Summoner Revamp Ideas

So I was a fan of the FFXI Summoner in that multiple summons were required and the summons were the focus of the class, where as the FFXIV Summoner plays like a Warlock and only one pet is really viable end game and our DoTs are our focus rather than our summons.
So shout out your ideas on how you'd want to change summoner!
My personal idea was making the pets provide abilities that buff the party in specific roles.
Ifrit buffs physical damage
Garuda buffs magical damage
Titan buffs physical defense
Ramuh buffs magical defense
Shiva debuffs enemies
Leviathan buffs healers.
While of course, values would have to be adjusted over all to make this balanced so as to not make Summoner the new bard (in that every party typically wants one), this would allow the summoner to be more than just a DoT class, and be switching pets as the battle requires. (This idea would also require the pet classes to not have linked CD'S)
But yeah, I just want to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Oh no... not this again. ;;

OP, if this is a topic you are interested in... I would suggest finding one of the dozens of other threads about this exact topic and contribute your ideas there.

Main reason I posted on here is because I like the minds of people in this sub forum and I wanted to hear their opinion LOL.
Also, don't want to necro the old threads.

I agree with this sir. This needs to be done, rather than have EVERY single summy using the little yellow birdie.

While i agree there should be more summons, if only for variety, let go of FFXI, it was terrible. Summoner in FFXI was the most afk class i've seen. Let you pet do its thing, face away from mob, go make sandwich. I like summoner in FFXIV, i have to do things, and pay way more attention here.

Also, keep in mind, it's been made pretty clear that as level cap goes up, more summons will come in. Who knows what that will entail, only Yoshi probably.

There should be a drinking game for these threads popping up all the time.

Let's say Summoner or any other class will be perfect now with all these changes that players want to happen, what else would it be in the future? No more changes as everything is already perfect?

Long story short, it's still too early. Let the dev team do adjustments in the future. As that what every MMO nowadays are doing. You can't have it all in one patch anyway.

Non Summoner Here..... But my wife plays as a Summoner...

While I don't think there is a need for a total revamp on the Summoner, I like the way it is.... I just kinda hope that the EGI's get balanced out for their utilization in the future....

Instead of seeing a summoner with Garuda out at all times during End game.... it'd be nice to see them have to alternate between their summons in battle... Im not sure if that means to tune a fight or two to optimize this, or tune the EGI's so they are all useful

Yes... Titan is a tank, and their is no need to pull him out unless one of the 2 tanks die in end game situations, and if this happens, its probably a wipe anyways....
But... how bout a situation where a primal battle, or coil raid switches from optimum range assault to optimum melee assault... and a good summoner would need to switch from garuda..... to ifrit..... back to garuda mid fight... and swiftcast would alleviate the need to casting time...

Maybe Leviathan comes in as a healing EGI.... so after the big aoe phases like garuda after the jump, titan after the heart... king mog when he summons.... leviathan for 45 seconds would be ideal....

Either way... its kinda dull seeing garuda shooting yellow spit for 10 mins... i'd like to be wow-ed by a cameo appearance of leviathan..... and hopefully this type of alternation will be expanded in the future...... a vanity green ifrit? a complete optional egi like mog? fenrir as an average summon but has a relic weapon like ordeal to achieve, making it a vanity commodity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkyHighDN

Maybe Leviathan comes in as a healing EGI....

---

The only way that would happen is if the devs actually wound up adding the hybrid role and decided that SMN should become a hybrid rather than a straight DPS. The situations you're describing are actually the explicit scenarios that the devs would have to implement in order to "require" hybrids, which is what Yoshi has said he wants to do (such that group comp would be 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 DPS, and 2 hybrids). Until such time, SMN isn't going to get a healing pet because that's what SCHs are there for, not to mention that it would provide explicit utility that no other class could match (and existing Titan's utility is highly conditional since it requires he be around from the start because he doesn't have provoke and all DPS keep their enmity comparatively low since Titan doesn't really have impressive enmity gen; he's also only marginally more durable than an mDPS durable; he's really just there for soloing, much like MNK Fists of Earth).

