Please adjust Directional requirements for DRG to match how it is for MNK

Currently, MNK still gets the buff/debuff/"combo" for all directional attacks (Bootshine, True Strike, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, Snap Punch, Demolish) even when done from the incorrect position. This means that even if they are unable to reach the desired position (flank/rear) in time, or at all in the case of rear attacks on Demon Wall, they still get their "combo" at reduced potency.

When DRG uses Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive from the wrong side, that's it. Nothing happens. You get the nerfed potency from doing it wrong, don't get the buff from Heavy Thrust, and Impulse Drive's combo doesn't start. Since Impulse Drive leads to Disembowel, this means that any content where an enemy's rear is unavailable is hurting DRG's potential DPS in a very major way. Which isn't to say MNK doesn't suffer at all, but again MNK's issues don't impair their "combo" flow.

I'm proposing that DRG's directional requirements be made optional as they are for MNK. I mostly bring this up out of concern for the upcoming Leviathan primal fight, which initially looks to be such that his rear is not exposed to players.

Edit: For extra emphasis/clarity:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I'm speaking to a hypothetical enemy that is like Demon Wall, where you CAN'T do rear attacks. Obviously we know nothing about Leviathan other than a 20 second teaser, but from just initial impressions it looks like it could be the same as Demon Wall: no rear attacks.

---

Only thing worse than a 100 potency impulse drive is having to use the skill AGAIN because it doesn't even let you use Disembowel afterwards.

Hope it could happen ;(

I agree completely on this. It's beyond annoying to play DRG because so often an enemy is moved, either by the tank being bad or things just happening, or the boss turns around to do something (Titan and Ifrit come to mind). And it messes up the rotation on DRG so much because you have to then spend another long GCD to attempt to get the buff/debuff you wanted in the first place. It's one reason why DRG feels like a chore and making me want to level up SMN and play with that instead. Far less stressful and annoying things to deal with.

And with fights like demon wall we're at a severe disadvantage. No disembowel is a good chunk of DPS dropped through it's debuff, along with not even being able to use chaos thrust.

Great idea, once TT-VP-FT also require positions to do full potency as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

Great idea, once TT-VP-FT also require positions to do full potency as well.

---

Funny attempt at trying to make it sound "fair" but you must consider you won't get to do those IF you mess up the Heavy thrust and chaos thrust combo.

I wish they'd give us the buff from PvP that we can use to ignore the positional requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mardel

Funny attempt at trying to make it sound "fair" but you must consider you won't get to do those IF you mess up the Heavy thrust and chaos thrust combo.

---

I do consider that. I'm just saying that the "optional" positions come with the design that all monk combo abilities have positional requirements.
So you want the less punishing system, you should have to dance like monks too.

Decent trade right?
Currently.
MNK pro - Positionals are only potency bonuses rather than requirements.
MNK con - All combo moves have this bonus.

DRG pro - Only 2 positionals
DRG con - Much more punishing if positional is missed.

The DRG system feels fairly clunky, I'd admit. But if you want the same positionals as the MNK, then add them to all your moves as well since that's the balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mardel

Funny attempt at trying to make it sound "fair"

---

Well that is the concept, Dragoons have fewer moves with positional requirements but are more heavily punished for failing to be in the correct position. Monks have tons of postional requirements but lose less on each individual miss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

I do consider that. I'm just saying that the "optional" positions come with the design that all monk combo abilities have positional requirements.
So you want the less punishing system, you should have to dance like monks too.

Decent trade right?
Currently.
MNK pro - Positionals are only potency bonuses rather than requirements.
MNK con - All combo moves have this bonus.

DRG pro - Only 2 positionals
DRG con - Much more punishing if positional is missed.

The DRG system feels fairly clunky, I'd admit. But if you want the same positionals as the MNK, then add them to all your moves as well since that's the balance.

---

I agree on that point, though I think drg should have been more side oriented.

If you can't get an attack from the correct direction you can use the combo that doesn't need a direction.

Doing that gives you plenty of potency. True thrust vorpal thrust full thrust. 150 > 200 > 330. Your damage is fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akirakogami

If you can't get an attack from the correct direction you can use the combo that doesn't need a direction.

Doing that gives you plenty of potency. True thrust vorpal thrust full thrust. 150 > 200 > 330. Your damage is fine.

---

You're missing the point. Or rather, missing Disembowel's debuff, and Chaos Thrust combo being 180 > 220 > 500!.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You're missing the point. Or rather, missing Disembowel's debuff, and Chaos Thrust combo being 180 > 220 > 500!.

---

Exactly. Without disembowel drg's dmg takes a nose dive >.>

Another way would to make to piercing debeff an additional affect with or without being comboed. They could reduce its duration without using impulse drive first. Not that it would make people use that combo any less with the potency it puts out, but it wouldn't hurt as bad as not having it. This hurts bards too. Monk only have to worry about themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

I do consider that. I'm just saying that the "optional" positions come with the design that all monk combo abilities have positional requirements.
So you want the less punishing system, you should have to dance like monks too.

Decent trade right?
Currently.
MNK pro - Positionals are only potency bonuses rather than requirements.
MNK con - All combo moves have this bonus.

DRG pro - Only 2 positionals
DRG con - Much more punishing if positional is missed.

---

This guy is right. Stop crying and play monk if you don't like the way dragoon works. If they make the changes the OP is suggesting then Monk = Dragoon and the game is over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

This guy is right. Stop crying and play monk if you don't like the way dragoon works. If they make the changes the OP is suggesting then Monk = Dragoon and the game is over.

---

I'm not sure what you mean by this if you think they aren't already more or less equal. Or why it would be the end of the world if they were.

I sort of agree this can be put in place to making playing DRG more pleasant. But for the most part you can adjust to it by switching to a non optimal rotation when enemies are moving or about to run. Melee is supposed to take punishment in those cases that's why we have a higher base damage.

You misunderstand, I know that you can work around not doing the optimal combo "right now" on DRG.

I'm speaking to a hypothetical enemy that is like Demon Wall, where you CAN'T do rear attacks. Obviously we know nothing about Leviathan other than a 20 second teaser, but from just initial impressions it looks like it could be the same as Demon Wall: no rear attacks.

As a Dragoon, I think this is unnecessary. Yes, it could be good, and yes, I totally HATE having to use impulse drive AGAIN because I moved a goddamn step more to the left and missed the flank instead of the rear...but then again I think it's not necessary at all. Monks have a different playstyle, and the reason they continue their chains even though they missed the position is that without greased lightning they do overall less dps than us DRG. Like, a lot less. Combos are different from monks forms...also, did you know that they can't change forms if they deal 0 damage? I noticed that hitting a stoneskinned target didn't make me change form. I don't know if this happens if the target is also invulnerable (example, primals after/during signature attacks), but I think nonetheless that this is a weakness too since we just need to hit the target - regardless of whether we actually dealt damage or not. This applies to ALL the classes who use combos...which is to say, monks don't have combos. There is no reason for us to have our combos changed to forms, because this is a gimmick of the PGL/MNK and exclusive to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I noticed that hitting a stoneskinned target didn't make me change form. I don't know if this happens if the target is also invulnerable (example, primals after/during signature attacks),

---

Yea, we can't "combo" invulnerable targets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

we just need to hit the target - regardless of whether we actually dealt damage or not. This applies to ALL the classes who use combos...which is to say, monks don't have combos.

---

I didn't know that. So PLD, WAR, DRG can combo off an enemy when dealing no damage, such as to stoneskin/invulnerbility? The few times I ever did a strat in T4 that had me hitting the Solidier, I was stuck in a Bootshine spam and no GL. It was horrible. I assumed it was the same for everyone.

Thanks for the info. That really shows that they are just two different systems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

I do consider that. I'm just saying that the "optional" positions come with the design that all monk combo abilities have positional requirements.
So you want the less punishing system, you should have to dance like monks too.

Decent trade right?
Currently.
MNK pro - Positionals are only potency bonuses rather than requirements.
MNK con - All combo moves have this bonus.

DRG pro - Only 2 positionals
DRG con - Much more punishing if positional is missed.

The DRG system feels fairly clunky, I'd admit. But if you want the same positionals as the MNK, then add them to all your moves as well since that's the balance.

---

Or they could stop making fights that automatically shut down specific classes.

Well lets just say this is one reason why i prefer to play monk when doing duty finder with random group.
Much, much more relaxing.

They actually fixed the stoneskin bug with 2.1 though.
We can "combo" fine on stoneskin now.

After thinking about it more. They need to change these 4 skills:

Feint
Disembowel
Ring of Talons
Doom Spike

My suggestions:

Feint should swap with Disembowel and give the piercing debuff. This way if you run into a monster that you cannot get behind, demon wall, it would not screw us over too much.

Disembowel gives the slow instead of Feint. Validates actually having slow on the mob granted it doesn't naturally resist.

Ring of Talons should give a weaker AoE piercing debuff or possibly another debuff. IF it gives the piercing debuff the potency should be lowered.

Doom Spike still needs to be buffed by 10-20 potency, have potentially less tp drain, or give a mini dot. Anything really to make it a "different" kind of AoE when compared to RoT (YES, I know one is a line and another is a circle but in most fights you do AoE it is a trivial matter lol)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mardel

Feint should swap with Disembowel and give the piercing debuff. This way if you run into a monster that you cannot get behind, demon wall, it would not screw us over too much.

Disembowel gives the slow instead of Feint. Validates actually having slow on the mob granted it doesn't naturally resist.

---

No, please don't do that. This would mess with our rotation too much and requires us to incorporate a low-DPS skill into our rotation, that hasn't been part of the rotation before.

Quote:

---

And with fights like demon wall we're at a severe disadvantage.

---

I've yet to be outdps'd by anything but summoner on the demon wall, you guys are doin it wrong. There's no huge disadvantage there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You're missing the point. Or rather, missing Disembowel's debuff, and Chaos Thrust combo being 180 > 220 > 500!.

---

more than heavy shot > heavy shot > heavy shot combo. 150 > 150 > 150

thats my point.

It's fine as-is, quit crying.

Demon Wall is the only enemy in the game that removes rear-positionals from the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I'm speaking to a hypothetical enemy that is like Demon Wall, where you CAN'T do rear attacks. Obviously we know nothing about Leviathan other than a 20 second teaser, but from just initial impressions it looks like it could be the same as Demon Wall: no rear attacks.

---

Do I need to keep repeating this? This is "crying"?

I like the separation between DRG and MNK. The classes are distinct in the current configuration. Changing them to be too much like the other will push us into the realm of all melee damage being cookie-cutter, something nobody wants.

Vote to remain as they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

This is "crying"?

---

Yes.

10ch

The need for strict positional attacks is a pretty low skill requirement when you consider that DRG does not have to deal with a GL type of buff. If the levi fight is in fact like Demon Wall then it doesn't matter that MNK can use all it's combos/debuffs and DRG can't because both jobs will under preform compared to ranged jobs that will be able to preform at full potential for the full duration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mardel

After thinking about it more. They need to change these 4 skills:

Feint
Disembowel
Ring of Talons
Doom Spike

My suggestions:

Feint should swap with Disembowel and give the piercing debuff. This way if you run into a monster that you cannot get behind, demon wall, it would not screw us over too much.

Disembowel gives the slow instead of Feint. Validates actually having slow on the mob granted it doesn't naturally resist.

Ring of Talons should give a weaker AoE piercing debuff or possibly another debuff. IF it gives the piercing debuff the potency should be lowered.

Doom Spike still needs to be buffed by 10-20 potency, have potentially less tp drain, or give a mini dot. Anything really to make it a "different" kind of AoE when compared to RoT (YES, I know one is a line and another is a circle but in most fights you do AoE it is a trivial matter lol)

---

I do not agree with these. Adding a slow as a standard rotation ability will make the target resistant to slow for the entire fight essentially. This is bad, as you cannot use a slow when necessary. At the moment, its not useful in many fights... Hydra is really the only one I can think of, but if SE does decide to allow debuffs to hit bosses, this would make it a terrible effect.

Making Feint give a piercing debuff is also a bad idea because our rotations no longer flow and we would use more TP than we currently do. Taking it off global and removing TP cost would be a decent idea though, as we could then apply the debuff to adds as they spawned without breaking rotation.

Ring of Thorns and Doom Spike are fine as is atm, not because of there potency and aoe field, but because of there combo requirements. They each have there uses, where RoT is less AOE dps but conserves slightly more TP (when combo spammed) and DS is more damage but drains TP much faster. In a fight like Turn IV this isn't a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akirakogami

If you can't get an attack from the correct direction you can use the combo that doesn't need a direction.

Doing that gives you plenty of potency. True thrust vorpal thrust full thrust. 150 > 200 > 330. Your damage is fine.

---

This /10chars

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Denmark

The need for strict positional attacks is a pretty low skill requirement when you consider that DRG does not have to deal with a GL type of buff. If the levi fight is in fact like Demon Wall then it doesn't matter that MNK can use all it's combos/debuffs and DRG can't because both jobs will under preform compared to ranged jobs that will be able to preform at full potential for the full duration.

---

And that's a problem in its own right. There's already an unhealthy amount of misconception that melee DPS are terrible on EX primals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Itseotle

I do not agree with these. Adding a slow as a standard rotation ability will make the target resistant to slow for the entire fight essentially. This is bad, as you cannot use a slow when necessary. At the moment, its not useful in many fights... Hydra is really the only one I can think of, but if SE does decide to allow debuffs to hit bosses, this would make it a terrible effect.

Making Feint give a piercing debuff is also a bad idea because our rotations no longer flow and we would use more TP than we currently do. Taking it off global and removing TP cost would be a decent idea though, as we could then apply the debuff to adds as they spawned without breaking rotation.

Ring of Thorns and Doom Spike are fine as is atm, not because of there potency and aoe field, but because of there combo requirements. They each have there uses, where RoT is less AOE dps but conserves slightly more TP (when combo spammed) and DS is more damage but drains TP much faster. In a fight like Turn IV this isn't a good thing.

---

Ya I'll revise my statement then (I did it early in the morning like 2am so I was about to go to bed.)


I agree on a few points and counter some others.

1. You are right about feint/disembowel would make our rotation awkward unless the piercing debuff was off GCD. Thus why not make our full thrust combo branch into something else as a possibility that can give the piercing debuff? (Like how storm's eye/path work)

2. One of our combo's giving slow would probably never harm a boss fight. Nearly all bosses resist and it would be foolish of them to make it otherwise. (Plus I don't think I've ever used feint outside dicking around... usually just a waste of time -.-http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...ilies/wink.png

3. I do know that DS/RoT are different in terms of TP consumption ect, but like you said in T4 running out of tp would be a bad thing. HOWEVER if they had a small piercing debuff attached to the combo version of RoT we wouldn't worry about spamming it as much because we would be doing slightly more damage. So would the bards.




Food for thought:
Currently in a flat dps race monk > us. UNLESS we have like 2 bards in the PT to make up for the DPS difference via piercing debuff. This means that 2 brd, 1 drg to overtake mnk + X + X.


One of the big reasons I suggest some changes is due to how the future classes may come to play, example a Gun based class. What kind of damage will they be? Blunt? Piercing? If blunt, well there goes another case of MNK > DRG because they will not only do more damage than us but also boost their damage.


Final Note: Not crying about our current situation. In fact it doesn't bother me considering I have blm just as geared, but if they are going to try and make classes not have a major advantage over another they should consider cleaning up some trash skills/abilities they are giving jobs currently.

Quote:

---

Currently in a flat dps race monk > us. UNLESS we have like 2 bards in the PT to make up for the DPS difference via piercing debuff.

---

Pretty sure a DRG will match a MNK's group DPS with just 1 BRD in the party.

Quote:

---

well there goes another case of MNK > DRG because they will not only do more damage than us but also boost their damage.

---

The other side of the coin is that Monks are much less resilient against fight mechanics. Several mechanics such as Twintania stun, conflag, Titan Gaol, etc can virtually guarantee a drop in GL. DRGs generally DGAF. In addition, the controlled burst of a DRG is more tactically effective in many fight situations (e.g. bursting adds).

As a result, the DRG and MNK are both in pretty good positions. MNKs have more sustained ST DPS and better defensive utility (Int debuff and traited Mantra). DRGs have more AOE DPS, more ST burst, are resilient against fight mechanics, and have better offensive utility (pierce debuff).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

It's fine as-is, quit crying.

Demon Wall is the only enemy in the game that removes rear-positionals from the table.

---

For now... that is kind of the point of this thread. New encounters may also incorporate these kinds of mechanics. On a generally melee unfriendly game as it is, having a fight like leviathan remove rear-positionals for some to all of the encounter would pretty much screw over DRGs. I can guarantee you if rear pos attacks aren't available for Levi EX nobody will be taking seriously gimped DRGs (well nobody with half a brain that is).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

And that's a problem in its own right. There's already an unhealthy amount of misconception that melee DPS are terrible on EX primals.

---

I don't disagree that it could very well be a problem I simply think that the mechanics of how fights work and the risk Vs. reward for melee/Ranged need an update more than something like allowing me to freely add disembowel whenever I feel like it. That is my fault for not properly expressing what I was thinking at the time though.

Curious how that Leviathan fight is gonna work if he's gonna be hanging out on the side of the boat the whole time. Hope this doesn't cause problems for DRG/MNK.

doing it in the rear really feels so much pleasure?
I kinda prefer doing it in front.
Maybe they should just seriously be thinking about making impulse drive works when either in front or back.