SCH vs WHM

Thanx SE for giving us SCH Lustrate increase to 25% from 20%. A whm was complaining to me during Ultima that he doesn't have Lustrate which I can only assume his envy of an instacast heal. My reply to him was simply: "Scholar's heals do not tick! Call it even?"

Seriously though SE please balance out Sch more so that we are up to par with Whm. It seems like Sch is simply a supporting role to Whm at the moment. You can do anything with 2 Whm and a bard in an 8 party but you struggle with 2 Sch and I have people complaining "damn two sch" and left party before we even begin. Please at least give us a ticking healing ability. Regen would be great! Or better still, make succor tick. Try doing Pharious' last boss Siren with a Sch and it is tedious!

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Originally Posted by MsKirsten

"Scholar's heals do not tick! Call it even?"

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http://i.imgur.com/wKk5UYv.png


And we'll call it even when WHM gets proper mana regen. SCH has a lot of damage mitigation and party-wide buffs. All WHM can do is heal; I should hope we have stronger heal capabilities. Stop trying to make the two overlap; they have different jobs despite both being healers. If SCH/SCH is that big of a problem, then SE needs to fix the way shields stack, not buff SCH/nerf WHM.

SCH and WHM both have their perks, giving the perks of one class to the other would be a terrible idea. Having a shield would be awesome, but it will never happen for WHM, because that's not how the class is meant to work. In many situations SCH are arguably better, better MP management, less enmity, damage mitigation, and free heals from your pet. Your class isn't weak by any stretch, you just have to learn to play it to its full potential. I have both leveled to 50, i prefer WHM, but many perfer SCH, and there's nothing wrong with that. SCH and WHM are best when played with each other. :)

PS Whispering Dawn from Eos is a regen ability

SCH+WHM >>>>>> WHM+WHM

Oh fun...a SCH vs WHM thread :/

Not that we already have a thousands and every other thread with another topic sooner or later gets turned into a SCH vs WHM thread anyway.

Not going to comment on the whole job discussions as I have done that a lot in the past but on your Pharos comment:

Lustrated totally ignores the healing debuff from Lunatic Voice. Use it.
Also have your tank interrupt Lunatic Voice = win.
Make sure your group knows what to do when Siren disappears to avoid the AoE Charm timer and tell them to kill the seargents first.
I find healing Pharos on my SCH easier than on my WHM. SCH is king when it comes to single target healing and you should have absolutely no issue with Siren if your group knows what to do.

why????!!!
doing both, like both
none of these job is more OP than the other one, both have pros and cons
when I am a scholar, I crave for regen and medica 2, when I am WHM I wish I had lustrate and the fairy
in FFXIV you can be both, so be both or just one if you like only one of the 2
enough with those pointless threads

Hmmm i think i have seen that post already. Maybe i'am wrong and its new.

Whm is not better than scholar and vice versa.
Whm have better aoe recovery (raid healer)
Sch have better single target healing (tank healer)
That said I have done things like Ifrit EX with 2 schs it requires more skill, but is doable.

EoS + Physick = 700 potency heal
Cure II = 650 potency heal

SCH = Single target
WHM medica II = AoE

The significance in heal difference is minuscule and they are both adequate classes. SPREAD THE WORD, STOP THESE THREADS.

SCH+SCH = bad.
WHM+WHM = good.
WHM+SCH = best.

SCH mitigation doesn't stack, so having two is generally ill advised (in my opinion)

I actually think SCH beats WHM because it brings more to the table than just heals. If BRD is DPS/support then SCH is heal/support. I think SCH does lack some aoe healing but that's WHM strength and you can get around it by macroing succor and whispering dawn for an aoe heal, aoe shield and aoe regen to top people off.

both are good healer's and play their role in the raid, as a SCH you really shouldn't be to worried about healing like a WHM does its not your area.

I can tell you for sure SCH is by far the better single target healer and this is what they were designed to be, they keep the tank topped and support the WHM's raid healing by shielding the raid! WHM is the king of raid healing and benefit from the having a good SCH that can focus tank while the WHM keeps the raid up with spot and AOE healing.

there is no better we both have our role and if everyone in a party plays their role correctly and dodges mechanic's that should be avoided aswell as interrupt, pick up adds, and dps down mobs that can wipe a raid there should be no issue healing any 4 man dungeon (including pharos) and especially any other raid.

