Constructive opinion on Paladin and Warrior

So I have both my paladin and my warrior to about the same level. (Lvl 46 ATM) I have looked around Google and forums to see what's better for parties and what's good for end-game tanking but for the most part it's all pre 2.1. I'm not trying to find a way to start a fanboy argument between paladin and warriors. Just want to get an idea of why a party might pick one tank over another and what you would prefer when entering end-game primal fights and dungeons or raids.

In the end you're just helping this indecisive crazy help make up his mind on which tank to main. I appreciate all your opinions and hope this thread can help some other that are on the fence like myself. Thanks in advance!

As much as it doesn't help your situation, the tank you want depends on the fight.

Each tank has things it does somewhat better. In situations where there is large spike damage every 20-30 sec or so (mountain buster, death sentence), WAR is going to shine. On the other hand, if there is sustained damage or damage from multiple sources (caduceus, turn 4 adds) PLD is the star of the show.

This is not to say that the two can't trade positions successfully, it just means that WAR and PLD are actually fairly well balanced. As a result, for 2 tank scenarios it is best to bring both.

My opinion, be a tank: not a warrior, not a paladin, a tank. This means you main both.

I started out playing as a WAR. Leveled PLD just to know what it's like, I'm glad I did because it made my WAR tanking better and vice versa (playing healer and dps would help also, but let's not go crazy here xD).

I came to learn that the current content does not favor a tank in general. There are of course opinions such as WAR is a better MT on Twintania 'cause of inner beast, PLD's do better in T4 'cause of hollowed ground etc.. These are all true, the abilities for the particular encounter does help. Is it mandatory? Oh hells no.. I detest the opinions put up by the community, so please know that either tank can tank everything just fine. It's often a matter of taste as well.

Having both just gives you way more options. As for gearing: you'll have to decide on which one you'll spend your myths first. If luck is on your side, you'll have some Allagan drops which are interchangeable. I would not worry about BiS stuff too much, that's something for later. Just get as much i90 as you can and try to figure out what to go with first if you have a solid t1-4 going on.

As already stated both have moments where they shine, each fight is situational. Now I started to play paladin as my 1st tank option it is alright, but with the 2.1 buff to warrior I like warrior more, however it just depends on playstyle and what you feel more comfortable with. Both are nice and most parties will just take any tank since they are in a shorter supply.

Here's a pretty simple breakdown:

Paladin Advantages:
- Can mitigate bursts of high damage over a long period of time. An easy example is Ifrit EX, where every time he breathes on you he'll add a debuff stack which increases his damage dealt, which will get worse and worse as he constantly breathes down your neck. Paladin can pop a cooldown which lasts x seconds, then another that lasts x seconds. Paladin's are kings in this situation.
- Access to Hallowed Ground. Become completely invincible to (most) damage for 10s. Healers basically don't have to touch you for 10s, which is a godsend in Coil.
- Useful utility! Particularly Stoneskin, Silence, GCD stun, Cover, and a STR down debuff from RoH.

Warrior Advantages:
- Has a 6s 20% damage reduction ability that is available every (maximum) 23s. This, along with the constant 10% damage reduction debuff from Storm's Path, allows for really solid mitigation for bosses that hit really hard once ever x seconds. Examples would be Titan HM/EX and Twintania, which really suite the Warrior's toolkit for MTing.
- More damage while tanking! With access to Berserk, Unchained and Internal Release you'll be able to boost a solid amount of DPS for someone with a 20% DR from their tanking stance. It's not massively more than a Paladin, but it's a nice solid chunk.
- Different Utility! Storm's Eye and Storm's Path are both amazingly useful, especially as an off tank where you'll be able to keep both up 100% of the time.

The best 8 man party has a PLD and a WAR as they both bring different things to the party. Any 4 man content can be done with either - WAR has a slight advantage in that it can keep AOE aggro like it's nothing, but that's about it. Whichever seems more fun, play that. I have both at 50 and both can do T5, but I never play PLD simply because it's not as fun as WAR to me (and my co-tank is a PLD so that helps~). If you want to get both to 50, though, you should - they both share Darklight and Allagan armor, so you basically gear them up at the same time and use whichever one your group needs.

Since you already have your CNJ at 15, start with Paladin. Also, not sure if you're wondering or not, but I'd rank tanks this way in pvp:

MRD>PLD>WAR>GLD (this could change with future arenas/objectives).

