SMN DPS: Pushing it to the limit

So, my SMN is now full i90 gear, but I find that despite the amount of time I spend working at it I don't know how to push my DPS to the max level. What numbers should I be doing just myself, not including the pet's DPS?

And what kind of "rotations" (I know smn doesn't have a real rotation like other classes) should I be using? How should I be clipping dots? Should I always clip Bio first since it runs out first (what I've been doing) or stick to always doing Bio II > Miasma > Bio? When/how should I pop RS? And should I be keeping Shadowflare up at all times? And what times are the best times to throw that out?

I feel like I'm falling short because I don't have a complete grasp of everything I'm supposed to do 100% of the time. Now I don't think I'm bad, I just wanna know what I should do to be better. Veteran SMNs step up!

I don't claim to be even a veteran at smn but I'll tell you what I think is good.
My opinion is that you should refresh them as they come off, clipping isn't as big a deal anymore and unless you want to watch for the individual tick, best thing would probably be to just get the dot up again asap to keep it ticking.
Before using fester, use Ruin II since fester is off the GCD and you'll do more damage without wasting time. RS directly before applying your first dot so you can get them all up and contagion.
Shadowflare whenever your swiftcast is ready unless you'll need it for raising. Use Ruin II again before casting swiftcast since it's off the GCD and then Shadowflare. You could also cast it at the start of a battle without using swiftcast to make use of the time taken to run to the boss. Also if you can find a safe place, while Ifrit is charging you can cast it where he'll land in the meantime.
Micro manage your pet and its abilities.

While someone is posting on this topic and its still near front page.. Anyone have any handy macros for an up and coming smn as well? i have about 30 spots left for macros, and micromanage pet macros would be wonderful.

There aren't really macros for SMN except maybe one or two...I have this for swiftcast rez.

/miccon "Resurrection"
/ac "Swiftcast" <me>
/ac "Resurrection" <t>

This creates a macro that you just mash to insta rez someone. There's also eye for an eye macros. I have this...

/micon "Eye for an Eye"
/ac "Eye for an Eye" <t>
/ac "Eye for an Eye" <tt>

This macro uses eye for an eye on either your target or your target's target. Usually used when locked onto a mob to target the tank without having to target them.

You could also bind a swiftcast summon macro maybe...

The only time I would suggest casting Bio first is if you are in the process of 'running in' (because it is instant and ON the global cooldown). Otherwise, follow the Bio II > Miasma > Bio rotation. I usually like to refresh these DoTs in order for the sake of simplicity (start when Bio II has 15 seconds left), but if a monster is going to die soon... you can refresh them in the opposite order (Bio > Miasma > Bio II) to keep the dots up *just long enough* for the mob to die. I do this a lot in Garuda Extreme on Chirada... One Bio II > Miasma > Bio rotation is ALMOST enough, so if she's not dead by the time my DoTs are going to wear, I'll throw up Bio... then Miasma... etc.

Shadowflare is most effectively used with adds. I'm pretty sure the slow component has no effect on bosses, but if there is a fight that has no adds or at least not difficult ones to kill... just prioritize it when you know the mob will be there for the full duration of the spell (30 seconds). I like to swiftcast the spell if I trust my party to not need raise from me at any point. If there is ever a point where you are 'waiting' for something to spawn, but you know it is GOING to spawn... you can cast shadowflare regularly without fear. One example that comes to mind is the superbomb phase of Titan Extreme. I'll usually run to the straight south before the superbomb spawns, and drop shadowflare a few seconds before it spawns. Every second helps.

Raging Strikes is most useful for "DPS checks" of the fight. If there is no dps check of the fight, or at least not a really tight one, I'll pop it when I know I'll get its full potential (at least two Festers). In most fights, I'll pop Raging Strikes in the beginning because it will be up by the time I need it again. In Titan hard, I used to save Raging Strikes for the heart... but no one needs to pop all their cooldowns at that point anymore.

The way you can push your DPS to the 'next level' is by paying special attention to what is on the global cooldown and what is not.

For example:

Your main dots (Bio II, Miasma, Bio) are ON the global cooldown.
Fester is not. Neither is any of the pet commands (I'm not talking about your Rouse+Spur+Enkindle... I'm referring to your actual pet commands... such as moving, using Contagion, etc).

To use this to your advantage, here is a typical opener for a fight for me:

Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Raging Strikes > Fester > Contagion (can use while casting) > SC > Shadowflare > Ruin 1 ... until Fester is ready again.

Now here is the REAL trick... my Ruin I takes 2.42 seconds to cast, currently. So, I can get about four Ruin 1s off before Fester is ready again... BUT, due to slight lag in the game, I'll only realistically get three off before Fester is ready... so here is what I do... Three Ruin 1s, one Ruin 2, Fester. This is the fastest way to do damage with this particular situation because Ruin 2 does the damage instantly. While it DOES trigger your gcd... it doesn't matter because Fester is OFF the gcd and so you can use it while waiting for the gcd to be ready again. Then you can continue your usual Ruin 1 spam.