Barring the inclusion of a hybrid role and the commensurate change for SMNs, I don't really see much need to change them up. There could be some vanity modifications to the Egis, such as the option to turn Garuda-Egi into a Ramuh-Egi or Shiva-Egi, but, beyond that there's not really all that much that the job needs. The only possible tweak I could think of would be creating some kind of self-destruct capability for the Egis that would have them drop an appropriate nuke but cause them to disappear and put their summon on CD (such that you'd summon Garuda, have her kill herself, summon Ifrit, and have him kill himself when Garuda's summon is recharged, and vice versa). The only real "advantage" would be causing the SMN to have a reason to bounce Egis, but that's really all that it serves since SMN already has the ability to access their summons' nukes via Enkindle.

To the people getting upset: Dude, I was bored in abnormal psych and wanted to read some ideas and this sub forums has better ideas than the DPS sub forums. No duh this wouldn't happen overnight, or in the next patch seeing as they already announced that leviathan isn't coming until a level increase due wanting to add content for all classes at the same time.
Outside a revamp/hybrid role inclusion, the only change I personally think is necessary (till new levels) is an Ifrit egi revamp seeing as he's useless in most content.

How about making resistances a visible frickin difference. My ifrit egi does as much dmg to fire based creatures as he does to ice based ones.

Really?

REALLY?

It's impossible at this point to introduce resistances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

There could be some vanity modifications to the Egis, such as the option to turn Garuda-Egi into a Ramuh-Egi or Shiva-Egi, but, beyond that there's not really all that much that the job needs.

---

I really hope that they don't replace the current Egis with new ones like Ramuh and Shiva and let them be there own Egis, with something that can compete with Contagion. I really don't like that Garuda is the only summons worth commanding (Titan's a tank and shouldn't be used in parties and Ifrit is too buggy and squishy to be used often) and even then, it's for either placing or Contagion. When I compare SMN to SCH, even though most people only use Eos, you have so much more usability and control with SCH's pets. While Titan can remain the same for soloing, I wish they would fix Ifrit's buggy attack, and change both his and the rest of Garuda's moves to actually make them usable and worth controlling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

I really hope that they don't replace the current Egis with new ones like Ramuh and Shiva and let them be there own Egis, with something that can compete with Contagion.

---

I could actually see that, assuming that the devs gauge the value of the replacement properly. All SMN pets follow a pretty basic loadout comprised of an ST attack, an AoE, a CC utility/attack, a nuke, and a wildcard. CC/utility could remain identical to the equivalent Egi (though it would probably work best being thematic: Ramuh would probably get stun while Shiva would get KB or bind) and the nukes are all just variations on "big AoE damage on long CD". The only real difference is the wildcard, which can be pretty much anything. They could give SMN a certain level of support capability by giving Ramuh and/or Shiva group buffs akin to Selene and Eos' buffs (e.g. Ramuh increases magic defense by 20% for 20 seconds every 90 seconds; Shiva reduces elemental resistance on a single target by 10% for 15 seconds with a 90 sec CD); as such, Garuda/Ifrit would still be the best straight up DPS pets but the others would have niche functionality for groups (for those previous recommendations, Shiva would be amazing for caster heavy groups while Ramuh would be quite useful for AoE intensive fights).

Even so, that's not really discussing a revamp of SMN so much as addition of new capabilities to expand their given role/functions.

Just LOL....

when i meant leviathan as a healing egi.... i was thinking like a healing buff egi...... could cast regen, and maybe ballad over short increments, while still casting tidal wave as a aoe cone line attack..... it'd be kinda like levia & asura in FFIV combined... which would not defeat the role of a SCH at all.... it would actually be more bard like.... DPS would be down due to non dps attacks, but a ballad like ability and a regen like ability would be bard like (regen will be a bard song in the future, gauranteed, just like all FF's)..... wouldnt be an aoe healer, but a aoe healing buffer

I agree that SMN doesn't feel much like a Summoner compared to previous final fantasy games and we could use more summons that have more specific specialized roles in a group like in FFXI (not nearly to that extent, but similar in execution). However, I like how the actual Summoner has to actually cast spells to be effective rather than just sit back and let the pet do all the work.

Over time I'm sure that it will be improved, but for now I enjoy playing it the way it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

...Garuda/Ifrit would still be the best straight up DPS pets but the others would have niche functionality for groups...