Man you guys are awesome! Your comments have been SOOOO helpful. I appreciate it! Have a great community like this is double bonus lol. I don't always say thanks but when I do, I don't. Stay frosty my friends. Haha jk. In all seriousness thank you!

i have both at 50 and both used for engame tanking (cleared everything with both except for t5).. paladin is better than warriors in almost every aspect except aoe threat generation

I have both a WAR and a PLD in full ilvl 90 gear. I've been killing Twintania long before 2.1 came out so I have a decent amount of experience as a tank.

Even after the WAR buffs, PLD still mitigates damage better. They're better as endurance tanks and they're better at preventing large burst damage. To top it all off they have hallowed ground as their ultimate "Oh crap" move. Even though it's on a longer CD than Holmgang, it's still way more powerful.

WAR can definitely tank all end game content. PLD will be used mainly for progression groups and to make hard hitting bosses significantly easier. For mass pull speed runs in lower level dungeons, PLD will still be preferred due to the mitigation. Also, the large amounts of AOE threat WAR can produce is meaningless as long as PLD can hold AOE threat fine (which they can).

Everything I've said so far has made WAR sound inferior but that's far from the truth. If more bosses are introduced that circumvent parry/block (ADS and Ultima come to mind) the PLD advantage will take a dump in terms of mitigation. I doubt this will be the case for the most important fights but it seems like it might be the case for a few lower tier fights (we'll have to see).

WAR simply surpasses PLD as an off tank in almost all situations (except for maybe Titan because Hallowed Ground and Tempered Will + Sentinel are completely over powered for adds). WAR utility makes them extremely viable off tanks (Storm's Path is a huge help in a lot of fights, especially TT). WAR also does a LOT more damage than PLD. In the current content, WAR can get away with using DPS jewellery as an OT since nothing that has to be OT'd warrants a full tank set. Even if you have a PLD do the same, WAR does a lot more burst damage than PLD. So it's more ideal for mechanics like conflags and Dreadknights on TT. Some people will argue that a PLD OT is better for Dreadknights because of the longer stun, but once your group is comfortable with the fight, Dreadknights will drop almost right after they spawn, so they extra stunning is pointless. You'd rather have the extra burst damage from WAR to waste less time on DKs and kill TT faster.

WAR is a very powerful OT and completely capable of MT'ing all the current end game content. PLD will just be preferred for progression groups and groups that need the little extra mitigation PLD provides for end game encounters like TT. Aside from that, I find WAR to be a lot more engaging to play. You'd probably have more fun on a WAR unless you're a mitigation freak like me, in which case you'd prefer PLD.

The FF14 team has done a great job balancing the two tank classes, making them both viable. You should just keep in mind that if you decide to go WAR, due to popular community opinion you will be side lined as MT for PLD, and be slotted into the OT role in most groups.

The biggest advantage for WAR is once u learn fights u will always have a CD up for spike damage. Inner Beast is very very useful when used properly. Otherwise Paladins have a large CD suite that really does quite well in any situation

They are the same now, one can be better than other in specific contents, but overall they are the same. Stupid people will probably prefer pld because they are retarded and still playing the 2.0 (it still happens), and even more stupid people will prefer war because 8700 hpololol cit. but everyone else won't choose the one instead of the other(unless there are already a pld/war in an 8man party), so choose the one that you like more.

@Gangaloo
true that ;D, except most T5 group will prefer have War MT Twin and PLD OT (mainly on Dread phase.) that one of the very few that PLD excel at OTing LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remn

@Gangaloo
true that ;D, except most T5 group will prefer have War MT Twin and PLD OT (mainly on Dread phase.) that one of the very few that PLD excel at OTing LOL

---

I outlined that part... the only groups that would prefer a PLD OT during dread phase are the ones that aren't dropping the dreads within a few seconds after a 3 second stun. After you get good at that phase having a PLD OT makes the fight harder.

I think MTing Twin is more reliant on what your healers prefer. Since WAR gets a Rampart for every DS, coupled with other cooldowns he can use whenever they need to be used, they can be pretty solid at keeping stable. PLD will sometimes have a DS where they can't use a cooldown, so the healers will need to be more aware with Virus/E4E. The advantage of PLD is that they'll take less damage over the course of the fight with a tiny bit of communication between the healers and the advantage of WAR is they'll always take stable damage from every big hit. Hallowed Ground is sort of irrelevant as it's useful for both MTing and OTing (eating the liquid hells as MT and eating them as OT). Single tanking, I actually think WAR excels as they have higher EHP (Storm's Path~) and take consistent burst damage, whereas a PLD really only has the advantage of being able to Hallowed during the last phase if targeted with Liquid Hells. While useful, I think consistency and more overall health is better... plus WAR would be able to pump out more DPS in tanking stance. All that said, either could do either job and it's really just apples and oranges. The advantage of PLD MT in any content currently in the game is slight, and the advantage of WAR MT in any content currently in the game is slight.

