Hey everybody!
I figured i'd make a forum about it, get chewed out, and get it out of the way now.
I'd just like to mention some thoughts on different aspects of FFXIV:ARR, and would like some feedback on my thoughts, preferably in a positive manner.
First
This, I feel is very important, and should be aforementioned above all else, is without a doubt... Pacing. The game's pace is thrown way out of whack as everything is done quickly, and sloppily. And I mean everything. Combat is fast paced, and requires lightning reflexes to win a battle, this is evident in the GCD and dodging mechanics. Without the GCD it'd be spam-city on every ability, and this is just a way to slow everybody down. Frankly it feels like a massive weight. Dodging, and especially in (what qualifies as) end game content is so deeply rooted, that I'd go far enough to say that it's the main attraction, rather than the battle itself, and it's participants themselves.
Leveling and questing also falls under pacing scrutiny by yours truly because of one simple fact: It's way too easy. There is nigh any difficulty in Leveling now and undermines the achievement. I use achievement lightly because it's hardly that.
Quests are short lived, and easy to complete that require next to no brain power whatsoever. You see a big (!) you talk to the person, Spam the chat box, fly into your journal and mash that [Map] button at the bottom of the quest log. Might as well have an auto-walk and auto-complete button in there to boot.
I'm not saying there should be insane hoops to jump through, and they shouldn't increase the amount of exp you need to level by double, or completely rework the combat system, however It would be vary nice to see some overall changes in game play post 50 as it would be unrealistic to think that such ingrained aspects of the game could be changed 'over night.'
Second
Map size REALLY REALLY REEEEAAAALLY bothers me. I recently was doing a quest where as I was require to walk out into the desert, and to a camp to retrieve some items. I was giddy with excitement at the massive sand dune when I started off on my journey, yet all anticipation fell, as I was literally standing in front of the camp after walking over the single sand dune, a mere 15 seconds later. I quickly checked my map to see the relative distance I had traveled, only to realize it was a solid 15% of the map!
I recall a time when Final Fantasy was about massive WORLDS. worlds that would require TIME to traverse, where you could see MAGNIFICENT sights along the way, that made you thankful you took the long way around. Entire lands that Could not be seen in a single day *cough cough wheeze wheeze*
However, perhaps I'm romanticizing the past when I think about long treks through the Twelvewood in 1.0, or the large towering tree's in the Sanctuary of Zi'Tah, from XI, I had to run around. But I would like to enjoy the absolutely gorgeous world that was given to us, rather than waltz right by it on a Chocobo that does the driving for me.
Third
User Community.
Aye, I fully realize that developers cannot do a thing about this, but If you've read through the post to this point, I'm sure you agree to an extent. And I think we could all use some thoughts on how to go about fixing it.
The community is garbage. Lets face it. Sitting in Mor Dhona all I see are genital jokes and insults wizzing by in the chat log, whenever conversation does poke it's little head out from behind the menders' stand. We've all had to deal with trolls in CT, and that one guy who insults you for using a Game pad... Of course the people who criticize you for gear, complain about buffs, DPS, tanking, or healing aside, none others really need to be mentioned.
Finally
Rather than complaining, I'd like to take a moment to mention what I really enjoy about FFXIV:ARR.
• Character creation
- Love the extensive character creation for personalization
• Fluid movements
- Even on the lowest details, the movement is nice and fluid, big thing for me!
• Gear style
- It's all pretty stylish (IMO) and thank god I don't think I've seen a subligar yet!
• Multiple jobs to one class
- I enjoy this aspect because it adds another layer of depth to 'just being a white mage' or 'just being a Warrior.' There is no set line
It really is a lot easier to think of the bad things, as opposed to the good in something, but I'm sure there's a lot of different things people like and I'm also positive many will oppose what I've said here. However I'd like feedback and opinions!
Thanks for reading. Note: I apologize for any editing errors~
Some things I think need to be brought to attention
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02-23-2014, 06:23 PMCedervaSome things I think need to be brought to attention
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02-23-2014, 06:48 PMKieren-DohlaThe good old days of FFXIV, before roulette and most ppl were new to a dungeon.
One of the things I really really enjoyed when I first started was explorer the world. Even running through areas that were to high a level for me. Now Eorzea doesn't seem big anymore as I continue to make the rounds for gathering, etc.
And as far as beast tribe quests, I stopped doing them, their weren't enough different ones, just after a few days I found myself doing constant repeats and trying to grind to get things like a rake. Well they were neat at first, but with the quest repeating from such a limited set, I got tired of doing it. It was less exciting that even grinding FATEs in North Thanalan with a FATE party.