---

What I think they should do with Ifrit is make Radiant Shield a buff he can cast of a selected target or they should just get rid of it for something more suited for a Melee DPS. I mean, he really has no use for it, seeing as he rarely ever gets more enmity then his SMN, so when will he get hit to take advantage of its spike damage. With Radiant Shield as a targetable buff, he will now have more utility, being able to place it on the tanks and it will give us a reason to keep him in Obey so he won't spam Crimson Cyclone and ruin the tank and/or DPS's stuns (that is IF Burning Strike is his default attack, I've never placed Ifrit in Obey to find out...).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

Blahblahblahblah

---

Also, I think they could give Garuda an Aero-DoT spell that can be effected by Contagion, just so she can have something else you can command her to use when needed... >w>

I really like OP's idea of each summon bringing a sort of buff/debuff since there needs to be a reason for uniqueness and customization. While it would be nice to have every summon usable they aren't like FFX or FFXI summons where they fight along side you in their full form. So having some sort of aesthetic mechanic like summoner barding.

It can be implemented under companions and just have a selection "Summon" which allows us to toggle our Egi "I" "II" "III". Where I is magic, II is tank, and III is physical.

Personally I'd prefer if Enkindle would be revamped to allow egi's into a mini-primal for 30 seconds while it uses it's strong ability. Yet since that idea seems to not even be a possibility I'd rather push for summoner barding.

I like Summoner, but my personal issues with it as a job are:

1. We are a DoT class/job and a Pet class/job, but the 2 have no interaction besides Contagion which is why Garuda is infinitely more useful than Ifrit.

2. Pets have no tactical value. They are relegated to basically being a second auto-attack.

I would suggest giving each of the Egis a DoT/Debuff consistent with their elemental alignment. Having these DoTs interact with Fester would also help with pet/Summoner interaction.

Ifrit - Burn: DoT w/Strength Debuff
Titan - Rasp: DoT w/Defense Debuff (I would say Vitality, but that only affects max HP).
Garuda - Choke: DoT w/Accuracy Debuff (or Evasion debuff)
Leviathan - Drown: DoT w/ Mind Debuff
Ramuh - Shock: DoT w/Dexterity Debuff
Shiva - Frost: DoT w/Intelligence Debuff
etc.

I also think that in order to make Ifrit competitive with Garuda, they need to change one of his skills to better match the power of Contagion. In the spirit of ARR's Summoner, I would suggest something that interacts with DoTs such as a Debuff on the mob that causes all DoT effects to have an increased Critical Hit rate for a set amount of time.

I think if/when further Egis are introduced, it would be nice to see them have some tactical advantages over one an other, while remaining balanced. I think it would be a terrible idea to have Leviathan have anything healing-related. We are a DPS job and we should stick to that. I'm quoting myself from the Leviathan-Egi speculation thread:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkstride

Leviathan would need something that competes with Contagion but does not overpower it.

Just for fun:

TAIL WHIP: deals x damage to target. Creates a small wave from the target that deals x (smaller value) damage to surrounding targets.

UNDERTOW: draws enemies within x range of target together and inflicts Heavy for x seconds. This would allow for easier use of AoE.

DROWN: Deals x damage over time and lowers enemy Strength. Just another DoT, since we are a DoT job.

EROSION: Applies a DoT for x seconds with potency that increases based on the number of active DoT effects. This would be like Fester, but a DoT rather than a direct hit, and would include the effect of Drown.

TIDAL WAVE: Deals AoE damage. Leaves behind a ground effect that continues to deal damage.

---

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

this would allow the summoner to be more than just a DoT class, and be switching pets as the battle requires

---

The long cast times for Summon are a balancing factor because it limits what you bring to the fight barring emergencies (also in part to punish you for letting your pet die). To allow rapid pets swaps would require nerfing the strength of the pets in terms of offense AND utility (to FFXI avatar levels if not weaker). Which would in effect go against your wish to have more focus on the pets instead of working for it. There's a reason FFXIV's SMN is designed the way it is, and from a design perspective is much more solid than XI's.