@SpookyGhost

Not sure what you mean by higher EHP with Storm's Path. If your WAR is OT'ing PLD receives the benefit of Storm's Path as well.

Quote:

---

i have both at 50 and both used for engame tanking (cleared everything with both except for t5).. paladin is better than warriors in almost every aspect except aoe threat generation

---

@Abigs
You obviously dont know how to play your warrior. Just because its 50 doesnt mean you know how to play it. Judging from your reply, I can tell you dont understand how different the tanking methods are between the two. Keep your posts constructive as the OP stated he doesnt want any fan boy stuff happening here, so take it elsewhere.

War takes more skill to play and master, which is why you will see a lot more bad war than bad pld. Paladin is easier to learn and play because their mitagtion abilities are a lot more forgiving if you time them wrong or too soon, also War is more gear intensive because their mitigation comes from their gear where a PLD mitigation is based on incoming damage. But that is by no means saying one is better than the other. Both are on equal grounds hands down. Play with what you feel more comfortable and enjoy more. At this point it is personal preference and both have Good and annoying things about the class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gangaloo

Not sure what you mean by higher EHP with Storm's Path. If your WAR is OT'ing PLD receives the benefit of Storm's Path as well.

---

Single tank. With WAR/PLD the PLD ends up with more eHP, with just WAR or just PLD the WAR ends up with more eHP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gangaloo

I have both a WAR and a PLD in full ilvl 90 gear. I've been killing Twintania long before 2.1 came out so I have a decent amount of experience as a tank.

Even after the WAR buffs, PLD still mitigates damage better. They're better as endurance tanks and they're better at preventing large burst damage. To top it all off they have hallowed ground as their ultimate "Oh crap" move. Even though it's on a longer CD than Holmgang, it's still way more powerful.

WAR can definitely tank all end game content. PLD will be used mainly for progression groups and to make hard hitting bosses significantly easier. For mass pull speed runs in lower level dungeons, PLD will still be preferred due to the mitigation. Also, the large amounts of AOE threat WAR can produce is meaningless as long as PLD can hold AOE threat fine (which they can).

Everything I've said so far has made WAR sound inferior but that's far from the truth. If more bosses are introduced that circumvent parry/block (ADS and Ultima come to mind) the PLD advantage will take a dump in terms of mitigation. I doubt this will be the case for the most important fights but it seems like it might be the case for a few lower tier fights (we'll have to see).

WAR simply surpasses PLD as an off tank in almost all situations (except for maybe Titan because Hallowed Ground and Tempered Will + Sentinel are completely over powered for adds). WAR utility makes them extremely viable off tanks (Storm's Path is a huge help in a lot of fights, especially TT). WAR also does a LOT more damage than PLD. In the current content, WAR can get away with using DPS jewellery as an OT since nothing that has to be OT'd warrants a full tank set. Even if you have a PLD do the same, WAR does a lot more burst damage than PLD. So it's more ideal for mechanics like conflags and Dreadknights on TT. Some people will argue that a PLD OT is better for Dreadknights because of the longer stun, but once your group is comfortable with the fight, Dreadknights will drop almost right after they spawn, so they extra stunning is pointless. You'd rather have the extra burst damage from WAR to waste less time on DKs and kill TT faster.

WAR is a very powerful OT and completely capable of MT'ing all the current end game content. PLD will just be preferred for progression groups and groups that need the little extra mitigation PLD provides for end game encounters like TT. Aside from that, I find WAR to be a lot more engaging to play. You'd probably have more fun on a WAR unless you're a mitigation freak like me, in which case you'd prefer PLD.

The FF14 team has done a great job balancing the two tank classes, making them both viable. You should just keep in mind that if you decide to go WAR, due to popular community opinion you will be side lined as MT for PLD, and be slotted into the OT role in most groups.

---

I agree with most of this post, except that WAR does a great job of aoe hate, IMO better than PLD. You have 2 resources to hold hate, TP and MP (Flash up to 3-4 times max isn't great but helps a ton in tp stretched situations or to start a pull), The main benefit being they hold hate while doing damage. Kills will always end quicker with mass aoe with a WAR tank, assuming the healers are good. Warrior has excellent short term mitigation that can easily last for a pull, Vengeance returns damage, and overpower does 150-200+ per hit depending on mob, That is a lot of damage to end a kill quicker. If a WHM is present and stunning things with holy too, the fights go much faster. PLD may mitigate more, but WAR will kill AoE groups faster with an equally skilled group.