Unless your tank (paladin) is specifically saving flash for hard-hitting abilities (MB in Titan hard for example), there is no reason not to use Ruin 2. While avoiding something, throw off a ruin 2. While running, throw off a Ruin 2. Just remember to keep your 'filler' spell to primarily Ruin 1s, or you'll go OOM.

Finally, Miasma II: very useful against multiple mobs, but the damage from it (10 potency for 15 seconds) only makes sense on single target IF you are using contagion to extend dots. Using the example above, I would use it before Fester so that it is counted on the mob by the time I trigger contagion. Remember that you need to actually be close for it to hit the mob... it's a self-AoE.

The best way to 'maximize' your dps is to learn fights WELL. The better you know a fight, the better you will be about managing your festers and contagions for optimum output. You'll know exactly when to drop shadowflares, extended dots, etc.

I hope this has helped.

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Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Raging Strikes > Fester > Contagion (can use while casting) > SC > Shadowflare > Ruin 1 ... until Fester is ready again.

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This is horrible... Raging strikes after you applied all you dots is really bad. The good opening sequence should go...

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II > Contagion > Ruin II + Fester(or Bane) > Shadowflare > Ruin 1....

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Originally Posted by Azoryl

This is horrible... Raging strikes after you applied all you dots is really bad. The good opening sequence should go...

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II > Contagion > Ruin II + Fester(or Bane) > Shadowflare > Ruin 1....

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How nice of you to insult me in your response. Anyway, I know it seems logical to cast dots first, but I actually had someone parse it once... Unless you can afford to stand absolutely still (that means no dodging whatsoever -- which is extremely rare in extreme modes, exception being garuda), 2x RS buffed Festers will tend to do more damage than one RS Fester + buffed dots. With your way, there is a chance you won't get two buffed festers -- If you time RS + dots + your first fester perfectly, you will literally only have 1-2 seconds to get off your second Fester before RS wears off, and this timing is extremely tight so I prefer to just use it for the two Festers immediately. Then, you can recast your buffed RS dots after (or between) the two Festers without worry, and you'll still get the buffed damage you wanted (you'll have approximately 10 seconds left after both festers to recast your dots with buffs). With my way, you have less of a chance of missing the two buffed Festers (and by that I mean if you have to move or stop at any point while casting the dots after RS, you will not be able to use two buffed festers).

I suppose it sort of depends on gear, though. My crit rate is 510 so the crazy high damage from the high chance of a RS crit fester is way greater than a normal RS dot will parse. So no, my way is not horrible. I implore you to try it and let me know your results, as gear will be a variable in this debate.

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Originally Posted by Azoryl

This is horrible... Raging strikes after you applied all you dots is really bad. The good opening sequence should go...

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II > Contagion > Ruin II + Fester(or Bane) > Shadowflare > Ruin 1....

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This guy knows what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

If you time RS + dots + your first fester perfectly, you will literally only have 1-2 seconds to get off your second Fester before RS wears off, and this timing is extremely tight so I prefer to just use it for the two Festers immediately.

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I have never failed to get 2 festers off in a RS. It doesn't happen, unless you're incredibly clumsy. Or playing on pad I guess.

Raging Strikes > Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio | Fester > Miasma 2 | Swiftcast > Shadowflare > Rouse | Spur > Ruin 2 | Enkindle > Ruin 2 | Fester > Bio + Contagion (raging strikes end)

Shadowflare over ruin always if you know it will run its duration. Ruin 2 weaving and miasma 2 with contagion is cute but it hardly makes a difference, and if mp is tight it can do more harm than good, and usually put to better use making more liberal use of ruin 2 during movement.

Maximize uptime, minimize movement, know when to use cooldowns and aetherflow stacks to get the most out of them. Place pet in good locations so it doesn't die.

It's hard to give good advice on improving dps for SMN without going into specific details for each individual bosses. The basics are stupid simple.

Macros are for lazy people. Lazy people don't top dps.

probably the most important thing about summoner dps is don't let your dots fall off, EVER, and using ruin 2 so you don't leave a lot of ruin damage sitting on the table when you want to use instant casts.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

It's hard to give good advice on improving dps for SMN without going into specific details for each individual bosses. The basics are stupid simple.

Macros are for lazy people. Lazy people don't top dps.

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I agree about macros -- I use 0 macros, except for silence on bard to let people know I've used it and blah blah. Just have extra bars for stuff like SC, Res, etc.

