The new system and the old system. Constrained.

Lets break this down:

Current System

• Stamina fills at a set rate
  
• you DO need to push the button in this system for a standard attack.
  
• DPS is erratic because it happens at the will of the player.
  
• You CAN save the stamina(novel concept) and unleash several attacks in tandem for burst attacks if you choose with this system. Most people don't however and just spam standard attack, resulting in the idea that auto attack accomplishes the same thing. (it doesn't)

New System

• This attack happens automatically and you can NOT choose when to use it.
  
• DPS is more constant and can not be bursted or "saved" for burst damage or TP gain. Or in the future the LACK of TP gain on a monster, slowed damage on a monster etc...

(the point is flexibility, now gone.)



Conclusion:

The new system is actually a more constrained version of a stamina system because we can not CHOOSE our standard attack rate/speed. (spike damage essentially, not the delay between attacks)

Why?

If the "I can not communicate with friends via chatting" is your main complaint, you are going to find yourself in the same situation with the auto attack system. You will be actively managing cooldowns and will find you have the same complaint.

In the current system you can use all of your stamina and then chat UNTIL YOUR BAR IS FULL. At which point you can empty it again and repeat. Chatting is very easy in this system, you just need to know how to use it.

Having control over this system is important to me. The more they remove from the systems and flexibility of this game, the less choices we get to make as a player, and the more "casual" it gets. I don't want the game to play itself. Thanks.

Soon enough we will have auto attack, no need for levels, the inability to spec our points HOWEVER we choose (so I cant be a mage tank anymore pfft) and class roles will be so defined I can no longer play how I WANT, I will be playing how I am TOLD to play.

It is unfortunate that this battle reform has taken so many resources from creating content we could all enjoy for a lazy community of players who want the game played FOR them.

Your bulletpoints are messed up.

Your new system point 1 and 2 are the exact same thing.

Also you can get 3000 tp, and if your skill only uses 1000 then you got 2000 left and you can do another 1k skill and have 1k left and do a third 1k skill, woah with the power of math i've discovered you can do the same as before.

If anything Stamina slows you down because in order to do a lot of attacks at once regardless of TP you need stamina up, you're always waiting for it, and you need it from 0 to 100% which can take like 5-6 seconds, where as without it soon as you hit 3000 tp BAM BAM BAM you can get those 3 attacks out instantly.

Even in the video he selects his final Glad skill the moment he did the previous one, hes on like 900+ tp and his auto atk tips him over and he can do the skill right away, doesnt need to wait for stamina.

you will still have skill point allotment last i checked

Quote:

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The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank.

---

the stamina system actually worked well for many things, some classes couldnt do much to manage it (gladiator/tanks) and the others ignored its strengths usually as you said. Its gone now though so, whatevs, least we still got stat point allotment.

If the stamina gauge worked how it does in FFXIII then that would be a million times better than what we have now, also FFXIII had a quick toggle auto attack so they would have solved both problems in one go with that system.

In FFXIII you could combo/que different moves and then unleesh them when you wanted for a string of moves or you could just launch single attacks quickly when needed, it worked perfectly and when I first heard about stamina being used in FFXIV this is how I imagined it would be used, that is not what we got however.

The thing is you have no casting time in FF13, so if you did Death which took up 5, you only had to have a full bar and pop it'd do Death

In FF14 you have a casting bar so for a mage its
- Need enough MP
- Need enough Stamina
- Now wait for Cast timer
- Now wait for recast timer

I understand most but why do we need to wait for a Cast timer and a Stamina and have enough MP, it all seems very restrictive. If I have the MP, let me do the damn spell. And now I can since its removed. If I want to do blizzard and I have enough MP, I can do it and it can start casting right away, not when some bar says I can.

You think it gave you control, but it doesnt.

Also removing it is completely different thing than adding in Auto Attack, they could of removed Stamina and not had auto attack and vice-versa.

wonder if we'll get delay on weapons like ffxi

bow 600:delay
axe 276:delay and so on.

haste equip will be or friend and dread, faster speed and higher cost for equip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indira

wonder if we'll get delay on weapons like ffxi

bow 600:delay
axe 276:delay and so on.

---

Dev said we will, not sure on exacts but its in the same auto attack thread.