Also, Tank stance or not, WAR does not surpass PLD by an extreme degree in dps, with i88 on both jobs and equal gear/stats, I am doing about 20-30 dps difference at most (DPS sets and tank sets), WAR being on top by a small margin in hours of testing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Single tank. With WAR/PLD the PLD ends up with more eHP, with just WAR or just PLD the WAR ends up with more eHP.

---

Actually, with WAR/PLD, they end up with the exact same eHP because the only difference in passive eHP is Storm's Path v. Rage of Halone. Once you have both present (assuming your OT PLD is actually willing to throw out an RoH combo every 20 seconds or so), they're both benefiting from both debuffs so the eHP is entirely equal.

Also, if you're talking eHP as it applies to those situations in which eHP is the valid marker of performance (i.e. burst damage), WAR is always going to have more eHP because they (should) have Inner Beast's 20% DR on top of Defiance's 25% +hp (effectively 156.25% baseline eHP) whereas PLD simply has the 20% DR from Shield Oath (effectively 125% baseline eHP). The only scenario where a WAR is going to have less eHP for those situations that care about eHP than a PLD is the one where the WAR in at the helm isn't a good WAR.

What *does* make the two tanks equal is the mean mitigation. PLD has 20% DR and blocking. WAR has Inner Beast, self healing, and Defiance's 20% +healing. In those scenarios where eHP *isn't* the primary factor in survivability or you cannot predict when bursts are coming (of which there are none yet), PLD edges out WAR because the PLD contributors are more effective over time; Defiance's constant contribution of 20% +healing is worth less than Shield Oath's 20% DR and the blocking contributes more than Inner Beast when averaged over time (the self healing is a marginal contributor that most often ends up generating overhealing than actually being an appreciable contributor, especially in those situations in which tank survivability is actually an issue).

Basically, WAR is the king of burst damage tanking while PLD is the kind of tanking constant high damage.

The other major balancing factor is WAR's higher damage (SE debuff beefing up PLD damage on top of the already ~10-20% higher DPS WAR manages) compared to PLD's higher utility (silence, non-CD stun, stoneskin). The question of effect of gear upon their relative performance is a non-issue. The difference in performance is negligible; the self healing that WAR gets from higher damage (which is the only gear dependent difference between WAR and PLD survivability) means next to nothing because it's such a small contribution to end survivability (especially in high damage scenarios where self healing doesn't matter because it doesn't scale).

As a SCH I prefer healing WARs. Their constant healing plus from defiance makes me shields bigger and when I crit a single shield can eat almost all of a death sentence. On WHM I prefer PLDs because of their more constant damage mitigation I can let Regen do most of my healing for me.

Tanking wise, I am still not 50 PLD but I think I prefer being a WAR. Other than loving having a giant axe I simply can't stand that PLD "really" only has one rotation, and hearing RoH over and over and over gets really annoying, the BB rotation for WAR has less harsh sounds and isn't nearly as bad to listen to plus being able to throw in a SE or SP rotation changes things up a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

As a SCH I prefer healing WARs. Their constant healing plus from defiance makes me shields bigger and when I crit a single shield can eat almost all of a death sentence.

---

This is why my static group prefers a WAR to mt twin. War is just better at mitigating the possibility of the debuff because of their huge hp pool(ss from whm is more effective on War) and ofc the sch galvanize. With the debuffs on twin, inner beast and ss with gal, if the death sentence hits for 0, then the debuff cannot be applied.Also, with WAR having the defiance hp healing bonus, it allows healers the ability to cure through the infirmity as if it does not exist. Sure paladin can MT twin, but WAR just makes it easier. Paladin caught with low hp and debuff, prepare to die unless you have convalescence, or whm has devine seal or benediction, or sch has lustrates(if they don't, it becomes worthless). Again all hypothetical situations but WAR just seems to have the upperhand because of that 1 infirmity debuff. Besides paladin's 20% defense buff with shield oath means next to nothing with a war that knows when to inner beast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by abzoluut

I came to learn that the current content does not favor a tank in general. There are of course opinions such as WAR is a better MT on Twintania 'cause of inner beast, PLD's do better in T4 'cause of hollowed ground etc.. These are all true, the abilities for the particular encounter does help. Is it mandatory? Oh hells no.. I detest the opinions put up by the community, so please know that either tank can tank everything just fine. It's often a matter of taste as well.

