...I'd like to speculate for a moment about how this will play out. What has been said is that two separate battle systems will exist; classes for soloing on one hand and jobs for partying on the other. Somebody else may have said this already but hear me out:
Solo classes take the PvP role (for the most part) while the job system largely is designated for party and PvE situations.
By grouping soloing and PvP together, balancing classes might not be as much of an issue as everyone can use whatever skills they want. Essentially it's a level playing field and how successful you are depends on how you customize your skills. Think of online FPS where your main gun can be analogized to your class and your attachments and perks are all the other skills and tricks you employ.
On the other side of the equation, by grouping the job system, PvE and partying together, a completely different set of tactics exists which cannot be touched by issues of PvP balancing. Your role is to support the team by doing your job. Your job in raids, dungeons, HNMs etc. (i.e. tank, crowd control, (de)buffer etc.) has nothing to do with your role (and capabilities as a competitive PvPer).
Now I know many of you are thinking at this point that by doing this solo PvE content will suffer or you might be concerned that you wont be able to PvP with jobs and large groups. I agree, this is a conundrum but not entirely impossible to work something out. [SIZE="5"]The main thing I want you to take away from this post is that with two separate battle systems comes room for keeping PvP and PvE separate.[/SIZE] I know many of you have anxious and reluctant sentiments about PvP but but before you decide to give up hope and throw in the towel, please consider that the dev team is a smart group of people. Accept for now that PvP will be a factor and whatever they decide to, they will do it with great consideration to our concerns and the best intentions toward delivering us an enjoyable experience.
Now that we have everyone's opinion on PvP...
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07-03-2011, 07:20 AMAmadasNow that we have everyone's opinion on PvP...
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07-03-2011, 07:35 AMDyne
No on ganking. PVP group vs group would be awesome. One on one = gay. I don't want jumping, but I want dodging, like a sidestep hop.
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07-03-2011, 07:56 AMTezz_Xivectro
Anytime i think of Sidestepping all that comes to mind are fighting games & how cheap it is to use it.
It would be kinda cool if you could partially incapacitate the user. Perhaps it would grey out part of their abilities where they can't use them. -
07-03-2011, 07:58 AMJynx
Never been a fan of PVP, I do hope they keep the systems and balance seperate. I don't want to see "_____ skill was nerfed for PVP reasons!, and it now effects your PVE experience."
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07-03-2011, 08:04 AMXatsh
I agree with Jynx as soon as something comes up "X ability/spell was modified to balance PvP" the devs are doing something wrong. PvE should never be effected for PvP sake.
I think the best things SE could do would be create 2 separate rules, a PvE set and a PvP set... only way to make it where PvP does not effect PvE and Vise Vera. -
07-03-2011, 08:07 AMPetori
I don't like PvP MMOs. If anything make PvP instanced. As long as it doesn't affect me, go for it.
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07-03-2011, 08:11 AMSAMINUS
If I wanted single PvP, I would play Tekken with a friend. Last thing I want is to have someone run up and gank me while I am in town crafting.
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07-03-2011, 08:14 AMMadisonlee
Again like I've said a bunch of times now, 2 separate effect modes is a perfect solution; just a matter of SE deciding if they want to dedicate time to do it. (IE each spell/ability has one effect in PVP and another in PVE, so that PVP balance would never possibly affect PVE, because spell modifications for PVP would only change the PVP effect of the spell.) For instance CC lasting a shorter duration when used in PVP, or a spell being less damaging in PVP than PVE.
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07-03-2011, 08:18 AMChezenWhat do you recommend when someone starts complaining about a skill in particuliar and wants it taken out/put in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonlee
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07-03-2011, 08:18 AMMadisonleeQuote:
Originally Posted by SAMINUS
Responses like this are starting to get annoying. Please learn what PVP is and stop equating PVP with open world PK gank fest. PVP = "PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER." That can mean Ballista type games, Battle grounds, duels, mini games like choco racing, anything that involves 1 player versus another player or a group of players versus another group.
Yoshi P said open world PK is NOT a possibility, nor would SE ever force that upon their player base. So please stop with these ridiculous posts like "omg NO PVP I DON'T WANNA BE GANKED WHEN I'M DOING LEVE/CRAFTING/AFK!!" whathaveyou. -
07-03-2011, 08:20 AMWynnI would assume since there would be two rule sets in that poster's example, they would change the PvP set, if found to be necessary, and leave the PvE set be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chezen
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07-03-2011, 08:23 AMMadisonleeI'm not sure what you're asking. If you mean wants a skill removed altogether from the game? If so, perhaps let's say that PVE'ers are sick of the OPness of Punishing Barbs (just an example, not saying it's OP). Then SE could either 1: Nerf punishing barb's effect against NPCs (PVE), or simply make Punishing Barbs non-executable against PVE content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chezen
Same could be done for PVP. If PVP'ers want Punishing Barbs removed or nerfed, nerf it for PVP use only or make it non-executable against players. -
07-03-2011, 08:24 AMPrettyPrincessPeople are just typical like that. Can't be helped unfortunately =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonlee
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07-03-2011, 08:31 AMSAMINUS
I think the collesium(sp) would be a great place for PvP.
