PLD or MRD?

I know this is a question that is asked constantly, but i need to lvl a tank for my FC. I was wanting some outside opinion on which class is better in certain situations. With my playstyle i just enjoy doing my job and doing it properly, thats when i get the most enjoyment when my party can rely on me to do my job at the best of my ability. So from experienced tanks if you could i would like your thoughts on which class may be better or fit my playstyle.

Thank you!

You haven't really defined your play style. :P

I think paladins are easier to manage at the higher levels but a lot of people have more aggro issues at the lower levels.
Warriors take a bit more paying attention to skills at the higher levels to mitigate damage. Holding aggro with overpower is ridiculously easy but sometimes requires some positioning to get all the mobs in a cone.

Warriors have 1 less piece of equipment, so I suppose that gives then an advantage in gear.
It also depends on what cross-class skills you already have / wouldn't mind getting. I love having stoneskin on PLD but I don't know if you also want to get CNJ to 34.

Bear or Lion? :D

I would lean more towards WAR. Just because they're a bit more fluid and 'fun' (subjective, i know) to play.
They are a bit harder to master because of the number of debuffs and counters you have to babysit.

Whilst Pallies are just slightly more reliable due to their low complexity and high number of cooldowns. And personally i find pld a bit more robust when it comes to recovering from missteps (hallowed ground).

I have both WAR & PLD - they're equally geared. And use the WAR 95% of the time.
Though I tend to use the PLD when im trying out new content that im not familiar with (or if i want to run a dungeon without too much thinking).

I love my war levelled gld to 22 and gave up ... I found it boring and lost agro very easily

The way I see it Pld is the better tank in most situations, but could revolve around a few things.
Is the other tank a Pld if so the going war might be better, assuming the Pld can fit there needed requirements.

Since I play both and enjoy both kinda falls into "I prefer to MT" but one might be better then the other at certain things. The bar kinda leans in Pld's favor for this -pre patch-.

Consistent dmg or need consistent migration? Pld
Know the fight? Not much consistent dmg but dmg is more timed/spiked? War
Need silence? Pld
Need Stun? Pld
Need a good OT? War(since debuffs)

Here's my list:
T1: Pld(since I silence, if 3+ stacks)
T2: Pld(since I silence)
T4: Pld(since i MT)
T5: War(Better MT, pld is needed to stun dreads unless your running like mnk+drg or dps is really high, RoH debuff helps tho) If i got Pld on this it's straight Str accessory/myth wait over allagn etc.

hm's:
Ifrit: War
Garuda: Pld
Titan: War or Pld
Ultima: War

EX:
Garuda: War
Titan: adds?War/ MT:Pld
Ifrit: War

Relic quest:
Chim: War
Hydra: Pld

4man dungeons: Pld

So it's boils down to what is more effective to play, it that case Pld and War. War is more fun to play but having healer jobs/2nd char is healer only. I'd vote Pld but a good War is uh good>_>. Hate is not really a issue for either unless your fighting for hate.

So Id say both or just pick the one you prefer to play.

Thaks for all the advice, and yeah sorry about the lack of my playstyle its really late and i'm trying to stay awake for the servers to open haha, and do they only get a certain mount? like WAR warbear and PLD warlion? Thanks again though that does help alot

first of all, should be "PLD vs WAR" 2nd of all... if you arent a great player, PLD will make up for it. Its generally the easier, safer tank. WAR is just F.U.N. I play a War, would never go back to Paladin

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Originally Posted by SwordArt

Thaks for all the advice, and yeah sorry about the lack of my playstyle its really late and i'm trying to stay awake for the servers to open haha, and do they only get a certain mount? like WAR warbear and PLD warlion? Thanks again though that does help alot

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The mounts are new with the patch and yes WAR = bear and PLD = lion but you need to run 200 EX primals or coil turns to get them .. so no rush. :)

I have a 50 pld and 50 war in the exact same gear darklight+relic and this is what I found on testing them both

The common idea is pld for MT and war for OT but I think this is too generic to follow. For example on titan I like having inner beast constantly rdy for mountain blast and found that to be more beneficial than when I tanked him on pld. This is not to say that this works everyplace but just something I noticed.

So basically this is what I found

solo Warrior is way stronger with all the damage based healing

PLD mixes both mana and TP into tanking making it way easier to non stop pull. Not to say warrior can't but I can dump TP with OP if situation gets bad pretty easy where pld is just rdy to go right after.

I found multiple mobs are easier to hold threat with overpower than with flash. Easier is relative as in I am always way up on threat after 2 overpower where 3 flashes only put me at an advantage.

