My OT keep taking my Aggro

I have an alt as war,and just starting to seriously master it after my dragoon full i90.

So now i was doing ultima. When i was tanking, after i did my butcher block enmity combo. I put storm eye and path buff combo. Its a 10% less damage and push slash damage up also, so it certainly will help the party. Did inner beast a couple times for damage mitigation.

The problem comes on when buff combo progressing or i inner beast. A couple times my paladin friend keep stealing my aggro. Then i notice all the time as OT, he did his enmity combo (halone) to dps ultima, eventhough he's in sword oath stance.

I remind him, but his feedback is i cant maintain my aggro, and should do just my enmity combo only.

So enlight me,do i just have to spam enmity combo when MT ing, and put no buff at all? or you can recommend something for my friend. I new to tanking, and have no sufficient knowledge on paladin (i build my pld only to 22 for provoke). What do you paladins do actually when OTing ?

Its his fault for not watching his hate.

Im not sure if they fixed the shield oath - .> sword oath bug yet as that might contribute to it as well. Tell him to watch the hate and hold back.

start pull with infuriate > unchained > berserk if you have to

open with butchers, follow with storm's path

but if you are ever having that much trouble with aggro, it is not going to kill you to just not use storm's path/eye combo until you have a good lead.

Paladin OT need to use Riot Blade combo (while maintain halone debuff). So, it was probably his fault. On your end, you should keeup -10% damage debuff, however the +10% slashing debuff is not required if you are MT

The consequences of a dead team due to losing aggro is greater than the consequences of losing a debuff on the boss just to mitigate a little bit of damage.

your friend did not watch aggro, but on the other hand, it is true that PLD just doesn't have any OT combo
spaming riot blade which cost 70+80 TP will drain TPs of PLD very quickly
the best advice would be, telling him to spam some stone skins on you along with maintaining halone debuff and replenishing his mana with riot blades
that way he wont run out of TPs/MPs, wont pull agro + helps healers a bit

i usually focus target MT and use macro
/micon "Stoneskin"
/ac "Stoneskin" <focus>

Its a fairly common problem when running with a pld seems they all forget to do any thing but halone and that starts to become a common problem when with any random pld ot i get it all the time in CT on the last boss.

Its odd that i never have the problem with a random War doing it but all ways random PLD guess its since they only need to use halone when tanking and forget about all other attacks apart form def cool downs.

The only thing you can do is ask them in a nice way to keep an eye on there hate but if you get the same kind of pld i get when tanking most of them will call you a noob or worse and only a few will hold back a little.

it is not recommended to go for maim combos when you are MT only because those combos do not generate enmity as additional effect. So u should go for your enmity combo and when u've built enough of it you can use them but not when you pull it the first time.

Also, since you got Provoke which is a must for me when MTing there should be no problem to build enmity at start. For ct especially i let plds mt and i go on giants. I use holmgang and grab them instantly where they spawn so im fine with it :)

let PLD MT = problem solved :p
it was even more anoying before patch when they didnt know about the sword oath aggro bug

Since you are talking about ultima specifically,
* offensive CDs (berzerk, unchained...) are no factor. You might be well ahead of him at the start, but since he will provoke at some point, the aggro gap will be filled within 1 GCD. you need to generate more enemity than the PLD even without CDs.
* If only the PLD is close to you in term of enmity generation --> PLD' problem. Since using stoneskin on MT + his MP regen combo generates really low enmity, i guess he is not doing his job properly. The only things on the fight that needs to be burned are Laser beams, and they have no aggro (how convenient!)
* If DPS / healers are close to you in term of enmity generation --> Your problem.

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

let PLD MT = problem solved :p
it was even more anoying before patch when they didnt know about the sword oath aggro bug

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Until the PLD hits 5 stacks and dies.

Your storm path and howling combos don't produce as much hate as his combo's, you need to hit him with at least 3-4 BBC combos then hit him with debuffs if he's pulling hate that much. Also are you using a relic?

