Why do sch and smn share point allocation

please make these separate pools, how hard can it be

Well you're only looking at the con, for a pro, you get 2 jobs unlocked for levelling one base class!

Point allocation is done through classes, not jobs, because you don't have a "job" before level 30.

you're assuming that it's a mistake for both to share the same point allocations. I assure you its by design that sch and smn share the same point allocations. I know there are also rumors that there will be more jobs that come from same class that will share point allocations. the game is all about choices. you have to choose one or the other. sometimes you just can't have it every way you would like it.

all about choices, to be gimp playing one job or not

dont really care if its intended its absolutely retarded that I have to spend company seals to play a job efficiency just because of point allocation

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Originally Posted by MathewZilla

all about choices, to be gimp playing one job or not

dont really care if its intended its absolutely retarded that I have to spend company seals to play a job efficiency just because of point allocation

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Go all INT. SCH isn't very "gimped" with full INT since all you're there for is to mitigate damage

Also be glad we have the option to change our stats to change to another "primary" job. With other MMOs, once you choose a class or job, you're locked into it. Permanently. You don't have to choose between SCH and SMN because you can freely switch between them.

If you really care about Minmaxing (like myself) make an entirely separate character. I main SMN on this char while my alt mains SCH

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If you really care about Minmaxing (like myself) make an entirely separate character. I main SMN on this char while my alt mains SCH

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I do this but I also have 2 allagan books on my main I'd like to use without this artificial, pointless restriction

Its not a restriction in any way shape or form. the points are really there just to help you while you level. after hitting 50 most of you gear will determine how good you do. I can dps 99% as effectively with my summoner than i can 100% heal with my scholar.

15 points of MND/ INT is perfectly sufficient you can still be a very very good dps or a very very good healer. Minmaxing is nice but not that important. 30 STR WARs can clear all content up to EX primals and T5, that's an example of how the stat allocation isn't game breaking. Finally maximising your rotation or time of your heals is far far more important than your stat allocation.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Go all INT. SCH isn't very "gimped" with full INT since all you're there for is to mitigate damage

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Just curious, I read many ppl suggesting players focus on both jobs should go all MND, they said the benefit of all INT for SMN or all MND for SCH is not very significant, but go all MND for SCH will has more advantage when Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Just curious, I read many ppl suggesting players focus on both jobs should go all MND, they said the benefit of all INT for SMN or all MND for SCH is not very significant, but go all MND for SCH will has more advantage when Cleric Stance.

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All INT would be the better option because SCH doesn't need 30 MND at all. I know SCHs who do T5 flawlessly with 15 MND 15 VIT or 30 VIT. What's important to a SCH is the MND that comes from gear, Weapon damage, and crit. As long as you mitigate damage, you're golden. SCH isn't a WHM and has a completely different playstyle. Yes having the 30 extra mind is nice and all, but like I said, it's not needed

The issue comes with playing SMN. SMN NEEDS the 30 INT in order to maintain it's famous DPS

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

All INT would be the better option because SCH doesn't need 30 MND at all. I know SCHs who do T5 flawlessly with 15 MND 15 VIT or 30 VIT. What's important to a SCH is the MND that comes from gear, Weapon damage, and crit. As long as you mitigate damage, you're golden. SCH isn't a WHM and has a completely different playstyle. Yes having the 30 extra mind is nice and all, but like I said, it's not needed

The issue comes with playing SMN. SMN NEEDS the 30 INT in order to maintain it's famous DPS

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Also just want to mention, even if one pumps 30 MND to SCH, SCH won't have the same 497-501 MND with i90+AG weapon compared to a WHM. Maybe this also shows that SCH doesn't emphasize on MND as much as WHM.

I'm not surprised that in the future there might be a case where a archer class will need to max STR because the new job is a STR type.

When I was leveling my SMN/SCH (I like them both and can't make up my mind) I gave most of my attribute points to INT, occasionally I spent some of them on MIND and maybe Piety (not really sure though). Is it safe to buy a potion to give to my SMN's INT 30 point? I'm asking because I read different opinions and I'm a bit confused. I don't want to do something which might prevent me to use successfully my SCH in end game content.

I also leveled a WHM, but I doesn't enjoy it as much as I enjoy being a SMN or a SCH.

Anyway, I would never create an alt just to play both classes: it would mean starting from 0 once again and without your friends / FC company friends since you would have also to change server (if you have paid an entry-level subscription).

While leveling ACN up as a first class I really focus on, I've been healing through dungeons as a SCH and DPSing through the story as a SMN in order to avoid gratuitous wait times while playing both jobs. I dump every point into INT, and I've yet to have a dungeon fail because my healing was too weak.

Failure because of,other reasons? Oh sure. When a tank is running on gear lower leveled than mine and/or aggro goes everywhere to the point that I have to burn through my mp pool spamming succor, then things get ugly. Twenty points in Mind won't make your team suddenly competent, however.