And roulette, well, there aren't enough dungeons. Like the Main Scenario Roulette is just 3 Cape Westwind, Castrum Meridianum (sp) or The Praetorium. I hadn't done them until the roulette was added. So when I signed up for them, I got roulette ppl, who while fast, just were in such a hurry to burn through everything and get their 200 philo that I missed some of the action lol.
And sometimes I run WP for mythos and for relic weapon quest parts with friends. But you usually need some random to join too, and they come from roulette. And they often don't like my pace, fast, but not a speed run, last guy who came in from roulette kept telling me to go go go go go. When ppl do stuff like that, I don't want to go go go go go. If ppl are polite I'm much more likely to want to do something.
I remember before roulette and a dungeon was new ppl weren't so impatient. So always were but it's made it so much worse. Some of the ppl who come in for roulette get really annoyed if some newbie watches a cutscene and doesn't cancel it and watch it at the inn. I remember when stuff was new, nobody skipped cutscenes. Roulette throughs me in with bunch of impatient ppl who want nothing more than to get their philo and get out as fast as they can. In such a hurry sometimes to the point of being extremely rude! :/ -
02-23-2014, 07:02 PMBunnyChainNow on Odin and earlier on Phoenix I haven't ever seen anything like that. o.OQuote:
Originally Posted by Cederva
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02-23-2014, 08:19 PMVittorino
I don't agree with your first statement, this game is extremely slow paced compared to other games with the same concept; the 2.5 GCD hinders massive combination to make a systematical customization. I personally think the combat is alright and does suffice. For dodging, there is nothing wrong with it at the moment; I would give you a remedy for this particular dilemma, it's called move... your reflexes are too slow if you cannot adapt to this style of gameplay and would advise you to immerse yourself into another game that would cater to your demographic market.
On the other hand I absolutely agree with you on your second note** The maps sizes are certainly underwhelming and can definitely be revamped to give the Themepark* basis of MMO's a new feel. I love expansion and exploring; while this game offers different variation of travel through airships and teleports increasing map size should be on the top of SE's list. If not increasing map size increasing the amount of themepark based zones would suffice; yet only with time and in moderation to what SE deems desirable.
Third** community isn't bad, it's whatever you subject yourself to, if you wish to read neanderthals posting nonsense on trade/area chat use a different tab-.5 of the info coming from that log is of no value. Find a group of individuals with the same mentality and you can mitigate such folly in advance. in-game community is fine and i've seen much worse. Among all the MMO's i've played "Tera Online" has the worst in-game community i've ever bore witness to. e.g go install and sit at level 1 for 2 mins and read chat you'll see it.
Character Customization could use work.
overall a subpar post. yet you bring up some valid variables.
best of luck.
Da Stache -
02-23-2014, 10:30 PMKimikryo
I am on the same server as OP
Genital Jokes?
I have yet to see a chat log full of them, or even insults only. Most of it is recruiting for stuff like "Need x for WP must be ilvl90 no learning run" (yes this does pop up) -
02-23-2014, 11:28 PMHyrist
On the point of the Zones Being small...
Ease of travel really does belie the scale of the maps provided, as does the fact that the zones themselves are segmented.
Let's draw up a comparison here a moment.
http://i.imgur.com/5fHPnfe.png
FFXI's Sanctuary of Zi-tah compared to...
http://i.imgur.com/NU26HGA.jpg
FFXIV's East Shroud.
Note, it's not to scale with one another, obviously we're looking at landforms, not sizes.
Now I note East Shroud in particular due to the issues our current maps have. Note that HALF the map is separated by two bridges and is deep in enemy territory. A level 50 player is going to get harassed by monsters walking in there, and never really pauses to marvel at it. They simply travel from one objective to another riding whatever convenient mount(s) they have on hand to bypass the travel time FFXI forced you to suffer through either through lack of transportation, or lack of navigation.
Note that while Zitah is more segmented, it's travel sections from the segments are usually fairly wide and open. And draw that comparison to something like East Ronfarue...
http://i.imgur.com/MScXIm7.png
It's just one block of land mass (Though the map would look different if it did not include non-traversal land masses...) Actual traveled distances are about the same from one end to the other of these zones. And even in FFXIV, you'll never get a zone that is physically larger in scale than what we have. The zones are quartered off in that to allow it to be played on consoles and maintain a functional level of graphic fidelity. And to be honest this does not bother me, so much as the design of the zones themselves feel more closed and quartered off without any truly 'open' zones which to marvel over. (Which I assume is likely due to limits of draw distance.)
So I can't agree that these maps are small in scale. They're cornered off by obstacles so that you can never see more than a singular segment of the zone, which makes the zones themselves feel more claustrophobic.