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07-03-2011, 08:35 AMVerecund
Oh my god... OP's sig... could it be....... the return of....
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07-03-2011, 08:36 AMLoki
They have to change / add lots of things before thinking about PVP don't you think?
Anyway i don't like PVP but they can add some "arena" PVP / ballista type for those who want some i don't care if it doesn't change the rest of the game.
On ff11 there was some "friendly pvp" and it was the same battle system which was used than the one in pve so it shouldn't be hard to do it again in ff14 isn't it? -
07-03-2011, 08:37 AMDranio
Sounds similiar to the way Guild Wars does it. Basically, in PvE areas your skills are balanced for PvE. When you enter a PvP related area (such as a guild hall for example) the skill switch to the PvP versions automatically, seperately balanced. I always liked that way of balancing skills for PvE and PvP best.
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07-03-2011, 08:40 AMSAMINUS
Ya I think PvP in any fashion would be a ways off due to what needs to be done now. I am not against PvP that is controlled, I am actually very much for it. Hence why I like the collesium(sp) idea. Hell the collesium could be great as even just solo battles against mobs for big rewards, small groups too. They have it all set up already (the place I mean in Uldah). They just have to implement the mechanics, could be great.
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07-03-2011, 09:04 AMAmadasThis or having class skills exclusive to classes and job skills exclusive to jobs. One adapts to PvP, one doesn't. (example: if you're a gladiator your rampart gives you X defense boost, if you're a paladin it gives you Y defense boost.) Or just make it so that jobs simply can't use certain class skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonlee
This is how I imagine it except switching between areas in this case = switching between class and job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranio
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07-03-2011, 09:25 AMChezenI meant along with nerfing and buffing, (some) PvPers demand certain skills and/or removal of skills. Over time, such demands leads to the classes being almost all alike. FFXIV's a little different yes, but we won't know until the battle changes how that might play out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonlee
You rarely see PvE players complain about skills directly. If it's not that useful, they simply don't use it. If there's another skill they could use, most will just compensate with what they have; they may or may not give suggestions in the forum. If the class is UP, they might complain about the class, or just say the game is too hard. If it's OP, few people will complain about that, as it benefits them and/or their party anyway.
Rift tried having a seperate soul for PvPers and said they wouldn't make ajustments for the sake of PvP. It didn't happen.
So, I'm just honestly asking, how would you keep them completely separate and not affecting each other?
Not that this post matters. SE will do what they think they need to do to make this game a success. I said before, there will always be things you do or do not like in an mmo. It's up to the individual to decide if the pros are enough in his or her own case. -
07-03-2011, 09:39 AMCendres
Just would like to state that I don't play Final Fantasy for the PvP. To me this is purely a cooperative PvE experience and IF there should be some PvP I hope it's restricted to battle arenas and the like. I understand the appeal but it's not something I look forwards to in this game. Lots of others have it in my view.
As long as it's a side thing and it doesn't affect classes then sure I guess. -
07-03-2011, 09:41 AMDranioIn terms of nerfing/removing skills, SE needs to actually balance the skills, and seperately for PvE and PvP. Not listen to all the whiners screaming for everything, but do it themselves and not rush it through and screw it up worse then normal. Though the idea of the OP's is on the right track IMO, I think it should be in terms of the skills, not class for PvP and job for PvE. A good start with seperate balancing, but a I believe a wrong turn in how the skill set to use is chosen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chezen
Honestly, it can be done. I am of the opinion that Guild wars did this the right way. There are simply 2 versions of skill, some being the same for PvE and PvP, some that are somewhat different for PvE and PvP, and others that are a lot different in how they work/damage/ect. for PvE and PvP.
It may be a B2P game, but it did many things right. Seperate balancing for PvE and PvP being one of them.
