Holmgang useless?

I only use it when i take giants in behemoth to not let them run loose but apart from there it just takes an extra place in my skill list :P i thought it could prove useful in caduceus split but guess what, all end-game bosses are immune to hold what a surprise... if you've found any other use of that "skill" please share :D

for the most part, you can't die while using holmgang. it buys you 6 seconds for healers to heal you.

ie, about to eat a big hit at dangerously low health? holmgang that and block with yo face like a boss.

http://movieclips.com/BPUN-excalibur...-final-battle/

Holmgang starts @2:27

I've survived 6 stack Ifrit EX thanks to Holmgang and a quick Bene. Just make a macro that says something like "<se.1><se.2><se.3> BENEDICTION PLS <se.4> <se.5> <se.6>" and it'll actually have some use for those near-death situations. Also, as always, it's useful against the 2nd boss of WP when he's gunning for someone.

Unfortunately, it's no Hallowed Ground... but it still has its useful places.

Iffit EX only goes up to 5 stack same as Titan EX ;P

on the topic, ya it save me butt a few time, esp in iffit and titan EX, and Twin DS. just have to time it right.

Sorry, yeah, 5. I couldn't remember how high it went since I usually only see 3 or (rarely) 4. :P

Useful, but still lacking.

Poped Holm and stood still for the 6 seconds for a DPS to get a LB level 2 off to kill a cad in turn 1 that was at 7 stacks for the win. It def has its uses.

Not a warrior, but my raid's warrior was able to do 8 stacks in T2, only to be outshone by our PLD that did 10 stacks for T2 too :p

Although it's not prefect but it's still very useful in a "oh shit" time.

Its useful for turn 4 when things go to hell and oh do they... go to hell. Especially when your off tanking phase 5-6 transition when all those adds drop and the healers can't give you their attention.

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Originally Posted by cearka

for the most part, you can't die while using holmgang. it buys you 6 seconds for healers to heal you.

ie, about to eat a big hit at dangerously low health? holmgang that and block with yo face like a boss.

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Cad can kill you nevertheless. I think twintania ravages you too, I might test someday to confirm. In a général manner, pretty everyboss that doesn't care about the root can kill you through your "invincibilty".

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Originally Posted by Maku

Poped Holm and stood still for the 6 seconds for a DPS to get a LB level 2 off to kill a cad in turn 1 that was at 7 stacks for the win. It def has its uses.

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Same as above ^^ You just had awesome healers (btw, my Static just ravaged cad through enrage way as due to a derp, the split happened at 3 statck and the healers had too much to do to let me live. Our paladin kitted it until the last 30%, then poped hallowed ground and we ravaged it like hell, with WHM spamming stoneskin and scholar spamming adlo :D

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Not a warrior, but my raid's warrior was able to do 8 stacks in T2, only to be outshone by our PLD that did 10 stacks for T2 too :p

Although it's not prefect but it's still very useful in a "oh shit" time.

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T2 can go to 8 stacks max. Also, unless you eat the fire star from the 3rd node (or maybe the pacman, never took this way), every iL80+ tank can survive at 8 stack. even with only 2 healers.

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Originally Posted by Cessna

Its useful for turn 4 when things go to hell and oh do they... go to hell. Especially when your off tanking phase 5-6 transition when all those adds drop and the healers can't give you their attention.

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Actually this. The only situation I use holmgang out of WP 2nd boss is in T4 phase 6, because we use the "burn dread" method. I have 2 sets of soldier/knight wanting to burn me down, so I begin with all my CD (vengeance, then bloodbath+foresight+conval), and after it I pop holmgang on an untouched soldier the time for my healers to get me up. By the time, the rook is dead, the bugs fed and at least one set is dead as well. The rest is easy part :p

Holmgang prevent you from dying by that one moment, it is extreme usefull, but usually it is hard to use since most of healer doesnt realize the WAR is using holmgang or PLD using HG

I heard Holmgang prevents knockback(like Tempered Will) on Landslides and Upheaval in Titan.