I'd like to challenge them to design a zone that's designed to make you look over the landscape and go 'wow'. Rather than to focus our eyes on looking at the individual components. The zones we have got that covered. -
02-24-2014, 04:46 AMCedervaI must be unlucky then, because I have seen quite a lot of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimikryo
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02-24-2014, 06:24 AMKoujiMorenoThough both made by SE, it's still two different games. Should've compared 1.0 and 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
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02-24-2014, 06:48 AMSotekSorry, but how is that not currently the case? This is a MMO, the whole world isn't handed over at once, right now we haven't even left the Mist Continent, for example. The zones between dungeons? Much better than the nondescript overworld of old. The dungeons? Much bigger than places like The Ice Cavern. If you go back as far as Final Fantasy I, XIV already has more than double the number of zones that had, and Eorzea is only one subcontinent of Hydaelyn...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cederva
Only problem I have with Eorzea is the Duty Finder, which completely kills the world by taking you out of it at every possible chance... You go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again. Can't wait for Treasure Map Dungeons, which would hopefully not be on the Duty Finder and actually involve wandering around the map... Assuming Treasure Map Dungeons are still even in the works, which they damn sure better be... -
02-24-2014, 07:07 AMLithera
The whole situation is kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Without the Duty Finder we'd be left with the Party Finder which on it's own is only a marginal improvement over FFXI's system of standing around in Jeuno or whichever city you use as a hub and shout/yelling for a group. WITH Duty Finder everyone just stands around at Mor Dhona and DFs into instances. I can tell you though I likely would have had an easier time with Assaults/Salvage if something like Duty Finder had existed during ToAU time in FFXI.
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02-24-2014, 07:16 AMSotekThey should just merge the two systems: Search the Party Finder, find a group for whatever you need, it can be on a different server, if you join you're moved to that server temporarily (with trading/etc. disabled for you), then your group goes to South Shroud to enter Amdapor Keep and it's business as usual. All the cross-server conveniences of Duty Finder, with none of the world destroying side effects. If you're a lone little newbie on your server, you might even meet a group on another server who you get alone with and decide to move there, instead of what you'd currently do, which I think is just say goodbye after the instance and probably never see them again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
There might be some technical issues with such a system, but the Duty Finder already moves you to another world, and it already disables trading... I can't see it being too hard... -
02-24-2014, 07:53 AMSusanohI don't think too many people are going to be impressed that some progress has been made over Final Fantasy, which was released 27 years ago on an 8 bit console.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
Still, even the original Final Fantasy had a sense of exploration and danger, which is what this game lacks. Even in 1.0, you could wander around and find yourself in an entire zone underground in a transition so seamless that it didn't even feel like a "zone," it felt like an extension of the world you were just in. On the other hand, ARR couldn't possibly try to fragment the world any more than it currently does. You can go from green forrests to a land covered in snow in the blink of an eye. Trying to wander into any kind of unknown territory brings up a menu to "queue up" to enter. It doesn't help that there's no sense of danger either, and that you can easily blitz through anywhere you need to go knowing that nothing in the entire world poses any kind of realistic threat. It's not exactly a step forward in terms of what one might expect from a Final Fantasy overworld in 2013. In many ways it's a big step back. -
02-24-2014, 08:13 AMParodineI definitely agree with your points. For me, size isn't as much of an issue as much as the maps in this game don't feel very... organic. I'm not so much talking about what is in each area as I think the environments themselves are very pretty. But the boundaries/paths are the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrist
It is a very minor complaint in truth, and not one that I would expect reworkings of current areas, but perhaps better opportunities for future areas. -
02-24-2014, 08:25 AMSotekThe original Final Fantasy, and every single one which followed it, pretty much only had a sense of danger in boss fights, which is no less true in XIV. Once you knew what you were doing, grinding overworld mobs was a chore more than anything. Anyone pretending random encounters where "omfg so tense and dangerous!" and not "omfg, this again? seriously?", isn't kidding anyone. Getting hit by heavy when on my chocobo is exactly the same feeling wanting to travel 2 more steps but getting a random encounter that was neither challenging or dangerous that every other game in the series offered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Susanoh
Exploration? Comparing a single player game to a MMO is somewhat unfair. XIV does have a sense of exploration; I remember in beta (when stuck in Gridania) wondering if we'd get to explore The Ruins of Amdapor south of Camp Tranquil, and the giant ruin from Dalamud in North Shroud. Now, come 2.2, I will be able to. Colour me happy. Same thing happened for 2.1, in early access I remember fishing at Aleport and wondering if we'd get to go inside that Lighthouse, then after doing the main quest I was disappointed we didn't get to go in that Lighthouse, then 2.1 hit and I was happy to explore that Lighthouse. There is a sense of exploration in this game. Only the once of course, then it's just a grind and any sense of exploration is gone, but how is that any less true in any of the other Final Fantasy games? Once I've played them once the sense of exploration is mostly gone and I'm just going through the motions when I replay them. The only difference is I don't replay Final Fantasy very often, meanwhile I play Final Fantasy XIV fairly often because it's a MMO.