Note: this is my opinion and not to be taken as absolute fact. -
07-03-2011, 09:46 AMDranioI was under the impression that this is how they planned to implement PvP anyway. A battle arena, PvP games and such like that is they way I prefer PvP to be and I'm pretty sure SE already noted that that's the kind of way it'll be implemented, so I doubt you have anything to worry about. If XI is any example, I expecting nothing more then something like Ballista and/or Brenner ( don't know how close the two are game wise, I've only participated in Brenner, and that was a for fun ls PvP thing, we didn't actually play the game itself.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cendres
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07-03-2011, 02:05 PMBalbanesThere is a simple solution to this. Skills can be made to work differently in PvP than PvE. There, no more nerfing PvE issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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07-03-2011, 03:47 PMAmadasWhat you say is certainly a big possibility and a viable plan, but hear me out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranio
As a PvE fan, the question in my mind is will PvE be mainly geared toward solo play(class combos) or party(jobs)? Both would be ideal, but how is SE going to have the time to make a group PvP system, a solo PvP system, a solo PvE system and a group PvP? Way more time and money than just determining which style would be the easiest to gear toward PvP?
my opinon: jobs/party play should get the most PvE because of instances, HNMs, storyline battles etc. Teamwork in PvE is more important than teamwork in PvP is basically what I'm saying
Therefore solo classes should be designated as the PvP style which may or may not be affected by PvE, because skills can be altered freely without affecting job and partying skills. Everyone who plays solo can basically be a one man party as it is and it's fair because everyone has access to the same skills.
I'm not saying PvPers can't party up; but it's way harder to organize a group plan the way classes are right now, and easier to just do your own thing to whoop some ass.
How would this effect PvE while playing solo? No idea.
since one balancing act already exists (classes vs. jobs, party vs. solo) why not keep the two scenes separate in terms of PvP. two birds with one stone. No balancing jobs for PvP, no balancing classes for PvE (or maybe a little for the latter)?it's simple and effective. do leve quests and behest solo, then kill people when you get bored/run out. To each its own skill set, no complications.
note: A lot of this opinion is based on the assumption that PvP will play a big role in end game which is based on my interpretation of Yoshi's words regarding end game content:
Quote:
Along with PvP, we are also envisioning a large-scale PvE, but since we are not really at the stage where we can release information, I’d appreciate it if you just take this as "They're gonna do it!!" for now.
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07-03-2011, 08:47 PMDyne
Well, back in ffxi's ballista, it was nation vs nation scheduled to occur every hour in 3 places. You can join whatever country has the lower amount of participants to balance it out, and each group have their own linkshell just for pvp to communicate strategy and enemy position, etc... Personal linkshells are automatically removed at start of the battle. Non-participants and surrounding mobs cannot touch the players in any way. People can form a party and alliance, so even if you are not one of the bad ass killers, you can still play other roles that are equally or more useful, such as party healer, enfeebler, scout/bait, or petra farmer. People sit/heal to farm petra, which is deposited into receptacles to score points. People can also gain petra by killing players holding petras. Opposing team guards the receptacles to prevent people from scoring. The group that scores the most points win, also person with the highest contribution or highest kills get recognition.
The terrain, trees, rocks, and hills all play a crucial role in the strategy, as well as learning to use buffs, and sneak + invisible. One on one with a friend can be done in a secluded area, but it is not ideal, as it doesn't contribute to your group winning, and it is not guaranteed that someone else will not jump in.
Here is an example of a scenario, a scout sneaks in closer to your base, fires a cheap shot then runs away, and several of your members chase him. Once he gets to a corner, he stops, and invisible black mages pop out casts sleepga on the entire group. Then a red mage will paralyze, bind, blind, silence, gravity you, while the black mage starts casting thundaga III. At this point, you are horrified because your entire group is going to be slaughtered and any survivors can be picked off by the scout. Thundaga III goes off, and everyone has really low hp, but a white mage survives and immediately 2 hour ability Benediction, and suddenly you guys are back in the game. That is what is called an epic battle, which a lot of NA players missed out on by being a chicken when it came to pvp.
One thing I'd like them to add though that was missing in ffxi, would be the ability to build things like guard towers, walls, summon monsters, turn into dragons, seige weapons, and a castle that you have to protect. These things even DoH and DoL can do to participate in pvp. -
07-03-2011, 09:38 PMEugenics
I would love to see pvp in this game. But i don't think anyone in the FFXIV team has the balls to implement it. Most people on these forums would rather fight automainted mobs that can't think or surprise you in a fight.
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07-03-2011, 10:10 PMFelisI like this idea. This would be like War of Emperium in Ragnarok Online, where a few Skills have on siege ground not the same effects as in the rest of the world (like magic spell damage decrease to 50%) or are complete deactivated (like Ice Wall not castable on siege ground). With this, SE can balance the PvP without to change the PvE gameplay, because the PvP would have own rules in a specific area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madisonlee
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07-03-2011, 10:22 PMTezz_Xivectro
Too many MMO's try to use PvP as the selling point. As long as FF14 doesn't get to the point where you need to PvP to be the best at PvE then we should be fine.