Depends on situation.
But sch/sch is better than whm/whm

If schs had big heals like whm, whm would be obselete

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Depends on situation.
But sch/sch is better than whm/whm

If schs had big heals like whm, whm would be obselete

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no way, everything a WHM does stacks with other WHM, SCH doesn't stack with SCH :(

Oh, hey, this thread again...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYo...rt-Popcorn.gif

Regardless of balance, SCH just feels a lot more fun to play because of all the micromanaging that you can do with your pets. Then again, it's always cool to see a mantra + Cure 3 top your entire raid up from 20%~ hp as WHM.

Like others said, they are both good. I play SCH as my main since 2.0 and I would personally give it to WHM overall, mainly because of better AoE healing. The only way a SCH can really make up for the AoE healing is by Fey Illum + Rouse + WD and Succor spam and that's only every 27-30 secs CD on Rouse and WD with 100 sec CD on Fey Illum. With the glitch/nerf on the pets healing rate/AI and the increase on their Embrace timer, it kinda makes it a little more annoying. IMO, the main changes they should do for SCH are:

1. Give SCH job traits that actually benefit them. If not Mind, then give us Piety (since it is the buff we give for light/full party)
2. Revert the pet's AI back to 2.0. I don't know if it's because of my PS3 or the changes they made, but the AI and healing rate is gltichy with post 2.1
3. Make SCH specific pet actions for controlling them. ("Free stance", "Obey" and what not...)
4. Make the recast timer of Embrace equal to Physick.

Sorry double SCH is better.
-dps that doesn't require us to stop healing
-dps buff to party and our healing/dps
-spell speed potential 50% which happens quite often
-more heals per second
-almost constant regen on par with medica
-we can silence, and no need for manasong removes need to lose dps for bard
-controlled inst heals
-group mitigation

Sch+sch sucks. While eos does have an aoe regen the cd is a little long to make really useful unless you alternate, which takes alot more effort then just a double medica. And for aoe heavy stuff like ultima your pretty much just spaming succor for an overpowering 150 potency after the first trying to top people off. Silence with selena is trash, most important silences happen on a quick cast time and if shes casting embrace it wont go off till she finishes. Leave the silencing to bards and pld.

SCH and WHM both viable for all content. I play both and use either one depending on the fight or who I have healing beside me.

There is no better healing class. End.

Can't tell if bad SCH or just a troll....

Lol.
Not a bad sch, I think you guys have had bad exps with schs.
Silence with selene is completely viable lol. It is instant provjding she is in range.
My succor is base 450 6/8 crit for 700
All you need is communication between the schs and they are great.
Problem with most of you forum crawlers is that you can't get off the bandwagon, and almost laughable that half of you think because players you've encountered suck, that's a fair representation of a class. Anywho said my side. Have fun

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Problem with most of you forum crawlers is that you can't get off the bandwagon, and almost laughable that half of you think because players you've encountered suck, that's a fair representation of a class. Anywho said my side. Have fun

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The problem with two Scholars is that an important part of their utility doesn't stack, and they lack the ability compensate for each other's weaknesses. Galvanize effect is an amazing ability, but there's going to be a lot of waste of this ability with a second Scholar because there's no stacking of the effect. Also, the Scholar's weakness is AoE healing. A White Mage partner more than covers for this, but there's not much another Scholar can do. And the non-stacking effect of galvanize means the weaker Scholar AoE is even weaker when paired with another Scholar because you're only getting an effective 1.5 Succor when both Scholars cast it. Even a Rouse+Fey Illumination+Fey Light isn't as much help, because it can only be cast once a minute at that strength by each Scholar.