You can complain that there is no exploration once you can teleport everywhere if you like. I remember the old games for what they were; there was no sense of exploration once I had an airship and could travel anywhere I wanted very easily, either. Once you've explored the whole world and attuned yourself to all the aetherytes, going from a desert to a tundra is very easy. The exact same is true in all the other games, once you've explored the world and gotten an airship, going from a desert to a tundra takes just as long in Final Fantasy I to X. -
02-24-2014, 08:34 AMDyvidWell having played SWTOR when it launched without a DF I can tell you it's just one of those things MMO need now a days. I remember doing maybe 5 out of 12 dungeons total because it was either sit in the city hub /sh for a group or go into the world and level. Only thing DF does is make party invite automatic and not manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
All this talk about the huge maps in FFXI makes me want to log in and see how long it actually takes to travel a zone on Chocobo. I would guess no more that 5 mins per zone. -
02-24-2014, 08:43 AMSusanohYou're talking about instanced dungeons. Something you have to queue up for that have a single set path and no secrets, no deviation, and most importantly, aren't part of the overworld. You cannot even travel to them through the entrance if you tried to. When traveling to the entrance, you're met with the duty finder screen and given an option to queue up from there. If that's something you enjoy, more power to you, but you can't expect people disappointed with the game's world to be impressed by something which, to use your own words which I could not agree more with, "kills the world by taking you out of it at every possible chance."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
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02-24-2014, 08:44 AMSeleneSinclairHere's the problem with your map logic: the difference between FFXI maps (which you were clearly referencing) and these in relative size are not different at all. The difference is, this game, you actually have a mount. If you wanted to "explore" like that, you could always just...dismount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cederva
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02-24-2014, 08:52 AMSotekBy all means, be disappointed with it, my point is you're disappointed because of rose tinted glasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Susanoh
My first run of Sastasha? Pretty damn good. I explored it, was it linear? Mostly. There was "secrets" that you could skip, same with every dungeon in the game.
My first play through of Final Fantasy? Temple of Chaos was pretty damn good, blah blah blah, same with every dungeon in that game.
There is really no difference between them, other than the fact that you keep playing XIV over and over, where as after being done with Final Fantasy, you were. If I just went through Temple of Chaos over and over, like I do Amdapor Keep, there would be absolutely no difference. Please stop pretending there is. -
02-24-2014, 08:53 AMKaiserFire
In terms of skill spam the 2.5sec GCD is relatively slow paced compared to similar games. The dodging mechanic does feel overused in some fights, but unless you have a bad connection it doesn't require "lighting reflexes" to avoid enemy attacks. As far as leveling and questing goes most of us here are probably use to a much slower pace, but I don't think that is going to be the norm in the future as these types of games reach a wider and more diverse audience.
Bigger maps would be nice, but I imagine there must have been technical constraints of some kind that dictated their final size.
I don't agree that the community is "garbage". Granted I don't hang around in towns that much, but I hardly ever see the insults and trolling you describe. In fact I'm surprised at how quiet the public chat logs are in this game compared to previous MMO's I've played.
I agree with the good points you listed. While there are some design problems, the game really excels in the art department. -
02-24-2014, 09:04 AMSusanohThere's a very clear difference and it's plain to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
Every FF game: Walk around, find stuff, see what's inside.
FF14: Walk around, be directed to stuff by quest guy, get pointed into the direction of a menu that takes you out of the game world and into an instance with other players like a typical hub game.
I don't know why I'm bothering to explain it to you though, because I know that on some level you understand despite now pretending that you don't. Again, these are your words. "Only problem I have with Eorzea is the Duty Finder, which completely kills the world by taking you out of it at every possible chance... You go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again." Other FF games didn't feel like a cramped hub where you get taken out of the world to go anywhere interesting. Even the other online Final Fantasy titles (XI, the original FFXIV) did not do this. Spout nonsense like "rose tinted glasses" all you like, but even you from back one page would have understood what I'm talking about in reference to ARR, so I see no reason why you right now seems reluctant to understand. -
02-24-2014, 09:20 AMSotekI think you mean;Quote:
Originally Posted by Susanoh
Every Final Fantasy game: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever.