The only real change SMN needs is Contagion/Shining Emerald being moved to the Summoner themselves and giving Garuda something else. This would end the "Garuda iz b3zt" nonsense. Buffing Ifrit's damage resistance and fixing/improving his pathing wouldn't hurt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

*post*

---

Did I say that the summon cast times were too long.... anywhere? For god's sake, the spell fits in a fester cooldown, it's perfectly fine. Swiftcast+Summon is also a thing that most people do. So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently. Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now). FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class. Not a Summon class.

I do however agree with your 2nd paragraph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

So that invalidating the whole rapid pet swap thing you're talking about, (and I did say that the summoner's damage would have to be rebalanced in said post) and I'm confused about this "loss in utility" you speak of as the pets have no utility outside of damage bot/tank currently

---

It is obvious that if they were to change summons as you're asking they'd have to give egis utility. And my point still stands because not only would the egis have to have nerfed damage, but that utility would also need to be weak to be considered balanced because the core mechanic then becomes rapid pet swaps. It wouldn't be like in a single-player console FF where summons are either powerful buffs or powerful nukes with Amano Yoshitaka artwork instead of particle effects.

Quote:

---

Especially with the FFXI comment, seeing as FFXI summoner's avatar had a great deal of Utility (Blood Pact:Wards and Astral Flows ARE WAY HIGHER UTILITY than what we have now).

---

Considering SCH + Make-spells-AoE strategem can outbuff a summoner in anything that is not Eclipse Howl, that's not saying much. Even before SCH came you couldn't really validate a SMN's utility. People didn't care about the job until the whole bit with Alexander and Perfect Defense was added (and how Zantetsuken made it easy to grind exp in abyssea before SMNs were tossed aside and replaced by Ukon WARs).

Quote:

---

FFXIV's Summoner's design has already been linked to WoW's warlock numerous times in numerous threads, I don't think that it needs to be stated more, but yes, for FFXIV currently, the design is rather stable. But again. It's a DoT class.

---

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing. Specially keeping the limitations and outright bad design choices for XI's summoner in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

SMN is a pet job with DoT as its main damage source, and that's not a bad thing.

---

Isn't that a bad thing? I mean, shouldn't the pets be the focus of a pet job? The pets are basically positionable DoTs/turrets, with Contagion breaking up Garuda's pattern of Wind Blades, while Ifrit and Titan just run on autopilot.
I mean, I look at SCH vs SMN and while the SMN's control over their egi is pretty much just pressing Contagion or leaving the non-Garudas on auto, the SCH has far more encouragement to micromanage their fairy's Embraces and buffs. I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

*post*

---

You do realize that given the post I made, they would most likely lower the summoner's DPS ability rather than the pet's right? Since for max DPS, you'd keep Garuda out because of the magic damage buff? Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly. The core mechanic would simply be the summon for the situation. Oh, we have more physical DPS then magic DPS, I should use ifrit. Oh we need adds destroyed fast, better use garuda to buff the black mage! Oh, a healer died during titan ex and I'm questioning this healer's abilities! I should use Titan. Ifrit EX is about to use Hellfire! I should use Ramuh! Enrage mode activated! I should use Leviathan. Oh, I have a couple of seconds before a major move! I should use Shiva to debuff the enemy, swiftcast summon titan/ramuh based on the type of damage to mitigate the damage (possibly use levi but honestly probably won't need it, given the earlier two steps), and then after applying dots and festering, summon back my primary DPS pet.

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons. The class design is solid, and it's great DPS, and fun to play. Your last statement is fragmented so I don't know what to say to that.

I won't touch smn until the job becomes focused on the summons and not "dots". What's the purpose of even being a summoner when you just call 1 summon for the entire fight? It doesn't make sense to me at all. A summoner in my book should be constantly summoning different creatures/primals/sprites etc and doing their damage through the summons...not dots.

As for the egi - they look terribad, they look like what an elemental summoned sprite should look like. Not something that is the goto summon of the summoner job. Every FF game that has a summoner has bad ass summons...except this one, this one just has the bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Pre Wings of Goddess, Summoner buffs were still widely used, and even afterwards when everyone switched to Fenrir, we still had Alexander as you stated. Still contradicts your original post, seeing as you said that utility would be lowered to FFXI levels.