Overpower does damage which is nice

....

PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff

PLD does slightly more damage than warrior. I was really surprised by this. If you want to test this out kill a few enemies in a row and count how many global cooldowns you go through. PLD was always sightly lower in all scenario based test cases.

Warrior is way easier to level, PLD should get shield oath at 40 and not 50 to balance this.

When OT and not tanking taking off vengence and using damage rotation on warrior doesn't shoot you up in threat. I have pulled off tanks before on accident with sword oath on just doing normal DPS rotation when I wasn't main tanking.

PLD flash is 360 degrees and overpower is about 45 degrees, this matters and makes group pulls much easier

PLD has 2 abilities off global rotation making it more interactive on pulls where warrior only has 1 on a decent CD.

On PLD you can tank bosses with DPS mode (sword oath) fairly easily contributing higher damage to group.

Inner beast is up quickly so high burst bosses can have a 20% mitigation fairly easily.

PLD has a stun on a low CD that can be handy. I like to stun last mob in groups at half health and run to get the next group in dungeons.

PLD cross class imo is better than warriors. I have been in a boss fight where healer dies and I live through it because I have cure and can pop Convalescence and cure. Pug doesn't bring a lot to table other then 2 ok buffs.

I find some things like Holmgang and Mercy Stroke useless on warrior. Really useless for tanking.

Hallowed Ground is great to have.

I think in general these two tanks are very balanced but the things I listed above are just slight nuances I have noticed.

WAR has good aoe damage (at the cost of TP). PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

I prefer 1h weapons and melee/spellcaster hybrids, so PLD made sense. That and I really don't like overpower spam.

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Originally Posted by Set

PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff

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Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown. But it's still useful so it's worth saving for more of an emergency rather than being an essential part of a PLD's rotation.

I find WAR's do better at aoe tanking, as Flash's effects are dubious at times under the best of circumstances, as are the effects of Circle of Scorn. PLD's are more healer efficient, their damage mitigation translating to more efficient spells for the healer, and generally make better single, large target tanking easier.

In the end, they're about neck and neck, although this is the first time I've ever heard that PLD's damage output was higher than WAR's. Shield Oath is generally a staple in groups not for the threat generation (although it helps considerably, especially for fighting for area threat), but that incidental healer efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

PLD doesn't but does have better single target damage and more mitigation skills.

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Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown.

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You're so very wrong about Convalescence. First off, I find it hard to believe that you could say that 30% +healing for PLD and 20% +healing for WAR is "not very potent"; that's greater mean mitigation contributions than Rampart, for PLD, and as much as Defiance, for WAR, both of which would probably be considered to be pretty potent tank CDs. Convalescence is actually the second strongest CD (not counting Inner Beast) that WAR has (Vengeance is 30% for 15 every 120; Conv is 20% for 20 every 120). The only "weakness" of Convalescence is that it doesn't provide any increase to eHP, which shouldn't really be a problem if you know how and when to use it (especially if there's a SCH in your group).

As to the CD, Conv is actually one of the fastest CDs that PLDs get. Rampart and Foresight have 90 sec CDs, but Bulwark and Sentinel have 180 sec CDs and HG is 7 minutes. As such, Conv is only slightly slower than Rampart/Foresight (and provides a bigger buff than either), but significantly lower than Bulwark or Sentinel (and provides a buff nearly on par with Sentinel with a longer duration to boot).

Also, as to the quoted statement, he was most likely referring to the differences between Shield Oath and Defiance, as opposed to a holistic view of all of their capabilities. Holistically, WAR and PLD actually have virtually identical mean mitigation and eHP even if they do so with different mechanisms.

Well the name says it all "paladin" and check out all the final fantasy series regarding paladin. I would prefer if warrior had been a DPS role.
Keep in mind warrior user's 2 hand weapons, one would think since the warrior user's that there would be more damage output.
I hope if they are making a class's such as samurai or dark knight not to make them as tanks lol

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Originally Posted by Jediman

I hope if they are making a class's such as samurai or dark knight not to make them as tanks lol

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One or both of these classes will likely be tanks or have a tanking mode that's at least good enough for light parties if not raiding. What exactly would be wrong with this?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Actually this isn't totally correct - PLD does have a healing buff, from GLA (Convalescence), however, it's not very potent and has a fairly long cooldown. But it's still useful so it's worth saving for more of an emergency rather than being an essential part of a PLD's rotation.

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I am speaking to Defiance passive healing buff not a CD related healing. Convalescence is irrelevant because either class/Job can have it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Wrong on both counts.