It's not that two Scholar parties are not viable, it's that they aren't able to achieve their full potential when paired even when played by two competent players. Certain fights, especially AoE heavy ones like Titan can make it unnecessarily harder by bringing two Scholars. Two White Mages can overcome their weaknesses by simply healing through them since all of their abilities stack. A White Mage and a Scholar together are the best, simply because they completely complement eachother by accounting for each other's weaknesses while taking full advantage of their strengths.

c mon, get sirious xD, use your pet, USE IT, pharaos siren fight its so easy but u must use your pet, macro the pet abilities to your usual skills and u will be overhealing and say, OMG Im a great scholar, belive me, Eos or Selene work better in Obey than in Sick ooh and also we mitigate damage so... a titan fight can be solo healed by a scholar

450 succor base my ass. Im hitting just under 400 non crits with more mind then you. That would be like saying you hit 900 on medica normaly and the chance of 6/8 critting is super low since cap crit rate is like around 18%

im looking at those glorious moments doin titan em or sometimes hm with 2 sch rather than 2 whm

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Originally Posted by MsKirsten

Seriously though SE please balance out Sch more so that we are up to par with Whm. It seems like Sch is simply a supporting role to Whm at the moment. You can do anything with 2 Whm and a bard in an 8 party but you struggle with 2 Sch and I have people complaining "damn two sch" and left party before we even begin. Please at least give us a ticking healing ability. Regen would be great! Or better still, make succor tick. Try doing Pharious' last boss Siren with a Sch and it is tedious!

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I beg to differ! Siren with a SCH isn't tedious at all. I've run the dungeon with both Scholars and White Mages and they all find it on the same level. All you have to know is when to avoid stuff and all, then you should be fine. Never really had a problem with any of the two healers, really. The only difference I can see is the Healing over Time as you've mentioned and AoE healing.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

im looking at those glorious moments doin titan em or sometimes hm with 2 sch rather than 2 whm

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SCH/WHM works better than WHM/WHM.

As for solo healing I prefer SCH for Titan HM.

Here's something funny I want to try myself though, it gave me a few laughs; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_liIIYDuj4

Got into an argument with a SCH/WHM player the other day. I said "I prefer rolling with 2 WHMs because they are smoother." He laughed at me, and proceeded to fail healing Garuda EX. Sorry, but I prefer 2 WHMs. You just can't beat 2x regen + 2x Med II for passive healing preparation. This is conditional to fights. Titan HM still works better with WHM/SCH. Can't speak on Titan EX because I can't get a group together who can manage spiney and sisters correctly.

Anyway, imho, 2x WHM > WHM/SCH and probably > 2x SCH.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Got into an argument with a SCH/WHM player the other day. I said "I prefer rolling with 2 WHMs because they are smoother." He laughed at me, and proceeded to fail healing Garuda EX. Sorry, but I prefer 2 WHMs. You just can't beat 2x regen + 2x Med II for passive healing preparation.

Anyway, imho, 2x WHM > WHM/SCH and probably > 2x SCH.

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To each their own on what works best for them I guess. I like going SCH/WHM because it works like a dream for AoE healing; SCH prepares the party for the damage and mitigates most of it through Succor and Sacred Soil, WHM heals the damage. It works the same for single target; my Adloquium can provide anything up to around a 3,000 HP barrier; that coupled with a WHM 1200-1500 HP Stoneskin and you have some serious mitigation, that can easily prepare a tank for a Death Sentance, Mountain Buster or Wicked Wheel.

By the way, don't let one bad player turn you away from Scholars.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Anyway, imho, 2x WHM > WHM/SCH and probably > 2x SCH.

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Absolutely not. Especially with the current crit rng on tanks and how the server deals with damage and healing.
Damage gets added before healing which means a mitigation shield such as from succor and adloqium is ALWAYS better. Double crit from a Dreadnaught is a sure death with two WHMs while a WHM/SCH combo has the mitigation and then the reaction from the WHM (just to make a VERY crude example). Sure, with a group that totally outgears content it doesn't matter which combination you have but for groups who are just about right for an encounter there is NOTHING that beats a WHM/SCH combo.
Your regen medica 2 combo doesn't mitigate damage it just patches it up. There is nothing to patch up if your target is dead.

Also just because you had that bad experience with a SCH doesn't make the job as a whole less viable. WHM/WHM combo is by far not smoother because you are prone to much more spikes while a SCH/WHM duo who knows what they are doing (just saying that since you had a bad experience) will have a much more stable situation at hand.

I urge you to level a SCH so you understand the class better and see exactly how the synergy between the two healers work.

With a good SCH and WHM pair, in my experience, things are a ton more smooth. Turn 4, for example. With 2 WHM, both end up pretty low on MP in certain circumstances, depending on which strategy you use. But with a WHM and a SCH, as WHM I never even got close to using half my MP even while constantly curing.