Also be sure your throwing in your stun attack in between the gcd on your combos

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Originally Posted by 3rdeye

So enlight me,do i just have to spam enmity combo when MT ing, and put no buff at all? or you can recommend something for my friend. I new to tanking, and have no sufficient knowledge on paladin (i build my pld only to 22 for provoke). What do you paladins do actually when OTing ?

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When a WAR is MTing, you generally just need to keep up your Storm's Path Combo (-10% enemy damage) and then Rotate your Butcher's Block constantly. The Storm's Eye combo will increase YOUR damage and the PLD's damage by 10% but nobody else's... it's a DPS gain but an enmity loss. If there are no Tankswapping mechanics and you are really pulling ahead in threat, then by all means you can rotate it in every few combos, but it's usually not "needed" and is the first thing to drop if you're trying to out-aggro someone. (When OTing, feel free to alternate between Storm's Eye and Storm's Path all the time!)

"Bad" PLDs just use their RoH combo the entire time when OTing, without watching their hate gain.
These are the ones you may need to just spam Butcher's Block for, even though dropping Storm's Path means you'll take more damage (doh!).

Technically, a "Good" PLD OT should only be using RoH on the Boss often enough to keep the debuff up (every 20 seconds) and should be regularly using Stoneskin on you and Flash on the Mob, combined with Riot Blade to recharge their TP and deal damage (most endgame bosses can be blinded by a PLD's Flash, so diminishing returns is the only thing to watch here).

The problem with a PLD spamming Riot Blade constantly is that it drains TP a lot quicker than RoH... but if the PLD is casting SS and Flash then it should be a net GAIN in TP. When MTing the only thing a PLD should be doing is the RoH combo, combined with off-GCD skills such as CoS and SW. (Occasionally a "Shield Swipe" can be useful to inflict Pacify/recharge some TP/deal some more damage without breaking their RoH combo). Casting Stoneskin whilst MTing needs a little bit of skill for a PLD and isn't viable on certain fights (due to the interruptable 3-second cast time and the need for tanks to sometimes constantly reposition themselves and/or dodge AoEs...) but as an OT the PLD really has no excuse for not "helping out" with it every now and again. Even versus Ultima.

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

let PLD MT = problem solved :p
it was even more anoying before patch when they didnt know about the sword oath aggro bug

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You have to tank swap that fight. MT/OT a pretty outdated term, more so when considering that most fights require tank swaps.

That's kinda funny, I'm usually ripping hate off our PLD when we run this, and I switch out of Defiance after swapping.

I start first with Infuriate>Unchained, 2 BB combos, then the SP and SE. Using IB right after Cereleum Vent (Stacking Debuff hits right after the vent move, and after primals are dispelled Diffractive Laser after debuff stack, so use the Cereleum Vent to time IB)

When the other tank Provokes, drop out of Defiance, SE>Berserk>SP then keep the buffs up. BB can pull hate with Berserk/debuffs up and out of Defiance so watch out.

You can choose to build some wrath stacks before swapping back to MT, I at least try to make sure I have a loaded BB combo ready to execute after Provoke. Do the BB combo a few times, Unchained if available. Try not to use Berserk unless Unchained is up (or OT, out of Defiance) to maximize it's effectiveness. Make sure you don't do more debuff combos then necessary while MT.

If you still have problems then it's the other tanks issue. I have accidentally unloaded a BB right after the other tank Provokes, it happens, but shouldn't happen every swap.

This fight has an enrage timer, if you dont do enough dmg.
As a PLD off tank, I noticed if i used stoneskin a lot, or riot blade combo a lot, we would lose to the Ultima enrage.

Then when I used Halone combo, and did more dmg, we had no issue getting him down in time (with the same groups) so clearly the OTs dps matters for this fight.

As a WAR tanking, as others suggested, unchained BB combo.
But dont forget to use your stun every time u can, along with using internal release for more dmg.

your dmg mitigation combo can last 2 rounds of BB combo.
Now you can increase your dmg (storms eye), which also increases the PLDs dmg, but they would need to change their combo rotation to match. (idk which is better, the extra 10% dmg on both a WAR and PLD, or using BB more and RoH more. Probably SE, but not sure.)

