During tornado phase, if we go dps Suparna we have to watch out for Wicked Wheel which has no warning, it hits 360 degrees and can one-shot my monk with 4300 hp. I keep an eye on Friction being cast by Suparna then I move away from her but there is barely any room between the tornadoes to dodge it.
If we kill Chirada first, like most groups like to do, the OT might take too long to peel Suparna off the MT due to using Provoke on Spiny, we run out of time and Garuda wipes the raid with Aerial Blast for 25k dmg. My choices are to wait and hope the OT pulls Suparna south in time or go where the MT has Garuda/Suparna and hope I can dodge TWO Wicked Wheels which has yet to work for me.
If we pull Suparna south first, we still need to deal with Wicked Wheel in a tight space but at least it's only one. What's the point of bringing melees to this fight at all?
It's to the point that parties are only bringing ranged dps to the fight.
Wicked Wheel on Garuda EX
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02-27-2014, 12:32 AMOcelotSnakeWicked Wheel on Garuda EX
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02-27-2014, 12:45 AMLemon8or
Wicked Wheel is triggered about 5 seconds after Garuda's Slipstream or about 25-30 seconds after Garuda spawns adds. Make a macro to time it and you'll know when to move away. You can run between tornadoes or through them if they're not raging. There's a pulse that you can hear very easily. The OT should pull Chirada and provoke Spiny right at the spawn if he doesn't have aggro. You kill Chirada first then MT and OT switches Suparna and Spiny at 2 stacks. Easily done but some OT doesn't know how to. When Chirada is dead, Suparna can't do WW anymore so melees are completely safe 100% of the time.
What's the point? Because melees do tons of DPS. Just because you haven't figured out how to maximize your DPS doesn't mean others haven't. If the parties are only bringing ranged dps to the fight, they do not know the fight as well as they think they do. -
02-27-2014, 12:45 AMJetBrooks
Before tornadoes, Garuda/Suparna use WW after Friction. During tornadoes, Garuda/Suparna use WW after Slipstream. Ask your OT to hold Suparna in a place where you have room to dodge the mechanic.
If you kill Chirada first, Suparna should no longer be able to use WW, and you can jump over to the MT if OT doesn't pull quickly enough. You'll still have to be careful to not get hit, and you should Focus Target Garuda to watch out for her WW until Suparna is dead. It's beneficial to a party with melee if the ranged DPS focus on Suparna first, since it minimizes the time you have to spend dodging mechanics, and wasting your DPS uptime in doing so. If the RDPS are able to kill Suparna first, this means you will have to deal with ZERO WW during tornadoes, which is obviously optimal.
You can also try the triangle strategy, in which DPS pull Chirada, OT pulls Suparna, and MT pulls Garuda. Assuming you use the standard NW/SE pull strategy, this will change a bit. DPS will pull Chirada NW, OT pulls Suparna SE (this puts the sisters as far away from each other as possible), and the tank pulls Gaurda NE. Healers can stay SW as usual. If the DPS tanking Chirada dodges her slipstream attack, she should be hitting like a wet noodle, and you'll be able to take her and Suparna out without dealing with WW. This works especially nicely if you have multiple melee.
There are also other great strategies for using all ranged DPS. It's almost annoying that this fight is so versatile, because you have to explain which strategy you want to run any time you're in a Party Finder or Duty Finder party. -
02-27-2014, 12:53 AMJetBrooksEh, I don't really agree. Party balance preferences are influenced by peoples' personal experience. I personally know how to run a melee in Garuda EX, but often do not have the patience to watch another guy learn how to do it, because on multiple occasions the melee simply was unable to learn. I usually run all ranged DPS just because the fight is easier for the average ranged DPS player than the average melee DPS player. In a public party, I'm not seeking to optimally complete a fight that I've already beaten 80 times, I just want to get it done and out of the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
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02-27-2014, 01:11 AMLemon8orWhich is exactly my point. The party, which includes the melee DPS and the OT which has more responsibility than other people think (lololol I just pull Chirada and sit there), does not know the fight well to adjust. I make FC groups for this all the time and we bring different DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBrooks
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02-27-2014, 01:22 AMVodomirIn this case you might want to adjust your strategy. Your OT should pull Chirada and immediately provoke Spiny after the adds spawn during the tornado phase. Your DPS then kills Chirada first and by the time she's dead your OT's provoke should be ready again, so he can pull Suparna over to his corner, while the MT provokes Spiny as soon as your OT has two stacks. Suparna stops doing WW once Chirada is dead so your melees don't have to deal with any WW at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by OcelotSnake
It's more because those parties lack a proper understanding of the encounters mechanics and how do deal with them. They know of only one way to finish this fight and are not able to adopt their strat to their party makeup, that's why they always choose to adopt their party makeup to their strat.Quote:
Originally Posted by OcelotSnake
There is nothing to actually learn for a melee DPS if you opt for the right strat. Look at your party makeup and choose a strat that works for your setup and not the other way round.Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBrooks
What exactly is supposed to be hard to learn for a melee if all he has to do is to stay with the OT's pocket and DPS whatever target is in that pocket? Melees don't have to dodge a single WW if you don't force a ranged strat upon your melees. -
02-27-2014, 01:30 AMPArcher
What we do with a melee works well
Tornadoes, OT pull Chi, Melee and OT DPS her. Ranged and MT DPS Sup and when Sup is dead ranged switch to Chi.