Final Fantasy XIV: Cutscene, NPC tells you what to do next, choose to do that next, go to that objective for next dungeon/cutscene/boss/whatever, queue up for that dungeon/boss/whatever (which takes no time at all if you already have a party assembled, you know, like the old games already did for you).
Seriously. Go play Final Fantasy again, or any of the other games. Then make a new character on XIV. Other than the side quests there is really very little difference.
Final Fantasy I, you're stuck wandering around outside the first town until you "decide" to enter it and continue the game.
Final Fantasy VI, sets you on the story right from the start with very little wandering around.
Final Fantasy IX, stuck in Alexandria until you progress the story, with a few side quests.
Final Fantasy XIV, stuck in your starter city, with a few NPCs to talk to, until you progress the story and unlock a bunch of side quest.
Final Fantasy IX, you're then thrown into a series of cutscenes until you end up in a linear forest. Then you get to the overworld and you can "wander" until you get to the only possible destination; the Ice Cavern. Again, pretty Linear, no less so than Sastasha. After I've played Final Fantasy IX a bit and gone through all the dungeons, gotten an airship and (for some bizarre reason) go back to the Ice Cavern, I'm no longer exploring it because I already have. The exact same is true for Final Fantasy XIV. First run of Sastasha is exploring it, after that I'm not. Complaining that "there is no exploration like the old games" is complete and utter bullshit. They are exactly the same, except for that fact that you don't ever finish a MMO.
Yes, I know exactly what I said. Guess what? Final Fantasy <whatever> had "you go to the entrance of a dungeon once, then never again" because you very rarely ever needed to go back there ever again once you've cleared it. My issue with the Duty Finder is in relation to other (older) MMOs, not single player RPGs which are a completely different entity and really shouldn't be compared to MMOs in the way most people are here.
The common complaint I see with the world is that you get around too easily. Make a new character and get to Ishgard, please. What's that? It's only easy to get around once you've explored the world and leveled up? How funny. Reload an old copy of any Final Fantasy game where you're up to the final dungeon. How easy is it to travel around with that airship of yours? Seriously, stop pretending there is a difference. It is really quite a hilarious complaint. How long does it take me to travel around the entire world in Final Fantasy IX once I have the Invisible? Matter of second. How long would it take me to do that in Final Fantasy XIV? -
02-24-2014, 09:44 AMSusanohAll this text and you still refuse to acknowledge the biggest point that separates the world of FF14 ARR from every Final Fantasy game (online or offline, including the original FF14) before it. That being that all the areas in all of those older FF games were a part of the world, and most of the areas in FF14 ARR are outside of the world in a location that you get to by queueing up as if you were playing a hub game like Phantasy Star Online. I have nothing against hub games, by the way. They're fine games in their own right. But they come with their own set of advantages and disadvantages, and having a large seamless world is not one of those advantages. I'm not quite sure why you continue babbling on about all of this other nonsense rather than the one point that was in the comment you actually responded to. That being that FF14 feels like a hub game where most interesting zones are outside of the world, other FF games do not. Not everyone is going to prefer the same types of games, and even if you're now suddenly big on the whole "queue up for everything and leave the world to go to isolated instances" for everything now, it doesn't mean everyone else has to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
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02-24-2014, 09:46 AMKiayinYou *can* take level 1 characters anywhere but through some of the strongholds. Even the Sylphlands, as long as you're careful. Why don't you make a new character and get it to Ishgard? You probably won't even need to use Sprint. o.o;Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
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02-24-2014, 09:53 AMSotekI'm not acknowledging that because that wasn't what I was arguing against... In fact, I've already stated that there is a problem there and given input on possible improvements. If this is your point, I don't know why you're arguing against me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Susanoh
At the end of the day, Final Fantasy XIV is no different to the older games, other than the fact that you need a group of other, real, people. In fact, in every way that matters, it is superior. People (yourself included) are pretending that the older games were somehow better in this regard, which is completely false.
I said as much in my original posts, how where the old games better when it comes to exploration or danger? They weren't. XIV clearly wins on exploration (compare Alexandria up to Dali, to the start of XIV to Sastasha. Alexandria to Dali is pretty much linear, XIV the moment you're out of the starting city you could technically travel to Mor Dhona). Danger? All random encounters became a drag, very quickly. They were not dangerous. They added no tension to the games. Just like getting hit by gravity in XIV.
