SCH and the Demon Wall

Hey guys.

So... I finally unlocked AK yesterday and met that Demon Wall. Now, I know a lot of folks say he's a joke now and can be burned down easily by overgeared DPS before the adds even show up. However, I haven't had the luxury of running it with those awesomely geared DPS in DF/DR and haven't passed this boss yet.

I know I can't keep people out of aoe or prevent them from being knocked off the platform. Heck, I can't even control whether or not someone will LB an add. So two questions about matters I CAN control:

1. How should I handle my fairy: Place her or let her follow me around? If I place her towards the front, she'll probably eat adds' aoes and get paralyzed. If I place towards the back, she'll sit in the purple aoe. Either way, she gets slowed.

2. How do I handle the adds? Once they come out, they're on me like flies on crap and usually kill me in 2 hits if the tank can't grab them fast enough. If I don't spam Succor and Lustrate, the party dies. If I do, the adds stay on me, kill me, then the party dies.

Have tank pop sword oath, you should pop cleric stance and DPS as hard as you can. If you have a melee DPS, have them open with LB, if not, have the mage open with LB.

With fresh lvl 50 DPS( ilvl 55 weapon and a couple pieces of DL), you in cleric stance, and tank in sword oath, you should be able to clear the boss before the bees spawn if not very quickly after.

If you don't... then swap off cleric stance and prepare for heals right before the second knock back. Maybe drop cleric stance before the second knock back and cast a succor.

As for the fairy, let it do all the healing before the bee adds spawn.

Eventually, you will get it down so you don't even need to LB and you can save the LB for pulling large amounts and burning them down later.

With overgeared DPS, the wall should be burned down at about the first knock back if not very soon after it.

As a scholar here are some things I typically did when I first started out on DW.

1. Fairy on free. If you place it, it will get repelled like the rest of the party. Repel may push it out of the "cast zone" of the fairy and it'll stop healing. This is assuming you aren't manually controlling the casts (obey) of the fairy.

2. Us Sacred Soil in upon 2nd repel. This will decrease the damage of any party member in it by 10%. Helps until the tank established threat.

3. Use Rouse, the more healing you can allow your fairy to do until threat is established the better off you are.

4. Pre-cast Adlo, Succor, and/or Stoneskin (if you have it). Do this during the non-running phase just before 2nd repel. It will provide some extra shielding so you can go a few seconds without healing until the tank establishes threat.

In a nutshell, you want to perform as any actions as you can prior to, or immediately after (that don't draw threat), the 2nd repel that will mitigate damage.

Gosh, have to think back to when we were all in AF gear hehe.

The only things I could recommend would be holding your healing until the Tank has aggro on both add's (depending on how much damage the group is taking). Precast Succor and drop Sacred Soil and Eye for an Eye the Tank before second knock back. One of the dps should use LB on the add's so you might have to quickly heal them up if they're taking aggro.

As far as pet placement goes straight in front of the boss works well as it'll only get the Heavy effect instead of the Slow which is the lesser of the two evils since you're not going to have to move it that frequently. You might have to re-place it after the knock backs (unsure) and if your pet does swallow the add's aoe you can always Leeches the effect off assuming you have time :)

Best of luck in your future runs!

Fairy on follow, don't forget to over exaggerate your dodges, that slow takes a huge chunk out of healing potential.

As for bees, precasting succor on that second repel mitigates a lot of hate. Also don't cast anything till those bees are hit at least once by someone else, initial hate is instant, after that even if you spike you have a few seconds before you go from 1 to A.

Ok depends on your healing.
If you can handle the dmg without eos, use selene to boost dps.

Imo you can succor like a nutter, and virus when poss, even dot without cleric. The point is aldo is king, repel magic aldo negates magic ^^

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Originally Posted by Swear_Bear

2. How do I handle the adds? Once they come out, they're on me like flies on crap and usually kill me in 2 hits if the tank can't grab them fast enough.

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This is the problem, the tank MUST grab them fast enough. I'm a tank and i rarely have problem with grabbing them.

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Originally Posted by Swear_Bear

1. How should I handle my fairy: Place her or let her follow me around? If I place her towards the front, she'll probably eat adds' aoes and get paralyzed. If I place towards the back, she'll sit in the purple aoe. Either way, she gets slowed.

