WAR > PLD

Discuss WAR comparison to PLD

The enmity argument is pointless when both tanks can hold more than enough to ensure DPS or healers do not take hate from them.

As for the 2 tanks competing with each other - it's called communication.

PLD is simple, straightforward, and most importantly it is safe. It is far more defensive than WAR and also more difficult to screw up on. WAR has greater potential than PLD, but also requires more from the player.

Going into an encounter where you are very familiar with the content already and have a strategy worked out, WAR will excel. For progression pushes, though, the safety net of PLD is very desirable.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

WAR has WAY more HP than PLD

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Warrior takes more damage than Paladin. Hmm, indeed.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

As the title states, as a PLD I find it somewhat uncomfortable that no matter how long I've been building up hate, a WAR can just come along and peel it off.

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No.

Unless he's using Provoke or you're afk'ing halfway through the fight.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

WAR can out DPS PLD.
WAR can generate more hate than PLD.
WAR has WAY more HP than PLD

PLD.... can mitigate damage better...

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You also forgot that PLD has way better utility than a WAR: Cover, Stoneskin, Silence (Spirits Within), Pacification (Shield Swipe). It's because of this that WAR ends up dealing more damage: WAR gets more damage in exchange for PLD getting more utility.

As to the whole "WAR has more hp" thing, yes, WAR has more explicit hp because PLD has more damage reduction, which actually ends up meaning that PLD and WAR have the exact same effective hit points. It's also why WAR has +healing as well: PLD's DR is the equivalent of 25% +hp and 25% +healing so it *has* to be there to render equivalence. The same follows suit with the relevant CD suites: the WAR CDs don't do *nearly* as much as the PLD CDs do. The only WAR CD that gets anywhere close to doing what a PLD CD does is Vengeance (30% DR for 15 seconds every 120) but it's still beaten out by the most "basic" of the PLD CDs, Rampart (20% DR for 20 seconds every 90).

As to the whole "WAR takes enmity off of me every time no matter what I do", if you're having enmity problems against anyone, you're doing it wrong. Properly played, a WAR and a PLD should be neck and neck with their enmity generation, with WAR having a burstier enmity profile (Unchained and Berserk for 20 seconds every 120 seconds for ~85-90% +dam but can only be used in "safe" scenarios when you won't need the Wrath stacks or will not be affected by the Pacification; BB>BB>SP generates lots of enmity at the start but SP generates negligible amounts) and PLD having a very stable one (FoF is 30% +dam for 30 seconds every 90 seconds and can be used on CD without any real tactical consideration; RoH spam is straight up high enmity all the time). An equally matched PLD and WAR trying to steal enmity off of each other will regularly cycle who has it based upon where they are in their enmity generation cycle.

In short, your complaints simply indicate exactly how little you know about the tank classes. If you're having problems with other tanks, especially WARs, regularly pulling off of you, it's because *you* are doing something wrong (I've pulled off of other tanks when all I was doing was spamming SE>SP before, which should never happen). Rather than complaining that WARs are overpowered and PLDs need buffs or whatever (which seems to be what you're asking for here unless you just felt like whining purposelessly) when the entire rest of the game and the numbers themselves agree that they are *exceptionally* well balanced, look at what *you* are doing wrong and fix it.

Granted WAR can generate much more threat initially and has quicker snap threat capabilities since 2.1 but part of being good at tanking is managing threat. If that WAR isn't throttling threat to help you into your tank switch on fights like EX primals, Coil or Ultima then that's his failing. Communication is key and I hate tanks that feel the need to prove they're the most badass dog in the park.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

As the title states, as a PLD I find it somewhat uncomfortable that no matter how long I've been building up hate, a WAR can just come along and peel it off.

This is especially annoying in raids where if a WAR wants to be MT, then by god, he will be MT, because there is absolutely nothing any PLD can do to gain it back.

Almost as if trolling us :[

WAR can out DPS PLD.
WAR can generate more hate than PLD.
WAR has WAY more HP than PLD


PLD.... can mitigate damage better...


HMMMMMmMMmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMM

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Clearly you've never played WAR. All the time I have to deal with PLD's spamming their one combo ripping threat off me when I MT because I'm trying to maintain my buffs/debuffs. It goes both ways, it's not so much a "This job vs that job" argument as a bad tanks unable to maintain their threat. Honestly when I OT I never rip threat off because I just use my other 2 combos to help DPS/debuff the enemy.

You're just a bad PLD, sry to be so blunt.

Great a another kid from wow, trolling in ff14 forums

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Originally Posted by Rockaholic

Great a another kid from wow, trolling in ff14 forums

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I like to think these kinds of threads aren't started by trolls, that way I can laugh at their stupidity more.

Really ?

Seriously though if you have a paladin + warrior in a 8 man and you are not working as one, you are missing one of the best shows in the tanking world on any game.
You can make things just sit there while you /dance

On-topic a good warrior can pull hate ....... But then you either must be doing something wrong or you are not communicating with you "partner"
Let the warrior tank a pull, sit back and stun things for him you will see you can both rotate agro and entertain your party, this is not a one man show and it is not intended to be.

Well war dose have better hate it's just a matter if the war is being smart or not, heh.
In most situations Pld>War.
As a example in DR this evening I asked if the other tank wanted to MT(War), he pretty much said "we can fight for it", lol. Then only spammed BB combo, idc really if your ilv80 or w/e(guesstimation) war wants to tank over my ilv90 pld just don't be a duschbag about it and only spam BB combo like you a better tank, and be like i win lol..

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

No.

Unless he's using Provoke or you're afk'ing halfway through the fight.

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Was about to say... What a PLD does in one combo, requires 2 from a WAR, one of which doesn't have the enmity modifier.

Also, last I checked the DPS from tank-specced WARs/PLDs aren't exactly far from each other.

OP is high.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Was about to say... What a PLD does in one combo, requires 2 from a WAR, one of which doesn't have the enmity modifier.

Also, last I checked the DPS from tank-specced WARs/PLDs aren't exactly far from each other.

OP is high.

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Unless the war is only spamming BB combo like a nub and not fully using war to its potential, The DPS difference is so small it's not really worth discussion. War has more burst but sustained DPS is not that much different.

I have both WAR and PLD to 50 , guess which one I play the most :)

The reason WAR has more ways to rip hate off you is because we need to keep up a debuff with a combo that has no enmity multiplier, whereas PLD has a strength down debuff attatched to their enmity combo. If a WAR isn't completely horrible, they won't rip hate off you, though. As long as you're using FoF and your enmity combo and I'm cycling between Path, Eye, and (potentially) Fracture along with a few IBs, Unchaineds, Berserks, and Internal Releases I still shouldn't rip hate off you unless I'm way over your gear level.

Also same eHP etc etc, infact you get more eHP with a WAR present as you'll have a constant -10% mitigation on top of your default -20%. So yeah, relax.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

You're just a bad PLD, sry to be so blunt.

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he doesnt even have a 50 PLD or WAR for that matter..

I've had a WAR provoke off me constantly during a Prae Duty Roulette because "I want to make sure I have aggro if you die". He also stood right beside me so took unnecessary damage. He was a low ilevel and obviously quite new.

That's the only time I've had a WAR take hate off me as MT. The reason for that - Communication.

If he's MT I watch my hate. If I'm MT they'll watch theirs. If it's a free for all and he looks like he wants to tank I'll jump into Sword Oath and DPS instead. Doesn't bother me.

Well, damn. This community just shows it's true colors more and more, day by day.
You say I'm a bad PLD. Perhaps... I'm legitimately trying to understand the mechanics here. For the record my Avg. iLvl right now is 80.
Let's use iLvl 80, and CT as baselines for these comparisons.
As a paladin, entering a boss battle:

1. Shield Toss to 'tag'
2. Provoke
3. Flash
4. Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone

First Skill used is Rampart, then cycle Convalescence, Bulwark, and Sentinel.
Aside from that I'm spamming my aggro combo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's not much more to it than that as far as a single mob battle goes.
What I'm talking about, specifically, is while going through this rotation (above) a WAR can come and within 5 seconds has out-aggro'd me. Even when there's clearly no need for it.

