Tank's hate generation "reduced"?

I main an bard and sec a PLD but I haven't been playing PLD since 2.2

I've read on reddit on one thread that there was a feeling that enmity generation for tanks "seems" to be reduced. One WAR says that his opening rotation used to generate almost unbreakable hate but now it doesn't appear so.

For those who can understand Japanese - there's a thread suggesting the same thing over at the Japanese side:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...BE%97%E9%87%8F

And of course, I've been noticing that my own enmity (as a BRD) is going higher than usual. There are a lot of occasions that I'm close to pulling off aggro where I don't use to in 2.1 and of course, there are also frequent occasions that I pulled aggro off a i90 tank (I would presume that they shouldn't be slacking since this doesn't really happen in 2.1). Last night's high level roulette, one of the PLD was telling me my hate was "not joking" (translation from Japanese).

Any main tanks that felt the same?

So far the only time I have threat issues was when I was doing 4 man instances during the intense lag period. Due to the combo not activating. Bards arent very affected by this, thanks to not having the need to combo anything.

It seems off but I'm also blaming the lag for this, after the maintenance we'll have to see I guess.

I would welcome a bit more challenge in hate management.
Right now, holding hate of a single mob is a joke and if you know what you do, holding groups is not much harder either.

I'd rather have to manage hate instead of only dealing with near-instant-death moves and a tank swap here and there, which seem to be the only thing SE can think of to make tanking difficult.

I haven't had any issues aside from when I get those overzealous BLM's triple flaring small groups of mobs off the bat.

I feel like I need to work a bit harder to keep the enmity bars down, closer to pre-2.1 than after it, but so far I've just been telling myself it's because myth is uncapped so the DPS are just overall better geared.

Or maybe it is the lag.

I will say though, that Flash is horrid for AoE hate. I have a far easier time holding packs on my ilvl84 War with base Bravura than my ilvl90 Pld with Curtana Zenith.

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Originally Posted by Bamboofox

I will say though, that Flash is horrid for AoE hate. I have a far easier time holding packs on my ilvl84 War with base Bravura than my ilvl90 Pld with Curtana Zenith.

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I've personally felt that that is the way it should be, just by taking into account class skill design. Warrior's always felt like the "Off-tank" of the two. Between Steel Cyclone, Overpower, and the lack of an enmity mod on their buff/debuff combo it just feels like it should be an off-tank. Which I'm fine with.

As to the enmity change... I have noticed a bit of difference myself as well and while I'm not sure if it is because of lag, it is something I welcome. I prefer a system where the whole party has to work on enmity management, not just the tank.

It felt more difficult at first but i believe its dps scaling up in gear and unleashing all they have. I improved my combo and got better gear then things went back to normal

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

04/02/14 Rep/Dev Posts

1. - Some tanks have been reporting the rate of enmity gained seems to have changed since 2.1. Rep confirms that nothing have changed, but if players noticed a change if they can report them through bug reports so they can investigate.

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I'd say it's probably just the lag situation and gear disparity.

I haven't noticed any difference on PLD or WAR. Occasionally, I would steal threat from my a tank but it's obvious that I popped CD and he didn't pop Fight or Flight or Unchained/Berserk.

I've noticed that I'm having a harder time holding hate in 4 man instances with both my warrior and paladin. I had issues holding hate seed running WP and Brayflox's HM, as well running as Halatali HM normally, with my paladin. My warrior seemed to hold aggro better than paladin. It's almost like they nerfed flash. In turn 2, my Summoner pulled aggro right off the tank on the disposal node on my first fester. I was using raging strikes, but I gave him time to land a combo by putting shadow flare down first. That is the only 8 man where I've seen a tank have issues. Ran turn 4 as warrior last night and had zero issues holding mobs.

Haven't noticed a change so far. I'll keep an eye on it though.

I think that the DPS are better quality at least in DF for the new 4 mans. Aside from better gear, the progressive players are out in force trying to cap their soldiery. It seems to me that in even before 2.1, and not soon after, most of these same players were already geared out and may have only appeared sporadically in DF doing dailies. In 2.2, I've seen high DPS parses more frequently when using DF or doing expert daily. With that said, any lost hate seems easily recovered though, and its mostly a stray mob in a big pull like in Brayflox. I have not yet noticed healers pulling more hate in 2.2 in the 4 mans.

Was pulling off aggro a couple of times from the tank again, even in Stone Vigil (doing my Trial of the Brave) earlier.

What I've noticed is that PLD seems to be more vulnerable to such issues. In fact all the aggro I've pulled or close to pulling are all PLD. The Japanese thread in OP seems to suggest so too. WAR doesn't seem to be affected or affected as much, but my raid's WAR told me that in 2.1 he could get away without Defiance on for dungeon stuffs but right now he don't think he can get away with it anymore.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...11#post1999511

Official answer posted to JP forum. In summary, "Nothing changed about hate generation. But if you noticed something wrong, you can post to bug-report forum. We checked one reported issue but it was normal behavior."
Sorry for my poor English, Thank you.