I pop Tempered Will as PLD each time it's up during Tank Swops on Titan, just in case its during a 3-Way Landslide.

Pretty sure the stacks in turn 2 stop at 8

I think a cool kick to it would be: all damage dealt to you that would of dropped you below 1 hp is stored and granted as a heal when Holmgang ends

So if you pop it and you took at 6k hit with only 2k health left. It drops you to 1hp. When Holmgang ends it would heal you for 4k hp.

Basically bringing it more on par with Hallowed but in a different way requiring more strategy to use.

I've used Holmgang well on Ultima HM. Right at the end, other tank dies and I have still 3 stacks...get a fourth...and then a fifth (he's still dead; everyone is just DPSing). Holmganged just before the fifth and survive those 15K bursts for 6 seconds, then Ultima starts to turn to the DPS, but dies just after I do.

Then there's the times against Behemoth, or Titan, or any other boss, where you just aren't getting heals (dead heals or derpy DPS or something) and need it to survive.

And if anyone still runs WP...use it on the slime boss to hold it in place and save the poor healer from Flail.

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Originally Posted by LordSaviour

I heard Holmgang prevents knockback(like Tempered Will) on Landslides and Upheaval in Titan.

I pop Tempered Will as PLD each time it's up during Tank Swops on Titan, just in case its during a 3-Way Landslide.

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Nope. You're screwed like hell.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

Pretty sure the stacks in turn 2 stop at 8

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exact, 8 stacks is the max. And it's a good thing because even the nodes begin to hit like trucks when you get at 8 stacks.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Nope. You're screwed like hell.

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At the start of 2.1 there was a bug where holmgang wasn't preventing knock backs from things like landslide, but it has since been fixed. I've used holmgang while tanking titan's gaolers to prevent the knock back. It's by no means ideal since the 6 second window is on the short side and the fact that you can't move while it's on means you can effectively lock yourself in place so you can't avoid the slides if you use it too early, but it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Nope. You're screwed like hell.

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I'm 99.999% sure that bug was fixed in 2.15 or one of the other smaller patches since 2.1

Meh, it has its uses, as said above. Only thing I would like is that if it doesn't bind the mob, you could still walk as well. I try to hold it, it still runs, and I am left standing there. Even had it once that the 1st mob ran of during holmgang, the 2nd one aoe's around me. Holmgang goes of, aoe goes of and since I couldn't move I am dead. Enemy not bound? Neither the war, imo.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

At the start of 2.1 there was a bug where holmgang wasn't preventing knock backs from things like landslide, but it has since been fixed. I've used holmgang while tanking titan's gaolers to prevent the knock back. It's by no means ideal since the 6 second window is on the short side and the fact that you can't move while it's on means you can effectively lock yourself in place so you can't avoid the slides if you use it too early, but it can be done.

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Holmgang does prevent KB but it does it a helluva lot less effectively than Tempered Will. TW lasts longer, doesn't bind the user (so they can dodge all of the other stuff that the Titan throws alongside LSs), doesn't require a target to be nearby, and doesn't consume the user's uber-survivability CD in the process. As I've been saying since 2.1 release, Holmgang tries to do too much which makes it do none of those things well:

• Because it a binds the target, it can't have the duration that would make it useful for survival and physics immunity. Furthermore, it has to have limited range which means that the pull is basically worthless and, as a tank CD, it is more situational because something *has* to be right in your face.
• Because it's an uber-survivability ability, it can't have a CD that makes the bind/pull anything beyond a gimmick.
• Because it binds *you*, the survival and physics benefits are reduced because you're forced to eat whatever it is that's thrown at you for the next 7-8 seconds or so (if you get a red zone/plume thrown at the end, you're not going to be able to run out of it in time).

Holmgang really should be split into 3 separate abilities: a bind/pull (that binds you), an uber-survivability CD, and a physics immunity CD (you could split it into 2, but that would compromising the usefulness of one of the factors). A separate bind/pull would actually allow you to put it on a CD that makes those effects useful (45-60 secs) and only get yourself bound for the effect that actually requires you be bound for balance purposes; as separate uber-survivability tank CD would let you give it a duration that makes it have an appreciable effect (10 secs); a separate physics immunity CD would allow you to be immune to physics without getting stuck in one spot the entire time.