2. How do I handle the adds? Once they come out, they're on me like flies on crap and usually kill me in 2 hits if the tank can't grab them fast enough. If I don't spam Succor and Lustrate, the party dies. If I do, the adds stay on me, kill me, then the party dies.

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1. I usually place my fairy in the direct middle of the floor so she's not eating the poison floor in the back when the adds spawn.. Also, I precast succor before the fight, afterwards I'm on cleric stance dpsing the wall letting my fairy do most of the healing with some rouse power. Provided the DPS are dodging well and you don't have to help heal you shouldn't need to get off cleric stance until after the second set of linear aoes to precast a succor for the repel, my succor actually prevents my fairy from getting knocked back, always keeping her in range. Once the adds spawn you can help the fairy heal but the pre-casted succor should help the tank pick up the adds quickly, both tanks have access to flash, or overpower/circle of scorn respectively to pull hate from your fairy/you.

2. Avoiding hate is really all about knowing when to/not to cast/precast. But the Fairy healing should be enough throughout the fight pre-bees, if you've been able to nuke between repels you may be able to just cure through the bees while finishing off the wall.

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Originally Posted by Swear_Bear

...I know I can't keep people out of aoe or prevent them from being knocked off the platform.

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As a matter of fact you can. Virus the wall set up a bubble and aquo everybody. If s.o. does not get damage he does not get the pushback. But even it is doable it is not reliable or even usefull. Rather heal or deal damage in that time. In more cases it irritates the players if you do it and they wont move at all afraid of beeing bug-kicked.

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Originally Posted by Swear_Bear

1. How should I handle my fairy: Place her or let her follow me around? If I place her towards the front, she'll probably eat adds' aoes and get paralyzed. If I place towards the back, she'll sit in the purple aoe. Either way, she gets slowed.

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Place her in the center right benath the Boss. The middle lane only grants heavy no paralyse. Replace her there after each knockback. Neither heavy nor the damage is an issue for the fairy.

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Originally Posted by Swear_Bear

2. How do I handle the adds? Once they come out, they're on me like flies on crap and usually kill me in 2 hits if the tank can't grab them fast enough. If I don't spam Succor and Lustrate, the party dies. If I do, the adds stay on me, kill me, then the party dies.

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Precast aquo on everyone before the second pushback. That will buy the tank enough time to grab em. If thats not enough save three aetherstacks to there. Shouldn´t be to hard. Drop a bubble, E4E on the tank wait a sec and lustrate 5 times to get ppl back up. Makroing Eos is a bonus here. Draw all CD´s from here before the knockback hits. Then hit the hot. If anyone draws aggro off the tank it will be Eos then.

Was going to post my own comment but Sinaloa explained everything already :)

For some reason the fairy sometimes doesn't get kbed - so just remember the place her back into the middle if she does after repel.
Also the adds are only a problem if the rest of the group doesn't know how to handle them (ie tank doesn't pick them up fast enough, dps standing in aoe etc).

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Originally Posted by Cerick

With fresh lvl 50 DPS( ilvl 55 weapon and a couple pieces of DL), you in cleric stance, and tank in sword oath, you should be able to clear the boss before the bees spawn if not very quickly after.

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This... is only mildly true. If you have a group that knows how to dodge, then this is accurate. Since most people in the i50 range though are still learning the fight, scholar should probably stay out of cleric and use eos to heal, while dpsing the boss down.

You can usually use dots immediately after first repel and if you position yourself on the left or right at the very beginning (assuming you have a macro'd set from Bio II-Miasma or you are quick).
The big deal is just to avoid the puddles twice then face forward before repel, ensuring you stay on the plat. And using rouse with fairy is good, but fairy aggro becomes your aggro too, so you may want to just try to sprint to avoid bees and hope you have a tank that will flash quickly.

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Originally Posted by Cerick

Have tank pop sword oath, you should pop cleric stance and DPS as hard as you can. If you have a melee DPS, have them open with LB, if not, have the mage open with LB.

With fresh lvl 50 DPS( ilvl 55 weapon and a couple pieces of DL), you in cleric stance, and tank in sword oath, you should be able to clear the boss before the bees spawn if not very quickly after.

If you don't... then swap off cleric stance and prepare for heals right before the second knock back. Maybe drop cleric stance before the second knock back and cast a succor.

As for the fairy, let it do all the healing before the bee adds spawn.

