Warrior Questions for the pros. Kitru, bokchoykn etc

Ok, So my tanking experience so far has consisted of me levelling a Pally to 45 and then switching to Warrior. I levelled my War to max and loved every second of it. I am Ilvl 90 now and have downed up to Ifrit Ex and T4 starting to do T5 now with my static. I have followed the forums closely and done quite a bit of research on how to play my class optimally. I don't lose hate have no problem knowing the fights in order to mitigate damage with cool-downs etc. But I still have a few questions.

First off my static group has up until lately ran with 2 Warriors with me doing most of the MT work. Lately though we have talked about switching up the composition to include a Pally and our raid leader is pushing that he starts doing the MT stuff due to being easier to heal/more consistent dam mitigation. Now I know we don't get the dam mitigation from our defiance but we do get a healing buff and we can pop our cool-downs more frequently+the added self healing we do. What I want to know is if its actually easier for a Pally to tank for the healer/better of the group. The healer has no tanking experience in FF14 and is only going off of hearsay so I would like to actually show him some data that shows the difference of a Pally and Warrior etc I know I am fully capable of downing the content as nothing has been an issue yet.

Next question is I am seeing all this talk about stat priority. I have a few questions here. I know the main things to focus on are (acc)>Vit>Strength but after that it gets a little confusing with all the talk lately. I know generally parry would be next due to the increased mitigation but from what I am seeing in that other forum is that the difference in T4 would only be half of my health mitigated in the 6min fight lol Could focusing on DPS and finishing the fight sooner be a better idea? Also I know there is a debate between DTR Crit and SS. Most agree DTR is better then crit but for the SS some says its useless and I know Kitru says its best to get more moves off in your cool-down times. If i did go with this approach what is the magic number to aim for to achieve that? Is it even possible to hit while maintaining acc cap? Wanna get this stuff figured out before getting to many pieces of soldiery lol

Thanks for any answers in advance, these forums have been a big help in really improving my game play and I have had lots say I'm the best Warrior they have played with so I feel a thanks is needed. :)

Paladin take less spiky damage as they have long lasting cool downs and can manage taking less damage over the fight. Warriors are more risky as they can potentially take a double crit from a boss and be put near death, and the bonus healing only helps if the healer has time to pull off the heal.

HOWEVER a good warrior tank that knows the fight and how to rotate defensive cool downs properly can be just as good if not better. And thats where player skill falls in place, neither tank will be worth anything unless they know what they are doing.

As for skill stat, i see it as dtr>ch>ss.

I'm no tank, but as a WHM main, I prefer healing a good WAR over a good PLD.

That's about all I can offer on the issue!

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Originally Posted by opengrip

Now I know we don't get the dam mitigation from our defiance but we do get a healing buff and we can pop our cool-downs more frequently+the added self healing we do. What I want to know is if its actually easier for a Pally to tank for the healer/better of the group.

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From a practical standpoint, there is absolutely no difference between 25% +healing/25% +hp and 20% DR. The only "mitigation" advantage that a PLD has is that WAR has 20% +healing instead of the +25% that would be required for absolute parity (the +healing that WARs bring for themselves is what makes up the difference, so there isn't actually any advantage).

WAR and PLD are ridiculously well balanced at the moment. If your PLD is claiming that they should be the MT because they take less damage, they're deluding themselves.

As to stability of the incoming damage profile, if you want to get entirely technical, WAR has a more stable incoming damage profile, assuming they're using Inner Beast (and using it properly). IB is basically the equivalent of the PLD shield. The reason that a WAR is more stable is because the DR from IB is guaranteed and predictable whereas a shield is chance based mitigation. Ergo, WAR is actually more stable, from a healing perspective, especially since a WAR is able to smooth out burst damage more effectively than a PLD. In essence, a PLD has a chance to get their "bonus" mitigation for every attack whereas a WAR can simply choose which attacks they get to apply their bonus mitigation to.

