PvP Balancing

Balancing each job would be an incredible task. One that I'm not sure could be achieved.

In order to balance and add the desire to play PvP, what needs to change is the objective.

Kill the other team requires perfect balance of party/jobs. However if the goal was not to kill the team and rather to infiltrate the enemy castle and take down the NPC King while having to meet certain objectives along the way.

I think we would find PvP a lot more balanced in general without directly attacking job specific abilities.

Discuss

PvP balancing screws up PvE 100% of the time. Look at WoW for example, every season theres a pve spec that is completely useless due to PvP blalancing.

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Originally Posted by Jonny_Tapas

Balancing each job would be an incredible task. One that I'm not sure could be achieved.

In order to balance and add the desire to play PvP, what needs to change is the objective.

Kill the other team requires perfect balance of party/jobs.

However if the goal was not to kill the team and rather to infiltrate the enemy castle and take down the NPC King while having to meet certain objectives along the way.

I think we would find PvP a lot more balanced in general without directly attacking job specific abilities.

Discuss

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Kill the other team requires perfect balance of party/jobs

-other team are players
-you are a player

What does that make this?
player vs player


However if the goal was not to kill the team and rather to infiltrate the enemy castle and take down the NPC King while having to meet certain objectives along the way.

-NPC King.... not a player
-Objectives..... not players
-you are a player
-NPC = a term for non-players

What does that make this?
player vs NPC




I'm sorry for being an ass but suggesting that the solution to make PVP balanced is to make it not PVP is beyond comprehension. Capture the flag or resource control is about as far as you can go without making it not about pvp. Since theres a 99% chance this is based on WoW lets use a WoW example.

AV is a huge map with each team controlling half the map along with various objectives.. Goal? Kill the enemy NPC general (or king in your example which is why I think your using this map as an example)

Early release (I took a break from EQ and played WoW until the 1st expansion) How did these matches go? Each raid team battled it out in a tug of war style battle until one overcame the other.... took hours sometimes.

What it devolved into? Each team runs past the other (not attacking each other) and turns it into a PVE dps race between the 2 teams to see who can kill the other's general 1st. THIS IS NOT PVP




The way they are going about it works fine. Give pvp only abilities which allows them to balance things out without changing PvE. I can only assume they will add more and more abilities as time goes on eventually making your standard pvp rotation differ enough from your pve rotation that they can balance one without changing the other.

I do agree with Moheeheeko's statement though if they aren't careful they will screw PVE trying to make what amounts to a mini game (pvp.. I enjoy it but that is what it is.. this game is PVE with PVP thrown in not the other way around) "more balanced".

IMO pvp is pretty dang balanced as it sits. The biggest problem now is the difference in gear which will be addressed when they bracket it. I don't walk into a match see X class and say "nope I'm screwed time to give up" Which was often the case in WoW/Rift.. there were simply too many rock, paper, scissors situations. FFXIV doesn't have any really hell if anything in a 1v1 situation heals prolly reign supreme due to being able to outlast the rest assuming all else is equal.

They are adding other types of PvP they want to release later on. Frontlines for example. This particular PvP content is suppose to be a simple arena style. Are you suggesting a second event or replacing the existing one?

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

I'm sorry for being an ass but suggesting that the solution to make PVP balanced is to make it not PVP is beyond comprehension. Capture the flag or resource control is about as far as you can go without making it not about pvp.

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I understood his idea to be similar to capture the flag but instead it would be kill the king? I guess that might work. Your team has to protect the king instead of the flag.

Team vs. team would be more fun in a bigger and maybe more complex arena with random placed items that you could pick up during battle.

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Originally Posted by Moheeheeko

PvP balancing screws up PvE 100% of the time. Look at WoW for example, every season theres a pve spec that is completely useless due to PvP blalancing.

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PvP balancing in FFXIV is made so it only affects PvP.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I understood his idea to be similar to capture the flag but instead it would be kill the king? I guess that might work. Your team has to protect the king instead of the flag.

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To summarize what everyone are asking in this topic is pretty much asking S/E to bring back the Ballista.

Team vs Team PvP, KO other side plaeyrs for gate breach, and Siege/Defend the rook to score. Information about FF11 ballista:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ballista

It also comes with a rank system. Isnt this is what you guys asking for?