The reason I insist on 'my way' of RS + Festers is because, like your argument with Miasma II, it is pretty negligible whether you cast RS dots before or after doing the two festers (it's not like fester damage is buffed because of dot damage... merely having the dots on is what counts)... and there are fights where you simply won't be able to stand still for a long time. It's less risky to use Festers first, cast buffed dots after. Yes, there are points where you can 'plan' for the timing of knowing you can get all your dots up before festering the first time... but not every player has the fights memorized, and sometimes there are surprises. Either way, the difference in damage is negligible at best -- I just think my way is safer for someone who doesn't have every fight 100% memorized. I didn't take kindly to some dude telling me it was 'horrible' when I was just trying to help someone else out under the assumption that they don't have every fight memorized.

You can't compare clipping halfway duration dots to losing 0.2 seconds on animations that save you mp.

I hope you have the first 20 seconds memorized cause that's when you use an opening.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

How nice of you to insult me in your response. Anyway, I know it seems logical to cast dots first, but I actually had someone parse it once...

I suppose it sort of depends on gear, though. My crit rate is 510 so the crazy high damage from the high chance of a RS crit fester is way greater than a normal RS dot will parse. So no, my way is not horrible. I implore you to try it and let me know your results, as gear will be a variable in this debate.

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Sorry to say but your idea of when to use RS is flawed. You have more than enough time to get all the dots off + 2 festers before raging strikes is over. I personally play on a controller and it's not difficult to do.

Gear has nothing to do with it.

To the OP:

A basic high-damage opening rotation on a single target boss, assuming you have 3 stacks and another aetherflow ready to go, would be something like

(while running into melee range) Obey ~ Rouse --> Spur --> Enkindle then Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> Fester ~ Contagion ~ Miasma II --> Energy Drain --> Swiftcast ~ Shadowflare --> Ruin II (Ruin II until fester is ready again) Fester ~ Ruin II ~ Aetherflow

You don't want to use normal ruin at all during RS, since it will give you less auto-attacks (which are also boosted by RS).

One DPS tip would be to remember to always use Garuda's Aerial Slash *while casting* in an AoE situation, because it can be done simultaneously and there is no reason to wait.
Another tip would be to use Garuda's Contagion *early* (before finishing your dots) so that right as you land Miasma II (or bio in an AoE situation) it triggers and begins the CD as early as possible.

It's not necessarily about having it memorized, but about not having to move while doing that opener. A lot of pug groups I see force you to stack up for the beginning of Titan extreme (despite the arena being huge at that point). If you place your pet and run in immediately, you will still have to move for landslide/weights while casting your opener spells, and as I said... your way, you only have a few seconds between your last fester and when RS ends... Now, if you really wanted to keep the extended duration on the buffed dots (which yes, technically would be more), another safer method would be to use your normal (non-buffed) Bio II > Miasma > Bio > RS > Fester > SF + Fillers... > Fester > re-up dots > Contagion. The dots that were added after the two festers and will still be buffed by RS, and the only loss would be about 10 seconds on your Contagion cooldown, which you likely won't use EXACTLY when it's ready in movement fights anyway, so the 10 second loss is not too big of a deal.

I'll be honest with you -- I lurk these forums a lot, and a lot of people tweak their rotations slightly compared to others and still pull off 300+ dps with their pet, even without 'best in slot' items... and they do things I and other summoners wouldn't necessarily agree with. There is not 'one way' to do something, or every single high-parsing summoner would do the exact same thing. What we're doing now is theory-crafting, and I'm not saying your idea is wrong... Rather, I am defending mine as not being wrong. But these are seriously just negligible preferences... as I have seen no difference in parses (according to people who actually parse me on fights; I don't parse). This is such a small thing to be arguing about when the point of the thread is to help the OP.

One specific piece of advice I forgot to mention is how to be effective at strong SMN dps on an add that you need to down ASAP (example: rocks and conflag). Make sure you have your dots on the main mob first, then Bane those the second the add pops... and fester on the add. Groups with REALLY good dps won't require you to do this, but more often than not you will be the lifesaver with the instant 1k+ hit.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Sorry to say but your idea of when to use RS is flawed. You have more than enough time to get all the dots off + 2 festers before raging strikes is over. I personally play on a controller and it's not difficult to do.

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You have about 2-3 seconds if you wait to *see* Bio before Festering the first time (which I do because otherwise there is a chance you won't get the full damage bonus.. that's the reason I started using RS after Bio in the first place, to save time on the GCD). I play on mouse+keyboard... I don't know why playing on controller would make that harder? I never said it's impossible to pull off two RS festers, but I did say it's harder to pull off IF there is ever a time where you have to move while using it... And that won't always be at the beginning of the fight.