What I would suggest is if he ever does steal hate, save your butcher block combo and provoke then butchers block, You will instantly be at his hate level, plus the full butchers block, best if you have some attack bonuses, and best done after his rage of halone as it will take him a while to rebuild his combo and catch up. As a warrior I hardly ever have problems with hate but people need to learn to swap hate and to literally stop DPS if they take hate and are not supposed to. I am so tired of people stealing hate for whatever reason and instead of stopping DPS they will keep pounding away ignoring the fact they just completely negated that voke I tossed and tomahawk.

In turn 2 I notice it a lot with PUG groups the other tank vokes and starts to get three stacks then when I voke and do my combo they flash spirits withing and circle fo scorn pretty much taking hate back and now I have no voke or other cooldowns, they get to 5 stacks then die. The worst is people getting buffs and having abilities to lower hate and not using them. Like taking the path so Tanks deal less slashing damage but DRG and bard and BLM are solid yet no one uses repelling strikes or evasive jump. Not an issue anymore as I am better geared now but 1st time in coil it was very annoying.

I end up with pld that spam their halone combo when they OT as well, its really really annoying. Its even worse in tank-swap battles where your aggro is often very very close together.

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As a PLD off tank, I noticed if i used stoneskin a lot, or riot blade combo a lot, we would lose to the Ultima enrage.

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Get better DD, i didnt even know this fight had an enrage.

In ultima, the OT should not even hit the boss at all imo. Because 1. You will over-aggro the MT; 2. Your DPS as a tank doesn't amount to much anyway; and 3. You need the TP and place more focus on your surroundings (e.g. such as orb).

It is better for the OT to just pause in the middle.

Also, back to OP point/issue. It was the OT's fault. Even if you are doing badly, and even if you can't keep aggro or even if you are not using any enmity combos - The OFF-TANK should always accommodate the raid, so does everybody else for that matter. In simple terms, it is called teamwork. True as it may be that you could be the one sucking, but if you taken the initiative to work with the team, you are doing it right. Now, it's time for the team to work with you.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

I end up with pld that spam their halone combo when they OT as well, its really really annoying. Its even worse in tank-swap battles where your aggro is often very very close together.



Get better DD, i didnt even know this fight had an enrage.

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Technically u can have good DPS and still see the enrage timer.

When i Said i used Stone skin often, i literally meant, its the only thing I did, until I was out of MP, and then i used riot blade.

10 mins of that, and there is a decent amount of dmg missing from the boss (remember 10 whole mins, it adds up)

My only REAL issue, is the 3rd set of orbs. No matter what strategy a group uses, it seems random if we can survive them or not. (this includes Tank Lv3 LB + the group running into them together, while 1 healer stays behind to cure bomb them) Since the tank LB seems to do nothing to the orbs (im fairly sure it doesnt, only being together nor not) i save the LB from the Ultima cast at the 10min mark

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Technically u can have good DPS and still see the enrage timer.

When i Said i used Stone skin often, i literally meant, its the only thing I did, until I was out of MP, and then i used riot blade.

10 mins of that, and there is a decent amount of dmg missing from the boss (remember 10 whole mins, it adds up)

My only REAL issue, is the 3rd set of orbs. No matter what strategy a group uses, it seems random if we can survive them or not. (this includes Tank Lv3 LB + the group running into them together, while 1 healer stays behind to cure bomb them) Since the tank LB seems to do nothing to the orbs (im fairly sure it doesnt, only being together nor not) i save the LB from the Ultima cast at the 10min mark

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Orbs are simple, as a war, i just hit inner beast in ultima, then while im running to the orbs i pop vengence and thrill of battle and i blow up and survive 2 of them. then the party only has to deal with 1.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

In ultima, the OT should not even hit the boss at all imo. Because 1. You will over-aggro the MT; 2. Your DPS as a tank doesn't amount to much anyway; and 3. You need the TP and place more focus on your surroundings (e.g. such as orb).

It is better for the OT to just pause in the middle.

