This thread is in response to this one from the General forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...uda-MELEE-Woes
I am making it to talk correct tanking methods for melee DD in the party. Please come discuss working methods you have seen/used so that other tanks might realize, melee in the group isn't a bad thing. I hope to spread some awareness that the players simply aren't doing Garuda EX how the devs designed it (no melee groups) to take the brainless way out.
To start it off, melee *can* dodge wicked wheel if they prep and run out, as well as the tank giving them enough room, and the Spiny Plume not needing to be switched at a bad time, etc. I don't believe this is how the fight was designed either though, and a little thought will make one realize that the OT sitting across the pond doing nothing while MT takes both Garuda/Surparna probably isn't efficient either.
One method I have used very successfully is just a small variation of the standard one. Pull Chirada like normal to the SE position, ranged/heals SW, Tank NW, melee SE on Chirada. Everyone can then burn Chirada like normal. To setup this phase I will usually SS > BB Chirada (you can savage > halone pld) and then provoke the spiny *AT THE START* of this Tornado phase. They leave you more then enough time to accomplish all this and get into position before Chirada even Slipstreams.
The point of this is, using your provoke early. You pick up the spiny plume and always have the MT take the plume off you at 2 stacks. Reason for this? Your voke will be up by the time the Spiny switch is needed. MT will pull Spiny across the Tornados like normal. Here is where people usually go wrong.. OT just sits while melee go get Wicked Wheel to the face x2. Instead, if Chirada is down (which she should be about this time), voke Surparna across. If done correctly both spiny and Surparna should simply cross paths across middle. At this point I haven't even seen Surparna do Wicked Wheel (not sure if this is a mechanic of the fight), but instead does Downburst on me like Chirada. Surparna will not jump (until enrage) and will be downed easily like Chirada was, with no melee casualties. This method is obviously just as effective with multiple melees as just one. You lose out on a few seconds of melee DD on Surparna crossing the Tornados, and that is all (ranged won't be affected).
Another method is similar as I described before, but leads to a little prolonged tank damage, good if you got geared tanks and x1 or x2 melee. You don't need to fuss much beyond normal with Spiny plume either. Simply put ranged on Surparna, and melee on Chirada in normal tanking positions. If Surparna jumps, ranged switch to Chirada till after feathers, and go back on Surparna. This works especially well with x1 melee, as their add will be second to go down, with 3 DD on Surparna and they are full time DDing Chirada without any extra damage intake.
I know there is a JP triangle method as well. I have not done this one, so I'm unsure of its implementation. Supposedly a rather safe method though. I imagine this goes with MT in NW corner, all DD/Heals SW, and OT pull Surparna NE. This will separate them out, with Chirada obviously getting burned quick off healers aggroe. Garuda/Surparna will switch places but won't matter, melee just go to Surparna's location and burn without getting hit by Wicked Wheel x2.
Anyone else have success stories, methods, or general advice to tank this properly for melee? I really see no reason for there to be melee discrimination in this fight. I hope my tank brethren are actively discouraging this attitude, and we can dispel *ranged onry* parties. Please spread the word to your fellow tanks, and keep this thread helpful and friendly.
PSA: Garuda EX Tanking
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01-11-2014, 03:33 AMTraekPSA: Garuda EX Tanking
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01-11-2014, 03:44 AMbokchoykn
Yeah, we do it pretty much the same way as you suggested. From my experience, melee parses the highest damage in this fight, even when we use caster LB on the Sisters.
- For the initial Sister phase, we pull Chirada South and Garuda + Suparna North. All DPS on Chirada until she dies.
- OT and melee moves north and wait for the Wicked Wheel before we go in. Once Suparna starts to cast Slipstream, OT vokes it and takes it one way while MT takes Garuda the other way so they're spread apart a little.
- For the green circles phase, MT takes Garuda + Suparna Northwest. OT grabs Chirada and Provokes the Spiny Phase and tanks them in the Southeast.
- By the time the OT has two Cyclone stacks, Chirada is dead. MT provokes Spiny from the OT. OT provokes Suparna from the MT and tanks her Southwest so the melee can safely beat on her.
- By the time Suparna is down, Garuda has already used Wicked Wheel so the melee jump or Shoulder Tackle to the other side and put some DPS on Garuda.
- For the initial Sister phase, we pull Chirada South and Garuda + Suparna North. All DPS on Chirada until she dies.
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01-11-2014, 04:20 AMTraekThanks for adding in Bokchoy, I am glad other tanks are doing similar methods. That is what I do on the first add phase as well, thanks for adding it in so there wasn't confusion. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bokchoykn
Has anyone seen a wicked wheel from Surparna when she is apart from Garuda? Obviously if the melee jump over to MT with both Garuda/Surparna, this is the problem (x2 wicked wheel), but it seems to be part of design that Surparna doesn't do it if pulled from proximity of Garuda.
