Coil lockouts & protection from Griefers

[As directed by GM Aesthphron]
I have 3 suggestions to improve this scenario of Griefers (or just people with plain bad memory on what turn they were on) locking 7 other people out of Coil turns.

1. Prevent people from joining Party Finder explicitly marked for an earlier turn.
E.g. People on turn 2 can't join Turn 1 parties.

2. If unable to enter because someone is on a different turn, let the party know who that is and where the progress is saved. If a turn has parts like Turn 1, this will matter.

3. If someone on a higher turn enters, give a confirmation dialog to the other players to confirm that they do intend to skip.

Please consider these for other similar lockouts in future as well.

It would be solved simply having a mechanics they already have... you know the "confirmation" to enter the duty?


"Your Party Leader has initiated Binding Coil of Bahamut - Turn 5" "Accept / Withdraw"

Hello,

In patch 2.3 we will be adding a confirmation for the Second Coil of Bahamut that will be displayed when the leader enters a turn. Thank you for your patience while we worked to address this!

Better late than never!

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

<--gives Tymora a ball of yarn :3

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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This....just makes a lot of sense :O

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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inb4 Selling 2nd coil raids as an FC. this will make the game better for sure

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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this is a good idea, you have my vote :O
the whole coil lockout thing never made sense to me because it means you can only enter once per week where as the loot lockout does because you can enter and help out friends and FC members

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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Funny enough i was going to suggest this as static weekly might not be viable for some players due to real life commitment such as working shift rotations etc

Also would be ideal for people who wanna unlock via DF that T6 must be beaten before T7 etc

So people don't do a huge jump from T5-T9

Weekly loot lockout would be better for this so other people can get to experience this and practise if needed to be etc even if it's via DF, because at least the choice is there for players to either DF / Static / or Party Finder

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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Didn't you only get loot locked from ct once you actually won an item ?

Similar to CT.

So once cleared, can't get drops for previously beaten/skipped turn(s) for the week. which is like CT, except if you don't win anything you get loot locked anyways. I would go even further and say you can't get Tomes for previous turns are well!

Its a super great idea!

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Originally Posted by SaitoHajime

Didn't you only get loot locked from ct once you actually won an item ?

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yes you have to win the lot to get the lock out

never understood why they didn't do it via this path (weekly lock out) cos if you think about it

if oil / sand / gear was locked to 1 loot item a week. It would still take you around 10 - 11 weeks before you have everything in ilvl110 that even with upgrading via soldiery method cos for your weapon alone, it takes 3 weeks of capped soldiery + the item to upgrade the weapon. CT you could be done within 5 weeks in theory if i'm going on past experience especially if you only stuck to one role.

I don't know why people want the actual content be one loot lookout.
Yes, sound godd, but, there are problems.

Ok, Let's farm t6, have you got the piece that you want? No, repeat turn 6. Yes, go help the same group to another member have it.

Do you need anything from t7 o t8? yes, ok, let's farm.

In two-four weeks, you have got all gear that you want and need. So, now what?

SCOB Weekly lookout it's fine

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Originally Posted by rappa

I don't know why people want the actual content be one loot lookout.
Yes, sound godd, but, there are problems.

Ok, Let's farm t6, have you got the piece that you want? No, repeat turn 6. Yes, go help the same group to another member have it.

Do you need anything from t7 o t8? yes, ok, let's farm.

In two-four weeks, you have got all gear that you want and need. So, now what?

SCOB Weekly lookout it's fine

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You misunderstand, maybe I shouldn't have said CT in my original post, since people have clung to it and automatically thought about 1 loot lock out. This is not the case, read my original short post; the word "similar" pops up just before the letters "CT".

An exact copy of the CT loot system would be terrible for Coil, please stop referring to it like this. What I suggested for loot if Coil was not a weekly lock out when cleared was a new system entirely wherein you would get loot locked after clearing regardless if you got loot or not.

This would open up Coil without any major advantages of more loot per week, can't people see? Some have already noticed and posted things that we could do if coil was not a lock out when cleared and only loot was locked.

Things like simply helping an FC member or 2 that have perhaps missed your run and do not want to pug these turns for the rest of the week, you and your group would be able to help them still. Even like someone previously said, helping a group-in-the-making get some good practice(Friends, FC members, w/e.) and a possible clear! You would be able to assist, lol.