Besides, by the time level 50 rolls around, you should know enough about how to play that you should be able to have an easy time leveling up a WHM. Heck, WHM was the first job I unlocked, and it's still healer easy mode when I feel like leveling it to work towards Stoneskin via dungeons. I'm also already swimming in a grand company tickets. Getting ten thousand of them to switch back and forth now and again between optimizations that really only matter on coils? Still not a big deal for me. That'll happen by simple accrual when grinding FATEs.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Also just want to mention, even if one pumps 30 MND to SCH, SCH won't have the same 497-501 MND with i90+AG weapon compared to a WHM. Maybe this also shows that SCH doesn't emphasize on MND as much as WHM.

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I've always been thinking that Crit is actually more important then MND for SCH, but looking at it I'd say Weapon Damage should be a higher priority followed by Crit.

As a poorly made example: Let's say you heal with Aldo for about ~900 but your crit is kinda poor (focusing MND). Then you heal ~800 and crit it (Focusing Crit). That's a 2.4k shield right there ((800 + (800 x .5)) x 2). Controlling the RNG to your favor > High numbers in my opinion

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

I've always been thinking that Crit is actually more important then MND for SCH, but looking at it I'd say Weapon Damage should be a higher priority followed by Crit.

As a poorly made example: Let's say you heal with Aldo for about ~900 but your crit is kinda poor (focusing MND). Then you heal ~800 and crit it (Focusing Crit). That's a 2.4k shield right there ((800 + (800 x .5)) x 2). Controlling the RNG to your favor > High numbers in my opinion

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this might be the dumbest thing i've read all day

again please split point allocation

and big lols at being able to dps effectively on smn with 30 less int than other people who dont play sch, its literally a numbers game and the difference from i55 to i90 body is 15 int so you guys cannot be serious or competent if you're claiming dps is fine without those 30 points into the main stat




Constant Numbers:
Weapon Damage returns approximately 10 HP for every point average.
Mind returns approximately 2 HP for every point average.
Det returns approximately .5 HP for every point average.
Crit returns approximately .3 HP for every point crit-adjusted.
You need around 17 points of Crit for 1% increase in potential crits. That means you may get 5 additional HP healed every 100 heals. Simply put, you're really only going to see a massive benefit from more than 17 points of crit added, but that benefit will decrease for every point of Det. Why? Det > Crit in changing average heals, but Crit > Det for changing POTENTIAL average heals.
In other words, Crit will give you a larger potential heal, but it will not give you a greater average heal over time. It'll maybe move the needle a few points, but it won't be much. In stats lingo, Crit will give you a wider standard deviation, but the median won't change; as Crit presents significant outliers (1.5x multiplier), the median is the appropriate measure of central tendency.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._mnd_for_crit/

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Originally Posted by MathewZilla

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Who knows, maybe SE will change how this works in future. But for now, if you just have to play both jobs, put the 30 points into INT. You can never do too much dps, whereas healers can get away with a lot lower ilvl and still clear everything in the game at the moment. Whether this remains through after 2.2 we'll see.

Every future branching job option will have to make this choice. Arcanist is just the first.

Get used to it

I don't play SCH or SMN really unless I'm just bored of my more geared WHM, but what is the initial point of the two sharing stats? Why did SE choose to go down this route? Just curious.

bumping for continued outrage

They share a stat allocation because bonus stats are based on your class. Jobs are extensions of your class, not replacements for your class.

You're free to disagree with this, but that's the way the system works. Your choices are to favor one job, the other, or split your points accordingly. It may seem a little weird for arcanists, but the upside is that arcanists get an extra job for "free". Other classes will probably get a likewise deal in the future.

Some people will say that the stat allocation doesn't matter, but I strongly disagree. 30 points in a primary stat is an entire i90 chest or leg piece of gear. You don't see people refusing to wear certain piece of armor because "it's a hassle and I can beat it like this anyway". That sort of logic is nonsensical, and so is simply dismissing 30 points of stats in your main role. Still, if you like both jobs, you have to make a sacrifice somewhere. Perhaps try some different dps/healing classes?

They should probably just drop stat allocation entirely. Asides from frustrating arcanist branches what does it really add? I guess black mages want to hit their piety sweet spot where they get one more fire and that's one way to go about it, but generally you pump your main stat because it'd be dumb not to. It's not customization if there's just one option.

This whole point allocation business just feels like a half-assed attempt at customization. You get to "choose" between 3 stats that do exactly nothing for your class (4 if you're a tank), Piety (which does exactly nothing for almost every class, but may have some justifiable applications on healers and casters), Vitality for those extra HP that you barely ever need (unless you're a tank) or your main stat that gives you a decent boost in performing the job you chose to do...
The only instance where the choice really becomes one is when you are forced to decide between Scholar and Summoner. Any way you look at it, one of them gets the shaft and that's quite a shame - I would've loved to play my Summoner, but neither respeccing all the time nor losing 30 points of int seemed very appealing to me, so now I dps on a Black Mage - essentially just removing one job I would have played.