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Horrible advice.. No need for OT to be completely idle, especially when, as OT, our damage is highest. A tank doing his job will not lose aggro to OT unless the OT is intentionally trying to rip it from the MT. The OP is needing advice on how to use the tools available for doing the best job possible. Maybe you can get away with that with extremely overgeared DPS, but even a measly 50 DPS is 30,000 damage over 10 mins. That's 30,000 damage that doesn't need to be made up with overgeared DPS (oh, x2 because there are 2 tanks). TP being an issue? Last I checked no adds in Ultima need Overpower spam, I've never been close to running out of TP. TP = Non-issue for this fight.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

My only REAL issue, is the 3rd set of orbs. No matter what strategy a group uses, it seems random if we can survive them or not. (this includes Tank Lv3 LB + the group running into them together, while 1 healer stays behind to cure bomb them) Since the tank LB seems to do nothing to the orbs (im fairly sure it doesnt, only being together nor not) i save the LB from the Ultima cast at the 10min mark

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Yes, Lv3 LB reduces damage by 50%. It's still likely to one shot a DPS if they take an orb completely alone. Pop LB, OT can eat one, sometimes 2 depending on CDs, while the group eats the other 2 (or 3). It's important to keep Ultima at the North point each fight, and it's important to let the repel from Aetherial Boom position you correctly to eat the orbs. Stack behind the boss so the group doesn't get spread out by repel, and instead goes straight back, ready to eat orbs.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Horrible advice.. No need for OT to be completely idle, especially when, as OT, our damage is highest. A tank doing his job will not lose aggro to OT unless the OT is intentionally trying to rip it from the MT. The OP is needing advice on how to use the tools available for doing the best job possible. Maybe you can get away with that with extremely overgeared DPS, but even a measly 50 DPS is 30,000 damage over 10 mins. That's 30,000 damage that doesn't need to be made up with overgeared DPS (oh, x2 because there are 2 tanks). TP being an issue? Last I checked no adds in Ultima need Overpower spam, I've never been close to running out of TP. TP = Non-issue for this fight.

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Yes, but what you are talking about is a pre-made group whereby you are in sync with everyone. What my advice is aim at is for the OP situtaion and DF scenarios.

Of course you should DPS as an OT if the opportunity presents itself. However, in DF (or even some PUGs) you cannot rely on everyone doing their jobs right or performing their maximum potentials. Which in turn requires you to go out of the limb to assist others by doing what I have stated in previous post.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

TP = Non-issue for this fight.

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In most cases, you are definitely right. However, I have been in situtations where the MT died twice after 3 stacks switch. That extra time prolonged my use of TP even when I am full myth. Also, TP will be an issue especially when you, as a tank, died. I have seen some nut-job go on full blast as an OT after raise and ran dry on TP when it is needed for the switch.

But then again, if all that happened, there is probably no hope in getting the duty done in the first place...

The chances of beating it when one or both tanks have died is pretty slim, but I have done it *once* lol. I think we just had stellar DPS. In a weakened state it's hard to survive the Diffractive Laser even with CDs.

Actually kind of a funny (to me) side note, our FC has 2 main PLD and 1 main WAR (me), all about equally geared.. It's almost always the PLD's that goes down first if we have a struggling group lol. (we usually PF groups with one or 2 DPS/Healers from the FC) WARs FTW!

The Paladin needs to learn to be an OT, and it's likely he was experiencing the shield/sword oath bug.Sure you could focus on gaining more hate, but when is that ever an excuse for someone to take hate from you just for the hell of it? He has moves that generate a lot of hate and he needs to learn how to use them properly.

As my primary (and pretty much only real class) is PLD, it is very easy to gauge when you will be taking full aggro, and to check yourself. When it is a matter of swapping, I try and keep good practice of swapping out Sword Oath (when OT) and Shield Oath (when MT) so I can make the most of my role. And as many above pointed out, when I OT, I use SS often on MT and healers who are close by. Its not much of a team effort when you are taking aggro and then blaming the person. Unless the OT is i90 and the MT is i70 (in which case you may not want to be in a tank swapping battle anyway, but can still be done).

Its just bad form to not pay attention and take aggro when it's not your turn. Awesome player or not.