WAR has noticeably more ST damage than PLD does; on the order of 10-15% more, in fact. PLD can get close when they're fighting a target under the WAR slashing resist debuff, but, even then, a WAR is still going to edge them out. Outside of tank stance, it gets closer, but WAR still has an advantage. The reason that Set most likely thought that PLD did more damage was because WAR actually has ramp up time (i.e. getting Maim and SE up), which is going to deflate WAR damage by a lot when you're bouncing from one target to the next and killing each of them in less than 10 seconds. Of course, if he's just spamming BB, it's self evident that he'd be doing more damage, but, at that point, he's not comparing a bad WAR against a good PLD, which is an unequal comparison.

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Ok give numbers, I showed a way to test it.
My tests where
1. Test with sheild oath and defiance
2. Test with sword oath and no defiance
3. Test shield oath to no defiance
using
1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation
And i tested against
1. level 50 mobs 10 each counting the number of GCD off the best DPS rotations on both jobs
2. 3 boss fates, the ones you have to do for CT because i knew they where always empty.

Every single test pld came out on top with damage. You don't have to take my word for it just test it there is nothing to argue. I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

As to mitigation skills, if you're talking the number of (effective) tank CDs, PLD and WAR have the same number of mitigation skills. PLD has HG, Rampart, Bulwark, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Foresight (6); WAR has Foresight, Holmgang, Convalescence, Vengeance, ToB, and Featherfoot (6). If you want to include anything that contributes mitigation, WAR actually has more because of Inner Beast. The difference between the mitigation abilities that PLD has and those that WAR has is that the WAR CDs are weaker but available much more often, which is a perfectly good trade-off (I actually prefer the lower CDs because I can actually *use* my CDs without ever worrying if I might need it more later).

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It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.

I recommend leveling them both up to Brayflox L32, run that on both; whichever one you like best at that point take to L50 first.

I guess 1 obvious answer is being ignored as well. Both

This is what I did and really like having both tanks I can sub in where they fit best.

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

One or both of these classes will likely be tanks or have a tanking mode that's at least good enough for light parties if not raiding. What exactly would be wrong with this?

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I rather have them fulfill their job roles DPS stays as DPS and vice versa. or we can always have healers as tanks and act like paladins lol

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Originally Posted by Set

1. warrior tank Butcher's Block rotation
2. warrior DPS Storm's Path/Storm's Eye rotation
3. paladin Rage of Halone rotation

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None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

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I can record it if you really don't believe. This is completely removing gear from the analysis as well because they both have same conceptual gear.

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And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

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It has nothing to do with the number of mitigation abilities, it is the total amount of damage mitigated. If I gave you 30 abilities that mitigate 1% does that make it better than vengence because you have 30 of them. Warriors have increased HP and healing for a reason, they can't mitigate damage like a paladin with a shield.

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First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

Quote: Theorycraft garbage that stopped being relevant 4 months ago.

Response: WAR is your active management tank, PLD has more straightforward traditional tanking abilities. And my "more" I mean its ability are closer in usage to a standard sword and board tanking class, not that they are more numerous.

The thing I will bring to the conversation is that I think it is a lot harder to be an adequate WAR than PLD. I also think that it is a lot harder to be an exceptional PLD than WAR.

It's generally safe to say that PLD's reduce incoming damage significantly better than WAR's (which is why wars have a thick HP pool). Shield Oath, Rampart, Convalescence, Sentinel, and Hallowed Ground skills are all a part of the core paladin skillset, and I don't believe the WAR has nearly as many universally effective options (Foresight isn't effective against magic damage, for example)

Paladins have only one DOT AOE effect at their disposal by comparison, and alongside Flash, constitute a Paladins' entire array of area control abilities. Warriors will almost always excel in multitarget control over a paladin. They are *slightly* weaker when it comes to absolute threat control of single targets in that they have to borrow Provoke from Gladiators, but there's no real difference in effect for either class.


Short end:
Paladins excel in single, heavy-damage target tanking, particularly when magic damage is involved, but can struggle controlling large numbers of targets without being very up-to-date in gear
Marauders excel in multitarget control, hands down, no contest, and can survive just about any single high damage hit, but are generally not as efficient to be taking sustained dps from a single source for long. Being a 'second up'-flavored tank comes with better damage output in general.

In the end, they're close enough that it doesn't matter who's actually tanking. The rule of thumb for MT/OT still stands: the best equipped should step forward, although in an either/or situation, the paladin should probably be the one holding the Big Bad down.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

None of those is the top WAR DPS rotation. BB>SE is the top damage rotation. If you're doing it right, every rotation except for BB spam is going to do more damage than PLD as well.