Melee never have to deal with WW -
02-27-2014, 01:41 AMDrachnyenIf you knew the fight as well as you thought you did you'd simply go 3 range 1 melee and have the 3 ranged burn down Surpana while the melee stays on Chirada with the OT only needing to move to trade spiny, this way all dps have 100% uptime so nobody loses any damage and you get to keep the melee limit break.Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBrooks
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02-27-2014, 01:46 AMOcelotSnake
I've been in a couple of attempts where we tried this and the ranged couldn't kill Suparna in time. Maybe two i90 geared ranged can, but how many of those are you gonna see in a Garuda EX group... Suparna seems to have significantly more HP than Chirada so it makes it damn near impossible for a regular group to kill without the melee dps helping. This might work with 3 ranged dpsing Suparna and the melee and OT on Chirada, I'll have to try that.
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02-27-2014, 01:58 AMLemon8or
Don't have just the ranged DPS on Suparna. Have the OT pulls it over after Chirada is dead then melees can hit it safely as well.
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02-27-2014, 02:00 AMPArcherAnd random WW wipes the melee out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
Yes, Sup still uses WW even after Chi is dead. -
02-27-2014, 02:20 AMJetBrooksQuote:
Originally Posted by Drachnyen
Try reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBrooks
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02-27-2014, 02:20 AMLemon8orI have never seen this happen whether when I tank or DPS. Are you sure that DPS didn't get hit by Garuda's WW which is what remains until Suparna is dead? Video proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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02-27-2014, 02:23 AMJetBrooksNah, I've seen Suparna WW after Chirada was dead on several occasions. Maybe if Slipstream was used right before Chirada gets killed, it's too late, or something like that. I'm not exactly sure of the cause, but I've seen the behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
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02-27-2014, 02:27 AMValkyrieL
The normal strategy is MT takes Garuda/Surpana, OT Takes Chirada+Voke spiny at start of Tornado phase, than switch Spiny with Surpana after Chirada dies (OT Voke CD should be over if he had control of spiny on previous phase, if DPS is high it may have to wait ~5 sec to voke surpana from MT). Yoshi said that the INTENDED
strategy for Garuda Extreme was the the JP strategy, MT tanks Garuda, OT Tanks Surpana, The rest of the Party takes Chirada and SPLIT downburst Dmg from chirada. -
02-27-2014, 02:51 AMPArcherConsidering I was the tank who pulled Sup away from Garuda and still got WWed...yeah, I'd say it wasn't Garuda...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon8or
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02-27-2014, 03:04 AMTraekSuparna does not wicked wheel after Chirada is dead. Only Garuda. If you are the OT running from S to N to get Suparna off MT, there is literally no way you can convince me Suparna did a wicked wheel. You would simply be wrong. There is a slight possibility at the instant Chirada goes down the timer for x2 wicked wheel is up and would still hit the MT, but melee/OT will not be in danger of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
Garuda's wicked wheel while Suparna is still alive will do 4k+ to melee DD, and can very easily lead to their death.
*EDIT* To be useful to the OP, what I found best as a Melee DD on Garuda EX is to pay attention to the timing on your kill of Chirada. I usually run a single heal run, so the timing will look something like this:
Before rocks go down, everyone kills Chirada (usually before or at downburst hitting OT), I sit for 5-8 seconds and see Garuda's wicked wheel go off, then DPS Suparna (sometimes OT will pull away fast and you can hit her as long as you stay out of range of Garuda's wicked wheel), Suparna will not wicked wheel. If you see Friction cast go off as you kill Suparna, be weary that Garuda can still do a wicked wheel in a 1-2 second window (happens after her downburst).