Telling me "i'm doing it wrong" is pretty retarded considering the cookie cutter nature of this game.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

You're just a bad PLD, sry to be so blunt.

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Cool story bro.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

Telling me "i'm doing it wrong" is pretty retarded considering the cookie cutter nature of this game.

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If you're keeping up your rotations efficiently, the only way a warrior is going to peel aggro from you easily is if they out gear you, otherwise it's pretty much neck and neck.

You either didn't notice the WAR's gear or you wee not being efficient with you rotations.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

Telling me "i'm doing it wrong" is pretty retarded considering the cookie cutter nature of this game.

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You shouldn't really be using Provoke at all unless you lose aggro entirely. It does not build any hate, it just puts you +1 enmity above the leader which is nothing if you are the leader, and not much at all if you aren't.

I'm Warrior main but concept is the same for ST pulls: Use Fight or Flight>Shield Lob>RoH Combo. Flash isn't going to build a ton of hate, so it's almost wasting a GCD compared to a War who will not be using it. It's probably better to use Flash after RoH combo, but mainly use it for the damage mitigation not ST threat.

I normally use provoke initially because there is always at least one or two impatient DPS who throw out a nuke before aggro has been well established. When tanking a single mob that doesn't involve switching between tanks, I shouldn't have to use provoke at all, which is why I dont mind tossing it out initially and waiting for its CD. Also, IIRC Provoke is not on the same GCD as the rest of my abilities. So it generally just buys me a few seconds to get my first RoH combo off without losing aggro immediately.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Clearly you've never played WAR. All the time I have to deal with PLD's spamming their one combo ripping threat off me when I MT because I'm trying to maintain my buffs/debuffs. It goes both ways, it's not so much a "This job vs that job" argument as a bad tanks unable to maintain their threat. Honestly when I OT I never rip threat off because I just use my other 2 combos to help DPS/debuff the enemy.

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Pretty much this.

If not maintanking I could spam hate combo all day long and would grab aggro for sure. Even easier if I keep Defiance or Shield Oath up.
Or, I could deactivate Defiance or switch to Sword Oath and help debuffing the mob or cast SS on the MT or other important or weakened party members.

Now, if I grab aggro without Defiance or Shield Oath and without spamming hate combo or other hate generating abilities, then the other tank is bad.

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

I normally use provoke initially because there is always at least one or two impatient DPS who throw out a nuke before aggro has been well established. When tanking a single mob that doesn't involve switching between tanks, I shouldn't have to use provoke at all, which is why I dont mind tossing it out initially and waiting for its CD. Also, IIRC Provoke is not on the same GCD as the rest of my abilities. So it generally just buys me a few seconds to get my first RoH combo off without losing aggro immediately.

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Those are not valid points for using Provoke lol. It's +1 enmity, which isn't building any sort of hate whatsoever. Literally sneezing on the mob is going to build more enmity than Provoke :D (it's intended use is solely stealing hate back if you lose it, and tank swaps obviously)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Those are not valid points for using Provoke lol. It's +1 enmity, which isn't building any sort of hate whatsoever. Literally sneezing on the mob is going to build more enmity than Provoke :D (it's intended use is solely stealing hate back if you lose it, and tank swaps obviously)

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Ok, i realize the behavior of Provoke in XIV is much different than was in XI. But to make sure I understand...

Me: Shield Lob > <t>
BLM: Fire III <t> (now has aggro)
Me: Provoke <t> (now I have aggro)

This is not accurate? Again I use provoke when I raid because there is always some noob prematurely nuking... Not routinely, for instance, when I do coil with my static...

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

Ok, i realize the behavior of Provoke in XIV is much different than was in XI. But to make sure I understand...

Me: Shield Lob > <t>
BLM: Fire III <t> (now has aggro)
Me: Provoke <t> (now I have aggro)

This is not accurate? Again I use provoke when I raid because there is always some noob prematurely nuking... Not routinely, for instance, when I do coil with my static...

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This is accurate sometimes yes, and it's fine. You use provoke as you need to to regain control. That's what it's there for.

Point still stands: there's nothing I can do that you cannot, and I don't have this issue, so unless you're being outgeared it's something to do with the efficiency of your rotation.

Silly topic is silly. The revisions to War in 2.1 were well done, there is no PLD > WAR or War > PLD these days, it's PLD + WAR. It sounds like you are doing things wrong overall, and should have made a constructive thread asking for help on rotation, or opinions on why you were losing threat. So if you are wondering why people are being negative, it is from the start your negative and wrong impression implied at the start of the thread.

Others have said it, but PLD & WAR doing rotations correctly are essentially neck and neck. You were out geared, or the WAR was dumb, either one is no reason to start this thread.

As far as your rotation, ST boss pull should be: FoF > Shield Lob > Spirits Within > Fast Blade > CoS > Savage > Halone > Halone combos. Flash should never be in your ST rotation except to blind for big hits on bosses applicable (not a lot these days). One big reason a Warrior will be taking hate on you (especially well geared) is because of that Flash at the start. PLD hate is back loaded into Halone, if you are starting your main generating combo late, while the WAR starts his early on you, then you'll be playing catch up. If you aren't using FoF at the start, and the WAR is using Zerk + Unchained.. well ya WAR wanted to MT, most likely dumb if its established you are the MT. I've not seen a DD take hate off pulls with the skill order I listed above, granted if DD went balls out full dumb dumb it might be possible, but that is not a common occurrence (I haven't seen it post 2.1 once).

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Originally Posted by Traek

One big reason a Warrior will be taking hate on you (especially well geared) is because of that Flash at the start. PLD hate is back loaded into Halone, if you are starting your main generating combo late, while the WAR starts his early on you, then you'll be playing catch up.

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I think this is exactly what's happening here. Thanks for helping me see that. I'm going to adjust my rotation accordingly and test. Thanks to the handful who contributed some useful information to this thread.

I understand that the tone of the original post was out-of-line. My apologies, but it was getting extremely frustrating. Thanks for reading :)

as PLD and WAR I've never had hate stripped from me at the start of a fight, like ever. Only time I use voke is during 'ruda ex spiny plume & tank swaps

Tenchar limit

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Originally Posted by BlackRosesXIV

This is especially annoying in raids where if a WAR wants to be MT, then by god, he will be MT, because there is absolutely nothing any PLD can do to gain it back.

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Who cares? A tank has threat. Sounds more like a personal thing than a game thing. Now if your supposed to be swapping and it isnt happen... then its a fail on the tank TEAM in the raid.

Can't edit on mobile to cheat limit :(

Unchained and fight or flight are directly balanced against each other, war has a slight edge with berserk but it's small and as others have said they cant / shouldn't just spam butcher's block.

Also, warrior doesn't have more hp than paladin. At least not much (a few vit off soul crystal is about it.) both classes have the same effective hp modifier (+25%).

Paladin has a effective healing advantage (+25% vs defiance +20%, because of 20% DR that means every point of healing on a pld restores 1.25 points of damage vs 1.20 on a war).

Paladin has a huge passive mitigation advantage from shield. (This is the reason we always tank twin with old, in equal gear the pld just takes way less mana to keep up.)


Your pull is, in fact. Wrong. Regardless of what the dd do they should never be able to turn the mob off you.

Fog ->Lob -> CoS during gcd -> fast -> spirits during gcd -> savage -> rage.

Lob has a small modifier on it. So unless they hit for upwards of 6-800 on their first hit, there is no chance of a pull. A fully prebuffed bard won\\\\'t break 600 even on a crit, blm can\\\\'t already be in astral fire 3, no other class has that strong an opener.


Warriors only advantage is in aoe tanking. Mostly same threat over time, but war will do damage. And the occasional big pretty number.

I'm a War. I love Wars. I hate Plds. But this thread is so stupid

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Fog ->Lob -> CoS during gcd -> fast -> spirits during gcd -> savage -> rage.

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I've recently had some issues with BLM pulling hate off me right at the start, especially in CT. I feel like I've managed to compensate for it with:

FoF > Lob > Halone (unstacked) > Circle > Fast > Spirits > continue combo...

I'm not sure if that's "right or not", but I'm able to front load a bit more hate on the unstacked Halone at the cost of setting my first stacked Halone back one GCD. It seems to work well for me.

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Originally Posted by JDHiro

I've recently had some issues with BLM pulling hate off me right at the start, especially in CT. I feel like I've managed to compensate for it with:

FoF > Lob > Halone (unstacked) > Circle > Fast > Spirits > continue combo...

I'm not sure if that's "right or not", but I'm able to front load a bit more hate on the unstacked Halone at the cost of setting my first stacked Halone back one GCD. It seems to work well for me.

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I never really noticed before, but our FC recently got a TS3 server, and now the BLM tells me when he's got a firestarter proc and is opening with Fire3 on a fresh mob lol.. Could be something like that happening to you

Uncombo'd Halone is OK in a bind, but I don't know about making it a habit to use like that. I'm a bit behind on coil progress compared to most folks, but I had some struggles keeping aggro on the mini-ADS adds at the start of turn 1, uncombo'd butchers block didn't last long enough to get a full rotation off. Should get used to burning offensive CDs and rotating in the off-GCD moves in between aggro combo

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Originally Posted by Traek

PLD hate is back loaded into Halone, if you are starting your main generating combo late, while the WAR starts his early on you, then you'll be playing catch up.

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It's the exact same true with a WAR tank, except with Butcher's Block instead of Rage of Halone. In fact, a PLD is going to have the advantage at the start because of their 20% damage debuff compared to WAR's 25%. On top of that, unlike PLD which can blow their damage buff right off the bat, for a WAR, because of Wrath and Maim, it's actually best for them to wait until after 2 full rotations before activating their damage buffs (Unchained, Berserk, Internal Release). WAR *could* Infuriate>Unchained>Berserk immediately, but it generates less enmity than delaying it. In *that* case, WAR is going to be hardcore frontloaded compared to PLD if they immediately go into BB spam but will be behind until shortly after their first BB is they delay the BB combo for Maim.

As such, if a PLD and equally geared WAR are both competing for aggro, the PLD is pretty much guaranteed to have aggro for the first 10-13 GCDs (pull + 3-4 full combos) unless the WAR is going straight up balls-to-the-wall from the beginning instead of trying to optimize over time. Even then, PLD would still pull ahead right around when FoF was ending because of the Pacification. WAR and PLD are neck and neck on enmity generation and, with buffs factored in, PLD actually has a slight advantage thanks to the Berserk Pacification.

The reason that the OP is losing is still most likely what you're saying: Flash is *horrible* ST enmity generation. You actually get more out of an uncombo'd Halone (Flash is ~495, Halone is 500).

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Originally Posted by Kitru

snip~

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BS

assuming equal gear and skill pally cannot outdo warriors in enmity.. do remember than warriors auto attacks do more damage than that of pally.. and BB has 20 more potency than halone (20 is small but do remember both skills have 5x modifier on enmity).. also wrath stacks contribute (albeit marginally thru crits) to enmity and with 5 stacks you gain access to steel cyclone (yes you sacrifice IB for it but its only an option if your pally is dumb enough to compete on aggro)

Mitigating damage is better than soaking heals without the heals doing anything. A large HP pool is nothing without mitigation.

It is stressful keeping aggro as a PLD though I agree, but the WAR's have to be more mindful of their own enmity if they are not MT.