The conclusion of the Sylph and Amalj'aa tribe questlines. *SPOILERS*

Ok so I completed both of the beast tribe storylines last night and was treated to some cutscenes that made some interesting implications. I haven't seen anyone dicussing these yet so I figured I'd start a thread with a few interesting things I'd noted.

The Amalj'aa

• We are told that tempering is not a yes/no deal but rather a gradual scale and that longer exposure to a primal results in a more potent tempering effect. Prolonged exposure seems to rob the victim of their will entirely however, turning them into an empty husk.
• Loonh Gah's mother has been over-tempered to the point of insanity yet shows no signs of being a slave to Ifrit's will.
• She is also returned to Forgotten Springs to be rehabilitated. Prior to this I was under the impression that all tempered were executed... why is she treated differently?
• The leader of the tempered Amalj'aa begs for mercy when defeated and claims that he would serve Loonh Gah instead of Ifrit if she allowed him to live. How is it possible for him to do this if he is tempered? Is he even tempered? Or is this just a ruse?

The Sylphs:

• Just what makes the Chosen One so special? We're told that he/she is blessed by Ramuh in some way and has great power and yet the Chosen One clearly isn't tempered. Why would Ramuh grant power to an untempered Sylph when he is so obsessive about tempering them?
• The Chosen One says 'the cycle begins anew' as the last line of dialog. I assume it is referring to the cycle of a chosen one being born every so often but it sounded rather ominous and I'm not sure if there may be further implications to this.

Just my observations. I really enjoyed the conclusions to these quests but I hope we see more in the future, especially with the Sylphs, as they left me with a lot of new questions regarding the two tribes and the nature of tempering.

Thoughts?

In regards to tempering, this basically contradicts everything that has been mentioned previously on the subject during ARR's main storyline, but, does prove how 1.0 seemed to depict it as - that tempering isn't permanent, and requires constant reapplication to keep a tempered enthralled. Yet ARR's main storyline, numerous FATEs and quests all say the same thing - tempering is virtually instant, and permanent (hence why tempered have to be executed no questions asked). Once you're tempered, it's a fate worse than death. Only the Echo is stated as protecting a person from tempering, as it was shown in 1.0 and ARR.

So yeah, unless the Brotherhood of Ash are simply mistaken due to not having correct information, or if it's just an oversight on Ferne's part, I have no idea. But it does raise interesting questions and throws all our theories to the wind. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alberel

• She is also returned to Forgotten Springs to be rehabilitated...why is she treated differently?
• How is it possible for him to do this if he is tempered? Is he even tempered? Or is this just a ruse?

Thoughts?

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I don't believe she was returned to Forgotten Springs to be rehabilitated, just that she was moved there. Just like in the real world there are some people with severe mental instability who can't be rehabilitated, but it would be considered inhumane to kill them so they're kept and given as much comfort and care as is possible. I believe this is what's happening with Loonh Gah's mother.

And as for the leader begging for mercy I think there are two possibilities. Either A: He's tempered and its a ruse like you proposed or B: He isn't tempered and was a genuine worshiper of Ifrit (though, if this is the case I still think it was a ruse).

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I don't believe she was returned to Forgotten Springs to be rehabilitated, just that she was moved there. Just like in the real world there are some people with severe mental instability who can't be rehabilitated, but it would be considered inhumane to kill them so they're kept and given as much comfort and care as is possible. I believe this is what's happening with Loonh Gah's mother.

And as for the leader begging for mercy I think there are two possibilities. Either A: He's tempered and its a ruse like you proposed or B: He isn't tempered and was a genuine worshiper of Ifrit (though, if this is the case I still think it was a ruse).

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Yeah I guess maybe rehabilitated wasn't the right word. The sticking point was more that she wasn't executed on the spot and instead allowed to live what remained of any possible life she had left. I just found it odd.

As for the leader I suppose there's not much room for a discussion given that anything he said could just be a lie. But I found it odd that he would attempt to fool anyone into thinking he would betray his master when he is quite literally bound by Ifrit's will. I don't think it's possible that he was untempered by virtue of the fact that he would have had the most exposure to Ifrit of any Amalj'aa and Ifrit tempers pretty much everything.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The sticking point was more that she wasn't executed on the spot and instead allowed to live what remained of any possible life she had left. I just found it odd.

...Ifrit tempers pretty much everything.