You're all telling me I'm wrong but I'm consistently told I'm outparsing everyone in my party at 300+ dps (plus pet). I don't even parse myself (I think parsers are inherently problematic) or I wouldn't make these claims. People just like to point it out to me. So no, I am not feeling like I am doing something wrong, or at least not something that alters dps by much. I'm going to stop replying to this thread though, because it's getting to the point where it's not helping OP. If OP seriously has damage issues... trust me it is not because of the negligible time at which I am suggesting to pop RS, but they are welcome to follow whoever's advice they like.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

You're all telling me I'm wrong but I'm consistently told I'm outparsing everyone in my party at 300+ dps (plus pet).

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That just means a smn who uses RS+dots correctly will outparse you.

Ryuko why would you fester without dots?

Ive never done that, wondering what it actually does

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Originally Posted by Cons

Ryuko why would you fester without dots?

Ive never done that, wondering what it actually does

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Festering without dots does nothing. It's based on how many dots you have so whatever potency it is *0 dots is 0 damage.
You can find find funny stories of people in Garuda EX that accidentally Fester spiney and feel their heart skip a beat. More to the point, where did Ryuko say to Fester without dots?

I said I wouldn't post anymore but I didn't want anyone thinking I was advocating Fester without dots up. lol

Festering without dots does 0 damage. I forget if it actually says 'miss' or 0, though. I've accidentally done it before. I actually posted a story about it in the "DPS Facepalms" thread... I was in Titan extreme helping some people get the clear, and after hours of doing it... my brain started to melt. I got all my dots up on Titan waiting for jails to spawn (so I could Bane > Fester the add)... I thought I baned but didn't (d'oh) and festered the add. No one noticed it but I was severely disappointed in myself and decided it was time to call it a night (was 4am at that point I think).

I would never ever say to fester without dots, and I've never met a SMN who would. I did once meet a SMN who swore that Fester was a waste of MP (I figured out what he really meant was he thought it was 'impossible to sustain mp without using Energy Drain every single time'). He was doing less dps than the tank. I tried to give him friendly advice but the rest of the party berated him so he immediately went on the defensive. -_-;; I think if anyone thought I was saying to use Fester without dots, it may have been due to the whole argument about when to use RS. Either way, always make sure DoTs are up before Festering... and on that note, make sure your last dot is up. Bio takes a split second to 'appear'.

It says "no effect". Or so I've been told! I'd never ever make that mistake!

...

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

How nice of you to insult me in your response. Anyway, I know it seems logical to cast dots first, but I actually had someone parse it once... Unless you can afford to stand absolutely still (that means no dodging whatsoever -- which is extremely rare in extreme modes, exception being garuda), 2x RS buffed Festers will tend to do more damage than one RS Fester + buffed dots. With your way, there is a chance you won't get two buffed festers -- If you time RS + dots + your first fester perfectly, you will literally only have 1-2 seconds to get off your second Fester before RS wears off, and this timing is extremely tight so I prefer to just use it for the two Festers immediately. Then, you can recast your buffed RS dots after (or between) the two Festers without worry, and you'll still get the buffed damage you wanted (you'll have approximately 10 seconds left after both festers to recast your dots with buffs). With my way, you have less of a chance of missing the two buffed Festers (and by that I mean if you have to move or stop at any point while casting the dots after RS, you will not be able to use two buffed festers).

I suppose it sort of depends on gear, though. My crit rate is 510 so the crazy high damage from the high chance of a RS crit fester is way greater than a normal RS dot will parse. So no, my way is not horrible. I implore you to try it and let me know your results, as gear will be a variable in this debate.

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IF you dont have enough time to get your first 3 dots off in the beginning of a fight.. because if your trying to talk about an "rotation" other then the open sequence of a fight... your out of your mind. Once the fight, and mechanics start, you can toss your "rotations" out the window and it becomes a priority.

4 Dots running at RS level... with contagion... will outparse fester.. even 2 festers.

Of course it's a priority system once the fight starts but I think Ryuko has a point. It definitely depends on the fight mechanics, gear and your skill to time Festers and manage everything else.

Just for fun I did some calculations just very roughly. Assuming all the dots run their 'full' duration (base+contagion) the potencies are:
Bio 440, Miasma 455, Bio II 525. That means the base damage from dots is 1420. Add in RS and that makes it 1704 potency, a 284 potency increase.
Compared with what Ryuko said about Fester critting, assuming RS and all dots are up for both Festers and Fester crits both times that's 450 potency each compared with 300 normally. That's an overall 300 potency increase. Of course there's all the other factors that play in but unless I made a mistake, and please excuse me if I did (it's 6am) the difference in damage should be negligible at most.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

Of course it's a priority system once the fight starts but I think Ryuko has a point. It definitely depends on the fight mechanics, gear and your skill to time Festers and manage everything else.

Of course there's all the other factors that play in but unless I made a mistake, and please excuse me if I did (it's 6am) the difference in damage should be negligible at most.

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There is really no comparison to make. You can do both (all dots + 2 festers) while under RS. This is especially easy to do during the opening of a fight where the first 20-30 seconds are predictable.