What is funny is that even if groups went full ranged, the Spiny Plume/Surparna switch of MT and OT would still be better. It ensures the Spiny's placement, takes x2 Wicked Wheel risk off MT, and doesn't interrupt DD except for tank's (el oh el).
I'm sure there are plenty of smart tanks doing these methods described, but I've seen the melee discrimination in groups and PF, so its a thing. I hope people will put forth some effort into discouraging that attitude. -
01-11-2014, 04:47 AMRoffel
I'm from the same server as both of y'all and heard of y'all's clears. I have tried and tried again and it keeps getting to me. As OT we get wiped bc the MT isn't voking when needed or a dd is killing plumes early. As MT I get wiped by 2x wicked wheel. Do y'all pop all of your CDs at this point? Or is just rampart or sentinel sufficient? Should the whm be hitting me with Ss before this happens? Any help would be amazing. Thanks
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01-11-2014, 04:57 AMTaranNos
I figured this would be the strategy when I first started doing Garuda EX, but most pugs seemed to have trouble with the concept. The popular tactic here is to have melee stay on chirada while ranged kills suparna first, then helps with chirada. This minimizes time melee sits around doing nothing while not having too much riding on tanks dealing with spiny early on.
[edit]this method works best with 1 melee 3 ranged ratio, which still heavily favors ranged. Better than nothing I guess. -
01-11-2014, 05:01 AMwhiskeybravo
Thanks for starting this thread Traek.
As mentioned in the other thread, I haven't seen Suprana use WW after separating from Garuda, either, but not sure if it was due to distance or just Chirada being dead. More confirmations would be nice.
Does using this method still have the MT taking 2 WWs before Chirada is dead? Or should DPS have Chirada down before the double WW? -
01-11-2014, 05:42 AMJayRising
Does anyone have anyone have experience pulling Supra first? For heavy melee parties I would like to have a plan ready for them.
As MT tanking Supra and Garuda I haven't had any problems eating a double WW with only Vengeance and Foresight up. -
01-11-2014, 05:59 AMwhiskeybravoThat's my million dollar question. I'm still trying to down this one, most of my attempts have been as War OT or Drg through PF mostly and a few DF, and the MT always falls. Once I started looking at strats it seems that most of those falls were due to MT eating 2 WW (I assume). Maybe it was healers slacking, or just the MT didn't know wth he was doing. But that's why I've been trying to see if OT should really pull Suprana first, so the MT doesn't get hit with 2 WW. But then you have melees needing to dodge WW, and it introduces more complications in a party of seemingly unprepared people lolQuote:
Originally Posted by JayRising
Just a thought on my own comment "I haven't seen Suprana use WW after separating from Garuda, either, but not sure if it was due to distance or just Chirada being dead." If it had to due with distance only then Suprana shouldn't use WW if pulled first and separated from Garuda, so it's either Chirada being dead or a combination of both distance and a dead Chirada.
IF Suprana stops doing WW after Chirada dies then maybe it is better to pull Chirada first (no WW), then pull Suprana off MT (no WW).. And just hope the MT can survive a double WW until that happens -
01-11-2014, 06:06 AMCodekI have no first hand experience to this but I've read somewhere that having Chirada next to Garuda during this fight causes the small healing buff that can be seen in the HM version when Chirada isn't killed. It's really the only thing that might need to be considered with changing the kill order.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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01-11-2014, 06:12 AMTraekQuote:
Originally Posted by JayRising
I know I've pulled Suprana first, the problem with that method is the Garuda jump. They switch places, so unless your DD is real good and kills the add before the first jump, the OT gets Garuda and the MT gets both adds (which'll take 0 damage till separated). I think this was the issue when my FC tried it this way, as we didn't have the fight down pat at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
I am pretty sure Garuda still does x2 Wicked Wheel with Chirada though. My memory might fail me here.. but I thought that was the case.
Don't stack your major buffs. This thread has good information on buff timing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffel
Garuda Extreme as WAR MT.
It is for Warrior, but you get the idea. She is a little tricky with timing and it is something you'll have to practice. It does help with a healer throwing out stoneskin before, I wouldn't expect it however. -
01-11-2014, 06:12 AMwhiskeybravoI haven't heard about that, only that they stack a damage reduction buff if too close together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codek
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01-11-2014, 06:14 AMJudge_XeroAs MT you can survive WW using Sentinel or Rampart + Bulwark. Each phase of Twisters you should have one or the other available. I save HG and Covelescence as oh sh** CDs. If your DPS is good then you should be able to pop a CD trade the Spiney and then eat the WW as your OT vokes Suprana because Chidra is dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roffel
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01-11-2014, 08:04 AMSirTaint
I posted this in the WAR thread. During twisters:
MT takes Garuda and Suprana.