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This is good advice. Do not underestimate the power of a tank in damage mode and Cleric Stance, and trust in your fairy and Lustrates to handle the healing on the party and tank, respectively. It's incredibly tricky to be able to cast your best abilities (Bio II and Miasma) in timing with dodging the puddles, but with practice it becomes routine.

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Originally Posted by MagusVandel

This... is only mildly true. If you have a group that knows how to dodge, then this is accurate. Since most people in the i50 range though are still learning the fight, scholar should probably stay out of cleric and use eos to heal, while dpsing the boss down.

You can usually use dots immediately after first repel and if you position yourself on the left or right at the very beginning (assuming you have a macro'd set from Bio II-Miasma or you are quick)..

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This is still bad advice. Here's the issue. If your party has trouble with the fundamental mechanics of the fight (dodging the puddles consistently and the tank grabbing the bees immediately), then it's unlikely you will succeed in bringing down the Demon Wall with any consistency. This is because the previous mechanics are still present while the bees are distracting your tank and inflicting massive damage on him and any nearby party members (due to their circular AoE skill).

You should always be thinking only in terms of what is necessary to take down the Demon Wall before the bees spawn. If you play cautiously and you're pre-occupied with healing party members who fail to dodge puddles, then you or your party is not qualified to clear this encounter with any ease. If you do things such as those listed below, you are only extending your misery and making it even more difficult to pass this encounter.

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Originally Posted by Kiln

2. Us Sacred Soil in upon 2nd repel. This will decrease the damage of any party member in it by 10%. Helps until the tank established threat.

4. Pre-cast Adlo, Succor, and/or Stoneskin (if you have it). Do this during the non-running phase just before 2nd repel. It will provide some extra shielding so you can go a few seconds without healing until the tank establishes threat.

In a nutshell, you want to perform as any actions as you can prior to, or immediately after (that don't draw threat), the 2nd repel that will mitigate damage.

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This is bad advice. You should not be dropping any heals on your party before the bees come out.

The only exception is, as other posts have mentioned, if an Adloquium shield would prevent the party members from being knocked back. This is especially useful if you have black mages in your group.

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This fight is not a test of your healing output. It is a test of the party's ability to confidently dodge puddles while sustaining massive damage output onto the Demon Wall. This includes your own damage output.

You saying that is bad advice seems like you are basing it off of someone with level 70+ gear. For the record, I always cleric for this and dps the hell out of the wall. For a new group with i50 gear, that is absolutely not the best choice.

Yes, he is a DPS check, but this is a negligible check that occurs way past bees phase. The reason for not straight out DPSing this boss as a healer is this: If your dps are new and not familiar with how to predodge the initial attacks, the heals need to exist to prevent them from dying when they are targeted by murder hole (which does considerably more damage to an i50). Long before we all rushed this fight with OP DPS, there was a time when you needed to fight well into the bee phase.

Also, casting Succor before the fight (immediately before) and during quiet phases with Stoneskin is not bad advice at all. Since galvanize takes the damage, you'll carry stoneskin longer through the battle. Maybe 10 seconds longer. But long enough to save some time and cast dots at the beginning.

i have cleared AK-Demon Wall as all roles, DPS,Tank and Healer, so I think i could give a good view on what each roles need to be done to advance smoothly. For Tank, i only have played Pal so far, so can not give any advice on War

1/Before engaging, plan out your strategy. When the adds spawn, let the DPS know which will be taken down first or having the tank mark the target.
2/Upon engaging, DPS MUST NOT getting hit by his AOE straight line period. If one of them getting hit, immidiately "Leeches" slow on that DPS.They also HAVE TO know the position when it comes to Repel.Healing as normal.
3/Before the second repel, if the DPS are caster typed, ask them to activate Sprint 2s BEFORE the cast finish casting.By doing so, they wont get hit by AOE field on the back. As for Tank, (as Paladin), activate TEMPERED WILL 2s BEFORE the repel goes off and he wont be knocked back.Healing as normal.
4/When the adds spawn, either having Tank gathers them all and stay ay one side, and having the Catser DPS uses Limit Break on the crow, then quickly take them down one by one or by AOE (with an ilv50 DPS, the LB will still reduce the health on both of them to less than 50%,making them easy to kill them both in the shortest time) or having all DPS focus on the marked one (planed beforehand), kill it then proceed to the other. For having easier time to gather adds, Pal can activate HALLOW GROUND if able, and the job be the walk in a park. While doing all this, all party members MUST NOT get hit by the boss AOE (Bee AOE is fine) and MUST AWARE of their positioning when Repel is coming. As for Healers, all you do is to spam AOE Heal (Succor or Medica), given that the DPS and Tank NOT getting hit by the boss AOE.
5/ When the adds are all killed, burn the boss down and healing as normal.