---

Emphasized the important bits.

I'd say play what you like, OP. Look at the mechanics of WAR and PLD and then give it a go at which you like most. I'm a sucker for straightforward design, so PLD was right up my alley (that it plays like a prot warrior from WoW, which was my main over there sort of helped...). Some feel better playing WAR. Really is a matter of taste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosys

@Abigs
You obviously dont know how to play your warrior. Just because its 50 doesnt mean you know how to play it. Judging from your reply, I can tell you dont understand how different the tanking methods are between the two. Keep your posts constructive as the OP stated he doesnt want any fan boy stuff happening here, so take it elsewhere.

War takes more skill to play and master, which is why you will see a lot more bad war than bad pld. Paladin is easier to learn and play because their mitagtion abilities are a lot more forgiving if you time them wrong or too soon, also War is more gear intensive because their mitigation comes from their gear where a PLD mitigation is based on incoming damage. But that is by no means saying one is better than the other. Both are on equal grounds hands down. Play with what you feel more comfortable and enjoy more. At this point it is personal preference and both have Good and annoying things about the class.

---

nope

warrior OT is good because of debuff for bosses however warrior OT cannot out dps a pally OT since warriors will lose a lot of health if they take off defiance (turning on defiance only increases your max hp but doesnt heal it)
pally OT has access to stoneskin which helps tons especially on spike damage situations (mountain buster, flame breaths (from 2 going to 3) etc. on a lesser note, pally OT has access to cover aswell i know its very situational but its still something to toss in there

wipes happen more often due to spiky situations rather than throughput since healing in this game is pretty strong with basic heals at i90 land for 1k+ hp.. and a pally MT can also predictively stoneskin himself on burst situations just like how warriors use inner beast (do take note that if a warrior goes for debuffs, his aggro doesnt benefit from BB while a pally only has halone for both his aggro and debuff)

warrior OT can be good if your composition has drg and bard for the pierce buff
also do remember that a warriors debuff storm path only affects 1 target (or the target it is applied on).. so ambient damage from anything else will not get reduced by 10% while a paladin will always constantly mitigate damage from all sources

i am not fanboying since my main was a warrior, but ive seen the difference of the 2 classes.. pally is better for progression and progression has always been more important than farm content

Abigs you fail to realize some very important things.

First of all a good WAR will mitigate more spike damage than a paladin. Such is the nature of well used Inner Beast.
Second WAR's debuffs will mitigate magical damage, something a paladin cannot do. A WAR's self healing (though not as crazy as 2.0) can also help mitigate magic damage by restoring HP, something a Paladin can only do very minorly (cure, bloodbath).
Third A WAR can arrange his CD's so that he can very consistently be have damage reduction up. In fights like Ultima or Twintania where the MT takes a beating the whole fight through, this is very very helpful. A PLD must rely on the rng of his block/parry/dodge.
Fourth you are wrong about PLD's doing more DPS, and you should take off defiance when you are not actively tanking, unless it's T2 where swaps happen frequently.
Fifth as for your comment about the BB, you can work in BB around your debuff combos, but as people have said before, it takes skill to WAR properly.
Sixth as for progression my FC has a group (1 PLD, 1 WAR) and they started progression on and cleared T4 in one night and made it to divebombs on T5 the next.

You are wrong, sir.

Personal feelings? I like warrior better at this point. Given my pld is only 40 still, but warrior just... Looks and feels more like something i would enjoy. They have a wee bit more of the feral side of actions, animation wise, that i like. As far as all the other discussions go with this thread, i will leave them to butt heads, i play DPS mainly so i haven't really sit down and crunched numbers, plus only exp as warrior up to T2. Looks wise though, you cant go wrong with warrior. I mean you're swinging around a giant axe. A GIANT AXE, PEOPLE!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Abigs you fail to realize some very important things.

First of all a good WAR will mitigate more spike damage than a paladin. Such is the nature of well used Inner Beast.
Second WAR's debuffs will mitigate magical damage, something a paladin cannot do. A WAR's self healing (though not as crazy as 2.0) can also help mitigate magic damage by restoring HP, something a Paladin can only do very minorly (cure, bloodbath).
Third A WAR can arrange his CD's so that he can very consistently be have damage reduction up. In fights like Ultima or Twintania where the MT takes a beating the whole fight through, this is very very helpful. A PLD must rely on the rng of his block/parry/dodge.
Fourth you are wrong about PLD's doing more DPS, and you should take off defiance when you are not actively tanking, unless it's T2 where swaps happen frequently.
Fifth as for your comment about the BB, you can work in BB around your debuff combos, but as people have said before, it takes skill to WAR properly.
Sixth as for progression my FC has a group (1 PLD, 1 WAR) and they started progression on and cleared T4 in one night and made it to divebombs on T5 the next.