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I don't think I would kill my own mother if I was in Loonh Gah's situation. Nor would I kill the mother of a close friend, no matter how insane. I don't think its that surprising that the characters involved choose to keep her alive. If she is worshiping Ifrit, it may give him some small measure of power, but I don't think that's enough of a reason for the characters to commit murder.

As for the tempering, I'm not 100% sure Ifrit tempers everything he comes into contact with. Its obvious he wants more worshipers, but the ones he brings in from the outside don't want to worship Ifrit and so he must temper them. If someone already worships him, perhaps there is no need for tempering. I've heard theories that Titan doesn't temper his worshipers (and indeed, we've never seen him temper or attempt to temper anything) and if this is true then he's sustained purely from voluntary worship, some of Ifrit's worshipers may be the same way.

In fact, I think the young Amalj'aa that want to join the Brotherhood of Ash aren't tempered, otherwise that would be a pretty important reason why not to allow them in. Instead, the Brotherhood merely says that they're loyalty wouldn't be very strong and they're likely to betray the Brotherhood at the first sign of hardship. Once you beat them up the quest given even says something like "Perhaps now they'll understand what being a warrior means" almost like they were trying to teach a lesson to the young Amalj'aa. This strikes me as odd if they had been tempered.

I'm pretty sure the Amalj'aa was lying to buy time. He says something like "bwahaha! You fool!" when Loonh Gah turns her back on him, but before we can see what he does he gets executed by the Brotherhood guy. If he wasn't lying about serving her then that line wouldn't make any sense. I personally don't think a strong tempering could stop them from denying loyalty to their primal - at least in the case of a lie.

I like thr Amja quests. But the Sylpy ones gave me a big ! on my head.

I understand why the Ash lizzies wanted be to do the stuff they wanted. For the so call peace loving Slyphs..

Bombings
Asassinations
Stealing babies
Drugs
And all 3 of them does the *sinister giggle* once in a while. Makes me think how "non threatening/peace loving" are they.

As for ur answers OP:
*Amaljaa:
1.She's not executed due to the relationship of the U tribe and the Immortal Flames, its very possible that the U tribe members whom we freed for BoA daily recognized she's still alive although may beyond cure. To kill her will have a disastrous effect to politics. And i believe she might be an "experiment guinea pig" to cure primal tempering.
2.At the BoA quest from recognized to friendly, imma sure u forgot the tempered IF guy who can bluff and lie about his loyalty to ifrit but acts normally like a normal peep. Not to add that the beastman tribes (Amaljaa, Slyph, Ixal, Kobold) were "tempered" differently from the 5 playable races. Theres a HUGE difference and effect from being tempered as a faithful servant who might sacrifice themselves to give powers to the primal extreme awakening and a slave

*Slyphs:
1.The Chosen One is not blessed by Ramuh but rather is some kind of a "collective power of nature" who manifested as a Slyph. And of course nature is not composed only on lightning element.
2. as for the quote : the cycle begins anew, it should be noted that this 'collective mind" is some kind of a robot who ask the nurturing slyph what is their order?Is it to destroy or for peaceful purpose? Frixio told the chosen one that she wants peace and harmony with other races , something that might NOT HAPPENING in the past (even when its peaceful) as the slyphs are kinda mischievious exclusive territorial kind as a race, something like China or Japan in the past when they closed their borders from foreigners and foreign cultures (even when their country is internally peace)

I haven't actually done the Sylph quests so no comment there, but I completed the Amaljaa and my thoughts are:
Loonh Gah's mother says something about offering Loonh to Ifrit when you come up behind her, but she's definitely just a husk at this point. It's also the Immortal Flames/Scions that execute the tempered, The Brotherhood of Ash and the Miqo'te of Forgotten Springs may have different rules or beliefs about it. I might be wrong because I didn't really read over it properly but were the Brotherhood of Ash trying to cure the tempered (like in the "Losing One's Tempered" quest)?
And the leader of the Amaljaa was straight up lying, when Loonh turns around he immediately says "something something die" before he gets killed himself.

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Originally Posted by Irrational

I haven't actually done the Sylph quests so no comment there, but I completed the Amaljaa and my thoughts are:
Loonh Gah's mother says something about offering Loonh to Ifrit when you come up behind her, but she's definitely just a husk at this point. It's also the Immortal Flames/Scions that execute the tempered, The Brotherhood of Ash and the Miqo'te of Forgotten Springs may have different rules or beliefs about it. I might be wrong because I didn't really read over it properly but were the Brotherhood of Ash trying to cure the tempered (like in the "Losing One's Tempered" quest)?
And the leader of the Amaljaa was straight up lying, when Loonh turns around he immediately says "something something die" before he gets killed himself.