In a nutshell:

As Tank: Use your defensive Cooldown and heal yourself if able while you MUST get aggro on all the Ads. Avoid getting hit by the boss AOE at all cost and prevent getting Knock off the platform.
As DPS: If you are Caster, use your LB when the tank gathered all adds around the designated area and take them down from there. If you are Melee DPS, use LB on the marked target and quickly take them down.You MUST NOT get hit by the boss AOE at all cost and prevent getting knock off the platform, can take the Bee AOE though.
As Healer: Healing like normal until the adds phase and spam AOE heals until all adds are dead, given you, the tank, and the DPS MUST NOT getting hit by the boss AoE.

You dont need overgeared members to kill him but you do need an experienced members to take him down smoothly.

As for Fairy goes, you can set it to stay at Mid to prevent being knocked off the platform and re-place it after the first and second Repel. or you can put her to follow.

You are going to get various information on what to do with the fairy I am afraid. I placed my Selene from the first time I ever did it. Place her in the middle right on the mark that you see on the targeting circle when you have DW targeted. You will have to move her back after a repel but is that really such a big deal? Having her on follow can get her hit with slow from the outside floor AoEs and this is detrimental where as the middle gravity debuff is nothing to worry about.

Stay in Cleric Stance until repel. Succor and SS before repel goes off. The pattern is two floor AoE rotations and then a repel. Rince and repeat.

Leave Selene on Sic and let her worry about her own CDs for the spell speed and skill speed. She will be able to handle all the healing with you doing Succors before repels UNLESS you have DPS/TANK that are not moving out of floor AoEs. Even then you might not be able to save the first if they can't dodge them and that is NOT your fault.

Last note, preemptively move. Start out on one of the sides (I always go on the right). Once you get the timing down you can actually move into the middle while the floor is still purple. But don't do that till you get really well knowing the timing. After the middle AoE move and then after the Side AoEs move back to the sides.

That should be all you need to do assuming the DPS and Tank are moving like they should. I find it hard to believe that i55 can get this down before Bees or even close to being down before Bees. Because of this, save the LB for the Bees. If you have a melee have them LB one of them and the tank take one. If you don't have a mage LB both of them and have the tank take both and pick one to kill first. There is a trick to using your fairy to tank the bees while being off of the floor from a repel but I didn't know about this ability before I was well overgeared for it and finish before Bees spawn so I cannot help ya there.

Huh? I always ask my party members to click off stone-skin because after it wears off, you get the repel effect which can throw people off.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Huh? I always ask my party members to click off stone-skin because after it wears off, you get the repel effect which can throw people off.

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That is pointless. If you have SS or not you should always group up in middle anyway so I don't see why you would do this.

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Originally Posted by Maku

That is pointless. If you have SS or not you should always group up in middle anyway so I don't see why you would do this.

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Because sometimes: Repel -> Stoneskin absorbs damage/effects -> You move away from center to the edge in order to dodge middle void zone -> Stoneskin expires -> Repel effect kicks in -> You Dead.

That's happened to my group before.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Because sometimes: Repel -> Stoneskin absorbs damage/effects -> You move away from center to the edge in order to dodge middle void zone -> Stoneskin expires -> Repel effect kicks in -> You Dead.

That's happened to my group before.

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Seriously? This has never ever happened to me before and I keep SS on the part. I have never heard of this happening and if it is happening it is a pretty major bug. I would like to hear if anyone else has had this happpen. It is just a bit unbelievable. Something else has to be happening.

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Originally Posted by Maku

Seriously? This has never ever happened to me before and I keep SS on the part. I have never heard of this happening and if it is happening it is a pretty major bug. I would like to hear if anyone else has had this happpen. It is just a bit unbelievable. Something else has to be happening.