Adding 2 abilities to the class is probably a bit too much, so I'd be happy if they put the physics immunity on Unchained (keep the physics limited to a 10 sec duration; the 2 min CD is balanced by the Wrath requirement). Holmgang itself could stay as the bind/pull (since it's got the perfect animation for it in the first place). All that leaves is adding one extra ability (probably at level 50) for the uber-survivability (ACN already provides 18 instead of the standard 17 because it gets 2 abilities at 4 instead of only 1).

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I'm 99.999% sure that bug was fixed in 2.15 or one of the other smaller patches since 2.1

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It was. I confirmed myself to be sure when they reported the fix. What people might be confused about is Titan EX's upheaval. This knock backs everyone regardless of CD used, including manawall/hallowed ground/tempered will, which all work on landslide. I believe it was designed this way because it is used as the enrage to knock everyone off at the end.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Cad can kill you nevertheless. I think twintania ravages you too, I might test someday to confirm. In a général manner, pretty everyboss that doesn't care about the root can kill you through your "invincibilty".

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??? This isn't true at all. Holmgang works on all mechanics Hallowed Ground works on. I've personally used it on all bosses in Coil at one point or another. Not sure what you are talking about. Holmgang is useful if you are going to die otherwise. If you aren't using Holmgang before you die, you are doing it wrong. Whether it roots a boss is irrelevant. I do wish they'd take out the self root for anything unable to be rooted though. Obviously keep the no knockback portion of it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

stuff

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I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

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In 2.0, it made sense. The idea was that you were using your axe to bind yourself to the target, such that neither of you could move or get pushed around because you were anchored to the other. It was still borked and a little overloaded (target bind and physics immunity) but viable because you were bound even if the target wasn't, but that's something that's probably programmatically annoying to implement.

The problem was that, in 2.1, they tried to add too much to it: they added a pull and the uber-survivability to an ability that was already effect heavy, which simply exacerbated what was already a highly problematic ability. Their fix for Holmgang (making it not a generally worthless ability) just blew up in their face.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

I completely agree that holmgang is a terribly designed skill. It tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well. Honestly the skill itself doesn't really fit well in the game. I think whoever thought it up is too attached to it to realize that, though.

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Basically this. Tries to do to many things and isn't good at any of them.

I wish they'd just take all heals received during Holmgang and apply it as the effect wears off. Most of us Warrior's called out its problems upon seeing it in the 2.1 patch notes, and it has played out just as we thought. At least having the heal effect tack on at the end would make it a bit stronger as a CD, without breaking it (Hallowed ground would still be stronger).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The problem was that, in 2.1, they tried to add too much to it: they added a pull and the uber-survivability to an ability that was already effect heavy, which simply exacerbated what was already a highly problematic ability. Their fix for Holmgang (making it not a generally worthless ability) just blew up in their face.

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I do wish they'd split it up, because I agree with your assessment of the problem and proposed fix. Even if its just *can't lower hp below 1* on one CD, and the *Root/Chain effect on both target/user* effect on the other. Inability to move out of the next attack after successfully surviving the CD just defeats the purpose.

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Originally Posted by Traek

Video proof please. Holmgang works on Cad, unless they broke it recently.

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Sadly the turn is done and my computer can't run a video recorder at the same time as I play. Though holmagang never worked for me in T1. Perfectly fine on everything else, but not T1. I know I was late on the reaction a couple of time, but that doesn't explain all my death. But I may try it with 2.2 when it becomes free access and free farm to see if it was just heavy lag issues (ie skill launching on screen but never recorded in server) or if it's really broken on cad

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Not a warrior, but my raid's warrior was able to do 8 stacks in T2, only to be outshone by our PLD that did 10 stacks for T2 too :p

Although it's not prefect but it's still very useful in a "oh shit" time.