OT takes Chirada and Spiny.
DPS kill Suprana first. Then go straight to Garuda. OT DPS Chirada.
Profit. -
01-11-2014, 01:26 PMremidi
Easiest method I have seen.
OT takes feather during tornado phase.
MT Keeps Garuda and Suprana the whole time during cyclone phase and pops CD's. Melee just gotta dodge WW(Its easy to figure out when). OT only worries about feather.
It's the easiest method. There is no reason to move Suprana away from Garuda, just have the tank pop CD's.
As an offtank once I take the feather off of whoever, Chirada is dead by the time it puts two stacks on anyone and I bring the feather over to the boss and DPS Suprana. Sometimes the MT has to take it away.
**Just what Sirtaint said. You guys are overcomplicating the fight. -
01-15-2014, 06:55 PMMarleytivaIt's not complicated at all and it ensures that your melee DD are safe to do damage (If my ass can do it easily, anyone can). It allows your melees to hit Suparna for longer and ensures that they won't be hit by the feathers. It beats seeing nothing but "ranged dps onry" constantlyQuote:
Originally Posted by remidi
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01-16-2014, 01:15 AMTraek
I'd also like to report in that, if your DD are strong (blowing through things) it is really a lot better to have the DD split on Suparna and Chirada, or do the triangle method, with OT pull Suparna NE, MT & Garuda NW, DD/heals take Chirada SE and stack when downburst comes. The reason is simply, if the OT vokes Spiny plume at the start (because its going to MT), you simply won't have provoke ready for Suparna to cross for the melee, and they'll sit on their hands for 5-8 seconds. Lol
This isn't *terrible* if you have 3 ranged 1 melee, and if they are that strong then Suparna will likely die in plenty of time, but having someone just sitting around certainly isn't effective. Just some more FYI for people. -
02-15-2014, 05:33 PMKhronikos
What the hell is with people unwilling to try the ranged method? Gezuz god man. I have had literally two high level tanks pretty much refuse to try it.
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02-15-2014, 11:56 PMPetiteMalFleur
I've done this a few ways with melee.
1. OT pulls chirada, everyone kills her and melee just sit while ranged kill suprana. Really inefficient and there is barely time to kill suprana before aoe, assuming they have the dps.
2. OT pulls chirada and ranged kill suprana first while melee stay on chirada. Works pretty well. Benefit is that the MT can dps Garuda once suprana dies. Both OT and melee are maximizing their dps.
3. OT pulls suprana and she is killed first. Requires use of the single bar limit break on suprana. Everyone then hops across tornadoes to dps chirada. We had the OT voke the spiny right away so he also helped dps. Downside is melee still got wrecked by suprana's WW. I know it can be dodged but our single melee was new to this method. I kept him up with Stoneskin and asked the scholar to adlo him as well. Healing needs to be more focused on the both tanks with less damage too mitigate. Was very fast and we only saw one sister phase our second clear doing this.
4. Triangle method. Already explained in this thread. I'd add it also requires the use of the single bar lb. Slower than killing suprana first.
Killing suprana first also means the aoe can be survived if chirada is left alive if she is ignored or dps is low. Everyone takes 3.8k damage so healers need to Stoneskin members with low HP, and make use of a good scholar. Everyone also needs to avoid the dots. -
02-20-2014, 04:37 AMFaeye
As MT, I would pull Suparna and Garuda to North tip of NW section at the beginning of that phase. Once, they re-appeared from doing feather rain. I eat double WW then do spiny swap. Once swap is done, pull Garuda and Suparna to South tip of NW corner of the map. Meelee can come in and LB/DPS Suparna then step away to North tip to avoid WW. As long as tank stand at the edge of a safe zone with Garuda and Suparna, meelee can stand at the opposite edge to avoid WW. Of course, Meelee has to know when to move away to avoid WW and Focus Target Garuda.
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02-20-2014, 04:53 AMDhexThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
If you're eating a double Wicked Wheel - your DPS is slow, but with CDs you should live anyway.
Chirada - burn her first; Why? -> Chirada enables Suparna's Wicked Wheel, Chirada does not do a Wicked Wheel and thus a melee DPS can stay on her without having to learn Wicked Wheel's timing - Both healers can focus the main tank as any OT that cannot survive tanking Chirada as she's being burned isn't using their CDs.
PS: Chirada provides Garuda immunity; no Flame Arrow, no tapping her with DoTs, nothing will damage her until Chirada gone. -
02-20-2014, 04:58 AMTraekSuparna is the stoneskin to Garuda, not Chirada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
With a 1 heal party, 4 ranged/1 melee you can have ranged burn Suparna, and keep Melee on Chirada the whole time. Suparna should be dead before jump, and Chirada will get burnt fast after, making this a very safe strat for melee.
