strategies and employ the advice I've gotten to become an independent and effective tank. I guess starting out it's a bit like trying to see the forest through the trees. I understood what being a tank meant, but the mechanics and the combat have layers that I have to really get down to be a good tank.

And that's exactly what I want. Committed myself to it wholeheartedly.

Aggro/Hate:
It's not just your job to manage hate.
Especially at lower levels you lack a number of skills to establish solid hate on all mobs you're tanking.
DDs should wait a few seconds before going all out, healers can't do much if they have to heal you to prevent you from dying.
If they draw hate for that you probably took on too many mobs at once.
As GLD/PLD you'll always have a harder time holding hate of a bunch of mobs compared to MRD/WAR.
Never use Provoke to pull and always use a enmity generating attack after Provoke.

So, for your list:

- Getting over the DPS rushing ahead: You can't (well, you can if you feel like it). If they can't wait, let them die. *see above*

- Getting more self-assured: If you know the dungeon/fight in and out, you will be prepared for any situation. You know what to expect and how to handle it. Experience is king.
EDIT: The sad thing is that people expect tanks to know everything. They think as soon as you hit 50 you know how to do all endgame content.
Your best bet for harder content is to join training parties or make your own to get a feeling for it.

- Building enmity as quickly as possible: As you level up you will get more tools to work with and to make your life easier. For GLD/PLD there's only Flash/Circle of Scorn and splitting up combo to maintain hate on multiple mobs, and for quick hate you should use your combo and add your instant skills in between, then keep going with hate combo.

- Good low-mid-level combo strategies: Not sure what you mean. There is no strategy. Either use hate combo on single target or split up between multiple targets, according to enmity level, with added Flash as needed.

- Methods for marking (who first, etc): Healers -> DDs/mobs with annoying AoE or strong attacks -> Tanks, but it all depends on the situation.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Ah, this makes a lot of sense now. I'll try to reserve shield bash for those sticky situations then.

And building a resistance? 2 uses before it's useless? Haha, no kidding.

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The resistance is temporary, after sometime they are not immune anymore.
There are some Trials where PLD are on Stun duty, Ifrit Hard Mode or Chimera for example.

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Originally Posted by Thaliss

The resistance is temporary, after sometime they are not immune anymore.
There are some Trials where PLD are on Stun duty, Ifrit Hard Mode or Chimera for example.

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Ifrit got nerved, so you can't stun every eruption anymore.
And in general, it's a waste to keep a PLD on stun duty because the stun is on GCD.
It's easier for other classes to stun with off GCD skills. (WAR, DRG, MNK)
Silence with Spirits Within is something different though since it's instant and off GCD.

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Originally Posted by Kyana

EDIT: The sad thing is that people expect tanks to know everything. They think as soon as you hit 50 you know how to do all endgame content.
Your best bet for harder content is to join training parties or make your own to get a feeling for it.

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Haha, there's a degree of anxiety about this. Especially entering a dungeon for the very first time. Sastasha Seagrot was good after the second go at it, I was in the groove. When I hit Tama-tara Deepcroft I was starting to feel a bit lost, and on my first run that carried through into some mayhem in spots as DPS/DDs had their way and I was scrambling to keep heat off of them.

Still. Experience, so I'll keep trying and hopefully other players will forgive me for the mistakes I make along the way.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

And that's exactly what I want. Committed myself to it wholeheartedly.

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That's step one. :cool:

So, let's talk about Damage Dealers (DDs) for a moment. The melee types, who are the most likely to pull agro from you in that first rush to the monster, are not as heavily armored as you are, but they're armored better than the casters. They can take a little bit of damage while you re-establish enmity with your first full combo.

Also, there are self-heals that monk, for instance, has. And many players have at least a few levels of CNJ so they can get protect and cure as cross-class at low levels. (Only a couple of jobs can cross-class these, but all the classes can). So it's not as big a tragedy if your melee DDs get some agro splashed on 'em.

But by all means, keep the monsters off the casters if you can.