There's no "risk" of not getting the festers off in time-- it's purely a player skill issue, like you mentioned. The difference in damage is not negligible; it's significant enough to warrant practicing an RS rotation and being able to do it.

I made a video of myself doing the opening rotation I describe (on a dummy with the battle log up):

Basic High-Damage Opening Rotation



I can make another video that shows me doing it in a boss fight, if it's requested. But it will just be me doing the exact same thing, the same exact way. Of course there would be adjustments depending on the boss, but regardless of what boss it is the principle is the same: you should be able to get all your dots and 2 festers off during RS.


[The main exceptions to doing the above as an opening rotation are when getting into melee range can force you to move before getting your dots up (ADS) or if a boss will become invulnerable before getting both festers off (titan HM).]

RS bio II maisma bio I fester shadow flare always gets me 2 festers during RS. it's not even close, you get the second fester off with 5 seconds to spare or something

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Originally Posted by RxRai

/snip

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What Ryuko (and you) get mistaken, is that Ryuko's method buffs a bunch of ruins. Now that we don't have Thunder anymore it takes about 7 secs (with lag) to get up your first 3 dots. Add a tick to wait for Bio/Fester, you're at 8 secs, and that's iff you somehow have no spell speed. Hit Fester off CD, that's 18 secs. And RS last 20. You have no reason whatsoever to miss your second fester (even while running), and you have 10 secs to get off your Shadowflare and a ruin or 2. There's no comparison.

raging strikes before dots results in higher damage

rotation 1 (dots before rs): dots> raging strikes > fester > miasma 2 > swiftcast > shadowflare > contagion > ruin *2 > fester > ruin*4 > fester (11 gcd skills)
-all dots are buffed by contagion, miasma2 + sf are buffed by raging strikes, 3 festers buffed by raging strikes.
total potency : 525(bio2)+ 475(miasma)+ 440(bio)+ 300(sf)+ 360*3(festers)+ 144(miasma2)+ 96*6(ruins) = 3540 potency (keep in mind you might lose 60 potency because lag/animation makes you unable to hit the 3rd fester before rs ends).

rotation 2 (rs before dots): raging strikes> dots > fester > miasma 2 > contagion > ruin > swiftcast > sf > ruin > fester > ruin (raging strikes end) > ruin*3 > fester (11 gcd skills)
-all dots are buffed by contagion and raging strikes, 2 festers buffed by raging strikes.
total potency: 630(bio2)+ 570(miasma)+ 528(bio)+ 300(sf)+ 360*2 + 300(festers)+ 144(miasma2)+ 96*3(ruins)+80*3(more ruins) = 3720 potency

there's very little risk of "missing" your 2nd buffed fester unless you're super laggy or falling asleep. assuming your gcd is 2.5, from the time you start raging strikes:
0.5s(lag/animation)+2.5s(bio2)+2.5s(miasma)+0.5s(bio animation) before your 1st fester (14 to 14.5 secs left on rs timer) subtract that by 10 secs(fester cd) and you've got 4-4.5 secs of leeway (and your gcd likely isn't 2.5, would be more around 2.4 - 2.45 region)

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Originally Posted by RxRai

Of course it's a priority system once the fight starts but I think Ryuko has a point. It definitely depends on the fight mechanics, gear and your skill to time Festers and manage everything else.

Just for fun I did some calculations just very roughly. Assuming all the dots run their 'full' duration (base+contagion) the potencies are:
Bio 440, Miasma 455, Bio II 525. That means the base damage from dots is 1420. Add in RS and that makes it 1704 potency, a 284 potency increase.
Compared with what Ryuko said about Fester critting, assuming RS and all dots are up for both Festers and Fester crits both times that's 450 potency each compared with 300 normally. That's an overall 300 potency increase. Of course there's all the other factors that play in but unless I made a mistake, and please excuse me if I did (it's 6am) the difference in damage should be negligible at most.

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LOL, what? Are you seriously comparing a scenario where one side of the argument you crit all the time, and the other side you don't crit at all, comparing the damage, and then saying the difference is negligible? LOL?

The simple reality is you can RS, put up all your DoTs, and hit Fester twice, just the same as "Ryuko's method", except you get the extra ~300 potency from the buffed DoTs, which you also need to consider will be contagioned, giving you that much more.

There is no reason at all to RS after DoTs are up, none at all. This whole idea that you will have to dodge and blah blah blah and not be able to get the last Fester in is a load of nonsense. All fights follow a pattern, and everyone should know those patterns by now. If you can't get your DoTs and 2 Festers in before the RS buff expires, you're horrible.

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Originally Posted by Azoryl

This is horrible... Raging strikes after you applied all you dots is really bad. The good opening sequence should go...

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Miasma II > Contagion > Ruin II + Fester(or Bane) > Shadowflare > Ruin 1....