Yeah sounds like the OTs problematic could be your gear is less then his and if he has relic zenith and you don't that could be tough for you too but any good tank should be holding off if they are taking hate and if they are to then they're bad. Its kind of annoying that we don't have any combos that don't generate hate but it's a plds job to know that the moves they do generate hate even in sword oath.

In ultima I usually just do my normal MT stuff to keep hate hardcore and when 3 stacks come up I instantly stop everything and just stand there until the other tank provokes and then I switch with him, sometimes I still pull hate for a second with just my auto attack but from there I just auto attack and cast stone skin on the tank a bunch until it's my turn up again. But that's kuz of the sword to shield oath glitch. I haven't done it since that's been fixed but I plan to switch to sword oath at 3 stacks then switch with the tank and do some combos sparingly and continue casting SS on the other tank until 2 stacks has been up for alittle while, then switch the shield oath and just auto attack till 3 when I switch again. Point being, when your OTing you goal is to not take hate from the MT. And when your up again the other tank should be doing the same

Go on strike and refuse to tank, that's what I do in CT when low geared tanks attempt to get hate. I let them, stop tanking, they die and either learn their lesson or end up dying again :D

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Until the PLD hits 5 stacks and dies.

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let him die if he cant watch his aggro :p

same with some WARs that do SE-BB-BB rotation when OTing instead of SE-SP (even seen some in CT that use berserk and unchained on pull just to pull aggro from MT) or PLDs spaming RoH + FoF on tank switch, game is full of them. On the other hand atleast they know how to use combos, seen so many tanks spaming RoH or BB without comboing it :)

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Originally Posted by Snorgrind

let him die if he cant watch his aggro :p

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Because tank deaths in Ultima Hard are totally easy to recover from as a raid and don't drain healer resources or anything. Oh, wait, no, tank deaths in that fight are potentially catastrophic depending on their timing. I'd understand if we were talking a DPS: we're expendable for the most part and need to be put in our place on occasion. Raising a DD has a time limit of "whenever I feel like it." Raising a tank in UH has a time limit of "before the good tank hits 5 stacks." Or worse, "before the next set of orbs." I'd rather the tanks not be suicidal/homicidal and out to get each other.

Yeah - the bloodlust can sometimes get to some tanks and they forgot why they are there.

I generally just shrug it off and hit the target with BB combos over and over. I will even sacrifice SE and SP combos if i know the OT is 1 combo away from stealing aggro. I figured the healers can take the slight increase in damage taken - or ill pop a cooldown to compensate. You can generally blow past them quite easily if you pop a cooldown or two.

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Originally Posted by Zedine

In turn 2 I notice it a lot with PUG groups the other tank vokes and starts to get three stacks then when I voke and do my combo they flash spirits withing and circle fo scorn pretty much taking hate back and now I have no voke or other cooldowns, they get to 5 stacks then die. The worst is people getting buffs and having abilities to lower hate and not using them. Like taking the path so Tanks deal less slashing damage but DRG and bard and BLM are solid yet no one uses repelling strikes or evasive jump. Not an issue anymore as I am better geared now but 1st time in coil it was very annoying.

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The aggro generation point isn't too much of an issue any more (the patch boosted enmity gain in Defiance and Shield Oath by a ridiculous amount. I never lose hate on Turn 4 pulls these days let alone T2) but prompt Tankswaps do seem to be an issue for a lot of people in PUGs.

It takes a little bit of co-operation from both tanks, but the general idea is to have Step 3 or Step 2+3 of your enmity combo queued up and ready to use immediately after the Provoke. Using Provoke will put the new tank at one point of enmity over the old tank... this can be overcome if the old tank autoattacks let alone uses a weaponskill, so following up the Provoke with a pre-prepared enmity combo ability spikes the new tank's hate levels up a lot higher. As soon as the old tank sees the Provoke go off, they should STOP using combos and turn away from the boss (a mistimed autoattack can pull hate) until the new tank secures enmity by using a weaponskill or two.