I also enjoying following from FF11 ballista, especially Provoke part:

Job Abilities
The following job abilities are altered:

■Provoke prevents the victim from targeting anyone except the provoker. Provoke also effectively prevents the victim from casting self-targeting spells, such as Utsusemi. Please note that during any form of Conflict, Provoke can miss a target.
■Steal and Mug steal Petras (if there are any) from the target.
■Charm, Gauge, and Tame have no effect whatsoever.
■Flee duration is extended.
Melee
■Maximum melee range is increased to allow for hitting opponents who are running away.
■Weapon Skill damage is reduced.
Magic
■Players gradually build a resistance to most enfeebling magic, as well as Lullaby.
■Sleep is limited to a 45-second duration.
■Magic damage is reduced.

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Originally Posted by lololink

PvP balancing in FFXIV is made so it only affects PvP.

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Except there's precedence to show this isn't true. YoshiP SAID that, but later changed his mind.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I understood his idea to be similar to capture the flag but instead it would be kill the king? I guess that might work. Your team has to protect the king instead of the flag.

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If you continued reading..

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Since theres a 99% chance this is based on WoW lets use a WoW example.

AV is a huge map with each team controlling half the map along with various objectives.. Goal? Kill the enemy NPC general (or king in your example which is why I think your using this map as an example)

Early release (I took a break from EQ and played WoW until the 1st expansion) How did these matches go? Each raid team battled it out in a tug of war style battle until one overcame the other.... took hours sometimes.

What it devolved into? Each team runs past the other (not attacking each other) and turns it into a PVE dps race between the 2 teams to see who can kill the other's general 1st. THIS IS NOT PVP

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Except there's precedence to show this isn't true. YoshiP SAID that, but later changed his mind.

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Nothing about the arcanist changes effect PVE. Irrelevant changes were made and is likely these changes were made over other obvious solutions such as preventing precasting of Aetherflow before a fight to prevent people from basically entering a fight with 6 stacks.

That Kill the King

I loved that Battlefield in WoW.

It is some kind of domination ... just once you defeated certain objectives the opposion team could not take certain points anymore.

I want following versions of PVP in FFXI.

Capture the Moogle/Flag
Domination
King of the Hill
4vs4 improved
8vs8
1vs1
2vs2

and for PVP getting a special PVP spec so you can switch to PVP - Class and have a seperate macro set. *nods nods*
And give Paladin and Warriors useable offensive skills.

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

and for PVP getting a special PVP spec so you can switch to PVP - Class and have a seperate macro set. *nods nods*
And give Paladin and Warriors useable offensive skills.

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PFFT warriors are scary enough already. I'm more scared of them than basically any dps.

Why so in PVP?

srsly why s PVP Warrior for you more fearsome than a skilled monk or bard?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

I also enjoying following from FF11 ballista, especially Provoke part:...

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Ballista would be an example. What I'm suggesting is any PvP type game or games that requires a team of people to complete specific objectives and at the same time defend equal objectives. Focus would be more on strategies of how to best attack and defend against other players, rather than weather or not BLM sleep is OP.

@Zarzak: You may have well wasted a ridiculous amount of time explaining that Soccer is NOT Player vs. Player because the objective is to put the ball in the goal. It's only PvP if they kill each other. Adding objectives to players or teams of players competing, does not remove the PvP aspect in any way.

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

Why so in PVP?

srsly why s PVP Warrior for you more fearsome than a skilled monk or bard?

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It's not really Warrior, it's Marauder. They have the best on-demand burst behind SMN. Multiple damage boosting CDs + Holmgang + Full Swing always forces a healer to use Purify, Attunement, or both. Having a permanent healing debuff helps too.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Team vs. team would be more fun in a bigger and maybe more complex arena with random placed items that you could pick up during battle.

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+1 to this

As example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6QoGEEq_c

Please direct any PvP suggestion or inquiries here, so that the development team can not read it.

I don't bother with pvp for one simple reason, average waiting time 15 min which turns to be over an half hour with reserving instance stuff. (No Thanks!).

To balance PvP they don't have to interact with pve abilities at all, after all pvp abilities re separated to be easy-tweaked without influence on the pve.

What are you talking about PvP not influencing PvE? Shadowbind was turned into a 40 second CD specifically for that. It's a very small, maybe even insignificant change, but it happened. Who knows what else they might start to change when more pvp modes come to play and if it becomes popular?