Which tank is easier to heal or better for MT/OT depends upon the content. For any fight with predictable burst damage, WAR is king thanks to IB. For any fight with an extended period of high damage, PLD is better.

It should also be mentioned that it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD because their stuff is basically set and forget (and they only have 1 combo to use) whereas WAR actually requires some level of intelligence and skill in order to play well. A good WAR is a sight to behold, but a bad WAR will make you wonder if you didn't somehow end up with a really bad DPS instead of a tank.

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Next question is I am seeing all this talk about stat priority.

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First things first. It should be mentioned that VIT and STR are basically static values. A piece of gear is going to have the exact same amount of STR and VIT as any other piece for that slot; you can't really stack STR or VIT more than any of the secondary stats.

Secondly, when discussing priority for your secondary stats, you have to ask yourself what you're going for. If you're looking for the best combination of damage and survivability, you want to go acc(til cap)>parry>crit>det>speed because crit provides more damage than det which provides more than speed. If you're looking for simply the best mitigation, you want acc(til cap)>parry>speed>crit>det because speed is going to increase your survivability more than crit or det will due to increasing your Wrath stack acquisition. If you're looking for damage, you want acc(til cap)>crit>det>parry>speed (speed is just so very, very bad).

Personally, I go for the first priority because it takes an *absurd* amount of speed to actually see practical returns and the increase in damage derived from modifying your secondary stats isn't that large in my experience (I get an extra 15-20% using DPS accs and most of that increase comes from the fact that I'm getting a buttload more STR). Once our itemization budgets get large enough that we'll be able to get GCD down to ~2.38 or so while still having enough acc as well as appreciable parry, speed will actually become something I value, but, until then, it's basically worthless.

P.S. You can get more than 1k characters per post by editing. For some reason, initial posts have a 1k limit but editing circumvents it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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Very good post. I'd like to add that as a WAR, getting to acc cap seems to be much more difficult than on PLD. You need some pretty specific pieces, especially since our relic/zenith has none on it. A balance of allagan and mythology/soldiery are very important here. This will only really pertain to you if you plan on doing T4/5. I have 1 set in which I wear 2 pieces of Maiming accs to reach cap. I sacrifice ~500 HP but gain about 20+ acc to reach cap. If/when I get the EX primal axe, this will change haha.

Also, there has been debate about the priority of parry on another thread in this board. I don't have much input one way or another, but it's a pretty interesting discussion.

First off, it is good to have both tanks in a raid. They have unique skill sets and debuffs making their pairing worth while.

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Originally Posted by opengrip

What I want to know is if its actually easier for a Pally to tank for the healer/better of the group.

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Kitru answered this well. Basically your raid leader is dumb. Either tank can MT effectively and near evenly since 2.1. Keep in mind the encounter and it's mechanics. I normally "MT" T1 Cad, T4 Dread, T5 Twin, and T6. Our PLD is great, but Warrior on T5 is pretty in your face the optimal MT because of IB. Also OT Dreadknight stunning is suited toward PLD, as well as Hallowed Ground for soaking Liquid Hells in the Link during Hatch phase. T6 Hallowed Ground for Super Slug is pretty useful and helpful for p3. You share tanking p1-p2 so that doesn't matter. The timing of Swarm makes it easy for WAR to have IB *at least* for every Swarm which helps for healing. PLD in T4 is obviously better for double dread strat which is pretty popular.

So you can quite easily see how Warrior is of at least equal footing to PLD on most occasions. It really comes down to how their unique skills and CD timers reflect best in each boss encounter. For instance it is pretty accepted for T4 double dread strat, that PLD is better for the Hallowed Ground use. Also Warrior is much much better at picking up and holding adds (not to mention some extra DD on them from Overpower/SC).

In other words.. tell your leader to use their brain. They are incredibly balanced now a days. This isn't 2.0.

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Originally Posted by opengrip

Next question is I am seeing all this talk about stat priority.