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Really? I used to be able to reproduce that effect reliably. Where stone-skin absorbs the knock-back and then you get the knock-back once it dissolves.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread on it here somewhere. Found it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...all-seriously/

That's why, just to be safe and prevent random things from happening, I always tell everyone to click stone-skin off and never apply it during demon wall.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

Really? I used to be able to reproduce that effect reliably. Where stone-skin absorbs the knock-back and then you get the knock-back once it dissolves.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread on it here somewhere. Found it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...all-seriously/

That's why, just to be safe and prevent random things from happening, I always tell everyone to click stone-skin off and never apply it during demon wall.

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What you said has never happened to me and it sounds more like a latency issue. You move too early, lag kicks in, you take damage despite stoneskin (yes it happens quite often, depending the hp of the target) and then get knocked off.

The things discussed in the thread:
Stoneskin stopping repel from going off since there is no damage going through
Stoneskin not stopping repel because there is damage getting through (Stoneskin gets used up by the small attack the wall does so it might expire the moment Repel goes off with additional damage).
A player going too far forward and the game thinking you are past the Well thus porting you back to the start
Lag and delay in knockback and moving too early and then getting knocked off.

Again, you issue is pretty much a combination of the above.

Again - I have to say, from personal experience, I've only had this occur with stone-skin on.

I've had a dragoon party member fall off when he obviously knew the fight. And he feel off after the repel phase was long done. He said to me - wow, delay on the repel - that's weird. Next run, after we failed, I didn't stone-skin and nothing happened. I guess it could be that he just walked off the platform really fast Michael Jackson style <_<

I've had the same experience. Apply stoneskin to myself. No damage during repel. Took damage from one of Demon Wall's random AOEs - eating through stone-skin, repelled (though this was after the dragoon experiment and I was halfway expecting it, so did not get knocked off).

I've experience with latency. Unless latency lasts several seconds where everyone else is still moving and other Demon wall mechanics aren't affected by it... it wasn't latency.

Edit: Of course I haven't ran AK for a good few months with SS on. Maybe they patched it.

I strongly disagree with keeping fairy on follow during this fight. If she's on follow, she almost ALWAYS gets hit by slow. Which really hurts. I usually place her in the center, so she only gets hit by the heavy debuff. Just remember to place her back after repel.

Keep her on Obey til the part when the bees come. Then Rouse+Fey Illumination+Whispering dawn in that order. Super easy after that. Eos should be tanking bees if tank was unable to obtain aggro. Sustain should keep her alive. May need to Lustrate. DPS should burn the walls while tank/Eos keep the bees distracted. Sacred Soil is a lifesaver with the bees, use it and love it.

Try to Cleric Stance until the repel when the bees come. SCHs do a ton of dmg, and makes the fight go a lot quicker. Fairy should be able to handle things on her own til then, feel free to Lustrate though as it's not affected by CS.

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Originally Posted by MagusVandel

You saying that is bad advice seems like you are basing it off of someone with level 70+ gear. For the record, I always cleric for this and dps the hell out of the wall. For a new group with i50 gear, that is absolutely not the best choice.

Yes, he is a DPS check, but this is a negligible check that occurs way past bees phase. The reason for not straight out DPSing this boss as a healer is this: If your dps are new and not familiar with how to predodge the initial attacks, the heals need to exist to prevent them from dying when they are targeted by murder hole (which does considerably more damage to an i50). Long before we all rushed this fight with OP DPS, there was a time when you needed to fight well into the bee phase.

Also, casting Succor before the fight (immediately before) and during quiet phases with Stoneskin is not bad advice at all. Since galvanize takes the damage, you'll carry stoneskin longer through the battle. Maybe 10 seconds longer. But long enough to save some time and cast dots at the beginning.

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I think it's important for me to note that I don't consider taking damage from the Murder Holes to be part of the encounter with the Demon Wall. Party members absolutely should not be getting hit with the Slow or Heavy effects. The healer should not be presuming that this will occur and preparing party members with SS and Adloquium.

An analogy is the three-healer strategy for Titan, which is there because it presumes that party members will be hit by Weight of the Land or Bomb Boulders.

If you are cutting short healer's DPS from being off Cleric Stance (or outright replacing a DPS, as in the three-healer Titan strategy), then you are just delaying your misery. As I said, if you are carrying party members deep into the bee phase because they can't dodge puddles, then it's going to be even more difficult to dodge those mechanics when the bees are out and placing red AoE effects over a large portion of the arena. In addition, because the bees deal massive damage to the tank, the healer will now be pre-occupied with keeping the tank alive, and if your party has been dependent on your SS and Adloquium to avoid damage and debuffs from Murder Holes, then you're now in very big trouble.