Too many people are pushing for PvP, but SE really should add more mini-games over PvP, imo. -
07-03-2011, 10:35 PMAnima
Simple solution: Give Modes for PvE and PvP like most person said. I don't think it's ZOMG HARD to do, and it seems a lot of people are getting the complete opposite Idea of what most people think, like someone who said OMG I'm gonna get PKed while crafting in town! rofl
PvE:Gladiator[PvE Mode]>>Party Paladin[PvE Mode]
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PvP:Gladiator[PvP Mode]>>Party Paladin[PvP Mode]
PvP Skills won't=PvE Skills Effect-wise.
I.E Sleep lasts 30 seconds in PvE. In PvP Sleep lasts 5 seconds.
A PvP Skill is too strong and people wants it to be nerfed, fine. They can just change the PvP Skill Effects and not the PvE one.
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If you make the Solo Mode be the PvP, Solo PvE'ers will suffer. So this is most likely the most effective we have now.
Yoshi already said "THERE WILL BE NO PK" therefore people don't have to worry about PK.
It would be cool even If PvP takes on a closed area/Instance.
XI did it, what it lacks is on the reward, so why can't they put it here?
I don't/am not expecting PvP to get the spotlight, I do believe it will take a lot of time, but starting early is nicer right?
PvP can be "VERY" fun and epic if they are done correctly(like what Dyne said)
Plus, It's fighting against humans so it's; Brain VS Brain.
I'm sure SE knows that PvE is a really important aspect for FF, but I'm sure they also consider PvP is one of the little aspect of MMO, and I believe they have what it takes to make a PvP that doesn't affect PvE the slightest bit.
Sorry If this made some people tick :P
Thanks for reading. -
07-04-2011, 01:51 AMweeble
just to mention though i love how everyone wants separate for pvp, but when i say they should have separate servers for different types of pve game styles it is ludicrous. just wanted to point that out, didn't mean to go off course with the op's thread.
but i do like the idea he brings up, though i don't think people will like having to level many classes to be kick ass in pvp, they will always be complaining. what gw2 is doing is not even making it level or gear in there pvp, u can go at level 1 or max and it will put everyone at same level to play, and gear gets dumb down to everyone wearing the same thing. this is probably best way to keep everyone from crying. though i rather it take time to gear up and time for spell and moves to be gained for it completely separate from pve of course.
also i think that ffxiv neeeeeeeds to add there own version of a scenario, doesn't have to be pvp, it can be all pve. dont' matter what it is but they need to give us something that where a click of a button you can join it. there are many times of the day where u have 20-30mins and want to do something fun and adding a jumpin in join button to something that lasts 20mins would be perfect for it. ballista would of never died out if it had a simple join button to it. -
07-04-2011, 02:29 AMAndrien
Arena and Colosseum just doesn't cut it, because it is to small. We need the vast open area where you strategize tactics, especially for large scale pve and pvp.
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07-04-2011, 02:45 AMSpeeral
Personally i think gear and levels should be brought into account. This it motivates people to get items and spend time fine tuning their set ups. This way it adds a reason to progress and push players to their limits and the use of strategy and tactics to avoid fight you cannot win. I am ok with instanced and sanctioned pvp in arena and is another avenue for a player to progress horizontally between rank cap increases.
It makes sense and i know from reading posts from devs and yoshi pk won't be happening in the open world. So if these compitions are brought into the game i am looking forward to what they come up with for the future. -
07-04-2011, 02:58 AMAnima
How about Giving Gears that can only be used in PvP Area as a Reward?[Items obtained from PvP reward can only be used in PvP Area?]
Maybe they could make an instance/small realm that consists of a Lobby(where people could chat with ease)[With Retainer Bells, Record Board, Shops, Sign up NPC, etc], a Place where people can watch the Battle(If there's no one fighting, NPC would appear fighting Instead), An Outer Garden/w.e[should be quite big] where friends could spar with each other, Some Gates that is used for people to Teleport(Basically Instanced Area) into the Battle Stage, where they have to prepare inside the Base Camp and wait for 3 Min until the Battle Begins. Maybe some XI PvP type(I never played XI, I only know so much about it)
EDIT: The PvP could be divided into groups like Duel and Team Battle[Tournament and Round Robin system like Dissidia's] and The Zone could be divided into 3: Small Area, Medium, and Big Area.(To add some Variations)