You are wrong, sir.

---

1) pallies have rampart, foresight (except for the cd timer), a better convalescence, sentinel (40% vs 30% from vengeance differs in duration tho), and hollowed ground.. for every 8 gcds that innerbeast needs, pallies can make it up with clearly superior self buffs. Thrill of battle is really really good especially if synergized with shielding (ss, galvanize), and featherfoot evasion (ok but makes you spiky when taking hits). holmgang is really close to garbage and is only really good if you have a WHM synergized with a timed benediction after the 5 second effect

looking at everything as a whole, pally mitigation cooldowns are overall better than what a warrior has.. if IB was off the gcd, then yes probably it would be easier to mitigate spiky damage as a warrior.. but currently, you'll have to have 'dead periods' to wait it out just to time IB properly or you get hit by a truck

2) wars debuffs will only mitigate 10% damage constantly, while a pally has 20% damage mitigation passively.. wars cannot have IB up all the time.. 8 gcds is about 20 seconds (you can opt to use berserk for the last wrath stack at times). war self healing from IB is marginal.. about 500 tops? second wind heals for almost the same.. both wars and pally have access to bloodbath (where pally shield oath is -20% damage and wars having -25% damage). besides, with i80+ healers you're more often overhealed anyway

3) pallies have as much 'long' cds than what war does and looking at it at a mitigation perspective, pallies have it better. (sorry if im repeating my answer to #1)
pally: rampart (mitigation), foresight (mitigation), sentinel (mitigation), convalescence (healer buff), hallowed ground (mitigation), awareness (mitigation), bulwark (mitigation), tempered will (situational)
wars: foresight (mitigation), convalescence (healer buff), thrill of battle (eHP), vengeance (mitigation), holmgang (situational), featherfoot (eHP), second wind (eHP), awareness (mitigation)

4) if you take defiance off, you lose that health and you lose all your stacks, you cannot just turn it back on and pop IB once the boss does his skills.. you'll need 8 gcds to ramp up your wrath stacks once again.. a war w/o defiance gets rid of 25% damage debuff while a pally switching to sword oath gets rid of 20% damage debuff and gains 10% more damage from autos since theres no penalty to life or losing stacks what-so-ever


5) SP is 30 sec debuff (correct me if im wrong) while an SE is a 15 second debuff.. a warrior combo regardless of ender consumes 3 gcds or 7.5 seconds.. to constantly apply SE you'll need to devote 1 combo every other to SE and you'll need to devote 1 combo every 4 to SP leaving you only 1 BB combo every 4 combos.. simply not enough threat generated for 1 BB combo every 30 secs one of those 2 will have to give. Pally only has halone for debuff, aggro, damage.. no need to plan or budget your gcds there just halone allt he way.
No matter how skilled you are, theres just no way to constantly apply both debuffs, plan for your IB, and still manage to have enough aggro with BB.. you'll have to budget it all around (yes this makes warriors fun to play but at optimal levels this is a clear limitation to the parameters of what a warrior can do)

6) it's been said time and time again that both tanks are overtuned for the content where they both can clear the game.. but we're talking about comparing the differences of 2 tanking classes objectively

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

Also, Tank stance or not, WAR does not surpass PLD by an extreme degree in dps, with i88 on both jobs and equal gear/stats, I am doing about 20-30 dps difference at most (DPS sets and tank sets), WAR being on top by a small margin in hours of testing.

---

Have you tried with maim, se, berserk and unchained? Because when i'm playing with the pld from my static(both full 90) i'm doing much more dps than him

best way to deal the most damage with war (dps) is alternate SE (maim),BB combo while brutal on every off gcd that it is up. you have berserk and should be out of defiance (since wrath stacks+unchained cannot compensate for the 25% dmg debuff)
berserk is your cd for burst

pally should be in sword oath and spam halone combo.. spirits / scorn on every off gcd its up.. spirits will be optimal as OT since its the damage it does scales with your current hitpoints.
fight or flight is your cd for burst

w/o defiance wars will beat pally.. with defiance pally would pull forward.. pally in shield oath wont beat warriors in dps

it depends just really depends on warriors willing to take the penalties/or lack of incentives when taking off defiance.. for twintania p2 this is ok, but for ex primals i dont think its a good idea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Basically, WAR is the king of burst damage tanking while PLD is the kind of tanking constant high damage.