The exception to this, of course, is a party-wide Succor to block the repel knockback effect. I'm not sure if it's even strong enough to do this, but Adloquium on each of the DPS would probably be a better idea. This is mostly because repel can cut several actions out of their rotation, which is worth more in damage than a handful of Cleric Stance spells.

This advice applies equally to players who are at the minimum item level requirement. (Actually, even more so, because lower item level parties are in dire straits the further they get into bee phase, whereas high item level parties can afford to fool around and still win)

The DPS check is not the game over at the end where the Demon Wall pushes you off the edge. The DPS check is the entire fight, where the bees are essentially a message of, "I hope the Demon Wall is at less than 33% HP or you are going to die very soon". The fight is over when the healer is hit by a Murder Hole because they need to stand still to chain cast heals on the tank (who will be very squishy at low item level).

In the early period of the game, this encounter did extend well into the bee phase, I agree. But I contend that this does not mean that you should spend the first part of the encounter hunkering down in preparation for the bees and casting shields on party members who should not be getting hit by Murder Holes in the first place, let alone "preventing them from dying" (which sounds like they are being hit by multiple Murder Holes).

If you do think that it's a healer's job to do that kind of pre-shielding, which I consider to be carrying, we'd all be doing an immense disservice to the community. Party members that can not reliably dodge Murder Holes simply should not be passing this fight, and healers should not be enabling them to do so. Obviously, we all need time to learn, and new players should have the chance to experience the game. This is completely distinct from carrying new players through a fight the first time when they should be spending at least a half dozen to a dozen tries understanding and perfecting (and we all know that it took even way more than that for some of the early pioneers). This game progresses vertically pretty well, and the Demon Wall is meant to be a learning opportunity and challenge to prepare new players for even more difficult mechanics with the hard mode Primals. It is not some artificial barrier to be taken down by better-prepared and skilled party members, who are robbing them of the tough lessons they need to learn about the importance of mastering mechanics and giving the healer breathing space to Cleric Stance. Obviously even the most-prepared players will occasionally be hit by a Murder Hole (or due to server lag), but it's the exception, not the rule.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

and if your party has been dependent on your SS and Adloquium to avoid damage and debuffs from Murder Holes, then you're now in very big trouble.

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Murder Hole isn't the straight purple AoE's on the ground, it is an attack the boss itself does with a target. You don't avoid murder hole, though from what I gather it does more damage based on how close people are to each other.

Sometimes u dont have time to target thr boss to apply virus, make a macro with /ac "Virus" <tt> that way u can still aplly virus while u r still targeting the tank or the dps, also, making macros to micro manage your pet is very usefull, i recommend macros instead of placing her

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

*snip*

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I couldn't agree with you more that it is a form of carrying. DPS should understand the fight better and they should learn the mechanics.


However, I am in disagreement with the utter refusal to carry DPS in some cases for two reasons:
1. It would make using the Duty Finder pointless as most of the groups I have had in there require me to be at my A game in order for them to have a shot. Their fault? Most likely, but it doesn't change the fact that without them I cannot finish the dungeon. It is for that very reason that I help push them through in order to not waste my time. In addition, if DPS was lousy, I usually try to provide them tips on how that fight can go smoother in the future. Mostly this advice is met with praise on lower-level and about 50/50 praise/anger on endgame. Human nature makes the anger expected (I got mad when a tank who failed in Haukke and then complained that I had the wrong fairy out, but I kept it to myself).

And the only other reason I find plausible

2. They may be good players with a laggy connection that they just haven't figured out their lag yet. I know I was there (thank you Time Warner) on Titan HM for a while. Sometimes the problem isn't PEBKAC, but internet-related.

I'm not in disagreement with you that other people should do their job and I'm glad your answer was well thought out. If you are running with friends, your way also works out brilliantly(my tank friend has just recently come back and we are refusing to carry him, instead having him learn the fights for endgame). But I also see things like Demon Wall as a chance to work on one's own abilities in making the system work as well as possible. I don't see why both ways cannot coexist, as long as the DPS are understanding that they are failing and not everyone is willing to give them that extra edge. Which, with i50 gear, isn't an edge really, but more of a way to see how you can bring the most out of your class.