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I've stayed away from this conversation. Honestly it is splitting hairs. If you think you are MTing a fight more (T5) then throw on your parry gear. If you are OT, or content is easily on farm for your group, then throw on DET/CRIT gear. The thing to take away from people arguing over whether det/crit build is better then parry is... THEY ALL SUCK AS SECONDARY STATS. Just accept that and have peace. It'll make your gearing up a lot more enjoyable as well. Get with your tank buddy and discuss loot drops. For mine we mapped out all of T6/T7 and have been filling Soldiery in opposite spots. As gear drops, this gears us both up in tandem, and in the end helps out the raid the most.

hmmm.. post explicitly asks for a few people's opinion, with an 'etc'. Well, my static runs WAR/PLD and haven't *quite* got t7 down yet, if that counts.

t5 is a rare situation where WAR makes a good MT, and PLD makes a good OT: Inner Beast for every death sentence. PLD stoneskin after death sentence. PLD stunning Dreadknights.

PLD has Hallowed Ground, which can be useful at times. And there's Rage of Halone strength debuff.

Rampart, Sentinel, and Bulwark are pretty good for mitigating damage over a longer period of time. (Longer than Vengeance + Inner Beast)

Definitely you want WAR/PLD. Oftentimes PLD gets the nod as MT, but sometimes you use both equally. And t5 is the exception that flips that rule backwards.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

And t5 is the exception that flips that rule backwards.

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I really have to wonder why you think that "PLD is better MT" is the rule. In most of the runs that I do, I get picked as the MT, even with an equally or better geared tank, because I'm a WAR (often because the people in the group know that I'm a *good* WAR; a mediocre WAR that wastes Wrath is definitely going to cede MT to a PLD in content where all else would be equal).

Really appreciate everyone's input on my questions and concerns. Definitely helps a lot. I guess the only thing left is to wait until more proper testing is done on Parry to see if its worth it or if I shouldn't worry about it too much and just grab whatever I can as long as I have (acc)>Vit/Str. Also just curious what every does for DPS as a warrior? I can pretty consistently hit 160dps using ACT assuming I'm sticking on the target. Not sure if this is on par with everyone else or high or low. Up until now I've always heard parry didnt stack well and used Acc>Vit/Str>Dtr>CH>SS and took whatever parry I randomly got with my gear. Been considering switching to a more parry based build but seeing the low returns from the other thread makes me think twice.

You should grab whatever you can regardless. VIT>STR>Parry. Rarely will the amount of parry you get from a piece outweigh something that's a higher ilvl - the literal only exception being the Crown of Light, potentially - though the Allagan Head is better still.

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Originally Posted by Alazier

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Pretty much what he Alazier said however the new ilvl 100-110 gear has a ton of crit on it (which can be good or bad). As far as stat priority goes its up in the air until someone gets a crit build vs a det build to compare the numbers. Although I'm already getting crits for 1100+ on BB, IB and second wind with all passives, buffs and debuffs in my current gear (30 str) so I'm assuming it can only go higher.

Q1: A: Having a pld in the group is actually more preferred since bringing both tanks allows for a greater variety of adaptability when taking on bosses and phase switches. You'll need a pld in T5 since they can run across and grab snakes and sit in twins spitfire. HG is a god send.

Q2: A: Str and Vit are given on every piece of gear except the accesories which only give vit so don't worry about those. As it stands Acc > Parry > Det/Crit > SS. For wars you need parry since we can't block so once you hit the acc cap for the instance you're doing stack on the parry. Det vs Crit is up for debate but since the new 100+ gears have a ton of crit on them it might be the latter.

What does everyone in this thread think of going 30 str and str accessories as an offtank?

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Originally Posted by Ilyena

What does everyone in this thread think of going 30 str and str accessories as an offtank?