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Originally Posted by HeavyRain

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...11#post1999511

Official answer posted to JP forum. In summary, "Nothing changed about hate generation. But if you noticed something wrong, you can post to bug-report forum. We checked one reported issue but it was normal behavior."
Sorry for my poor English, Thank you.

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Thanks for your update, I didn't actively follow that thread so I didn't notice the update. Your English is good, I wish I can speak Japanese as well as you could speak English :)

That would explain why switching back to level Warrior it feels much weaker in the threat department. Instantly noticeable for me and quite annoying for that first DF group after weeks.

As a PLD, I've noticed this, too. It's not just flash, I try comboing to pull off a monk, and it's all I can do to keep up. I never had this problem before 2.2. It's gotten to the point where my FC would rather not speedrun with a PLD.

Never lost hate in 2.0, never lose hate now. Less or more, doesn't matter to me.

After running a few more dungeons, I've only had threat issues with a scaled down bard. Thinking back, my original issue was also with a few scaled down bards.

Opening with Toma -> Butcher's Block combo x2 and as I finish the second or right before it, there's a bard getting his nose chewed on.

I could just be running into Bards that have no concept of throttling against a leveling tank or something could be off else where. They did seem to hesitate on the pull but, who knows after that.

The only time I have started to see enmity issues are when groups hit max echo buff in trials. Healers and DPS scale a hell of a lot better than our enmity. Those Medica II spams at 25/50% increase.... makes me feel like we are back in 2.0

I have experienced this earlier today actually,my starting Shield Lob>FB>SB>ROH rotation doesn't pull as much anymore I have been spamming Flash trying to keep the mobs in line now,something that didn't happen before the patch.I had to constantly run and hope to pull enemies from Archer and BLM who had somehow pulled way more hate that I did in my starting rotation?...I was trying to think of what was the cause of this.My skills not being the reason as I have all the MRD buffs and cross-class skills I need.

I think the problem is caused by the increased hp of the monsters in the new dungeons causing fights to last longer.

The 495 enmity generated by a flash lasts the same amount of time in a fight, but lasts a lesser percentage of the fight in a longer fight.

I lost Chirada as an i86 war OT in extreme mode to a blm who was decently geared but not spectacular. He used flare just as i was pulling to position her for tornado phase. I had opened with tomohawk. Berserk steel cyclone before he popped flare. This did not happen before for me
Of note this was after getting a few echo buffs.
I'm guessing its a one of thing as I havnt noticed any hate issues otherwise

People are jumping the gun and not allowing tanks to build hate. First let the tank build hate then start attacking. I bet something was changed but not noted in the patch notes and its the reason people are having issues getting hate.

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Originally Posted by Moonwolfthegrey

I lost Chirada as an i86 war OT in extreme mode to a blm who was decently geared but not spectacular. He used flare just as i was pulling to position her for tornado phase. I had opened with tomohawk. Berserk steel cyclone before he popped flare. This did not happen before for me
Of note this was after getting a few echo buffs.
I'm guessing its a one of thing as I havnt noticed any hate issues otherwise

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Stupid BLM - also, I would recommend trying to queue up a Butcher's Block for an immediate huge enmity hit, then tomahawking until she's back with you.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

People are jumping the gun and not allowing tanks to build hate. First let the tank build hate then start attacking.

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^^ DPS that used to be undergeared could pre-cast a Thunder III or start a BRD rotation just as the Tank was arriving at a mob. Now they your average "uneducated PUG" (I tried to make that the least derisive I could, but I failed) will be i90 almost certainly, with more power behind their attacks than they know how to manage. Meanwhile, none of the "pro tanks" have had time to grind out full Animus, or more than maybe 1 or 2 pieces of i100/i110 armor. Making the disparity go from i84-i90 to i90-i92, putting the untrained DPS much closer to the tank.

What I can't explain very well is what I have been noticing in things like T5 and Titan X. I am seeing some inconsistency that I never have before in terms of enmity management. An i91 WAR was pulling hate from an i88 PLD out of Defiance, while claiming NOT to be using enmity generation cool downs. Did that PLD suck? Maybe, but Shield Oath + RoH combo should be untouchable by any one within 6 or 7 iLVLs not in a tanking stance.

In T5 I play off-tank, and my i89 PLD was either woefully behind the dps in Sword Oath (Stoneskinning MT before each Death Sentence), or I was pulling hate in Shield Oath before the first Nuerolink was being laid down. Granted as the person generally responsible for raid strategy I wasn't exactly monitoring my hate with a microscope as I called out mechanics and gave tips and tweaks to FC mates, I never had that issue one time in T5 before 2.2 - Sword Oath RoH spam + CoS/SW on CD while SSing the MT before DS's was always put me at about 75% of the hate bar, which was about 20-30% ahead of our DRG, the next highest.