Well, as long as you don't start in Limsa Lominsa. Anyway, my point was it wouldn't be instant, and you would have to avoid monsters which can one shot you at that level (*cough*danger*cough*). People only think the world is small because once you've gotten to the end, you can travel everywhere easily with teleports. The exact same holds true in the old games, traveling Gaia in IX isn't hard once you have an airship, just like traveling Eorzea isn't hard once you can teleport. People complaining that XIV is some how less in this regard are bordering on delusional...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiayin
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02-24-2014, 10:25 AMSusanohThe fact that all of these instanced dungeons are outside of the overworld world is exactly what makes the world feel so cramped and devoid of exploration. It's completely contrast to every other Final Fantasy game where the entirety of the game was a part of the world. When the overworld itself feels cramped and there's nowhere to go, there's hardly a reason to explore the world. And it's not even a case of "well it's not interesting after you've seen everything for the first time." It's more a case of "it's not interesting the first time you see it" because there's barely anything in it at all. Everything interesting is locked away behind the duty finder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
As for danger, I certainly don't remember all of the FF titles being quite as easy to roll through as this game is. IIRC, they even toned down the difficulty for the NA version of FFIV because they felt it would be too difficult for NA audiences, and that was back when even many NA games had some challenge in mind. I seriously doubt anyone would consider the main game in FFXIV ARR too difficult for any audience on Earth. -
02-24-2014, 10:32 AMKiayinMob density is so low that you hardly need to avoid anything actually. :p You do have a point about the exploration bit never being FF's forte - but ARR's completely devoid of it. Anyway - people compare Eorzea to other mmo worlds - and compared to a lot of them, Eorzea's pretty tiny - whether you teleport everywhere or not. ^^;.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
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02-24-2014, 10:35 AMSotek
No. What makes the world feel so cramped and devoid of exploration is the fact that you've already explored it. Nobody, and I mean nobody, walked into Coerthas for the first time, their map completely blank, and didn't feel some sense of exploration from that. You didn't know what was around the corner at that point. That is when exploration was alive in XIV.
Removing the Duty Finder? That wouldn't solve the issue, though it would be nice. You're not going to be running to Amdapor Keep for the bajillionth time and feeling any sense of exploration, because it will be the bajillionth time you're trod that path.
Making bigger zones? Again, doesn't solve the issue. Just means you spend slightly longer exploring a zone. Once you've explored it though, you've still explored it, and you have the exact same problem we have now.
The problem with exploration is one of creating a feeling of sustained exploration. Single player titles didn't need to worry about this, you explored, finished the game, done. MMOs? you explored, then you grind levels, gear, whatever. The only real solution to this problem is frequent content updates which include new zones to explore. Again, if you played a single player title like you do a MMO, you'd have the exact same problem. You get an airship. You can travel from the Ice Cavern to the final dungeon in a matter of seconds. Exploration is dead by the end of any game. And as for "everything interesting is locked away behind the duty finder", I disagree with that completely, and I could go about posting dozens of pictures to refute it, but at this point I really cannot be asked. All the challenging "random encounter" level mobs are, certainly. Landmarks however, there are interesting ones literally round every corner which would have elicited some reaction upon first discovering them. I remember discovering Urth's Fount quite fondly. Though that was during beta when the level cap was "Go here and you will die".
As for difficulty, well, I certainly never had trouble with random encounters in any RPG outside the initial learning period of the game. After that it's just "Can I one hit this with simple attacks? Yes? Mash A. No? What is this weak to?" etc. Bosses were the only real challenge in any of the old games, when I got "stuck" in any of them, it wasn't a matter of "this random encounter is too hard!", it was a matter of "this boss is too hard, better grind easy random encounters to level". -
02-24-2014, 11:07 AMSusanohWhat makes the world feel cramped is undeniably that the world is very small in scale. As for exploration, I'm not sure if I'd call running around a bunch of small zones for the first time like ARR's Coerthas an experience in exploration. Sure, technically you are exploring, but you can easily see everything there is to see in no time at all and there's no branching paths that would make it interesting anyway. You walk around that zone once and that's it, it's done. Keep in mind this is a 2013 game, and one would expect improvements on what we'd seen 20+ years ago on 8-16 bit consoles. If we compare this game to 1.0 where I could walk around for twice the amount of time and still not see every path, and at times run into seamless connected "zones" branching off of the main path, all of which have been either instanced or removed entirely, it feels fairly bare. You could make the argument that even after you've gone through every one of those zones, there's no more need for "exploring," but I would still say that a large and expansive world remains more interesting than a small and cramped one even after there's no more need to explore it. When I played FFXI I returned to many "dungeon" style areas for plenty of reasons even after I'd seen them the first time, even after I'd finished exploring them. Exping in unconventional areas (even if just for a change of pace), skill ups, farming, quests, NMs, or whatever else there is. If half or more than half of those areas had been locked away for structured dungeons, it would have severely limited what I'm able to go out and do in the world, and that's the situation that FF14 ARR is in and will continue to be in as long as instancing content is the primary focus on the development team. And again, some people might enjoy that type of game (some games are based around that type of play and nothing else), but it's not necessarily for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
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02-24-2014, 11:13 AMOtoha
Lack of danger and nothing worth farming for in any zone period.
Those are both things that kill off exploration and sense of adventure, period.
An example, when I had played ffxi for a few months pre abyssea, I felt sense of danger in multiple zones, I felt the need to farm certain nms for rare drops, and I'm referring to starting cities and zones around them. So this feeling I had doesn't even include expansions. -
02-24-2014, 11:14 AMKiayinI guess I've been spoiled - but my mmorpg's of choice all had cavern systems, secret areas and little things for me to discover years down the road. Maps so large that I'd still get lost from time to time, hidden achievements and all sorts of treats. ARR's maps have the trees marked down. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sotek
My experience's been different. From Lotro to GW- I've had plenty of those moments, and they were extremely memorable. :) It can be done right - whether people want it or not is up for debate. This is an opinion thread after all - and different people like different things.Quote:
As for difficulty, well, I certainly never had trouble with random encounters in any RPG outside the initial learning period of the game. After that it's just "Can I one hit this with simple attacks? Yes? Mash A. No? What is this weak to?" etc. Bosses were the only real challenge in any of the old games, when I got "stuck" in any of them, it wasn't a matter of "this random encounter is too hard!", it was a matter of "this boss is too hard, better grind easy random encounters to level".
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02-24-2014, 11:19 AMSotek
Coerthas may be a bad example, considering it is an underdeveloped region (with at least three other zones being introduced later), while the others (sans Mor Dhona) offer much more to explore. But even then, no branching paths? Are you kidding? If you're exploring the zone (not following the quests), then there are plenty of branches there... Two steps in from North Shroud and you have the first one for crying out loud... Heck, exploring in RPGs usually means going the opposite direction to where you want to go (I found a split in this dungeon, I continue on one way, there is the boss, travel back to explore that other path first). In which case, moment I entered Coerthas I traveled towards Boulder Downs and Snowcloak. Heck, when I explored Coerthas, I ran around going "This is going to be a path to a future zone, neat" a lot. It was pretty damn fun, did it a lot during the first few days. That is how you explore, you don't go there because the quest pointed you that way, you just go there because you're exploring, and more often than not you'll be doing it at a lower level than intended so there is your sense of danger.
Problem I have with such maps is that they often become unmemorable because there is just a lot of nothing between noteworthy places. XIV suffers from the exact opposite problem where there is so much in each zone that it's kind of overwhelming and I forget various areas just because there is so much in one zone. Amberscale Rock isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I try to think about Central Shroud, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiayin
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02-24-2014, 11:32 AMSusanoh
By branching paths I'm talking about places within the zone you can actually get lost in and be taken in an entirely different direction. For example, in 1.0 you could run around bloodshore just like any other zone, but if you head through a cavern you'd find yourself underground in an area big enough to be a small zone by itself. FFXI didn't have such seamless transitions (edit: by the way, that's not to say it didn't have interesting zones aside from the main path, because it did, just that it wasn't quite as seamless as in 1.0 most likely due to hardware limitations), but if it did, it would be along the lines of what Ordelle's Caves were to La Theine. If ARR didn't instance every interesting piece of content, maybe you'd be able to wander into a place like Dzemael Darkhold and have a look around. But it doesn't, so you're completely limited to the standard zones and once you've had a quick run around them, that's the end of it aside from instanced content. There's no open world caves, mines, ruins, etc. to get lost in along the "main" path to explore once or return to at any point in the future.
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02-24-2014, 11:46 AMSotek
I think you're being a bit too generous calling the instanced content in XIV interesting, I at least find Coerthas has more interesting landmarks than Dzemeal Darkhold. Coerthas with Dzemael Darkhold as openworld content would pale in comparison to Ordelle's Caves (though Ordelle's Caves had a waterfall and that hidden passage? Can't remember much more about it that was particularly interesting. Not that Dzemeal Darkhold is much better, but I guess that's my point), though with maps being what they are in XIV I can't really ever see myself ever getting lost. Short of poorly designed maps (I'm looking at you, Kazham) it would just be impossible. XI it was possible because you had to buy the maps, heck it was possible after you had the map because looking at the map was a royal pain in comparison to XIV.