One thing that may help... when you zone into the dungeon, don't be afraid to say, "Hey, gang, I'm a new tank. Give me a moment on each pull before you pile on, so I can establish aggro." Then, if they still rush ahead, it's on them, not you.

I love being a tank. There's something very powerful, psychologically, about saying, "I will stand between you and danger, because I AM THE PAPASMURFING TANK!" I hope that you come to enjoy it as well. It does take practice, and thought, and you have to be on your toes. But when it comes off right, it's very rewarding.

Or at least, that's my girl-gamer perspective on it. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Kyana

Ifrit got nerved, so you can't stun every eruption anymore.

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Ifrit wasn't changed. how resistance diminishing was changed to resetting it after every stun. Not as it was before where the counter started and stayed from the first stun. Also, plumes are easy to dodge, only ones to watch for and stun are after nails after the central plumes.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

That's step one. :cool:
So, let's talk about Damage Dealers (DDs) for a moment. The melee types, who are the most likely to pull agro from you in that first rush to the monster, are not as heavily armored as you are, but they're armored better than the casters. They can take a little bit of damage while you re-establish enmity with your first full combo.

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Problems there is you are constantly chasing them instead of building up a decent amount of enmity first. Chasing the DD on enmity on the mob they decided to jump the gun on, whilst trying to prevent the other mobs from eating the healer XD Especially at a level where you dont have provoke XD. Also with voke, if they manage to get in a hard hit between voke and RoH.....

DD get hate, instead of trying to nuke harder, they should stop until tank has dragged the mob back to smacking the tank around the head again ^^

But, best advice whilst learning and low leevl is to mark targets in the kill order you want which lets you focus more enmity generation on one mob instead of trying to divide between many and possibly losing when 2 DDs are nuking 2 different mobs :D As you get more tools it does get easier to manage multiple mobs as PLD against heavy AE.

I pretty much parrot everything here.

Unfortunately, GLD at Lvl 20 is rough for tanking IMO. My secret was to mark mobs when I started a pull. If the DPS can't kill by numbers, I let them tank it. Otherwise, Shield Lob is good when you need to stun an ability (Spoiler: The handmaidens in Haukke Manor when they use the "Dark Mist" ability). Either way, like others have said, PROTECT YOUR HEALER. (especially if they know you IRL). I run with someone who heals as I tank, so we have an "understanding" (never let them die).

It gets easier when you pick up Rage of Halone (level 30), where you're just going to combo 1 mob, then the next, then the next, flashing inbetween, n repeat.

IF you're starting tanking, try out MAR. I'd never tanked before, and I find it's easier to get/hold aggro. Buuuut, you lose out on survivability later on (yes, I know the thread, but different strokes n all).

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Originally Posted by Zaero

IF you're starting tanking, try out MAR. I'd never tanked before, and I find it's easier to get/hold aggro. Buuuut, you lose out on survivability later on (yes, I know the thread, but different strokes n all).

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My experience (I'm currently leveling Marauder, and have an i78 Paladin) is that Marauder does more damage, but Gladiator generates more agro on more targets more easily. Your experience may vary. Also, the fact that Overpower does damage, and thus wakes up the mob that the mage just put to sleep, puts it in the -1 category for me.

I'd say step one is to mark the targets. You can make a macro so you mark <1> on the target you shield lob. Then do the steps others have mentioned involving Flash in order to keep hate off your healer. If a DPS targets something other than your marked monster, and they pull hate? Fuck 'em.

Oh, and also make sure to upgrade your weapon as first priority. Higher damage means more enmity, not just from your savage blade combo but also from Flash.

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Originally Posted by Zaero

It gets easier when you pick up Rage of Halone (level 30), where you're just going to combo 1 mob, then the next, then the next, flashing inbetween, n repeat.

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Rage of Halone is Level 26. Warriors get Butcher's Block, and their tank stance (Defiance) at Level 30.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

My experience (I'm currently leveling Marauder, and have an i78 Paladin) is that Marauder does more damage, but Gladiator generates more agro on more targets more easily. Your experience may vary. Also, the fact that Overpower does damage, and thus wakes up the mob that the mage just put to sleep, puts it in the -1 category for me.

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This is dependant upon party comp though. For example, as a Paladin, sometimes I end up waking sleeping mobs by accident using Circle of Scorn - which is why I always use CoS after the first Shield Lob. Similarly for Warriors, they can also cross-class Flash. Also, I've been i90 on both tank classes for the longest time, but I can't even remember the last time a mage actually slept a group. If they are going to AoE Sleep mobs, they are better off firing Fire 2/Flare instead.

When it comes to group aggro, Warrior is tops, simply because of Overpower. At the lower levels, 2x Overpowers is enough to make mobs stick to you like glue. At the higher levels, Warriors also have access to Steel Cyclone.

I don't think OP needs any more advice on this issue - there's so many good ones! But I will just add that if you need that extra oomph for snap aggro, Gladiators have access to Fight or Flight - it increases damage dealt by 30%, and aggro is directly tied to damage dealt, so you're generating 30% more aggro as well.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

I love being a tank. There's something very powerful, psychologically, about saying, "I will stand between you and danger, because I AM THE PAPASMURFING TANK!" I hope that you come to enjoy it as well. It does take practice, and thought, and you have to be on your toes. But when it comes off right, it's very rewarding.

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All good advice, thank ya!

We definitely see eye-to-eye on. What drew me to tanking was the obvious challenge, but also the fact that as the tank you're essentially a party leader. Others have to take your cues. But at the same time if you misstep others will suffer for it. It's all really quite exhilerating/frustrating/fantastic all at the same time. I'm moving toward level 30 now. In the last few levels I've had both my best instance run and my worst. The worst I was forced to leave with my healer because the DDs were running ahead, ignoring cues, pulling all of the mobs, and then running back to me. We wiped several times before we both just shook our heads and humbly left. But the best was smooth as it could have been. And from that experience I got onto the primals, and my first? Ifrit? We went to town on, a huge success, no hiccups.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Oh, and also make sure to upgrade your weapon as first priority. Higher damage means more enmity, not just from your savage blade combo but also from Flash.

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I've just been getting on to this. I read a bit about the importance of inventory levels, and a bit more about the GLD and immediately sought out better equipment. For now I'm wearing Iron Scale (it's the best I can wear atm outside of instance loot which I haven't gotten new stuff of yet), and I just went from a Maddening Blade to an Iron Spatha, while using a Warded Shield. It probably all sounds like small change to the Level 50s in here, but the difference is like day and night from what I was packing before.

Following on from all of the great advice here already, some of you have touched on Marauders. I decided against a Marauder > Warrior for my tank and put my chips into Gladiator > Paladin instead. Are there any skills a Marauder has that might be useful to a Gladiator / Paladin that're worth leveling the Marauder class to get?

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Are there any skills a Marauder has that might be useful to a Gladiator / Paladin that're worth leveling the Marauder class to get?

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Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, and situationally maybe kind of Fracture sometimes. Skull Sunder is the only one with absolutely no use.

If nothing else, you want the Marauder skills largely because the Conjurer skills PLD can use, with the exception of Stoneskin, suck. You can't Raise in combat, which is the only time Raise would really be worth taking. You don't have enough MND to make Cure worth the time it takes to cast. You'll always have a healer, so the only time you'd use Protect is when someone's been Raised in combat and somehow the healer doesn't have time to recast Protect, but you somehow do. Stoneskin is awesome, though.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Rage of Halone is Level 26. Warriors get Butcher's Block, and their tank stance.

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Ack! My error. Thats what I get for War tanking.

And Jen, I bump into the sleep issue so I usually OP before the sleep lands then single target combo.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

Foresight, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, and situationally maybe kind of Fracture sometimes. Skull Sunder is the only one with absolutely no use.

If nothing else, you want the Marauder skills largely because the Conjurer skills PLD can use, with the exception of Stoneskin, suck. You can't Raise in combat, which is the only time Raise would really be worth taking. You don't have enough MND to make Cure worth the time it takes to cast. You'll always have a healer, so the only time you'd use Protect is when someone's been Raised in combat and somehow the healer doesn't have time to recast Protect, but you somehow do. Stoneskin is awesome, though.

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At the moment I have cure on my gladiator as a replacement for pots (as they have a cooldown I can't stomach when I really need health). If my health drops below 50% I get on the cure wagon ASAP. At the moment Cure gets me a relatively quick 120ish HP back, and the casting time isn't actually that long at this level. But I imagine later in the game I'll have to give it up.

Thanks for the heads up on those skills, I'll study them and get on the Marauder class soon. Protect I really only carry when I'm going solo for a while (hunting logs, etc), because yeah, my healer buffs me plenty.

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Originally Posted by Zaero

Ack! My error. Thats what I get for War tanking.

And Jen, I bump into the sleep issue so I usually OP before the sleep lands then single target combo.

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I just got Rage of Halone, so happy days for the 3 part combo!!

:D

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

At the moment I have cure on my gladiator as a replacement for pots (as they have a cooldown I can't stomach when I really need health).

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Yeah, I should mention most of that advice applies post-job and in groups. When you're soloing, do whatever works. At lower levels, Cure is still pretty decent since the MND gap isn't as bad. And Protect is always welcome when soloing.

Foresight is worth getting soon, though. It's a level 2 skill. Not a gigantic investment of time.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

Yeah, I should mention most of that advice applies post-job and in groups. When you're soloing, do whatever works. At lower levels, Cure is still pretty decent since the MND gap isn't as bad. And Protect is always welcome when soloing.

Foresight is worth getting soon, though. It's a level 2 skill. Not a gigantic investment of time.

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Thanks again. My partner (healer) is away tomorrow and the day after so I'll likely spend that time focusing on getting CNJ to 15 and now Marauder high enough to get some of those skills, and spend the rest of the time working on my crafting classes (which I think'll be armorer/blacksmith for the sake of materia & hq gear self-sufficiency). I tend not to do instances without her because I know I can rely on her for healing (she's a healer vet from a number of different mmos), and that puts my main story quest on hold till she's available again. (Plus I feel more confident with her at my back on the first run of things.)

About crafting, your primary class will get everything from dungeons and quests. If you are more in combat raid focus on your combat class 1st.
It's interesting for following classes you want to level up
And you level far too fast to make materia worthwile before endgame. And now that you can acces "easily" gear iLvL 100 upgradable to iLvL110 (crafted only iLvL90) it is even less.

Since most everything I'd advise has already been said on the first page I'll just mention a couple little tips. Patrol mobs, being one. Pretty much everything after the HM has them. Single creatures that keep following the same route which also usually overlaps with another patrol mob. Either pull them first, ideally, or if they're far enough away from an all melee mob, grab that mob and run them back out of the patrol route. Just watch for pesky ranged creatures that may just sit there. Which brings me to ranged creatures. They can be a pain because they don't want to move and going to them often risks pulling something else. Easiest way to get them to move is to break line of sight. Pull the melee creatures in the group around a corner and the ranged attackers will come to you till they can get a clean shot off. This should allow you to then get everything in a group safely for some quick AOE burn down.

The nice thing about running with your healer in the same room is that, if the DDs are being asshats, you have enough votes to abandon the duty without eating the penalty.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Thanks again. My partner (healer) is away tomorrow and the day after so I'll likely spend that time focusing on getting CNJ to 15 and now Marauder high enough to get some of those skills, and spend the rest of the time working on my crafting classes (which I think'll be armorer/blacksmith for the sake of materia & hq gear self-sufficiency). I tend not to do instances without her because I know I can rely on her for healing (she's a healer vet from a number of different mmos), and that puts my main story quest on hold till she's available again. (Plus I feel more confident with her at my back on the first run of things.)

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If you do crafting, level them all. You'll want cross-class abilities, as well as being able to make ingredients.