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Depends upon the content. Going 30 STR is probably not recommended because you're hurting yourself on any content that needs a durable OT, but I keep an entire allotment of DPS accs on hand (along with a gear set itemized to get me sufficient accuracy) for those fights where an OT doesn't really need to be all that durable. If I'm OT on Garuda EX, I'll swap into DPS accs because Chirada tickles; it would be more useful to increase my damage than it would to make myself hardier (I already spend 90% of that fight outside of Defiance). The same goes for t5 (use CDs on scourges and snakes when you're actually tanking) and t2 enrage. For any fight where the OT actually has to legitimately tank stuff (every other EX primal, every other coil), you shouldn't because, in those cases, there isn't an OT and an MT because you've either got 2 tanks swapping on a regular basis or both tanks taking something roughly equally powerful.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

HG is a god send.

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Well, yeah :)

Literally. Heh.

:thumbs up:

well, the only reason (not counting T5) PLD should be MT because, PLD only has 1 combo while WAR have 3. With PLD MT WAR can focus on keeping debuff up (strom's eye/path). but if you have WAR MT, they wont beable to maintain all debuff (they can keep the damage reduction debuff up but not the slash resistance), if they attemp to do that the PLD will most like over take aggro.
you just do more damage as a group when PLD is MTing

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Originally Posted by Remn

well, the only reason (not counting T5) PLD should be MT because, PLD only has 1 combo while WAR have 3. With PLD MT WAR can focus on keeping debuff up (strom's eye/path). but if you have WAR MT, they wont beable to maintain all debuff (they can keep the damage reduction debuff up but not the slash resistance), if they attemp to do that the PLD will most like over take aggro.
you just do more damage as a group when PLD is MTing

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This is SO wrong, I cant even begin to dissect it.
Just ignore all information Remn stated please.

Wrong or not that just my opinion and how I approach the fight. if you dont like it, then just ignore it ;P

I can't remember how many time i pull of WAR who try to keep both strom debuff on boss 100% (uptime) and I end up having to hold back and stop atking (even on Sword oath). which is why I perer to do it this way.

There a lot of factor for who better tanking base on how the fight goes and the group strategis, but this is generally how I approach it. ^^'

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Originally Posted by Remn

I can't remember how many time i pull of WAR who try to keep both strom debuff on boss 100% (uptime) and I end up having to hold back and stop atking (even on Sword oath). which is why I perer to do it this way.

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If you're actually pulling off of a WAR MT as a PLD OT while in SwO, you're either dealing with a WAR that doesn't know what they're doing or you're ignoring Conflags. I use SE>SP as my primary rotation when I'm MT, but I do so because I actually know how to build up a large enough enmity cushion that no one is going to pull off of me before I start up said low enmity rotation.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you're actually pulling off of a WAR MT as a PLD OT while in SwO, you're either dealing with a WAR that doesn't know what they're doing or you're ignoring Conflags. I use SE>SP as my primary rotation when I'm MT, but I do so because I actually know how to build up a large enough enmity cushion that no one is going to pull off of me before I start up said low enmity rotation.

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I never pull aggro off WAR in T5 since I have to tank the 3 add and by the time they die, MT would be so far ahead in aggro. I know that a good WAR can keep both debuff up, given that they build enough lead, but that also mean the slashing debuff wont be up at the begining untill the lead is big enough. (that why i said it not 100% uptime)

This is just me but I like to have PLD start the fight since WAR can goes into debuff rotation right off the bat.

the fight that i usually pull off WAR is the mostly Titan and Iffit (hard and ex) PRE 2.2 or any fight that require OT and MT to stay on the same target for a few minute.

the concept of MT and OT dont really apply to new primal ex fight anyway xD.

on Levi you have Head tank and Tail tank (well, basically the boss got 2 different aggro table lol) WAR better at tanking Head, PLD is better at tail (due to chain stun and all tail damage are physical, so block and parry come into play)
i never really count how long between each cast of dread tide from the head. (it come after every 3rd auto atk) if it mroe than 24 sec WAR should beable to IB every Dread tide.
on Mog x, both tank pick up PLD and WAR mog then swap boss.

fot T6-9,
T6, WAR is better for tanking on final Phase, due to IB every swarm and PLD can hold slug w/ flash. (WAR cant do that w/ OP since it will damage slug)
T7, dont really matter who MT since the boss hit like a GIRL!! (well pretty sure the boss is female lol) the only point where OT matter is the first 3 malee add, they hit like a truck lol
T8, popular strat is to go 1 tank, i believe
T9, no idea yet xP

Am I late to the party?

RE: Warrior vs Paladin

Warrior's Defiance is actually very close to equal with Paladin Shield Oath.

Suppose a Warrior and Paladin each had 6000 base HP. With Defiance, the Warrior now has 7500 HP. An attack that would do 750 damage to the Warrior would do 600 damage to the Paladin (because of Shield Oath), each equating to 10% of their respective max HP worth of damage. Here is the subtle difference: To heal the damage from this attack, the Paladin needs 600 points of healing and the Warrior needs 625. Basically, what you can take away from this is that they are equal in terms of effective HP, but Paladins are 4.2% easier to heal than Warriors.

This is before you take into account other differences like: Paladins can block, Warriors cannot. Storm's Path debuff is better than Rage of Halone's debuff. Warrior major defensive cooldowns have higher uptime, while Paladin's defensive cooldowns are generally more potent. Warriors have a tiny bit of self healing.

The advantage when it comes to overall survivability leans in favor towards Paladin, but the difference in marginal. Any healer who tells you they notice a huge difference is either lying or delusional.

When it comes to who should MT and who should OT, it completely depends on the fight. For example:

• Turn 4: Paladin's more concentrated cooldowns and Hallowed Ground makes them better equipped to deal with Dreadnaughts. Warrior's superior snap aggro, AoE aggro and damage makes them better equipped to deal with Knights and Soldiers.
  
  
• Turn 5: Warrior's on-demand cooldown from Inner Beast can make sure they never take an unmitigated Death Sentence, making them the ideal MT. Paladin's no-cooldown stun from Shield Bash makes them the ideal OT for Dreadknights.
  
  
• Leviathan: Warrior's Storm's Path reduces damage from Tidal Waves while Rage of Halone does not, making them the better MT. Paladin's Shield Bash makes them better at dealing with the caster Sahagin, similar to Turn 5 Dreadknights.

RE: Stat Priority

Besides Vitality and Strength, Accuracy capping is obviously important. You don't want any chance of a crucial attack missing at the wrong time. The rest of the secondary stats are crap and whichever ones you choose, you're splitting hairs here.

Most people will tell you that Parry is more important than everything else. All "Best-in-Slot" lists are based on this concept. To put it into perspective, 50 Parry increases your Parry chance by roughly 4%. Each Parry mitigates roughly 25%. Therefore, 50 Parry increases your overall average damage mitigation by less than 1% and only against attacks that can be parried.

Offensive stats work the same way. People will tell you Det and Crit > SS. There are merits to all three of these and you'll never reach a consensus as to which is better than which. The differences are insignificant.

Overall, I honestly don't care where my secondary stats are as long as 1) Accuracy cap is being met and 2) I don't have an excessive amount of Accuracy. You can make a case between what's better between damage or parry, but it's completely encounter/role dependant and we're splitting hairs here. Absolute best-in-slot lists are silly and the people who religiously follow them are silly.

Don't waste your time. Focus more on making sure you don't waste any gear upgrades by coordinating with the other tank in your static as far as who gets what, and how to spend your Soldiery.

Warriors arent off tanks because paladins are better main tanks, but because we are better off tanks.

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Originally Posted by Megido

Warriors arent off tanks because paladins are better main tanks, but because we are better off tanks.

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Someone has neither read the thread nor actually looked at what the jobs are actually capable of.

Class composition doesnt matter in this game, play what you want.