Suparna/Garuda do their x2 Wicked Wheel fairly early in, I wouldn't call a group bad if they get it. Over 95% of pugs will. -
02-20-2014, 06:05 AMDhexI didn't know it's a Stoneskin effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek
I assumed since the tether between Chirada and Garuda is green she was the defense/immunity buff, and the tether between Suparna and Chirada is red as it's controlling the extra Wicked Wheel.
Either way; even most of the PF and even DF groups I've cleared Garuda EX with have had Chirada down before Suparna and Garuda finish the feather rain and come back to hit a Wicked Wheel set - and even then using a pendulum motion (swing left to right or right to left) you can dodge one of them as they stop and trigger the animation - if needed.
Tanks take a lot of heat in this fight - but in all honesty it relies on DPS putting down DoTs on Garuda whenever available and not holding back in any of the phases.
Personally I've cleared this as a BLM/BRD/MNK/WAR/PLD and as far methodology I find the strategy I quoted earlier is least susceptible to confusion in a PF/DF group. I know some people like the triple-split but you know what they say about having too many moving parts... :) -
02-20-2014, 06:19 AMLemon8or
A few mechanics I've found helpful for this fight:
_ Garuda and Suparna switch place or as you call it jump when Chirada's HP reaches 50%. This is why on fast DPS group, WW happens after jump and on slow DPS group, WW happens before jump.
_ Once Chirada is dead, Suparna can't do WW anymore, just Downburst and Slipstream. This is the mechanic the OP's strategy is based on so melees are always safe from WW.
_ Once Suparna is dead, Garuda loses the stoneskin and also does not do WW anymore. This is the mechanic suparna-only strategy is based on.
_ First time the sister spawns, WW follows Suparna's Slipstream while in the tornado phase, it follows Garuda's second Slipstream. You have about 5 seconds for the tornado phase, first phase is almost instant. -
02-20-2014, 06:29 AMTraekAlmost all groups down Chirada first, and I believe it is because they watched a video that told them too. I do not think in a *majority* of scenarios, that downing Chirada first is the right one. Even all ranged parties do this, and it sort of blows my mind. All ranged parties have the strict *advantage* of not getting hit by Wicked Wheel. Killing Suparna first removes this, which removes really any threat to the MT's life. Killing Suparna first for ranged should be a given. There is of course the other strategy of killing Suparna and ignoring Chirada completely (OT just holds), as Lemon mentions above. This is a good one for Melee if you can down Suparna before WW, which is also good if Melee LB Suparna for the extra *oomf* and the group just burns Garuda after Suparna.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
Overall I was just hoping to help out some Melee's and the stigma against them in pugs. I still see it around and going strong on my server. The attitude is its always the melee's fault, when in reality we are setting them up to fail. I am not denying in any way that Melee can get out of WW, but really, when you look at the fight and its design, it does not lend itself to the current "accepted" strategy. -
02-20-2014, 07:29 AMDhexThere are really three "accepted" strategies - they vary depending on your group composition and who you've got in your group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek
My experience with this fight leads me to prefer Chirada burn. It's the easiest for me to tank, and was easier for me as a melee DPS. It requires less planning and less "moving parts" as I said earlier. It lets the Healers focus their effort on a single target rather than splitting attention (for any reason) and all of that makes it the safest method I've used.
Safer is better for most groups.
I've seen tanks eat a double Downburst and Wicked Wheel on Chirada + Garuda and fold in the first sister phase - just the same as I've seen tanks fold to a double Wicked Wheel. So whichever method people use - I still would err on the side of caution and do Garuda + Suparna as a main tank unless DPS or Healers request otherwise. -
02-20-2014, 07:55 AMTraekI realize there are more strategies, the only "accepted" one that is constantly used (this is my server, and I have literally never seen a pug do it different) is MT Garuda/Suparna, OT Chirada, burn Chirada > Suparna > Garuda. It is really to the point I have to spam in chat with <se.1> for people to stop attacking Chirada, when I've said from the beginning to attack Suparna first as the strat. Its so engrained in them they forget.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
Just an FYI, I wasn't talking about MT taking Chirada. In a Suparna burn MT still takes Suparna, OT takes Chirada. Ranged burns Suparna, and either leave Chirada alone on OT, or they do Suparna > Chirada > Garuda. If only one melee in group, they can stick on Chirada and never be in danger, or do the Suparna burn with LB to not have a chance of WW killing them (if DPS is good).
This method I'm describing actually is "safer" for both melee, and tanks which relieves pressure on healers like you seem to think standard Chirada burn does. No difference in tanking. -
02-20-2014, 08:44 AMDhexThat's different I'll have to try it - when people have asked for Suparna burn they always insist the OT take it then take Chirada 2nd. I like the method you're describing better than what people are doing when they focus Suparna first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek