Garuda Ex NA/Japanese style

There has been to my attention there are 2 ways of clearing instances, the NA method and the JP method.

Just want to spread more word on the japanese method, makes it easier for MT to handle double wicked wheel.

Using '3 tanks'.
Here's the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_0KXPY4OAc

For those who cannot be bothered watching the video,
NA DF/PF groups' methods (usually): MT tanks Garuda & Suprana, OT tanks Chirada & Spiny
JP's method: MT tanks Garuda, OT tanks Suprana, DPS & Heals tank chirada together in a group.

It's also way more melee-friendly.

I'd rather just solo tank it and have an extra DPS

I always use JP method 3 ways of tanking, less stressful on MT.

Whoever tanking Garuda positioned it at 11
Whoever tanking Suparna positioned it at 1
Chirada at 7 (melee DPS pull it)

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Originally Posted by Estellios

It's also way more melee-friendly.

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I don't see how this is more melee-friendly, as one of the melees is probably going to tank and therefore loses out on positionals. There is a 100% melee friendly way to do Garuda EX which doesn't require 3 tanks. Not gonna re-iterate on it once again, just look up of the dozen other threads on Garuda EX and melee friendly tactics. I don't see any advantage in the JP version, unless your MT sucks big time at utilizing their CDs.

Melee DPS doesn't necessarily have to "tank it", Chirada doesn't do a lot of damage other than her skills, Slipstream (dodge it), Friction (dodge it). Downburst is the only threat to DPS which can be mitigated a lot when all 4 dps stack together.

I've done this a lot and I say if you know you're stuff, you won't be having problems with your positional skills, especially since you'll be busy using LB1 on Chirada anyway. Also note, after Chirada is dead, Suprana doesn't cast Wicked Wheel anymore.

To put it to perspective, this is very very similar to how DPS/healers used to take Chirada in Garuda HM, only this time, DPS has to be right at the edge of the tornado else Stacks can go up when Garuda and Suprana switches.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

I don't see how this is more melee-friendly, as one of the melees is probably going to tank and therefore loses out on positionals. There is a 100% melee friendly way to do Garuda EX which doesn't require 3 tanks. Not gonna re-iterate on it once again, just look up of the dozen other threads on Garuda EX and melee friendly tactics. I don't see any advantage in the JP version, unless your MT sucks big time at utilizing their CDs.

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What Decrith said.

And this way doesn't require 3 tanks. The DPS just unload on Chirada immediately and if your DPS is good enough you can kill her right when Garuda/Suparna switch places. Typically a BRD will end up tanking anyway just because they are ranged and their damage is front-loaded and their DoTs are so potent.

The NA do it differently?

I will add some description for what happens. Chirada is taken by the DPS to 7 o'clock, Supana is taken to 1, the Spiny and Garuda are taken to 11, Healers should be at 5.

DPS should all stack right in front of Chirada, this makes is easiest to avoid slip stream. This includes ranged DPS and positional Melee DPS. You will kill it plenty fast enough without the positioning.

Healers are at 5 because the unavoidable friction ALWAYs targets the healers. This is very frequently over looked. At the start the DPS should group at Garuda while the healers are in the middle of the rocks. Only the healers will get hit. When the tornado is around the outside of the area as well the DPS should distance themselves from the DPS. We usually have healers go to the west, Ranged DPS at the south, Melee on Garuda with MT at the North and eventually the ST pulls the Spiny to the East.

The Tank at 11 should stay close enough to the middle of the area so that the healers at 5 can still hit him.

I didn't honestly know there was another method for doing this fight. ^^

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Originally Posted by Estellios

The DPS just unload on Chirada immediately and if your DPS is good enough you can kill her right when Garuda/Suparna switch places.

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Chirada triggers the Garuda/Suprana swap when she reaches 50% so you can't kill her "right as the switch happens".

How is the other one NA method?

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Originally Posted by Decrith

Melee DPS doesn't necessarily have to "tank it"

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But I'm actually not interested in intentionally slowing down on DPS just to let a ranged DD tank it. This doesn't exactly speed up the kill.

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Originally Posted by Decrith

Chirada doesn't do a lot of damage other than her skills, Slipstream (dodge it), Friction (dodge it). Downburst is the only threat to DPS which can be mitigated a lot when all 4 dps stack together.

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It's not about Chirada's DPS, it's about grabbing aggro due to higher DPS so any competent melee DPS will end up tanking her.

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Originally Posted by Decrith

I've done this a lot and I say if you know you're stuff, you won't be having problems with your positional skills, especially since you'll be busy using LB1 on Chirada anyway.

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We don't use any LB on Chirada and just kill Garuda with LB2/LB3, when her HP are low enough.

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Originally Posted by Decrith

Also note, after Chirada is dead, Suprana doesn't cast Wicked Wheel anymore.

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Yeah, that's actually the same with the "provoke method", JP style doesn't have an edge here.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

And this way doesn't require 3 tanks.

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Of course not, but one of your DPS will have to fill in as a third "tank".

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Originally Posted by Estellios

The DPS just unload on Chirada immediately and if your DPS is good enough you can kill her right when Garuda/Suparna switch places. Typically a BRD will end up tanking anyway just because they are ranged and their damage is front-loaded and their DoTs are so potent.

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The "provoke" method also immediately unloads on Chirada and I'd say no to a Bard ending up to be the tank, if your melee DPS know how to play their classes.

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Originally Posted by Maku

DPS should all stack right in front of Chirada, this makes is easiest to avoid slip stream. This includes ranged DPS and positional Melee DPS. You will kill it plenty fast enough without the positioning.

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Stacking in front of Chirada does again equal DPS loss. What exactly is the advantage of the JP style method, other then to make up for either bad tanks and/or bad healers?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

How is the other one NA method?

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Don't really know if this is an NA method, but this is how we handle things in EU:

- OT grabs Chirada and the Spiny Plume and takes them to the South-East
- Melee DPS will follow the OT, all of your DPS (incl. range) will focus on killing Chirada first
- MT grabs Garuda and Suparna and takes them to the North-West
- healers and ranged DPS will go to the South-West
- Once Chirada is dead, the OT will provoke Suparna and drag her into the melee corner
- Once OT is at 2 stacks, your MT will provoke Spiny and start to prepare it to be at < 20% HP before the jump
- all of your DPS focus in killing Suparna and then switch to Garuda for the remainder of the time
- when Garuda jumps, just kill the Spiny and you are set and done

This method has only 2 people tanking (dedicated tanks), allows positionals for your melee DPS, doesn't require ranged DDs to be in melee range and totally avoids any whicked wheel on the melee DPS. Your main tank will have to handle a double Whicked Wheel, but this is easily done by using Cooldowns.

I really don't see any advantage in using the JP method, unless you have to make up for fail tanks.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Stacking in front of Chirada does again equal DPS loss. What exactly is the advantage of the JP style method, other then to make up for either bad tanks and/or bad healers?


- healers and ranged DPS will go to the South-West

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I never said there was an advantage to doing it our way. Just was explaining it. It does make for a very smooth fight and can be easily done with not the best of players which is important when doing puggroups. Also, the DPS stack in front of Chirada because I believe her one move is an AoE frontal swing that the damage is divided between the people she hits. This isn't slipstream. I could be wrong on this but when this fight first came out I was dieing to something Chirada was doing on my BRD until another DPS said everyone should stack and then we had no problem. Yes it is a DPS lose but it isn't a DPS lose that really affects anything cause you still kill in plenty of time often before Chirada uses Friction.

Also, Healers should be kept separate from the rest of the party as much as possible in this fight because Garuda's unavoidable frictions always target healers so if they are away from everyone they are the only ones getting hit.

Your way is what we usually do, but SOME players are so persistant about having one DPS pull suparna, and insisting "best strat gtfo noob".

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

I really don't see any advantage in using the JP method, unless you have to make up for fail tanks.

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Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream? At the end of the day you are increasing the gear requirement for the main tank and the healer so that one melee DPS can get his positional bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream?

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I would agree with this, people keep on forgetting how much of a free pass the NA method gives the dps. I think it's all about distributing difficulty depending on your composition, I've done one cycle runs with either method so people who say a 3 stack is a dps loss need to go do their homework. 3 stacks are very good when you have 5 dps with 2 or more melee, when it's 4 dps with one melee either way seems fine. When it's all ranged it makes sense to 2 stack.

However what people want to do is instead design their composition around their strategy, and not the other way around. Being inflexible with your strats is bad play, I think there's a strat to suit any dps composition on Garuda.

This is why we preach on about 3 stacking, it has it's use but people are bad and don't want to think outside the box.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Couldn't you make the argument that the only advantage of using the NA method is to make up for fail DPS that can't stack for Downburst or avoid slip stream?

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Nope, the provoke method makes sure that everyone can focus on their actual job. So DPS focus on DPS and don't have to either avoid Whicked Wheels (which will take away from your DPS as you will have to back up from your target as a melee) or stack up in front of your target (so to lose out on positionals) or even worse be forced to tank (which isn't actually the responsibility of a DPS class in the first place). Tanks are there to take care of the tanking part, so why would you want to take away from their tanking duty?

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

At the end of the day you are increasing the gear requirement for the main tank and the healer so that one melee DPS can get his positional bonuses.

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No, it doesn't really increase the gear requirement, as it's more a question of utilizing your defensive cooldowns rather than having a big HP pool to just suck it up. And I'm not talking about one melee DPS. The provoke method actually works with any kind of DPS setup, you could as well bring 4 melees.

how does melee pull/keep agro on chirada?

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

how does melee pull/keep agro on chirada?

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The DPS that attack Chirada first will get agro, I have seen both melee/range pulling Chirada. Most of the time Chirada die fast enough without having to worry that it will agro on someone else. Both are viable strategy I have done both method plenty of time, have seen both method fail and succeed, the success rate are pretty much the same. My coil healer prefer the JP method, though I never really ask him why, my FC uses the NA method though.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Nope, the provoke method makes sure that everyone can focus on their actual job.So DPS focus on DPS and don't have to either avoid Whicked Wheels (which will take away from your DPS as you will have to back up from your target as a melee) or stack up in front of your target (so to lose out on positionals) or even worse be forced to tank (which isn't actually the responsibility of a DPS class in the first place). Tanks are there to take care of the tanking part, so why would you want to take away from their tanking duty?

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Chirada doesn't do Wicked Wheel and I'm pretty sure Suparna stops doing Wicked Wheel after Chirada dies (please correct otherwise), so neither strategy should require the DPS to avoid Wicked Wheel. Downburst (the stack mechanic) is cast after Friction, so really the DPS only need to stack after Friction is cast meaning that even a 4 melee DPS composition would only have 1 melee DPS not getting positional bonuses (the "tank").

DPS in WoW only DPS. DPS in this game are expected, and fully capable, of doing more than simply DPSing. They have Class Skills (Featherfoot, Keen Flurry, Fists of Earth) and Cross Class Skills (Foresight) intended for light tanking.

I'm not implying either strategy is "better" as that's a bit subjective, but the NA method is basically throwing more mechanics at the tanks and healers for the sake of giving the DPS less to worry about, hence why I said it's making up for DPS that fail at mechanics (which it is).

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

No, it doesn't really increase the gear requirement, as it's more a question of utilizing your defensive cooldowns rather than having a big HP pool to just suck it up. And I'm not talking about one melee DPS. The provoke method actually works with any kind of DPS setup, you could as well bring 4 melees.

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For a tank going in there at ilvl 65-70 there is very little room for error on NA method, even if the tank is utilizing CDs properly. If you go in there with ilvl 80+ gear, which the majority of groups running NA strategy are in, then this doesn't become an issue because of the larger health pools. So yes, I would say that utilizing this strategy is artificially increasing the gear requirement for the tank and possibly healer role. It'd be like running Hydra and having the off tank pick up the adds so the DPS wouldn't be inconvenienced and having the main tank solo Hydra; it's possible if you over gear the content enough.