For a PLD there are two schools of thought on the best combo to prepare for the swap:

(i) Use 'Fast Blade' and 'Savage Blade', THEN Provoke, THEN 'Rage of Halone'.
This gives you a large enmity spike over the other Tank in one GCD... However the animation of RoH is quite long, so the enmity spike takes longer to kick in.

(ii) Use 'Fast Blade', THEN Provoke, THEN 'Savage Blade' and 'Rage of Halone'.
This has two advantages: it is very easy to keep prepared prior to a tank swap (just spam FB), and the animation of SB is a lot faster than RoH so the enmity spike kicks in sooner. The downside is that SB pulls less hate in one GCD than RoH does, so in certain circumstances hate might "ping-pong" a little between you and the old tank after you use SB until you get a followup RoH off.

At endgame, some Bosses such as EM Ifrit or Turn 2 ADS have nasty cone abilities - so careful positioning can also play a big part of the tankswap. During such a swap, both Tanks will often strafe around a mob whilst attempting to stay at least 90 degrees apart; and any melee DDs will stay at 180 degrees to the "Main" Tank's designated tanking spot. Since most Cones are 90 degrees, this means that only one tank at a time should be getting hit by the boss, and the melee DDs should stay totally safe. (example of an anticlockwise swap: MT tanks Boss at 12 O'clock, DDs and OT are at 6 O'clock. OT moves to 3 O'clock and Provokes. MT moves to 9 O'clock and OT moves to 12 O'clock. When OT has secured hate, MT moves to 6 o'clock to join DDs.)

When I am about to swap hate to the other tank I will stop all of my dps about 3 seconds before he provokes, let him get hate then switch to sword oath and wait about 10 seconds before doing anything else. This gives the other tank time to build up a good hate lead on me so I can then contribute as much dps as possible. If you are not in voice coms with the other tank use macros with sounds ie. provoking in 3!! <se.1>
And let the other tank know before you start the fight that he needs to stop all dps when he sees that and to not start back up dps till about 10 seconds after you have hate.

Big thing That can mess up tank swaps is having to dodge an aoe as the mt right after you got hate. If the ot does not and is still dpsing he will pull hate, that is why the fail proof way is to just have him sit there for 10 seconds after swap.

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Originally Posted by Cligue

Big thing That can mess up tank swaps is having to dodge an aoe as the mt right after you got hate. If the ot does not and is still dpsing he will pull hate, that is why the fail proof way is to just have him sit there for 10 seconds after swap.

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That seems like overkill to me.

I can't think of many circumstances in the game where dodging a Boss ability would make a Main Tank have to run so far away that they couldn't just keep using Melee weaponskills.
I can think of even less circumstances where a MT would have to dodge such a distance and an OT wouldn't.

Furthermore, most endgame fights are heavily scripted and predictable... so non-emergency tank swaps should nearly always be timed so that they DON'T coincide with any dodgeable AoE attacks.

You're right that stopping all DPS for a period both before and after a Provoke would be almost foolproof (in terms of enmity trading between the two tanks) but ~13 seconds of the "Original" Tank contributing no DPS at all seems a little bit overkill to me. Particularly for fights with DPS checks - WARs and PLDs both have a good deal of Spike DPS they can throw at a Nail, a Gaol or a Conflag. Though I suppose you could just use that period of downtime to spam Stoneskin on everyone... :)

Sorry let me be more clear, you can stoneskin nstuff I was just saying do not dps, this is more for playing with randoms btw when you might be i90 and the other tank i75.

I know tanking fights that I am way overgeared for even after 10 seconds of down time I have come close to pulling hate back and had to stop again. Like everything in game situation dictates your actions. And most dps checks in the game are actually not on the boss but adds/objects where hate does not matter, so the ot can always go hard.

1. If your in OT position alternating between Riot Blade and full Halone combos is normally enough to never pull aggro. 2 Riot combos for everyone 1 full Halone is enough to keep the STR debuff up and never pull hate.
2. If your about to swap out in the next few seconds as the MT stop doing full BB or RoH combos. If you switch into Riot or Storms Combos for 1-2 cycles as your about to swap there will never be a hate issue.