Couple of anomalies? Probably/perhaps. I am noticing I have to pay much more acute attention to my hate as an off-tank than I used to to make sure I'm not turning cleaving mobs on my group mates.

In my limited experience as a lv 45 warrior it's only been bards that get close to pulling off me. Don't know if it's just because they can pretty much always be attacking but that's the only class I notice getting close to a full enmity bar. So long as they follow my marks though I've yet to lose anything.

I have not had any experiences with echo yet, and from most peoples accounts it seems to be with echo when there are issues.

I forgot to put up defiance in Levi Ex this am, and held hate (ilv92 BLM, BLM and SMN for dps) with near 100% uptime of storms path, and did not notice it until the first spume phase when my health dropped a bit too low for my comfort. Given this, i'd say its not an issue in general, but maybe just with how things scale with echo? Also, as a geared tank, you realy do not the extra HP from echo, so switch off some of your VIT accessories for STR ones and maybe the threat issues with echo will go away.

I've also noticed a fight for enmity especially with those Black Mages i think enmity may have been reduced for tanks but it just means you have to put more effort in than just flash spams and riot blade combo's

its the damn dps. they think just because circle of scorn goes off or flash its ok to start dropping bombs with buffs and food on... no i need a CoS and a flash before youre dumb ass starts aoe rotation with buffs up. but you cant tell a DPS anything all they care about is trying to be on top. then they want to blame the tank. and SE wonders why theres a lack of tanks. they need a slight SLIGHT damage increase and at least 1 more AoE for pld flash dont do shit when its raining arrows or flares are flying.

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Originally Posted by Legionius

After running a few more dungeons, I've only had threat issues with a scaled down bard. Thinking back, my original issue was also with a few scaled down bards.

[[...]]

I could just be running into Bards that have no concept of throttling against a leveling tank or something could be off else where. They did seem to hesitate on the pull but, who knows after that.

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As someone who mains WAR and has been leveling BRD, I think this has to do with the ridiculous burst potential of bards compared to tanks in the level range. I've honestly started waiting for the tank to get a massive threat lead before using any direct damage on the pull. If they get some AoE threat going, I'll put up my two dots on everything in the pull first, then pop a cooldown and wail on the first target (which is usually half dead by this point). Never pulled threat early this way!

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

As someone who mains WAR and has been leveling BRD,

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It mostly has to do with BRD's being ranged attackers and they don't have to build up most of their Damage abilities more than anything. Even targeting will trigger Auto-attack, they get 4 damage boost abilities, can indefinitely have +10% Crit Rate, can throw up 3 DoT's, and crits on Venom/Wind can reset Bloodletters non-GCD cooldown, and all can go on before the tank can even reach the target (which is partially why I prefer Flash to pull, because I'll be in range before DPS can do anything). Considering Tanks have to build up their Hate at the start, a BRD's potential burst damage can really screw things up if they're not paying attention, usually you won't have issues like this with MNK or DRG because they need to build up some of their damage abilities as well as be in close proximity of their target.

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

As someone who mains WAR and has been leveling BRD, I think this has to do with the ridiculous burst potential of bards compared to tanks in the level range. I've honestly started waiting for the tank to get a massive threat lead before using any direct damage on the pull. If they get some AoE threat going, I'll put up my two dots on everything in the pull first, then pop a cooldown and wail on the first target (which is usually half dead by this point). Never pulled threat early this way!

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Probably. Was running with my raid leader who was a PLD in Cutter's Cry for Trials of the Brave, I would pull mobs even if it's just spreading DoTs lol. Told him I prolly can't go ape shit if he doesn't have his Circle of Scorn and stuff, but he asked me to go ahead he'll adjust. I saw him keep rotating RoH combos on the mobs instead of the usual flash flash flash.

On lvl 50 fights I don't really pull aggro from my raid tanks except when I went a bit overboard lol.

BRD prolly just communication issues. When I play as tank in DF/pug I usually assume normal pace so I just flashed and hardly rotate RoH on mobs and usually there isn't an issue, but it will become an issue if your BRD is damn on the ball lol.

Experienced this tonight in Halitai HM. I didn't notice any lag but it was pretty rough keeping hate off an ok geared dragoon and bard. I'm using melded I70 accessories too as PLD with around 420 STR. Flash was barely making a dent on healer aggro. Each person was taking a different mob which is fine as I would drop whole RoH combos. When rotating through mobs I could barely keep hate.
It felt like I wasn't using Shield Oath. I've started fights without it before and it seemed very similar. Especially with how useless Flash seemed. I cycled it on and off a few times but it didn't seem to help.