Here it is:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post184935

Didnt say Delay exactly but they said Speed differ via weapon of each class, which is .. delay. Just now its weather that's each class has a delay or each individual weapon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Lets break this down:

Current System

• Stamina fills at a set rate
  
• you DO need to push the button in this system for a standard attack.
  
• DPS is erratic because it happens at the will of the player.
  
• You CAN save the stamina(novel concept) and unleash several attacks in tandem for burst attacks if you choose with this system. Most people don't however and just spam standard attack, resulting in the idea that auto attack accomplishes the same thing. (it doesn't)

New System

• Weapons/classes now attack at a set rate. You no longer choose when your attacks happen.
  
• This attack happens automatically and you can NOT choose when to use it.
  
• DPS is more constant and can not be bursted or "saved" for burst damage or TP gain. (or in the future the LACK of TP gain on a monster, slowed damage on a monster etc... the point is flexibility!)

Conclusion:

The new system is actually a more constrained version of a stamina system. Players can no longer make the decision to save up standard attacks to unleash quickly for burst damage (or TP gain among other things)

For what?

If the "I can not communicate with friends via chatting" is your main complaint, you are going to find yourself in the same situation with the auto attack system. You will be actively managing cooldowns and will find you have the same complaint.

In the current system you can use all of your stamina and then chat UNTIL YOUR BAR IS FULL. At which point you can empty it again and repeat. Chatting is very easy in this system, you just need to know how to use it.

Having control over this system is important to me. The more they remove from the systems and flexibility of this game, the less choices we get to make as a player, and the more "casual" it gets. I don't want the game to play itself. Thanks.

Soon enough we will have auto attack, no need for levels, the inability to spec our points HOWEVER we choose (so I cant be a mage tank anymore pfft) and class roles will be so defined I can no longer play how I WANT, I will be playing how I am TOLD to play.

It is unfortunate that this battle reform has taken so many resources from creating content we could all enjoy for a lazy community of players who want the game played FOR them.

---

Hey dood, this is exactly what players demanded.

I been saying for 9 months this is the exact opposite way to go with XIV. That they will turn this game into XI slowly over time and everything "good" about the game (player control over character progression and customized playstyles) will die and we'll all be waiting 6 hours for parties to form (once they nerf Guildleves). The masses got what they wanted and I'm going to be out one unique MMO experience.

My minority opinion (which I see as a more "big picture" opinion) has been classified as "killing the game." In the long run, who knows which is better for the game or attracting a profitable player base - but the more freedom they suck out of this game the less likely I am to play it. That's all there is to that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

Dev said we will, not sure on exacts but its in the same auto attack thread.

Here it is:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post184935

Didnt say Delay exactly but they said Speed differ via weapon of each class, which is .. delay. Just now its weather that's each class has a delay or each individual weapon.

---

Yeah I saw that I hope they mean each weapon will have it's own individual delay and not MRD has this delay, LNC has this delay and so on as that would be so damn lazy. Putting delay on each weapon adds a bit more strategy, do I take the slower but harder hitting weapon or the quicker but less DMG one.

I dont understand this freedom people think they're losing?

Are you sad that all you can do right now is press 1 over and over at your choosing and that the attack in 1 is better than all other attacks due to a broken system? Like I said in another just keep pressing one if you want to feel like you have control over that.

I like to have control over when I can do my skills and magic and not have some stupid additional bar tell me when I can or cant do something. I like being able to focus on my skills where as currently I cant, i've always got to go back to 1 or wait for pigs to fly so that I have enough stamina to do anything.

Instead of a stamina bar you'll now have a mini clock ticking down to tell you when you can or can't do something. Personally, I don't see the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

I dont understand this freedom people think they're losing?

Are you sad that all you can do right now is press 1 over and over at your choosing and that the attack in 1 is better than all other attacks due to a broken system? Like I said in another just keep pressing one if you want to feel like you have control over that.

I like to have control over when I can do my skills and magic and not have some stupid additional bar tell me when I can or cant do something. I like being able to focus on my skills where as currently I cant, i've always got to go back to 1 or wait for pigs to fly so that I have enough stamina to do anything.