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It only stacks to 8

Did a titan XM run where I accidentally used Holmgang (because I was too quick on switching crossbar), got bind and ate fully stacked plume... Survived the hit of course but the Stomps killed me afterwards...
PLD hitting HG by accident wouldn't have that issue.


but yeah, Holmgang is pretty terrible even if I was pretty excited about it when I read the patch notes. I totally agree that it tries to do too much things but also:
- the start-up is waaaaaay to long to be effectively used on reaction... So many times, I tried to use it seeing I was in critical condition but the 1 sec start-up is plenty of time to die even though you'll still see the binding effect on the mob...
- Duration is ridiculous too... Since you have that star-up delay, you really only have 5 sec to get a benediction so the healer needs to be really quick to react and cast.

Without changing too much the design, I'd be ok with the still if we remove the start-up time and it really become instant either extend the duration to 10s at least.
And maybe as a bonus, increase IB healing to the original 300% so that we could have a chance to help in the recovery from 1hp...

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Originally Posted by Traek

It was. I confirmed myself to be sure when they reported the fix. What people might be confused about is Titan EX's upheaval. This knock backs everyone regardless of CD used, including manawall/hallowed ground/tempered will, which all work on landslide. I believe it was designed this way because it is used as the enrage to knock everyone off at the end

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are you sure about that ? last week I pop temple will on upheaval by accident miss click and I did not get knock back

http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-con...Trap-funny.jpg

Thats pretty much sums up my thoughts of Holmgang. Its a gamble. There's a chance it might save your life, but more often than not it ends up hurting you more than it helps.


Sure your healer has 6sec to save you, but during those 6sec, you are forced to eat all damage that comes your way.

Holmgang needs alot of work before it can become a useful tool in Warriors Arsenal. There are so many things wrong with this skill that SE needs to do a complete revamp.

Holmgang is a last resort. Because of its short Duration and Self Bind, 8/10 times its only delays the inivitable. I can count on 1 hand how many times Holmgang saved me since 2.1. They tired giving warrior something to compete with PLD Hallow Ground and failed miserably. Honestly, It wouldnt be so bad if they just removed the self bind and made the duration 10secs, I glady take an increase CD with that change . SE if your reading this, please do something with this skill

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Snippety snip.

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I used Holmgang at the end of Turn 1 last night as I got hit by an unfortunate crit, at five Stacks, so hit the panic button. Cad's next auto attack took me to 1HP and unless this was a very fortunate coincidence, I feel confident that it does work.

Having a macro to let the Healers know you've used it , as mentioned previously, is good, as one quick Benediction from our White Mage and I was back on track to continue tanking.

It's a great skill, both for the invuln and binding effects.

Even on heavy trash pulls it has a place, but requires foresight of you/your healer's output vs incoming damage, IE if you're being healed, yet steadily going down, save Holmgang for 2-3 seconds before you bottom out, and during the effect time, healer can put up HoTs/shields, then Lustrate/Benediction back to full as it ends.

I like the idea of absorbing heals to be applied once the skill ends, but who knows if it's scheduled for change, if at all.

I think Holmgang should be about 10 sec IF you're still below 1000HP after 6 sec but you'll be able to move(and the target)
Cause clearly it CAN be useful but you have eat everything in your face during that time.Not necessary gonna save you.Sure sometimes it would but it's clearly a panic button,can't really be used for strategic situation.

It's a bit of an awkward skill, but has its uses. I use it primarily for big hits that I know will kill me, like eating a double wicked wheel when the healers are a little behind on heals.

I know for a fact holmgang works on T1.. I always use it for shits and giggles when there's a wipe.. sit there taking hits to the face at 1hp for 6 seconds til your dead

How about: Holmgang stores all incoming healing within the 6 seconds duration. HP cannot be reduced below 1. All healing are applied when the effect ends.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

are you sure about that ? last week I pop temple will on upheaval by accident miss click and I did not get knock back

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I was positive it did. I think there is a few FC people who need Titan EX win. I will try on both PLD/WAR to confirm on all CDs, and ask the BLM to manawall if I can't get in BLM for that confirmation as well.