---

I'd have to strongly disagree with this considering in my group's last TT kill I had to call for Virus twice? I'd hardly consider that a big deal. Not to mention that a PLD can stoneskin themselves right before a DS lands. Once a PLD starts pushing towards 600 parry rate with food I've noticed that DS becomes quite negligible as long as a Virus lands for when a major CD isn't up (as I said for myself last kill that was only 2). There's been quite a few times I've taken 0 damage on my PLD from a DS because I blocked the in coming damage with a CD up.

If you rotate your CDs properly on a PLD you really don't have very many cases where you don't have something up to mitigate DS. Also keep in mind that burst damage prevention includes the plummet that comes before DS, which will not always allow IB up for the DS right after as the cast time could let IB drop off. PLD can mitigate BOTH of those attacks a lot better trivializing the in coming burst damage.

Most single tank TT groups use a PLD tank for a reason. While PLD is a lot more forgiving against TT than WAR is in terms of CD usage, an inexperienced PLD is very noticeable. They won't have their CDs up for quite a few DS because they don't know how to rotate them properly. You'd be surprised how much more often a PLD will have his CDs up if he say... hits times a Rampart so it eats both the DS and the Plummet, and has 2 seconds before it drops off right as DS hits him. I see a LOT of PLD new to TT hit their CDs when they see the cast bar start, which is NOT how you're supposed to mitigate the damage (even though it does work).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gangaloo

I'd have to strongly disagree with this considering in my group's last TT kill I had to call for Virus twice?

---

And what does that have to do with WAR v. PLD? Properly played, a WAR has the equivalent of Rampart up for every single burst attack. PLD can't get close to that. Saying that you did Twintania with a PLD and only had to use Virus twice means nothing because you're looking at PLD in a vacuum rather than comparing it to a WAR which is what I was talking about.

Quote:

---

If you rotate your CDs properly on a PLD you really don't have very many cases where you don't have something up to mitigate DS.

---

And if you're using Inner Beast properly, you will *always* have the equivalent of Rampart up for every single DS. A PLD properly rotating CDs is still going to take more damage than a WAR using IB because the WAR will also have their own CDs to use.

Quote:

---

Also keep in mind that burst damage prevention includes the plummet that comes before DS, which will not always allow IB up for the DS right after as the cast time could let IB drop off. PLD can mitigate BOTH of those attacks a lot better trivializing the in coming burst damage.

---

Inner Beast is not the sum total of the WAR burst damage mitigation capability. You've also got Infuriate available every minute to lengthen the IB window for another 6 seconds. As to the plummet, it's not burst damage if there is more than 6 seconds between because that's more than enough time for healers to top the tank off; basically, if it's not damage that fits within a single IB, it's not burst damage.

If a WAR uses IB and their CD suite, they'll trivialize regular burst damage much more effectively than a PLD can.

Quote:

---

Most single tank TT groups use a PLD tank for a reason.

---

They bring a PLD for single tank Twintania because of Hallowed Ground. It has nothing to do with PLD being better at mitigating burst damage and everything to do with PLD being able to not take damage for 10 seconds when the RNG decides that it's time to screw over the tank.

Your entire argument for PLD being better at mitigating burst damage scenarios looks only at PLD. It completely ignores WAR, which means that your argument is entirely invalid. A properly played WAR is always going to be the better tank for regular burst damage fights because of Inner Beast. Even if a PLD has the comparatively stronger CD suite, WAR still has a CD suite on top of Inner Beast and Inner Beast is simply insanely good for predictable burst damage. PLD can do well in those scenarios (which is all you're saying), but WAR is simply better.

@Abigs

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself. Every post you reply with is filled with ignorance and shows exactly how much of a bad player you are. You dont even know the basic mechanics of Warrior buffs and debuffs. Go look at you tool tips and read them.

@Kitru
I agree completely.

This thread didnt take long to no longer be constructive. "He thinks his class is better, I will call him dumb and tell him he is wrong because I do not agree". Both tanks are pretty balanced, if not, the difference is negligible, pick one and practice it, master it, and youll be fine. You wont waste time leveling or gearing either one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosys

@Abigs

Just stop, you are embarrassing yourself. Every post you reply with is filled with ignorance and shows exactly how much of a bad player you are. You dont even know the basic mechanics of Warrior buffs and debuffs. Go look at you tool tips and read them.