Once again, I'm not saying one is better, but implying that the JP method is for fail tanks seems quite silly considering the NA method is just throwing more mechanics on the MT so that the DPS don't have to think about mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

I would agree with this, people keep on forgetting how much of a free pass the NA method gives the dps. I think it's all about distributing difficulty depending on your composition, I've done one cycle runs with either method so people who say a 3 stack is a dps loss need to go do their homework. 3 stacks are very good when you have 5 dps with 2 or more melee, when it's 4 dps with one melee either way seems fine. When it's all ranged it makes sense to 2 stack.

However what people want to do is instead design their composition around their strategy, and not the other way around. Being inflexible with your strats is bad play, I think there's a strat to suit any dps composition on Garuda.

This is why we preach on about 3 stacking, it has it's use but people are bad and don't want to think outside the box.

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I agree with everything you said. People see one strategy that works and take it as optimal without thinking of how to better improve their tactics. Just because something can be made to work doesn't mean it's the best way of doing it.

One clarification: what are you referring to when you say 2 and 3 stacking?

I play on a JP server so don't have much experience with the way that MT takes Garuda and Suparna other than the first set of adds.

At least on my data center, Garuda EX have pretty high chance of success with Duty Finder so it works pretty well.

Am I the only one who thinks it's hilarious that DPS tanking Chirada on EX is suddenly "not letting the tanks do their job" when I've never seen a tank actually pick up the green add on HM? On HM it's an expected part of the strategy, and you're just doing your job as a DPS. On EX, though, you're suddenly trying to steal the tank's job. . .

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

One clarification: what are you referring to when you say 2 and 3 stacking?

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The positions of Garuda and the adds. 2 stacks is MT taking Garuda and Suprana and OT taking Chirada, 3 stack is the DPS taking Chirada, OT taking Suprana and MT taking Garuda. Also called 2-way or 3-way.

Also Vodomir I'm curious, what makes you think it's not the DPS job to avoid attacks, considering we have fights where it is all about avoiding attacks (Titan)? With the way WW is designed and the low ilevel requirement, I actually think SE intended for the DPS to take Chirada much like in HM.

Also on the flipside Japanese players are pretty stuck in their ways as well, I went into a game with a 7 man premade last night and we did a 2-way method, and the melee pug was so confused he rage quit and abandoned a free clear. The nightmare mount dropped too lmao.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

The positions of Garuda and the adds. 2 stacks is MT taking Garuda and Suprana and OT taking Chirada, 3 stack is the DPS taking Chirada, OT taking Suprana and MT taking Garuda. Also called 2-way or 3-way.

Also Vodomir I'm curious, what makes you think it's not the DPS job to avoid attacks, considering we have fights where it is all about avoiding attacks (Titan)? With the way WW is designed and the low ilevel requirement, I actually think SE intended for the DPS to take Chirada much like in HM.

Also on the flipside Japanese players are pretty stuck in their ways as well, I went into a game with a 7 man premade last night and we did a 2-way method, and the melee pug was so confused he rage quit and abandoned a free clear. The nightmare mount dropped too lmao.

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That's what I figured, but thank you for clarifying.

The first time I went into Garuda Ex, the triangle method was the way we did it and it seemed obvious to me given that Garuda HM employed the same strategy and SE has had a strong tendency to design their fights to build on previously learned mechanics. That coupled with the mechanics of Downburst... it just seems like a no brainer. Honestly, you could even argue that the swap mechanic was implemented so that the positions of Garuda and Suparna could be managed during the tornado phase while leaving provoke available for the spiny plume.

As I mentioned before, both Monk and Dragoon are cross classed with Marauder and both classes also have a few class skills that would serve no purpose other than proxy tanking. I simply don't believe that SE would design these classes this way unless they intended them to serve as off tanks in certain content.