This does remind me of a suggestion I posted a while back, though, which is somewhat relevant; open up instanced dungeons after certain quests have been completed. So, the dungeons become a proper zone, and a fair few of them have plenty of blocked off paths that could be utilized. It would be a stretch to find a purpose for some of them, but the zones are already there, it wouldn't be too difficult to just open them up. -
02-24-2014, 12:06 PMSusanoh
I'd agree that Ordelle's Caves has Dzemael Darkhold beat. But I still think that the open world needs areas similar to these to remain interesting. Speaking of FFXI, the game had quite a few areas like this even pre-Zilart. It had the big open areas like the forrests in Ronfaure, plains in La Theine, beaches in Valkurm, etc. but also had the ancient looking Horutoto Ruins, a dark underground prison in Bostaunieux Oubliette, mines of Gusgen and Palborough, Fei'Yin, Delkfutt's Tower, King Ranperre's Tomb, Castle Zvhal Bailey's...all of these were dungeon like areas of varying difficulty levels, some of them contained mobs that would tear you apart if you were unprepared or not paying attention, even at the highest levels. I'm not trying to turn this into a FFXI vs. FFXIV debate, but merely pointing out that this is the type of variety that I would expect in an interesting online FF overworld. ARR might not be completely lacking in terms of overall content, but with absolutely zero areas like this, it completely fails as an overworld IMHO.
By the way, by "interesting" I don't necessarily mean that something like Ordelle's Caves is going to blow your mind, just that it adds flavor and variety to a world that would otherwise feel completely bare bones without it. Having Caves under La Theine adds a slight layer of depth that just wouldn't be there if it were just a gigantic plain and nothing else. A zone like King Ranpherre's Tomb even connects Ronfaure to an isolated location in Jugner Forrest, which gives you a perfect sense of scale as to where you are in the world and where you just traveled. In an FF game, you expect to find some caves sometimes in the world. You expect to find a Castle, or a tower, not just remain in an outdoor forrest or desert the entire time. As far as I know ARR is the only FF game with an overworld that never, ever ever lets you explore an area like this within that open world. -
02-24-2014, 12:29 PMAunaYuuki
Wish my server had more jokes. :<
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02-24-2014, 12:38 PMSenfei
I think what Sotek is trying to convey is that no matter how much "exploration" you put in an MMO, eventually it will become stale. No matter how many nooks and crannies SE throws into a zone, people who care -will- find them all. Then what? It's why I also don't understand what people are wanting when they say they want exploration.
The only way I can see these people being happy is if there were randomly generated zones ala Minecraft worlds that you enter with random chests and puzzles scattered throughout. As cool as that would be, I can't even begin to imagine how much work that would take to accomplish successfully. -
02-24-2014, 12:48 PMSotekI'd actually like to see something like this for Free Companies, a Frontier sort of zone. Can't see much other reason for us to build our own Airship...Quote:
Originally Posted by Senfei
Plop us in the middle of a randomly generated zone. Disciples of Land gather resources, Disciples of War/Magic defend them, Disciples of Hand build a base (similar to Housing). That allows FATEs to spawn with monsters attacking your base, which needs defending. You can then explore the area, with Disciples of Land/Hand overcoming obstacles (cutting down a dense forest, building a bridge, etc.), with the end result being a (non-random) dungeon that is discovered. This is what happens when I play Minecraft while fishing... Doesn't even really need to be randomly generated, to be honest.
We have plenty of jokes.Quote:
Originally Posted by AunaYuuki
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Exc...4f_4148562.jpg -
02-24-2014, 12:52 PMSusanohYeah, I get that point, and it's well taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Senfei
But I'd like to note that while randomly generated zones is another subject entirely, it wouldn't take something on that scale to please me personally. I'd settle for a world that was fun to explore the first time and had enough scale and variety that it remained interesting enough to exist in even it it had been explored in its entirety. I don't think the ARR world is terrible (edit: or what's there right now, I should say), I just think it feels unfinished and bare due to the devs choosing to make anything beyond the most basic open areas instanced. -
02-24-2014, 01:08 PMDyvid
I think the key issue with dungeons is old school perception. People who played EQ or FFXI look at dungeons like Garlaige Citadel, Eldieme Necropolis, or even Grand Palace of Hu'Xzoi but that's not FFXIV or modern MMOs anymore. People toss the word theme park around a lot so let go with that. If FFXIV:ARR is a theme park than instance content is the ride. It's set on rails and allows the dev to create a unique experience that you just can't do in open world content. Think of a boss fight and then imagine what it would like as a FATE with everyone in range zerg.
Remember that 2.0 is a early in it's life and that expansion of the world takes time. It's also fair to note that they rebuilt the entire world in under 3 years which is a huge undertaking. In a recent interview Yoshi-P said he wants add more exploration into the game.