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My single target math says more like:

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Swiftcast > Shadow Flare > Fester > Miasma II > Contagion then move into a priority system with reapplying non Miasma II dots as needed and filling with Ruin/Ruin II. Miasma II is only applied when it can be contagioned as its base damage is lower than Ruin if not contagioned.

Shadow Flare is way more damage per cast than a raging striked contagioned Miasma II (~250 total potency vs ~144 total potency) and if you are on point with getting these skills off quickly, the first fester comes out before 10 seconds is out on the Raging Strikes, allowing two raging striked festers.

If you are concerned that you might not get the first fester off in time, then you could do:

Raging Strikes > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Swiftcast > Shadow Flare > Miasma II > Contagion. The problem with this is that using multiple off the gcd abilities in a row wastes them the way the game seems to handle them. So the rest of your opening may be delayed by about .5 seconds, which while undesirable is still better than Miasma II first. Even if it results in clipping a buffed Ruin into an unbuffed Ruin at the end of RS (16 potency lost), you still gain.

The other slight bonus these openings give is they give you two instant casts to get into position before your Miasma II instead of just one. The range on Miasma II is not huge and depending on where the pull took place, 1 gcd of movement may not be enough to actually make it into position.

The difference in this opening vs casting Miasma II before Shadow Flare is minor (basically maybe 30ish potency lost total) but it does exist. To clarify, if you calculate overall potency, this will provide the same overall potency as Miasma II first, BUT the damage from this opening is finished coming out 2-5 seconds before the Miasma II first opening which will translate to a damage increase over the course of the fight.

While we at it, i want to ask you guys. Is there any Significant difference between (As starter)

Bio -> Bio II -> Miasma -> RuinII|Fester -VS- Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester

I've been arguing this with another SMN user in FC for which one the best for starter. the thing is
The left sequence will took 3 GCD for initial DoTs while the right sequence only took about roughly 2.5 GCD (because Bio need time to settle in) But as you already know Bio has higher potency thus leading to higher initial startup damage. But seeing the post inside, each of you are in favor for the right sequence, is there any particular reason for that ?

Unless you want to do 1dps, apply RS before DoTs. This is my standard opener.

Swift Shadowflare > Spur+Rouse+Enkindle > RS > Bio2 > Bio > Miasma > Fester > Spam Ruin > Reapply Bio at 4s of RS left > Fester Again > Contagion

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Originally Posted by WLotus

Unless you want to do 1dps, apply RS before DoTs. This is my standard opener.

Swift Shadowflare > Spur+Rouse+Enkindle > RS > Bio2 > Bio > Miasma > Fester > Spam Ruin > Reapply Bio at 4s of RS left > Fester Again > Contagion

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This opener is not optimal.

#1: Your DoT rotation is incorrect (it should be Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio)
#2: Shadowflare is affected by Raging Strikes (since patch 2.1), and should be applied during RS for maximum efficiency.
#3: You would want to spam Ruin II (not ruin), as it allows you to get in more RS'd auto attacks during the GCD.
#4: There is no reason to apply Bio twice during raging strikes, that eats up an extra GCD and is inefficient (you should use contagion earlier, not re-apply the same dot)

You can reapply RS'd SF after but imo during the time you are going thru your spurrouseenkindle + throwing up RS & dots you want something to be doing constant damage instead of letting that time going to waste. Your initial SF will be going off the whole time this is happening. I'm certainly not the best SMN, as I main WHM and offspec SMN but what I posted is what a good friend of mine taught me and he is by and far the best SMN I have ever seen on any server. I've left a comment on your youtube video w/ a question if you don't mind answering it :).

I find it really funny that people came in this thread and actually spoke about my method long after I gave up on talking here. Anyway, just so everyone can rest easy... I do use RS before dots if it's a situation where I know with 100% certainty I will be able to pull it off without movement. There are situations where players who are inexperienced with the fight won't know with 100% if they can do it this way, and again, it is a risk losing the extra Fester if you don't know your perfect timing. My advice was based on the fact that this person may not know all the fights yet, and therefor might not know how to optimize timing. (Example: starting out Titan Extreme, you can easily pull off RS + dots + two festers, but it will be a VERY tight squeeze unless you start the fight far away, put on dots, Fester once, dash in to get ready for plumes after LS, use Ruin 2 filler until the second Fester, etc. If you start the fight as other dps, stacking on his butt right away, running in and dodging the first landslide will force you to lose time with casting your dots... and in the end, that is a dps loss of both time and possibly your second fester. Those of us who know the fight REALLY well will pull it off, but imagine not having the fight memorized or at least not realizing the timing of the start.)