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so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

Butcher's Block
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Combo Action: Skull Sunder, Combo Potency: 280.

Storm's Eye
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Maim, Combo Potency: 270
Combo Bonus: Decreases target's slashing resistance by 10% and HP recovery via curing magic by 50% for 15s.
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance for 30s.

So here are the options on rotations and your BB->SE doesn't fill anyone of them
1) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
2) Heavy Swing > Maim
3) Maim > Storm's Path
4) Maim > Storm's Eye
5) Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block
6) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path
7) Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye
8) Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block

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Originally Posted by Kitru

And I've done tests with parsers as well as done the math on potency per GCD numerous times. WAR, when properly played, does more damage. The only way PLD does better is if the WAR is doing it wrong (which is what you're doing, looks like). Because it's basically impossible to screw up a PLD, people that don't know what they're doing are going to see better damage on a PLD, but that doesn't mean that PLD does more damage than a WAR.

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So You ran the math and have parsers, lets see them. I can say I wrote a mod that screen scrapes them both and I found PLD do 500 more DPS than warrior. Doesn't mean it is true just means I can type words too. Like I said I don't need to argue it you can just find out for yourself using GCD counting on killing mobs. I explained my methods how about you explain yours. I am open to being proven wrong but proven is the key word I am not taking your word for it.

Also from your Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye explanation above it is obvious you don't know basic rotations.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

First off, you're the one that brought up the number. You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out. Secondly, "mitigation" is not the same thing as "damage reduction" even if the two terms are often conflated by the uneducated. Increased healing received *is* mitigation because it means that you need less healing to offset the same amount of incoming damage so it's not even true to say that PLD has more damage mitigation overall.

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No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

And Kitru please point to your post here http://tinyurl.com/l76sdsd so I can completely annihilate your failure to compensate for a ton of things.

See the thing you lack is empirical data, all of your data is theoretical and ephemeral.

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Originally Posted by Set

so you do Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye, you must do horrible damage then read the abilities. You completely ignore maim for damage buff and have 2 abilities that are not even in rotation nerfing the damage on them.

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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? BB>SE refers to using the relevant combos in that order. Hell, you even use a similar model when you described your method. Being able to copy-paste ability descriptions doesn't really mean anything when you're incapable of actually understanding what's being discussed.

If you want simple evidence, just do the math for the explicit potency/GCD that WAR and PLD are each capable of. Unless you want to believe that PLD somehow gets more out of each individual point of potency than WAR does, you're doing it wrong. Hell, I seriously doubt that you're actually counting GCDs properly if that's really what you're doing over long periods of time.

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No I said "PLD has a higher mitigation than warrior but less HP and no healing buff" so before you quote someone make sure your quote is accurate.

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The person I was quoting that you were explicitly responding to explicitly said "more mitigation skills". If you're going to get anal retentive about quoting, at least go back and read the quotes as they're written. The person I was quoting was explicitly wrong about the number of mitigation skills. Even if the number doesn't have much bearing upon performance (and, yes, I know it doesn't; average and burst performance over time are what matter), the person was still explicitly wrong in their statement, and it's also why I described the general difference between the WAR and PLD CD suites while pointing out that they perform equally well over time.

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Originally Posted by Set

And Kitru please point to your post here http://tinyurl.com/l76sdsd so I can completely annihilate your failure to compensate for a ton of things.

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I didn't point to it because it's old, and I haven't bothered updating it in 4 months. If I wanted to show you my math, I would reference these two posts. As to it being purely theoretical and ephemeral, I would like to point out that I've at least provided something other than anecdotal evidence involving laughably unreliable measurement.

Also, I welcome people trying to poke holes in my math. It's always funny because there's yet to be someone who didn't try to do it and just turned out to be even more wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? BB>SE refers to using the relevant combos in that order. Hell, you even use a similar model when you described your method. Being able to copy-paste ability descriptions doesn't really mean anything when you're incapable of actually understanding what's being discussed.

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reading comprehension has nothing to do with interpreting someones points without a full explanation. Granted in this case it is correct I should have assumed this combo.
Also don't try to be a tool and attempt to degrade me or I will simply drive you idiocy into the ground. I am simply trying to prove a point and have a conversation and not try to be a child about it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If you want simple evidence, just do the math for the explicit potency/GCD that WAR and PLD are each capable of. Unless you want to believe that PLD somehow gets more out of each individual point of potency than WAR does, you're doing it wrong. Hell, I seriously doubt that you're actually counting GCDs properly if that's really what you're doing over long periods of time.