Removing the weekly lock out and locking loot once cleared, just makes doing Coil much better. Hell, you could even be apart of multiple groups and you still aren't able to exploit any extra loot. I for one would love to be in some of the other groups in my FC. I enjoy their company and if I can make their runs I'd go for sure! Everyone loves doing Coil, outside of Coil, if I'm being honest, it's rather boring at the moment.

Anyway this was just for clarity on how loot would work. I'd really love if SE would implement this because when you read it and understand it, it just WILL make this game a lot more fun!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

In patch 2.3 we will be adding a confirmation for the Second Coil of Bahamut that will be displayed when the leader enters a turn. Thank you for your patience while we worked to address this!

---

Necrobump.

Inb4banonthatcamataguy

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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I can't tell you how many times I've said lockouts are dumb because we can't help our friends. That's the whole purpose of MMOs. Community play! You're breaking it SE, listen to Riko!

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

This would open up Coil without any major advantages of more loot per week, can't people see? Some have already noticed and posted things that we could do if coil was not a lock out when cleared and only loot was locked.

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if only the people who cleared is locked it make it easy to exploit for extra reward:
you have 2static able to clear, instead of making each roster go and then get 2of each loot you have roster 1go then you replace one member with one of roster2.
this player is not loot locked: he can get loots
repeat for each memeber of roster2
=> you got a total of 9oil/UAT/sand
for loot equity next week the roster2 doest the 1st run

in two week everybody got 1loot from each coffers +2extra loot splited.

if anybody who already cleared lock for the full party, people won't want you to come with them

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Originally Posted by rappa

I don't know why people want the actual content be one loot lookout.
Yes, sound godd, but, there are problems.

Ok, Let's farm t6, have you got the piece that you want? No, repeat turn 6. Yes, go help the same group to another member have it.

Do you need anything from t7 o t8? yes, ok, let's farm.

In two-four weeks, you have got all gear that you want and need. So, now what?

SCOB Weekly lookout it's fine

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i disagree with that statement because 2-4 weeks time for completing your gears with weekly loot would be impossible unless it was weekly lockout per turn. but if weekly lock loot were applied to all turns then it would take you around 9-10 weeks to complete your set on 1 job. and a few of us have multiple jobs with a main job we use and maybe 1-2 other jobs we use for other content etc so you wouldn't be done with SCOB 2-4 weeks as some people would still farm it for their alt jobs.

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Originally Posted by Hik0

if only the people who cleared is locked it make it easy to exploit for extra reward:
you have 2static able to clear, instead of making each roster go and then get 2of each loot you have roster 1go then you replace one member with one of roster2.
this player is not loot locked: he can get loots
repeat for each memeber of roster2
=> you got a total of 9oil/UAT/sand
for loot equity next week the roster2 doest the 1st run

in two week everybody got 1loot from each coffers +2extra loot splited.

if anybody who already cleared lock for the full party, people won't want you to come with them

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Other option is one group clear all content and sell tunr 6-9 all time, because they can do it, and the game is full of noobies, empty wallets and ilvl 100+ without experience.
Yo wanna help a friend? do rotations in your raid group or leveling another char. A lookout brings more problems than "help a friend" who can search a static or other group to raid.

This, this, a thousand times this.

My FC is very large, and we run in to a LOT of frustration because we can't assist members clearing Coil content. The lockout causes too much stress trying to organize people's life schedules, available jobs, and skill, in order to form a static. Statics are useful, but should not be required and should not restrict said members from assisting the rest of the FC.

The only reason for enforcing the current lockout is an effort to keep the High Allagan rare and sought-after. That's fine, I get that, but there's other ways of doing this. What if you restrict your ability to even LOT on loot to your first run. Much like CT, but even if you don't get a piece of gear that week, you still can't lot later that week. This would allow people to help their friends learn and clear new content as a group, but also keep the most sought-after gear as "rare" as it is today.

There is no down-side to this. Please look in to this, SE. I want to look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd really like Coil to not be a lock out when cleared. Simple reason being that I'd like to be able to assist another group in my FC when they are short on members and not have to make a new character and lvl it for this purpose.

As for how looting would work, if you've already cleared the turn once already then you'd have the looting lock out similar to CT.