As for my 'perfect' starting rotation (if you know what is going to happen), this is what I actually do:

RS > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Fester > SC > Shadowflare (while also triggering Contagion) > Ruin 1 until Fester is almost ready > Ruin 2 to squeeze in a final Ruin > Fester > MAYBE Energy Drain (if you need the mp) while RS is still up for the added damage and MP return.. otherwise finish off RS by squeezing in another Ruin 2. Then use your Ruin 1 unless/until you need to move, as this is more mana efficient.

Generally, Ruin 1 > Ruin 2 unless you are trying to burst something down fast (because damage is distributed before GCD is triggered, not after), something is ALMOST dead, or you are moving, obviously.

I would wait to use Rouse/Spur/Enkindle until after RS is over because otherwise you are wasting 'added' dps. Sometimes I'll trigger the initial buffs right as the tank is running in, but it depends on the situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nux

While we at it, i want to ask you guys. Is there any Significant difference between (As starter)

Bio -> Bio II -> Miasma -> RuinII|Fester -VS- Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester

I've been arguing this with another SMN user in FC for which one the best for starter. the thing is
The left sequence will took 3 GCD for initial DoTs while the right sequence only took about roughly 2.5 GCD (because Bio need time to settle in) But as you already know Bio has higher potency thus leading to higher initial startup damage. But seeing the post inside, each of you are in favor for the right sequence, is there any particular reason for that ?

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On a long boss fight where your dots will tick to duration many times, you want to get your highest total potency dots down as early as possible. Contagion or not that means Bio II > Miasma > Bio although the availability of contagion makes the difference between Miasma and Bio II nearly negligible (10 potency) if the other benefits of Miasma may be important to have up earlier.

For shorter fights where a mob will be dying before dots tick to full duration the priority changes and you have to sort of figure out on a case for case basis how long the mob will be living to figure out your dot priority.

Unfortunately I didn't log off on my SMN, but I am full BIS with T5 weapon and I usually pull 320-340 dps. We farm coil and sell primal extreme runs as 3 dps, I mention this only to add to my credibility
Here is a link to my gear set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQRW
My stat priority is Int>Acc(448 for pet)>Crt>Det>SSPD
Here is a link to my group doing T5:
http://www.twitch.tv/wrydas217/c/3612493
Notice I often don’t focus on maximizing DPS in order to benefit the group, your main priority is always clearing content.
NOTE: Instant skills in parenthesis "( )" are meant to be cast within a global cooldown
Rotation:
Raging Strikes + Foes Requiem -> Bio II -> Miasmi -> Bio (Rouse + Fester) -> Shadow Flare -> Ruin II (Spur + Enkindle + Contagion) -> Ruin I -> Ruin II (Fester) -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin II (Fester + Aether Flow) -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin II (Fester) -> Bio (Swift Cast) -> Shadow Flare -> Miasma -> Ruin II (Fester) -> Bio II -> etc.

Cheers.

Always keep your pet on Obey and control her abilities and positioning, if she dies you lose out on 70-80 dps. Use Raging Strikes/Spur/Rouse/Fester/Aetherflow/Contagion/Enkindle off cooldown, while weaving them into Ruin II, Bio & Swift Cast GCD in order to maximize your rotation and cast per minute, unless you are saving them for specific phases or mobs. Using swiftcast to maximize dot uptime is very effective for getting that little extra DPS from your rotation but it also leaves your group vulnerable to deaths. If your bards don't sing during dot applications you are missing out on 10%-20% dps. Make sure you use Bane, Miasma II, and Aerial Slash when there is more than 1 mob present. Ruin II GCD weaving although effective at increasing DPS is very mana intensive.

I'll try and make myself available to any SMNs with questions about rotation or more specific boss based strategies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrydas

Unfortunately I didn't log off on my SMN, but I am full BIS with T5 weapon and I usually pull 300-400 dps.
NOTE: Instant skills in parenthesis "( )" are meant to be cast within a global cooldown
Rotation:
Raging Strikes + Foes Requiem -> Bio II -> Miasmi -> Bio (Rouse + Fester) -> Shadow Flare -> Ruin II (Spur + Enkindle + Contagion) -> Ruin I -> Ruin (Fester) -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin II (Fester + Aether Flow) -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin I -> Ruin II (Fester) -> Bio (Swift Cast) -> Shadow Flare -> Miasma -> Ruin II (Fester) -> Bio II -> etc.

Cheers.

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Not to nitpick, but this is not optimal either: (I'm also suspicious that your parser is broken if you think you are doing 400 dps in an actual encounter)


* There is no reason to go Ruin I -> Ruin II unless you are running very low on mp. It's a dps loss to spam Ruin I like that during RS because you will get in less auto attacks.

* There is no reason to cast shadowflare twice (?) in one RS rotation. If you meant the second one as after RS wears off, then you should use swiftcast on the first one (during the limited time of raging strikes).