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The Brotherhood of Ash is most definitely looking for a cure that isn't summary execution for the tempered. Most likely because they want to free their brothers and sisters from the yoke of Ifrit would be my guess.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

As for ur answers OP:
*Amaljaa:
1.She's not executed due to the relationship of the U tribe and the Immortal Flames, its very possible that the U tribe members whom we freed for BoA daily recognized she's still alive although may beyond cure. To kill her will have a disastrous effect to politics. And i believe she might be an "experiment guinea pig" to cure primal tempering.
2.At the BoA quest from recognized to friendly, imma sure u forgot the tempered IF guy who can bluff and lie about his loyalty to ifrit but acts normally like a normal peep. Not to add that the beastman tribes (Amaljaa, Slyph, Ixal, Kobold) were "tempered" differently from the 5 playable races. Theres a HUGE difference and effect from being tempered as a faithful servant who might sacrifice themselves to give powers to the primal extreme awakening and a slave

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Good points. Other than the Amalj'aa themselves I'd not seen any others who spared tempered beings but you're right it's likely not everyone handles them the way the Immortal Flames do.

And yes you're right, I totally forgot about that tempered soldier who pretended to be with the Flames. That's what happens when you have to wait two weeks between quests I suppose... xD

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Originally Posted by Irrational

I haven't actually done the Sylph quests so no comment there, but I completed the Amaljaa and my thoughts are:
Loonh Gah's mother says something about offering Loonh to Ifrit when you come up behind her, but she's definitely just a husk at this point. It's also the Immortal Flames/Scions that execute the tempered, The Brotherhood of Ash and the Miqo'te of Forgotten Springs may have different rules or beliefs about it. I might be wrong because I didn't really read over it properly but were the Brotherhood of Ash trying to cure the tempered (like in the "Losing One's Tempered" quest)?
And the leader of the Amaljaa was straight up lying, when Loonh turns around he immediately says "something something die" before he gets killed himself.

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Loonh Gah's mother actually said something along the lines of 'You can't have my little Loonh Gah' in reference to the rock she was cradling. If anything that shows a direct opposition to Ifrit's will despite being tempered. I'm actually wondering if she may be the key to a cure based on the fact that the broken mind seems to have more freedom than a tempered one despite being part of the same effect.

Thanks for the replies guys! :)

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Loonh Gah's mother actually said something along the lines of 'You can't have my little Loonh Gah' in reference to the rock she was cradling. If anything that shows a direct opposition to Ifrit's will despite being tempered. I'm actually wondering if she may be the key to a cure based on the fact that the broken mind seems to have more freedom than a tempered one despite being part of the same effect.

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No, U'loonh's mother was very, VERY tempered at that point. The person she was talking to was the player (you just opened her cage) and while I don't have the game open to get the exact transcript, she DOES say that U'loonh was promised to Ifrit to be tempered. I would venture a guess that the reason her mother was moved back to the Forgotten Springs was partly not being in the hands of the Immortal Flames (who probably would have killed her) but also because she's so badly damaged by the tempering, she's harmless. No real reason to kill someone who can't hurt anyone, plus it gives the Brotherhood of Ash a convenient guinea-pig to test their anti-tempering magic on.

As for the Flamefang leader saying he'd be Loonh Gah's slave instead, it was a fake-out. Tempering may rob a person of their free will, but it doesn't prevent someone from lying through their teeth in order to accomplish their real goals (as evidenced by the spy you uncover in Little Ala Mhigo; wouldn't be much of a spy if he openly admitted to worshiping Ifrit).

So the final reveal is that Loonh Gah was also tempered (as evidenced by her red eyes when she removes her mask). Why is she ok?

Finally finished those last quests, so I'll start chiming in. Some of this has already been stated, but for the sake of completeness I'll use my own words.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Loonh Gah's mother has been over-tempered to the point of insanity yet shows no signs of being a slave to Ifrit's will.

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You have to be pretty zealous to hand over your only child. She was definitely insane, but I think because the only thing she was aware of was Ifrit's will.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

She is also returned to Forgotten Springs to be rehabilitated.