---

Yeah, the AA helps the combat become a bit more "immersive" the reasoning behind this is because you can concentrate on putting the skills you want at the moment you want and not have to worry about hiitting Heavy or light strike, or whatever your class uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Instead of a stamina bar you'll now have a mini clock ticking down to tell you when you can or can't do something. Personally, I don't see the difference.

---

It's more then that, since in hindsight (for FF11 and FF14) we know what can and can't be abused to a large extent.

For instance the stamina bar is abused heavily by using animations and casting time. Cure being a prime example.

Cure has a 4 second = animation time with about 1-2 second recast time, but uses stupidly low stamina. Thus, in terms of optimal micro management, if you spam attack(fastest animation) the whole full stamina bar, defend with cure which will allow the free stamina bar charge up time while attaining maximum TP return, you have the best general attack pattern.

This is actually a problem for many of the skills, because we can abuse animation and stamina recovery to our benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It's more then that, since in hindsight (for FF11 and FF14) we know what can and can't be abused to a large extent.

For instance the stamina bar is abused heavily by using animations and casting time. Cure being a prime example.

Cure has a 4 second = animation time with about 1-2 second recast time, but uses stupidly low stamina. Thus, in terms of optimal micro management, if you spam attack the whole full stamina bar, defend with cure which will allow the free stamina bar charge up time while attaining maximum TP return, you have the best general attack pattern.

This is actually a problem for many of the skills, because we can abuse animation and stamina recovery to our benefit.

---

I'm not even sure I understand what you just said. But not that it matters anyway. I couldn't argue with you one way or the other on this since I'm just a normal player. I just play to have fun. I don't look for ways to abuse the system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I'm not even sure I understand what you just said. But not that it matters anyway. I couldn't argue with you one way or the other on this since I'm just a normal player. I just play to have fun. I don't look for ways to abuse the system.

---

You'll still feel it and learn to hate it. There's no getting around mechanical inadequacies in MMO which makes people do repetition as it's main alure.

Look at what happened to DCUO. Macro scripting = winners. Not scripters = losers. Sure the losers still have fun, but they hate being loosers as oppose to the winners.

That's what happens when you design a system too combo heavy. It's almost the same as playing a fighting game with an opponent who has button memory replay controller. No matter how casual you are or how skillful you are, you can't help to hate the unfair advantage that controller is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Instead of a stamina bar you'll now have a mini clock ticking down to tell you when you can or can't do something. Personally, I don't see the difference.

---

The difference is the clock doesn't prevent you from doing every action. It only prevents you from doing the actions on a common cooldown timer ( which could be an individual ability or a related group of abilities ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viion

If anything Stamina slows you down because in order to do a lot of attacks at once regardless of TP you need stamina up, you're always waiting for it, and you need it from 0 to 100% which can take like 5-6 seconds, where as without it soon as you hit 3000 tp BAM BAM BAM you can get those 3 attacks out instantly.

---

You forget about cooldowns. Which will most likely be increased.

I am expecting a 20-30% increase on cooldowns now that stamina isn't going to be around.

Won't be any BAM BAM BAM. Sorry. Only with the old stamina system would I expect shorter cooldowns because players must save the stamina in order to unleash like that.

Without it? Doubt it.

That 5-6 second "wait time" you mentioned will be your new cooldown.


Calling it now: New system; Longer cooldowns. Expect the delay of stamina to be added to cooldowns.

Essentially creating the same system we have now, but worse because we will have less control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You forget about cooldowns. Which will most likely be increased.

---

Looking at the video they've not changed, and no I did not forget them, read my other post. But I'm assuming by that very small pointless post (As we dont know weather they will or not, and by looks of things its not changing, or if it does not by much), you know im right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viion

Looking at the video they've not changed, and no I did not forget them, read my other post. But I'm assuming by that very small pointless post (As we dont know weather they will or not, and by looks of things its not changing, or if it does not by much), you know im right.

---

You are forgetting this is SE Viion, of course they will change the cooldown timers, they will make them[SIZE="5"] BIGGER!!![/SIZE]

Quote:

---

Looking at the video they've not changed, and no I did not forget them, read my other post. But I'm assuming by that very small pointless post (As we dont know weather they will or not, and by looks of things its not changing, or if it does not by much), you know im right.

---

I was editing to elaborate. I knew you would have something to say.