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I will do what you failed to and build empirical data instead of screwing with theory craft and completely screwing up everything relative to mechanics. I should have it posted tonight.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The person I was quoting that you were explicitly responding to explicitly said "more mitigation skills". If you're going to get anal retentive about quoting, at least go back and read the quotes as they're written. The person I was quoting was explicitly wrong about the number of mitigation skills. Even if the number doesn't have much bearing upon performance (and, yes, I know it doesn't; average and burst performance over time are what matter), the person was still explicitly wrong in their statement, and it's also why I described the general difference between the WAR and PLD CD suites while pointing out that they perform equally well over time.

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1. I was explicitly responding to you
2. What makes you think I am taking what others said over what I said. 'You specifically said that PLD had "more mitigation skills" which is explicitly wrong as I pointed out' again no I didn't.
3. This is completely irrelevant and pointless if you are simply counting the number of defensive abilities. My point still stands PLD has higher mitigation than WAR which is offset by warrior higher HP and healing to a fairly equal amount.

Back to the OP's question:

The two classes (PLD and WAR) are both in a good place right now.
Either can main tank or off-tank anything in the game.
The differences between them in certain situations in 4man content are extremely slight.

In 8 man content groups almost always prefer to take one of each because they compliment each other REALLY well.
So if you're leveling a tanking class specifically to help your FC raid, then the first thing you should do is find out what other tanks are available to them.

If they have more people playing PLD, then go WAR. Or Vice Versa.
Simple.

Warrior PROs:
-Better Enimity
-Slighty More DPS
- Stun Off GCD
-More Fun to Play
-20% DR every 25sec (Potentially; but doesnt always work that way due to fight mechanics )


Warrior CONs:
-Weaker Mitigation.
- Less ultility.
- No shield
- Higher Skill Cap

PLD PRO's
- Easy to pick up
- Stonger Mitigation
-More ultility ( AoE Blind, Silences, Can Stun Back to back, Cover, Stoneskin).
- Best Defensive Skill in Game. ( Hallow Ground)

Paladin CONs
-Boring to play for most people.
- AoE Threat/DPS isnt as good as WAR
- Lower DPS than Warrior while tanking.


I find I tend to be more successful at END Game Content with PLD, Less to worry about and somethings PLD have are just better. (Hallow Ground for Double Dreadnaught, Back to back Stuns for DreadKnights, Silences, and ofcourse a Shield ). Both are great, just saying from my experience.

Since your only doing this for your FC, I suggest PLD for thier need. If you want to have more fun while tanking, Roll WAR.

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Originally Posted by Set

Ok give numbers, I showed a way to test it.

Every single test pld came out on top with damage.

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Take no offense but you must be doing something really wrong for PLD to out DPS WAR. Theres too many factors that Weight in favor of Warrior.


WAR's have to much DPS boosting Tools in their arsenal for PLD to out dps them. IE:
- Higher Potency Attacks
- Unchained
- Berserk (+50 Attack every 90 Secs)
- Maim ( 20% Damage, can be up 100% of a fight)
- Storm Eye (-10% Slash Resistence, Can be up 100% of the fight)
- Better AoE Damage via Overpower and Steel Cyclone
- Increase Crit In Defiance
- Internal Release (+15% Crit chance, every 60sec)
- Vengeance which does 50 potency counter attack on 2min CD.
-Wrath Abilities unaffected by the -25% damage penatly.



Take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsPp9IQXuc , and watch at 7:00 on. She's Crit for 1500+ Skull Sunder. She's most likely wearing all DPS accessories but still. WAR is capable of pushing amazing DPS for a tank. I myself have seen crits of 1300ish, but that doesnt surprise me when im on war. However, I am suprised if my PLD crits 1k.

empirical data in true testing scenario with parser. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ata-and-parser

TLDR
Warrior does more in the long run
Paladin can do more in the first rotation or 2

The outliers are minimal and the results are fairly accurate.

you are correct on the result not sure on the calculations because you are still missing a lot of things in the calculations you posted and I am going to stop messing with this and go back to playing the game.

Never quite understood why people say samurai should be dps. Samurais have always been tanky jobs, being able to wear heavy armor and weaken enemies. The advantage they had over other tank jobs is higher damage thanks to gil toss. Even historically they are closer to tanks as they drew attention on the battlefield due to their flashy armor and were all about protection of the nobility, very much like a Knight in fact.