New Role, Support Classes

So generally in mmo's its normally a holy trinity.
Tank, dps, healer.

Why not add something else like a synergist (buffer) or sabatuer (debuffer)
Or even both into one class? You know for stuff like haste, shell, silence, blind ect.

It would make the gameplay feel more Final Fantasy.
It would help keep the genre true to its nature and diversify itself from other mmos.

Closest thing we have now is a bard.
I'd love to see one of these classes, I know Time Mage has been suggested before.

Because i see no one willing to play a class whose purpose is to sit there and buff people. Ask yourself, how many pug BRDs even bother to sing?

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Originally Posted by Aaron_T

You know for stuff like haste, shell

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A) Yoshi-P has specifically said that the players will never get Haste. B) Shell already exists in the form of the Proshell Trait for Conjurers.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Ask yourself, how many pug BRDs even bother to sing?

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Even better question: How many of them use Foe Requiem?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Because i see no one willing to play a class whose purpose is to sit there and buff people. Ask yourself, how many pug BRDs even bother to sing?

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I'd play the shit out of a pure support class. Loved brd in FFXI :D

I'd love a pure support class. I'd even take more classes that mix support with dps like brd.

Lack of class deviation from the trinity is one of the factors that makes group content less interesting to me.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Because i see no one willing to play a class whose purpose is to sit there and buff people. Ask yourself, how many pug BRDs even bother to sing?

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This is a problem with Barcher design - When it was more support like in 1.x no one had issues with it, people even still gear swapped to enhance the songs lol. Support roles, sadly, has no place in generic MMO design, only specialty MMOs have room for support or even debuff classes.

Yoshi said players will never get haste because he hates the idea of us focusing on one stat (OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPS.)

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Originally Posted by BoomerOU

I'd love a pure support class. I'd even take more classes that mix support with dps like brd.

Lack of class deviation from the trinity is one of the factors that makes group content less interesting to me.

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We still have hopes for FFXI Corsair to pop up when Musketeer is available, since as we all know, COR DD is pretty amazing in some encounters as well as buffing potential. All they really need to do is throw in Geomancer too, buff/debuff spheres is a pretty interesting mechanic.

FFXIV is not Final Fantasy. It has every crap the generic MMOs have.. a Tank, Dps and a healer.

FFXI had/has pure support roles: BRD(song buffs), RDM(average dps with enhancing spells), DNC(moderate dps with healing buffs), GEO(elemental buffs)... etc etc..

lol COR DD. You mean "COME COR AND RESET MY 2HR" DD

Also, FF had support roles because it had 6 man parties. I highly doubt you'll see a support role in a 4 man PT system.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

lol COR DD. You mean "COME COR AND RESET MY 2HR" DD

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Yeah, unfortunately I wasn't talking about 2006, but I must have imagined how COR is pretty much one of the key DD these days :p

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Also, FF had support roles because it had 6 man parties. I highly doubt you'll see a support role in a 4 man PT system.

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Yeah, even in our 8 man parties there won't be room since those are few and far inbetween - It was quite the stupid decision to go with 4 man for "most of the encounters in game", it's really...stupid, no other way to describe it lol. Hell XIV used to have 15 man parties.

15 man. :l

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Originally Posted by Aaron_T

So generally in mmo's its normally a holy trinity.
Tank, dps, healer.

Why not add something else like a synergist (buffer) or sabatuer (debuffer)
Or even both into one class? You know for stuff like haste, shell, silence, blind ect.

It would make the gameplay feel more Final Fantasy.
It would help keep the genre true to its nature and diversify itself from other mmos.

Closest thing we have now is a bard.
I'd love to see one of these classes, I know Time Mage has been suggested before.

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It'll never happen because the game needs to be balanced for PvP. So all classes must have the ability to deal damage. I'd love to play a pure support class though. Plus, adding a 4th "type" would require completely reworking the DF system.

I seriously hope they add support roles... as Jobs, not Classes.

All Classes should be able to DPS, but Jobs should either sacrifice or enhance DPS for specialization.

How it could be done:

Archer [Class]

• Bard [Support Job] Loses "Rain of Death" and gain the song "Valor Minuet" which boosts party Determination within a radius (like Moogle Bard). Traits: 'Enhanced Swift Song' adds bonus party Skill Speed and Spell Speed (like SCH 'Fey Glow/Light') -- I think BRD would need the ability to run multiple songs at once.
• Ranger [DPS Job] Gains "Rain of Death" and 4 other ranged DPS abilities.