Please read my last post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I was editing to elaborate. I knew you would have something to say.

Please read my last post.

---

Didnt you hear about the BIG COOLDOWNS

Why do you have this silly idea that every skill shares the same cool down?

Why cant I go do
- Circle Slash
- Red Lotus
- Luminous Spire

3 completely different skills, all use 1000 TP so I can go [SIZE="5"]BAM [/SIZE][SIZE="6"]BAM [/SIZE][SIZE="7"]BAM[/SIZE]

Just like it shows in the video

Totally support editorials on the forums. I have made a thread about this called Be Brave. Check it out. Why they are constraining battle and Armoury and ignoring real problems baffles me. But at best this is just a complaint at this point. You can't unscramble an egg.

Maybe, Just maybe I want to use 1 weaponskill?

Maybe I want the EFFECT of the weaponskill?

Incap.
TP reduction on a monster.
Bind.
Defence down.
Battle regimens.
Good VS XXX
Damage VS XXX
etc...

need I go on?

I shouldn't HAVE to use 3 different weaponskills.

Maybe I WANT to use 1 for its special properties?

Which will now have a longer cooldown.

Because of stamina bar removal/auto attack.

Constraints on the system. Terrible.

But you cant do that now........... You have cooldowns now, so you cant do same skill

and you're bitchen about higher cool-downs which you have no clue about and judging by the video has not changed....

If you're gunna try argue with me over silly speculation trying to base it as facts then you're on your own.

I will honestly say I can not know weather they will increase or not.

I can however say that if there is no change to cooldowns to balance the complete removal of stamina (a limiting factor in our current system) all players damage will raise significantly.

With increased damage, I doubt changing monsters HP and DEF is the easiest route to keeping the current balance. Thus the simplest fix for retaining current balance is keeping as close to the current delays as possible.(including the stamina factor) in other words; increasing cooldowns to match what they currently are + a factor for stamina cost.

My expectations:

Current cooldown + X = new cooldown

(where X is 1 second per 1 seconds worth of stamina the skill cost)

Example:

Skill A is a 6 second cooldown and takes half a stamina bar to use.

Skill A is now: 6+4(the time it takes to fill half a stamina bar) = 10 second cooldown.

Just my expectations/predictions.

Well there you go, we're arguing over something we have no facts on, other than that video, which has no cooldown adjustment.

Also even if it did rise a little, say your favourite skill was every 8 seconds and is now 10 seconds, is that extra 2 second wait which you could fly to the moon in really that big of a deal that its constrained your freedom? Seriously?

I'm not arguing with you, I am explaining myself.

However you feel like our conversation is going is your own business.

And yes. 2-10 seconds on skills, plus the fact that now I can not CHOOSE when to use my standard attacks (due to removal of stamina) plus future system changes that give the appearance of removing player flexibility (like physical levels for stat points) which now will be used on a job-per-job basis remove my advantage of being a higher physical level on a low level job, is definitely pushing some buttons.

I praised the current system for its flexibility, which seems to be going out the door because people want to afk level with auto attack and have stat points put in automatically because they don't want to take a moment to learn how stats work (or how to best build their character)

Actually in the last letter he said that cooldowns would only be adjusted for skills that were soley dependant on stamina I believe. So maybe they aren't changing, but also don't forget they are also changing stats and otherthings so damage may not increase as expected.

True.

In the end I think my complaint boils down to choice.

My choice of when I want to place my attack. My choice at the nature of my attacks.

Empty my stamina bar and burst some damage,
or play it easy and keep some for an emergency provoke.
maybe keep it high for buffs and a weaponskill
or keep it low and pump all the damage I can into every ounce of stamina.

I will no longer be able to do that.

/sad panda

I'll just wait here with a popcorn sack prepared to get microwaved to see rather if people will like it or will dislike it =)
For myself, I don't care as long as fighting will still be challenging. Remember that Matsui said that he wants to make a battle system in which you will not be able to end a fight only with normal attacks, and I'm curious on how he has done his job.

What is it exactly you won't be able to do with the new system? You won't be able to spam basic attack but other than that nothing will really change, if you don't want to attack for a few seconds would just turning around work for that?

Quote:

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The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank.

---

More flexibility removal.

Everyone at rank 30 has 100 points to spend

Everyone at rank 50 has 250 points to spend

(not sure how many exactly, but the point remains)

Now, instead of having 250 points to spend on my rank 30 (because I have a high physical level)

I now get 100 points to spend because I'm rank 30.

EVERYONE will have the same number of points to spend from now on SOLELY based on your rank.

Good for new players. Terrible for anyone who worked for physical 50.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

What is it exactly you won't be able to do with the new system? You won't be able to spam basic attack but other than that nothing will really change, if you don't want to attack for a few seconds would just turning around work for that?

---

If I turned around in the current system and stopped attacking, I could save enough stamina to attack 3-4 times back to back with all that stamina.

In the new system, if I turn around for the same amount of time, I just start auto attacking again. Losing all of the attacks I "saved" by letting my stamina raise while not attacking.

But the stats barely worked for physical level anyway so it is hardly something that is going to be missed. You will now be able to assign your points automatically for each and every class which is a far better trade off.

Worst case scenario is that every class you level will be equally as challenging at lower ranks and you won't get a free ride because you have levelled up something else to boost your physical level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

If I turned around in the current system and stopped attacking, I could save enough stamina to attack 3-4 times back to back with all that stamina.

In the new system, if I turn around for the same amount of time, I just start auto attacking again. Losing all of the attacks I "saved" by letting my stamina raise while not attacking.

---

And like I said it is only basic attack that is being effected in that manner.

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

Losing any potential attacks is only part of it, The TP from those 4 attacks is now gone as well.

Which is a potential weaponskill.



Stopping for a moment in the current system is no loss in DPS over time because stamina "holds" your attacks for use when you want them.

The new system is an "on off" switch. If you don't USE them, they are gone. (standard attacks)

Making the new system even worse for communication.

A typing player that isn't faces directly at a monster that misses a swing is an unknown lost amount of potential damage from the attack and the TP gain.

Current system = higher damage because of stamina.

The stats barely worked, and they also capped lol.

so why you complaining about losing flexability on a system that did notwork and wasnt as flexible as youthought? "woo i can pound 200 str in at rank 20", no you can do about 50 and it caps.

We still get points, for all we know could be per class so i dont have to keep switching. more flexability.

And if your so up tight about losing the ability to press 1 over and over and over and over and over and over, then thats just sad lol I heard you can do that in wow, might be ur game.

and no you couldnt do skills back to back because you'd still have a cooldown

Not only that due to the stamina restriction what if you have 3 skills, all different, all 1000 tp, in the new system you can do all 3 in a row, but in the current system you cant because for some reason all 3 of them use 50% stamina so I can only do 2 then i have to wait more!!!

Stamina is a restrictive layer added on top and is nothing more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I praised the current system for its flexibility, which seems to be going out the door because people want to afk level with auto attack and have stat points put in automatically because they don't want to take a moment to learn how stats work (or how to best build their character)

---

The same flexibly that have completely unbalanced the game, and made what little population is left, lower?

Please this isn't some single player game where no one cares if you beat the game with your mind, with your older brother, with your gamefaq, or cheat outright.

Flexiblity is novice way of saying, I want to be better then everyone, but at the same time, different. You can't do that in a community.

I want the flexibility to go naked outside whenever I want....no...just no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Basic attack accounts for a very large portion of damage.

---

But they entire battle system is being overhauled so what applies now won't matter. They said in the battle reform blueprint that they wanted to make sure battles were challenging and you could not win with just auto attack.

Edit to add:

Can you even give me one instance in the game where you actually need to stop attacking the mob for a brief period of time and then during that time you can build you can build your stamina back up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Flexiblity is novice way of saying, I want to be better then everyone, but at the same time, different. You can't do that in a community.

---

Nono, flexibility is being able to offheal on my lancer.

flexibility is being able to nuke some on my Marauder

flexibility is being able to tank some on my pug.

This is what I mean by it.

Stat points need fixing yes. NOT the system that carries them.


Reduce the total number of stat points, give them MORE weight so that I don't need 100 points for 10 more damage. Make it 10 more points for 10 more damage.

Fix the ISSUE with the system, not the whole system itself.

I know it's too late, but when the game hangs on the line like this, REHAULING the battle system is only delaying what people really need:

CONTENT