It's really, really stupid and the whole stat allocation system is terrible, but they've repeated many times that this is the way they have intended it to be and they are not planning on changing it. Additionally, when we get more branching jobs for other classes in future patches or expansions, they will have to deal with the same thing.

Because Summoner and Scholars are advanced Arcanists.. That's all. They are not something different they are just using Arcanists different ways. Deal with it.

I just can't believe after this long people STILL post these, "I don't like how the system works so change it" kinda things... it's the design of the game, deal with it or don't be an Arcanist..

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Originally Posted by Hiroradius

I just can't believe after this long people STILL post these, "I don't like how the system works so change it" kinda things... it's the design of the game, deal with it or don't be an Arcanist..

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Why, in a regularly updated game, would you just bend over and accept what you feel are crap design choices? It's not interesting; it's not fun, and I don't care if SE thinks it's good design.

Personally, I would MUCH rather level two jobs than have them share stat allocations, if that's what it takes.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Personally, I would MUCH rather level two jobs than have them share stat allocations, if that's what it takes.

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Agreed.

/10char

10,000 seals is not a huge deal late in the game.. a lot of people are sitting on 50,000 and don't even spend them, i poured them into hymnkeepers books for a while and have 18 in my inventory just in case


just switch once a week instead of 10 times a day..

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

just switch once a week instead of 10 times a day..

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But once a week doesn't really cut it. If you're healing in higher end PvE content say 2 raid days a week and wanna play SMN in between, you'd have at least 4 books per week (2 switches to Scholar for the 2 raid days and switching back to Summoner after). I for one am not willing to farm 40k seals per week just so I can play my Summoner well so I just geared up my Black Mage and never looked at SMN again. Which is a shame, really - it's a fun job to play.

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Originally Posted by ManaKeKz

But once a week doesn't really cut it. If you're healing in higher end PvE content say 2 raid days a week and wanna play SMN in between, you'd have at least 4 books per week (2 switches to Scholar for the 2 raid days and switching back to Summoner after). I for one am not willing to farm 40k seals per week just so I can play my Summoner well so I just geared up my Black Mage and never looked at SMN again. Which is a shame, really - it's a fun job to play.

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You can reassign your stats to 15 Mind and 15 Intelligence. That results in a mere 22 HP per Adloquium reduction on average according to the healing returns calculator here. That shouldn't prevent you from doing endgame content.

I guess it does seem to make you want to choose to do the job or not because if you're going to want to be top in your game, you want every point to benefit you.At the same time, having 30 INT on my SMN and playing SCH I've yet to find a situation where I go "If I only had that 30 MND...if only."

Then again I guess it's more than just SCH and SMN but on the future of other jobs. Take WAR, adding a DPS that requires STR and those people having the same conflict.

In the end there might be two jobs to every class, and no one will want to equip them all. People will have to choose and that will be that. Plus I doubt those who are so outraged? will care if another job comes out they like more than SCH or SMN.

Arcanist is the first to do this so it's going to be put under fire...this will come up again when they do this to other classes...like..bard :)

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Originally Posted by shields977

You can reassign your stats to 15 Mind and 15 Intelligence. That results in a mere 22 HP per Adloquium reduction on average according to the healing returns calculator here. That shouldn't prevent you from doing endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

[...] I've yet to find a situation where I go "If I only had that 30 MND...if only."

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You both make a fair point in that the difference isn't big, but when is it ever in this game? +30 mind are roughly +5% healing, DPS classes scale a bit better so 30 int is roughly 8% more damage. Some games would have you sacrifice 5 talent points to improve healing or damage done by 5%. Especially when pushing highest tier content, neither of those is negligible.

If I were to play both actively I would probably go 30 int, healing generally seems more forgiving than damage and you can make up for lower heals by precasting and keeping the tank topped off. Still, that is a bit besides the point for I am one of those people who always strive for the best performance, so these 30 points matter to me.


Anyhow, I don't wanna turn this into a flame thread. I'm ok with having to chose between Summoner and Scholar, though I do wish there was a better way.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Why, in a regularly updated game, would you just bend over and accept what you feel are crap design choices? It's not interesting; it's not fun, and I don't care if SE thinks it's good design.

Personally, I would MUCH rather level two jobs than have them share stat allocations, if that's what it takes.

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Oh I would have rathered leveled a brand new job myself.. Heck I'd rather have had to make a new character to have a new job, not be everything on my one character.. but that isn't how SE designed their game. So we just deal with it.

I can't wait to see how people react when they start bringing out the 2nd class for each job lol.

Oh no, I can't be a Paladin and Dark Knight because I need those 30 points move from Vit to Str.. no fair no fair.