* You should be using rouse / spur / enkindle --outside-- of raging strikes, because they do not benefit from the skill and take time away from your GCD's. It's irrelevant whether they are technically "off the GCD" or not, because in reality they take at least 1s to activate in between skills and only pet commands can truly be used simultaneously (such as obey or aerial slash). Using them during RS is a dps loss.

* You cannot use "Bio (Swift Cast) -> Shadow Flare" because after bio you will have to wait for the 2.5sec GCD before the AoE circle for shadow flare can appear (as the skill shares the same GCD whether or not you use swiftcast). It is better to try to weave in swiftcast -> shadowflare after using a skill that won't share the GCD (or at least can be used immediately after). Examples of these types of skills are rouse/spur/enkindle (not during RS), energy drain / fester / bane, aetherflow, normal cast-time skills (bio II, miasma, etc).

I use ACT can provide excel sheets

* There is no reason to go Ruin I...

You will go oom spaming Ruin II. We can agree to disagree

* There is no reason to cas....

30 seconds have elapsed at this point in the rotation. Although perhaps your suggest for SC on first during RS would be better

* You should be using rouse....

I don't think we are communicating properly, you can cast instant abilities in between spells that have no cast time in order to not lose time off your globals. Check the video to see what I'm talking about

* You cannot use "Bio (Swift Cast)...

2.5 seconds is not the global of BIO, Im at 2.41 base. When I cast SC in the global that is activated by BIO I am not losing anytime on the animation for SC itself. I do this to not incur the animation lock for instant cast abilities. These are where you lose time from casting..... see video for example.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrydas

* You should be using rouse....

I don't think we are communicating properly, you can cast instant abilities in between spells that have no cast time in order to not lose time off your globals. Check the video to see what I'm talking about

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I think he was talking about you advocating for this:

"Ruin II (Spur + Enkindle + Contagion)" and this "Ruin II (Fester + Aether Flow)"

You cannot fit 2 off-GCD skills into a Ruin 2 (or any instant GCD skill) cooldown without sacrificing some DPS. You sacrifice a pretty small amount (less than ~0.5 seconds) of time doing two of them, but ~1 second for each OGCD skill thereafter. So each time you cast two OGCDs during an instant's GCD window, you lose some cast time. That's all he was saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrydas

* You cannot use "Bio (Swift Cast)...

2.5 seconds is not the global of BIO, Im at 2.41 base. When I cast SC in the global that is activated by BIO I am not losing anytime on the animation for SC itself. I do this to not incur the animation lock for instant cast abilities. These are where you lose time from casting..... see video for example.

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I take it that he thinks you are attempting to cast Shadow Flare during the GCD window of Bio, which obviously you can't do. As long as you are only using the Bio GCD window to Swiftcast, then putting the Shadow Flare out after the Bio GCD is completed, nothing is lost. It is actually better that way than doing something like Miasma -> Swiftcast -> Shadow Flare, you avoid the ~1 second animation time for Swiftcast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrydas

Unfortunately I didn't log off on my SMN, but I am full BIS with T5 weapon and I usually pull 300-400 dps. We farm coil and sell primal extreme runs as 3 dps, I mention this only to add to my credibility
Here is a link to my gear set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQRW
My stat priority is Int>Acc(448 for pet)>Crt>Det>SSPD
Here is a link to my group doing T5:
http://www.twitch.tv/wrydas217/c/3612493

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Hmm, if you are claiming 400 DPS Sustained (IE, over the course of an entire encounter) then please, provide ACT results (perhaps the discrepancy lies in you setting the encounter culling very low and then combining separate encounters - which is fine when comparing to others doing the same, but comparing a combined encounter to an actual entire encounter, your DPS is going to be exaggerated).


Either way, I find it rather hard to believe that you (and I would assume you are implying your fellow DPS are on Par with you since you made sure to mention you sell runs with just 3 of you) are just doing so much more damage than everyone else.

My group only has 3 Dreadknights, and ends with 1:30+ remaining before enrage (same set up, 2 tank 4 dps, not 1 tank 5 dps). That's with our MNK being highest at around 312 DPS, me as BLM usually around 280-290, DRG around 270, and BRD around 250-260. (this all being on one over all encounter, no culling).

So your group having 5 Dreadknights and ending with around 30 seconds left (ie, being about a minute behind), seems pretty strange if you are all supposedly 100 DPS higher.

I don't pull 400 dps for example I did so 2 nights ago on moogle lol, perhaps it was a little over zealous for me to include that in the range of normal DPS I usually tread at around 320-340 dps depending on how much I derp. The video is very old before many of us had weapons from T5, we haven't really had a clean run for a while since we are currently trying to get a full run with all the proper FC members instead of pugs, so we are still working out the kinks although we take her down lots of mistakes are made. Let me see if I can find a more proper video. Ill edit my post accordingly. I will post sheets once I get home on fresh content.