After rocks go down (second sisters and beyond), pew pew Chirada with group, she goes down at same timing (before or at downburst hitting tank), and Garuda will again wicked wheel in 5-8 seconds. Usually as second spiny stack hits OT if you want a marker. Its usually better to play it safe and not chance Garuda's wicked wheel, as tank will be moving around slipstreams and such to get the spiny. So after you see that wicked wheel from Garuda once you've killed Chirada, go ahead and jump/shoulder tackle in. Then its just a matter of looking for Friction. Once you see Friction cast ending, its time to run out of wicked wheel range. Most tanks don't bother to help melee here with positioning. You can help yourself by seeing Friction cast, then watching the tornado pulse around you. Soon as you see/hear the tornado's pulse, just walk casually over to the ranged if there is no room in Garuda/Suparna's area, see the Wicked Wheel go off, and walk back to finish the job.
TL, DR; Its timed, you just have to know the timing difference of Chirada being alive or not. -
02-27-2014, 04:45 AMBardo
Why not use the Japanese "triangle" strategy when you have melee?
During Tornados:
MT brings Garuda to the NW
OT brings Suprana to the NE
DPS brings Chirada together with the entire group to the SW.
Single target LB to kill Chirada. The only attack you have to worry about is Slipstream, in which case you just run through her.
If DPS is REALLY low and you can't kill her before downburst, just stack everyone in front of her because it splits the damage.
When Chirada is about to go down, Suprana and Garuda will automatically jump and switch places, which puts Suprana at the NW corner.
Easy to tackle/jump to and melee NEVER have to worry about being in range of Garuda.
And since the damage on the tanks will be lower and the melee start out together with the healers, it's far easier for sch to hit them with a succor/adloquiem/stoneskin before they tackle/jump across to suprana.
So even if you do get hit by an oddly timed WW, you will survive.
Doing it like this also means the two tanks are much closer to each other so provoking the spiny is MUCH easier than trying to run through the middle of the map to trade. And since they don't have to provoke sisters/garuda off each other, it doesn't matter where the spiny goes at the start, both of them will have provoke up. This helps to mitigate some of the weird aggro BS that can happen with the spiny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcdjFWybJF0 -
02-27-2014, 06:20 AMKitfox
I've been doing triangle with my coil static a few times now on Garuda since I usually like to play melee. I can confirm that I've never seen Suparna use Wheel after DPS have killed Chirada, Garuda does keep using it though. The good thing about triangle is that there's much less burst damage on tanks and no wheels to dodge, so it's safer to do in general, even a less geared team can do it. Now if you're geared to your teeth I would still do it because it's so safe that you can drop one healer for a 5th DPS and keep the safe factor while making for a speedy kill, and your DPS composition doesn't matter.
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02-27-2014, 06:55 AMAlmalexia1. Fists of Earth as you approach GarudaQuote:
Originally Posted by OcelotSnake
2. Ask for SS at the start of each clone phase - doesn't matter if it's from SCH or WHM.
Bonus: Galvanize or Sacred Soil if your SCH gives a shit.
3. Don't get hit by anything else
4. You'll soak WW with 300-700 HP left. More with SCH bonus buffs.
5. Switch back to Fists of Fire.
You shouldn't see more than 1 WW from Garuda if your DPS is on the ball.Quote:
TWO Wicked Wheels
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03-02-2014, 12:34 AMKuroyashaI tried to do it on my server, but some people act like they're learning Calculus II doing the triangle strategy >_>. We had 3 DPS on Chirada in the split. Where was the 4th you ask? Away in a corner b/c for some reason they kept moving away like it was the "normal" NA strat, even when we said/explained 3-way multiple times b4 the start. Other DPS weren't moving through slipstreams so it was basically a wipe when getting hit by downburst afterwards for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
One healer was good (sch), whm would never group heal after downburst(like where's cure 3? lol). Then b/c dps were dead, sup/garuda swap while chi is alive and that's a wrap. I like 3-way best personally, but man it's a pain trying to teach old dogs new tricks, especially when they leave/ragequit after a couple tries.