The same could be done other classes:
Conjurer [Class]> White Mage [Healing Job], Geomancer [Support Job]
Arcanist [Class] > Summoner [DPS Job], Scholar [Healing Job], Time Mage [Support Job]
Scout [Class] > Thief [DPS job], Dancer [Support Job]

Regardless of how Support roles are added, the Tank/Heal/Dps system is FAR too limiting for a FF game and it just means more of the same for years to come unless they change it.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

The same could be done other classes:
Conjurer [Class]> White Mage [Healing Job], Geomancer [Support Job]
Arcanist [Class] > Summoner [DPS Job], Scholar [Healing Job], Time Mage [Support Job]
Scout [Class] > Thief [DPS job], Dancer [Support Job]

Regardless of how Support roles are added, the Tank/Heal/Dps system is FAR too limiting for a FF game and it just means more of the same for years to come unless they change it.

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Agreed completely, there are many jobs that I would love to see as support. It would absolutely require an increase in party size, imo, and that's something I don't think SE is willing to do.

speculation, but i saw this vid awhile ago..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6yHyo6DIRE

love Mr Happy

Ew. Anyway, we already knew about hybrid possibilities from even before ARR was released, but Hybrid's is more along the lines of x job + x job = new job, rather than class+class = job.

We won't really see much beyond what's generally found in generic MMOs these days.

I thought I was getting a support class when I rolled BRD. Was a bit disappointed by the general lack of support abilities (as it is, SMN is more support than BRD could ever hope to be). I'd love to see something a bit more supporty.

I'd love to see support roles, or even just hybrid jobs would make me happy (*cough cough* give us Red Mage and Dancer). I'm sure XIV will stick to the whole MMO trinity, can't really do anything about it. But having party support abilities would be great, or even just self buffs that feel significant.

I'd love to see support roles, or even just DPS/Heals/Tanks with more support skills (*cough cough* give us Red Mage and Dancer). I'm sure XIV will stick to the whole MMO trinity, can't really do anything about it. But having party support abilities would be great, or even just self buffs that feel significant.

For example, RDM in FFXI gained en-spells, a self buff that applied an element to the weapon and added damage (say an attack does 40dmg, it would turn into 40+8, sort of like an extra hit per auto attack). These could work like XIV Paladin's sword oath, adding X amount of potency to auto attacks (or all attacks, but drains MP). RDM could also get debuffs: blind, paralyze, gravity, etc. on their weapon skills or something (say if it were a GLD job, savage blade enmity boost gets replaced by paralyze or something, immunity over time of course).

Dancer could be a sort of spot healer with Drain Samba. Have dances work like songs so they drain MP for the effect. Debuffs like quickstep and box step to lower evasion and whatnot, etc.
What I'd like to see:
GLD - Dark Knight, Red Mage, Onion Knight (:D), or another sword job to serve as DPS
LNC - Something to tank - or Dragon Knight, wyvern pet job like in XI :D
PGL - Black Belt? Ninja? (Ninjas used claws >.>). Puppetmaster (pet job, they used h2h in XI).
ARC - Ranger as pure DPS - Beastmaster (pet job)
CNJ - Geomancer (CNJ uses earth, wind, and water already, it would fit as another healer. More heavy on party buffs I would say OR as DPS, cures turn into "terrain" for damage or something).
THM - Time Mage I guess. No Haste for the party (Yoshi-P said he didn't want it for us I think), but abilities that effect the enemy. Slow, stop, etc. - Saboteur (debuffs I guess idk, throwing stuff out there.)


Knife class - Dancer
Knife class - Thief
Katana class - Samurai
Fencer - Red Mage - Rune Fencer (Tank)
Gunner - Corsair
Machinist - Puppetmaster

Support roles generally don't work because most people find them boring. Working support type abilities into the existing trinity is a much better idea than creating a pure support role. BRDs sing when there is a need for it, the problem is only the highest content actually mandates it in the first place.

I know this question isn't really related but is it possible to be both support and support dps if I would to go SCH + BRD?

I'm not going to lie but the idea of having a buff class that increases all stats at a certain level would be a great addition but I don't know if it feels.. like part of the FF lore or whatever. But I could be wrong. I'm not exactly sure if people really want to just stand there and buff people.

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Originally Posted by Fated

Support roles generally don't work because most people find them boring. Working support type abilities into the existing trinity is a much better idea than creating a pure support role. BRDs sing when there is a need for it, the problem is only the highest content actually mandates it in the first place.

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Most people find Tanking and Healing boring or uninterested in it which is why SE is doing everything to try to get people to play them, tank specifically, so that logic doesn't work.

The whole issue with these kind of MMOs is throwing in buff/debuff/support stuff into every ability on every class. SE is creative, they can do amazing things if they get off this "safe" path.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Because i see no one willing to play a class whose purpose is to sit there and buff people. Ask yourself, how many pug BRDs even bother to sing?