---

Not really, since Alexander was stupidly OPd. I will admit that I toned down my own post and had to delete that part, because I did get very nasty in mentioning SMN's shortcomings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PriyaJugulataris

Also, the core mechanic wouldn't be rapid pet swaps, because in the post that I made, there's no benefit for switching repeatedly.

---

Spreading utility between egis would still lead to rapid swaps.

Quote:

---

No, it's a DoT class. It's a DoT class with a pet, but it's still primarily a DoT class. The class's core mechanic revolves around DoT's (Aetherflow) thus my issue with it. A pet class focuses around having pets, as should a summoner focus on its summons.

---

It has a pet, the pet scales with the master's stats and you have limited ways of upkeep for said pet. You could complain about the DPS spread between master and pet, but in the end it is still a pet class.

I'm not going to expect a modern pet class to have the buff servitor line or other pet-only abilities seen throughout the years in MMOs (not with the ability limit that is in place AND the restrictions from the armoury system). It simply isn't reasonable given the design philosophies the devs have taken up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

I know that both aren't the same, in terms of function, and I'm not saying SMN needs more utility or to be a DPS/Support like BRD, but I would like the egi to have more of a presence in their gameplay.

---

DPS is a lot more cut and dry than other styles of play. When you split healing potential between a master and pet, you're going to need a LOT of micro-management because your healing throughput can make or break a group. SMN doesn't have this to deal with seeing that egi utility is somewhat limited (you could probably make a case for Ifrit's stun or any of the AoE abilities the egi's possess being micromanaged), and as long as t3h peeplez f4ll d0wn within a reasonable time you're still doing your job as a DPS. Granted that the whole Sic/Obey thing is in dire need of improvements, but that's why this is more evident in SCH than SMN.

I hope that they add a stance "Evoker's Calling" (or something) which allows the SMN to support the party. Their damage and/or the egi's damage would be reduced in order to have the egi give off an aura similar to a BRD song. Perhaps this could vary depending on the egi. Straight buff egi's could have their HP drain and/or drain some of the SMN's MP while regenerative egi's could have their damage and/or the SMN's damage reduced.

In some instances in the past summoner could do both either by choice or by randomness. Like in FFIII it was random for the evoker and for the sage I believe but the Summoner would always be the attack. Or for FFIX you could change some summons based on what you had equipped. I think a stance would be the best way to implement this here.

Also with Bravely Default they added in the Summoner and the Conjurer. The Summoner gains summoning magic to deal AoE damage while the Conjurer gains summoning magic to buff the party.

An example for the stances for straight buffs would be (buffs that would deplete SMN MP and/or egi HP):

Ifrit: Raises Attack of nearby party members.
Garuda: Raises Magic Attack of nearby party members.
Titan: Raises Defenses of nearby party members.

This way all 3 would have some sort of use. If you have a mage heavy party you would want to use Garuda, if you have a melee heavy party you'd want to use Ifrit. If you were about to face a big attack you could pop out a Titan. I envision it only being worthwhile to buff the party with ATK/MATK if you have 3 or more total DPS as one type.

An example for the stances for regenerative buffs would be (buffs that would reduce SMN and/or egi DPS):

Leviathan: Regenerates nearby party members' HP over time.
Ramuh: Regernates nearby party members' TP over time.
Shiva: Regenerates nearby party members' MP over time.

These egi's could have just about any function at this point in time of course but could be the go-to egi's for when you're not in a party heavily comprised of one type of DPS. This assumes these 3 would function with the same 3 roles as the last 3 which is possible. So if you need/want Melee DPS but don't need to give the melee an ATK boost you could use Leviathan and use the HP regeneration in a pinch, if you need/want magical DPS but don't need to give the casters a MATK boost you could use Shiva and use the MP regeneration should they need it, if the DPS need some TP but you don't need an extra tank you could pop out Ramuh to restore some TP before he takes hate from the current tank (perhaps the stance could also give him an enmity reduction).

Another idea would be to swap out the egi's attacks (minus their auto attacks) for straight buffs similar to FFXI's buffs. Ifrit could get attack enhancing buffs and make its Radiant Shield be AoE or something. Garuda could get moves to increase magic attack and skill/spell speed buffs. Titan could get defense buffs or defense reduction debuffs.