@Kitru
I agree completely.

---

i have been comparing both classes as objectively and fairly as possible.. i have yet to see an objective reply from you to any of my arguments so if you're just here to post butthurt crap pls stop posting or stop addressing me because you are the one thats not contributing to this thread constructively

@Kitru

Sorry to say it but the plummet damage DOES matter especially when healers are trying to keep you topped up (especially during twister phase when one healer gets locked).

Yes they do bring a PLD for hallowed but PLD still has better damage mitigation. Especially since block is so powerful (and you start to notice it around 580+ block rate). 20% IB for every DS is nice and everything but PLD can easily cycle between Rampart, Sentinel, and Bulwark. With an onion shield I've yet to not have bulwark block DS. You should look into tanking as a PLD with that shield. Despite popular opinion saying that it sucks, it's actually really good for preventing spike damage and smoothing out burst.

The 20% IB for DS becomes a redundant argument when a geared PLD with high block rate can mitigate the same, if not more in coming burst damage. On top of PLD CDs, they also have a high chance to block 20% extra damage with onion shield quite frequently. There's been quite a few times I've taken a grand total of 0 damage because of this from DS.

With my current CD rotation I only need to call for 2 viruses, which is the only saving grace I see for the Warrior vs PLD argument. Also, I'm not ignoring Warrior and only talking about PLD, there's just no reason to talk about Warriors abilities. They have IB and Vengeance to help prevent burst. Don't see the big deal when my PLD has a major CD up for every DS except for 2. For those 2 I can just stoneskin myself and ask for virus. I'll take about 2k-3k damage at most.

People don't one tank with PLD just because of hallowed. They one tank with it because it's a stronger mitigation tank. People also one tank Titan EX for this same reason, and you can't have hallowed up for both 6+ stacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimura410

This thread didnt take long to no longer be constructive. "He thinks his class is better, I will call him dumb and tell him he is wrong because I do not agree". Both tanks are pretty balanced, if not, the difference is negligible, pick one and practice it, master it, and youll be fine. You wont waste time leveling or gearing either one.

---

In a way you are right. Both tanks are capable of MT'ing end game content comfortably. Unfortunately, just saying one edges out another will rile some people up regardless of whether or not it is true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Abigs

i have been comparing both classes as objectively and fairly as possible.. i have yet to see an objective reply from you to any of my arguments so if you're just here to post butthurt crap pls stop posting or stop addressing me because you are the one thats not contributing to this thread constructively

---

You have not been comparing both classes objectively and fairly because you do not have full knowledge of them. You are ignorant to most of Warrior abilities and some Paladin skills based on your posts. I did have a VERY constructive reply to the OP. You even quoted me lol, or do you not remember? Im calling you out because you are ignorant and posting false information which is extremely toxic to the community. Last thing we need is another bad tank(you). As I recall, others have called you out on your stupidity, not just me. Again... Learn to read your tool tips and replies before you post them. Im not replying to you anymore, you are way beyond reach of playing a tank correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosys

you are ignorant and posting false information which is extremely toxic to the community. Last thing we need is another bad tank(you). As I recall, others have called you out on your stupidity, not just me. Again... Learn to read your tool tips and replies before you post them. Im not replying to you anymore, you are way beyond reach of playing a tank correctly.

---

butthurt much? really if you are to call anyone out then at least provide any specifics, you make claims and spew gibberish without basis. if you are NOT toxic as you claim to be then point out and specify these 'misinformation' and correct them.. but from your first reply to me until your last you haven't done anything than just hate and name call without really addressing any of my points in any of my posts.. the problem is people like you and your butthurt army will continue to destroy the spirit of these forums which is to provide objective information for people to debate about by being whiny and emo on anything they disagree with (even w/o basis) How the hell do you think warriors improved so much in post 2.1 without people pointing out facts/experiences etc. and arguing on it? if the forums we're full of people like you then warriors will continue to have been a garbage class

i played both warrior and paladin at end game and have geared them both (granted they do have the same gear outside mytho) so i definitely am entitled to say what i feel, know, experienced with tanking for both classes. what about you? you dont even know jack about your own class then you come here to to cry on people who wants to make both classes closer to each other? gtfo

this is a constructive thread, and you have 0 constructive posts so dont bother replying because i doubt any of your replies will have an ounce of substance other than butthurt QQ