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umm a bard who isnt playing mp song for his healer is a bad bard, pug or not i wouldnt group with that bard

I think it will come eventually. They just have to figure out how to make it work with their current battle system and ensure that it is capable of soloing for story purposes.

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Originally Posted by Meowneko

I know this question isn't really related but is it possible to be both support and support dps if I would to go SCH + BRD?

I'm not going to lie but the idea of having a buff class that increases all stats at a certain level would be a great addition but I don't know if it feels.. like part of the FF lore or whatever. But I could be wrong. I'm not exactly sure if people really want to just stand there and buff people.

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That's exactly what I tried to do. SCH is a fantastic support and pretty great heals as well, especially when paired with a WHM. BRD, however, is a one trick pony. The only useful "support" we have is Mage's Ballad, and in some very specific situations Foe Requiem. On top of that, our DPS is pretty bad as well. We do have mobility, which is nice, but doesn't really offset the drawbacks except in a few specific fights (Titan/HM/EX, T1). The Ballad is nearly required for a few fights at least, so we still have a place for now.

Hate to spoil it but the original holy trinity was not tank, DPS, heal. It was Tank, Heal, Support in EQ as the other 2 spots of DPS were dime a dozen. And an enchanter (minor DPS with party buffs and enemy debuffs and cc) was highly used. Having been a 75 chanter (way back when) I can say it has its potential.

Time Mage might be the closest thing to old Enchanter. Haste, slow and other effects.

I'm beggining to think I'm the only WHM in the DF that knows what ensuna does. Does that count as being a support class?

I'd love to see a time mage as a class, but even with support you can always lump them into a DPS role, where by buffing or debuffing others they add to the overall DPS.

Time and space magic would be a fun introduction to this game (if handled correctly) and for those who said Haste would not be introduced, well it is already in the game, we just don't have access to the spell, so here's hoping. :)

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Originally Posted by alhandra

umm a bard who isnt playing mp song for his healer is a bad bard, pug or not i wouldnt group with that bard

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This is a ridiculous statement. Outside of Coil Turns 4/5 and maybe Titan EX, there is absolutely no use for Ballad. If your healer needs MP song all the time, he's either a bad healer that cant manage his mana or dps need to stop dying/dodge better.

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Originally Posted by Nicodareus

Hate to spoil it but the original holy trinity was not tank, DPS, heal. It was Tank, Heal, Support in EQ as the other 2 spots of DPS were dime a dozen. And an enchanter (minor DPS with party buffs and enemy debuffs and cc) was highly used. Having been a 75 chanter (way back when) I can say it has its potential.

Time Mage might be the closest thing to old Enchanter. Haste, slow and other effects.

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If there are 4 types of classes in a party, its no longer a "trinity" by any stretch. MMO trinity is tank, healer, dps. Just because DPS were a dime a dozen doesn't make them any lesser part of a system... and definitely not enough to coin the remaining jobs a "trinity" because they were more necessary or desired than the others. EQ and others (ffxi) just didn't fall completely into the system of the holy trinity.

This game however, does 100%. The only way to completely circumvent that would be to rework the entire combat system from the ground up. So maybe we'll see something like that in "Final Fantasy: A reborn realm reborn again" or something.

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Originally Posted by vinces

This is a ridiculous statement. Outside of Coil Turns 4/5 and maybe Titan EX, there is absolutely no use for Ballad. If your healer needs MP song all the time, he's either a bad healer that cant manage his mana or dps need to stop dying/dodge better.

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Regardless of content and general situation, if the healer runs out of MP, bard should Ballad.
Doesn't matter if healer is bad or the dps can't dodge or tank not doing his job. Either you're a good bard, which is pretty rare, or you're the common bad bard.

Won't happen with 4 group slots unless they make them so good that you are required to have one which would make the current tank situation into a tank and support issue due to the badillion dpsers

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Originally Posted by Nahara

Even better question: How many of them use Foe Requiem?

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I do, I just get yelled at by the whm when they start screaming for ballad, and my mp is already depleted from using requiem or peaon.

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Originally Posted by Nahara

A) Yoshi-P has specifically said that the players will never get Haste. B) Shell already exists in the form of the Proshell Trait for Conjurers.



Even better question: How many of them use Foe Requiem?

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I DO............

It honestly has to be done right if such a type of class is ever introduced. (Chanter from Aion was pretty fun imo)

I personally like to play such roles myself. Picking and changing buffs/debuffs to suit the moment, and others noticing how much more they have to work when I'm not there. :p