This suggestion can only make the game better.

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The reason for the lockout is so people can't sell Coil 2 carries

The first week you have a lot of people in your fc helping others.
After that few weeks, they'll say: -"once again Rafflesia/melusine/random boss help? No thanks i refuse the offer."-And the drama is started again, because well geared don't wanna help others members and the rookies demand help because there are well geared and they don't want wipe in a pug or join with anothers rookies.

You have a lot of members, a raid schedule is necessary and not all people can go with friend caused by jobs, social life or other stuffs.

We have people who can raid only weekends, other not.
You can choose a raid that adapt your schedule.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ekly_lockouts/

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Dude: I would like to participate with my other jobs even after having cleared the content.

Yoshida: Do you mean as a helper?
In that instance, my worry is the breaking down of the hierachy when players who are unable to clear content overly rely on those who can and begin getting powerful items. Though I also understand that this concern is purely from a management and development point of view. This is a hard question to answer and is why we've decided to nerf contents incrementally.

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Yoshida himself said the coil lockout isn't about loot rarity, it's to prevent bads from getting carried and lotting on loot they otherwise couldn't earn. Yes, it does also negatively affect genuinely skilled players from participating in Coil because they can't find 7 other skilled players. Yes, it sucks. No, it's not likely to change.

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Originally Posted by Demus

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ekly_lockouts/



Yoshida himself said the coil lockout isn't about loot rarity, it's to prevent bads from getting carried and lotting on loot they otherwise couldn't earn. Yes, it does also negatively affect genuinely skilled players from participating in Coil because they can't find 7 other skilled players. Yes, it sucks. No, it's not likely to change.

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Then at the end of the day, if Yoshida wanted people to earn their loots, and to prevent people being carried through fights. Paid for carry should be banned...

This is a double edge sword as some people like to pay for carry and some people like earning gils for carrying them. but personally i think carry fight should be banned for this reason alone, people should earn their fights win and not rely on others to win such content!

It's funny, you know what I care about a whole lot more than people selling coil runs? The fact that when your group of friends is a slightly too big to fit into one coil group but not enough for forming two, you're put in an extremely difficult situation where people only end up being left out. I know a number of people, including RL friends who have gone and won't come back until progression raiding has a lockout which allows for helping others outside of your static. To them it's simply not worth the drama and headaches associated.

not to be rude or anything.

but my understanding on this game is that this game is catering on both casual and hardcore gamers right?

wherein binding coil ( atm its 2nd coil of bahamut to be exact) is for the players leaning towards the hardcore side. meaning this includes a few mess up work/life playtime balancing issues and the hunt for static members which may prove troublesome to some people having more or less than 8 players they wanna play with.

and for the casuals there will always be a removal of lockout (in the future).

but in my honest opinion i think this is designed in order to prolong the life of endgame content.

i just cant find a link. but i think there was something mentioned about if they remove the lockout. the next possible choice of design will be a very low percentage drop rate of loots on coil. (similar to korean mmorpg i guess) and by very low it would mean "a really low drop rate" i know some us played this kind of style on mmo before. and base on my experience, i think the current coil design is better.

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Originally Posted by Onyxium

There is no down-side to this. Please look in to this, SE. I want to look forward to it.

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Nope because SE is clearly aware that this will make coil sellable and SE have already made a stand that they are not supportive of this as it is their opinion that it ruins the spirit of the game (while they don't outright bans sells).

What people are missing due to fear of "This guy is going to get something I want that I deserve more, please don't let people help him." is what will restrict this game to a point where people will get bored so fast they will probably quit because they can't even help friends out with the content that matters.

Fear of groups selling is a poor excuse to restrict a much better way to deal with helping out your friends. And sure people are going to say "Well, after a few weeks no one will want to help eventually and get bored." This is one opinion, but it really is void when the relationships between groups of friends is different with each person, not everyone is going to act like that, lol.

People have FCs with leaders that actually build groups and can't participate after a group is made or if the group is short and now I feel like I'm just repeating the same thing over and over which I am.

The point is made, the positives out-weigh the negative, it's clear what people want and they see the what they could achieve if you made this possible.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

The point is made, the positives out-weigh the negative, it's clear what people want and they see the what they could achieve if you made this possible.

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I think you're right about this, but if there's one exploitable situation that's possible, they're not going to risk it - the community has to suffer due to it. In this case, it's too easy for a group of people to make alts to run coil. As soon as the alts clear a turn, they run it again with 7 alts and one main. Since the alts are locked, all loot goes to the main. One person switches an alt out for a main, repeat 7 more times, and everyone in that static gets all the random loot they can carry, undisputed, each week.

Yes, the good players and good intentions outweigh the negative situation, but it's an exploitable situation nonetheless. Because of that, the rest of us have to deal with it/suffer/tell SE "we promise we won't bunny hop in PvP".

It's very, very sad to say, but restrictions are the only way to ensure balance, fairness, and longevity in this case.

TBH it's not like you can't help your friend.

If your team is keen in helping your friend(s), you can schedule your raid to a Sunday or even a Monday, clear them all in a single night.

Then from Tuesday to Saturday you can bring your friend(s) in and teach them how to play all the way to the last 5% and intentionally wipe it.

Your raid could split into equal 2 halfs and bring in another raid in 2 halfs to form 2 training raids easily.

So it's not like there isn't a way to train or help your friends with what they need to learn and practice. Given that there is a way to do so, there isn't a reason for SE to do something extra to mitigate the risk or cons that they aren't keen in giving in.

All in all, it comes down on whether you want to do it or not. I have met players who does that. I came to know some great guys from FFXIV Guild on Tonberry server and they brought me in to practice T9 despite me telling them I have no experience at all and would just wipe them (they were practising divebombs at that point in time).

Well, I accepted the offer, and in approximately 3-4 hours I'm pretty familiarized with phase 1 - 3. Still dying on T4 thou but that's another matter. I learnt a great deal there and from them and with that experience and strategies, the logic behind them learnt, I bring back to my raid and now I'm guiding them to pass Heavensfall and we can progress on Divebombs together or something.

The same thing can happen to any FC. If you really had the heart to help, hold on the urge to rush for the clear and loots, bring some guys in to practice and eventually they can do the same thing and pass down the knowledge and experience down the line.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

If you really had the heart to help, hold on the urge to rush for the clear and loots, bring some guys in to practice and eventually they can do the same thing and pass down the knowledge and experience down the line.

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In my case it's not a rush, it's the time zone difference and peoples work schedule that makes it almost impossible to do what you suggested, lol. But it's ok, I'm over this. I just hope that more real End Game content in future won't be restricted so badly the way it is now. I'm sure they(SE) can figure something better out.

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Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

In this case, it's too easy for a group of people to make alts to run coil. As soon as the alts clear a turn, they run it again with 7 alts and one main. Since the alts are locked, all loot goes to the main. One person switches an alt out for a main, repeat 7 more times, and everyone in that static gets all the random loot they can carry, undisputed, each week.

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So what's stopping the same enterprising group with the time on their hands from doing this already, only difference being that each member'll have eight alts instead of one that they switch with?

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Originally Posted by Enepttastic

So what's stopping the same enterprising group with the time on their hands from doing this already, only difference being that each member'll have eight alts instead of one that they switch with?

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Are... are you serious? Eight coil-ready alts versus one? You honestly don't see what's stopping someone from preparing eight coil ready alts versus one?

If someone has eight coil-ready alts and pulled together seven other people, each with eight coil-ready alts... well, give them whatever loot they want. They certainly deserve it.

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Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

... (about coil lockout)

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I duno... That could be abused pretty bad...

Like someone already mentioned, take an FC/LS with 16 members (2 coil groups)

Week 1: Group 1 does coil as intended, and for the rest of the week they run it 8 more times, always with just 1 person from group 2. Everyone in group 2 has granted ALL DROPS PER TURN for that week.

Week 2: Group 2 does coil as intended, ...

Sure, still need the RNG to play along to get your most wanted drops, but the odds are vastly increasing...

Also, not to mention all the people that would start selling coil clears and gear drops...

The only thing i could see is a special training instance. With no drops, no loot, no tomes, no archievments, nothing. But maybe without time limit and adjustable echo buff. You would only be able to enter turns you have unlocked by playing the "real" coil, so even if you beat the highest training turn you have unlocked, you still would have to beat the "real" one to get access to the next turn. This would be only for training and helping others to get better, but you could enter with anyone and as often as you want.