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As far as I can see, it's more hospice than rehabilitation. I don't think they see her as much of a threat. Usually the tempered are aware, crafty, and blend in whereas she's relatively harmless, as far as we know. If you make her a sort of asylum, a gilded cage, you can give her a certain level of respect and study the nature of tempering a bit closer. I'd be surprised if they didn't also consider it a prime opportunity to test some possible cures, seeing as she's lower risk to get close to than a zealous "god warrior." Basically, what Alberel said.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The leader of the tempered Amalj'aa begs for mercy when defeated and claims that he would serve Loonh Gah instead of Ifrit if she allowed him to live. How is it possible for him to do this if he is tempered? Is he even tempered? Or is this just a ruse?

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My money's on ruse; he did call her a gullible fool, after all. The tempered amalj'aa have lost their honor and hide behind Ifrit. He'd have said anything to survive and continue basking in the glory of his god and reaping the rewards of his tainted gifts.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

We're told that he/she is blessed by Ramuh in some way and has great power and yet the Chosen One clearly isn't tempered.

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I may have skimmed past where they said the chosen one was blessed by Ramuh specifically (I'll read the quests again), but if they did, they could just be wrong. If there's a measurable cycle of "special" sylphs like this one, I'm sure they'd chalk it up to divine influence regardless of who their god is. When the Chosen One was born, it already knew how to speak and possessed some consciousness of sylvan rules and traditions. This implies a certain connectivity throughout the race. Whatever this is could be responsible for this "cycle" and their awareness of it.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

In regards to tempering, this basically contradicts everything

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I don't know if it's such a blatant contradiction. Every tempering we've witnessed was on prisoners. They were held still and Ifrit could marinate them in the daze haze for the right amount of time. If it was instant and unvarying, a primal could just walk around on blast and eating crystals from each settlement converted, no? As for the Amalj'aa, I'm not sure they know there's a cure or they're just holding the faith that there must be. Ifrit says that the soul has room but for the blessing of one - perhaps it can be removed and people have never figured out how. It's the same principle as we see in certain zombie universes - an ethical dilemma for each individual to consider - there might be a cure, so does the threat they pose make it justifiable to mow them down with extreme prejudice until we find it?

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I've heard theories that Titan doesn't temper his worshipers (and indeed, we've never seen him temper or attempt to temper anything) and if this is true then he's sustained purely from voluntary worship, some of Ifrit's worshipers may be the same way.

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I've heard this theory, as well, but statistically I don't find it very probable. Ramuh was summoned by a radical faction of sylphs that divided their very race to see him summoned, and he still tempered them as soon as he got there. In my humble opinion, we've seen far more evidence to assume they were tempered off screen than to assume that because we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened. It's possible, but I see nothing that make it more probable yet.

Plus, there's always the matter of Titan tempering people in that unreleased 1.0 quest...

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

In fact, I think the young Amalj'aa that want to join the Brotherhood of Ash aren't tempered

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Agreed. I think this is why the Brotherhood is so small - they're all that's left from ten years ago.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

So the final reveal is that Loonh Gah was also tempered (as evidenced by her red eyes when she removes her mask). Why is she ok?

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I think Loonh Gah just has the same eye and hair color as her mother and her mother's eyes weren't an effect of tempering. Lots of NPCs have red eyes.

Really? You think so? I don't believe any of the Mi'qote of Forgotten Springs have red eyes and the pacing of the scene set up the unmasking as a dramatic reveal. It was also a rather striking red that felt unnatural to me (maybe it's just me). If it turns out that that's just her natural eye color, it seems like it would be a waste of the framing and tension of that scene. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The leader of the tempered Amalj'aa begs for mercy when defeated and claims that he would serve Loonh Gah instead of Ifrit if she allowed him to live. How is it possible for him to do this if he is tempered? Is he even tempered? Or is this just a ruse?

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Definitely a ruse. The moment she turned her back, he cussed at her under his breath and was preparing another attack- which was quickly and conveniently halted by the "accidental" 100-yalm knife toss, which killed him.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

the scene set up the unmasking as a dramatic reveal.

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This assessment is entirely subjective, but I was under the impression that the reveal was, "Oh, wow, after all that attitude and tomboyism, she was hiding soft, attractive features under her mask." This is what I took her reaction to imply, because as you stop to admire what she really looks like, she flees angry and insecure as if, because she looks nothing like the Amalj'aa she lives with, they must find her hideous (hence why she donned the mask in the first place).

EDIT
Also, what he said. <points down>

I think it was mentioned early in the storyline that Loon Gah was scarred in the attack that led to her mother's capture, and that she considered herself hideous. I took the reveal scene as her showing you her scar (a nick across her nose) and thinking that it made her look ugly.