As WHM, I love a good SCH co-healer.

2 SCH can do all the way up to and including T5 of Coil. If people are leaving because they see 2 SCH then they have no idea what they're talking about. /fail

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Absolutely not. Especially with the current crit rng on tanks and how the server deals with damage and healing.
Damage gets added before healing which means a mitigation shield such as from succor and adloqium is ALWAYS better. Double crit from a Dreadnaught is a sure death with two WHMs while a WHM/SCH combo has the mitigation and then the reaction from the WHM (just to make a VERY crude example). Sure, with a group that totally outgears content it doesn't matter which combination you have but for groups who are just about right for an encounter there is NOTHING that beats a WHM/SCH combo.
Your regen medica 2 combo doesn't mitigate damage it just patches it up. There is nothing to patch up if your target is dead.

Also just because you had that bad experience with a SCH doesn't make the job as a whole less viable. WHM/WHM combo is by far not smoother because you are prone to much more spikes while a SCH/WHM duo who knows what they are doing (just saying that since you had a bad experience) will have a much more stable situation at hand.

I urge you to level a SCH so you understand the class better and see exactly how the synergy between the two healers work.

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I plan to level a SCH one day. I know the pair can have great synergy depending on the fight (such as Titan HM). I am not sure I agree with mitigation potency. For example, Garuda EX: I know after the split--> jump that the MT is about to eat 2 wheels. So I cast SS on him and both healers are focused on him when they reappear. I usually start casting cure II seconds after they reappear, and 9/10 times, my heal lands in between the dual wheels, which does offset the damage. It doesn't work 100% of the time, and it might be safer to have a SCH use their shell at that point, but most scholars I run with don't seem to know how to play their class (with a WHM at least), as I rarely see that shell go up. I fear that when I level a SCH, I will only have disregard for players of that class even more than I tend to do now. A good SCH is really hard to find, I guess you could say :) So congrats on being in the minority of good SCHs.


And remember, 2x regen and 2x Med II = 4 ticks of healing. That pretty much means every second = a heal, which is some form of mitigation. It may not seem stellar, but watching that 50% health meter zip back up to full with 4x ticks is kind of a beautiful thing.

well..i SCH and my co-healer (WHM) in our static group always doing the trial, CoB and dungeon together...never had an issue.
for garuda ex for example, i (SCH) will be focus on main tank. my Main tank preferred me, because i know when i need to stonskin/aldo/eye2eye him,
for example for Wicked wheel, i know when garuda want to do 2 ww, then i gave all that, sss,e2e,aldo..and after that lustrate to make him in full hp
no issue..my whm watching my raid health..so far nobody complain.

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Originally Posted by mraz_syah

well..i SCH and my co-healer (WHM) in our static group always doing the trial, CoB and dungeon together...never had an issue.
for garuda ex for example, i (SCH) will be focus on main tank. my Main tank preferred me, because i know when i need to stonskin/aldo/eye2eye him,
for example for Wicked wheel, i know when garuda want to do 2 ww, then i gave all that, sss,e2e,aldo..and after that lustrate to make him in full hp
no issue..my whm watching my raid health..so far nobody complain.

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Why would your SS be preferred? If you're in a group with a WHM and stoneskin is a preferred heal to utilize, such as in that fight, your SS is not ideal. Considering the OT needs little supervision, there's no reason you should be using SS on the MT. But if the tactic works, hey, that's all that matters :)

And if a SCH overrides my SS (not sure if they can), I will be one mad WHM.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Why would your SS be preferred? If you're in a group with a WHM and stoneskin is a preferred heal to utilize, such as in that fight, your SS is not ideal. Considering the OT needs little supervision, there's no reason you should be using SS on the MT. But if the tactic works, hey, that's all that matters :)

And if a SCH overrides my SS (not sure if they can), I will be one mad WHM.

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well..like i said, i focus on MT and WHM on the OT + Raid, not my stoneskin that MT preferred...but MT prefer me to focus on him
yeah WHM have a great benefits for stoneskin, but he know i am stoneskin the MT coz i focus on him, so why not?
as long as i can mitigate some damage there, its good for everybody coz our MT not dead
in the end, just follow ur own strategy..if u want WHM stoneskin him..then just tell that before fight
"hey WHM, everytime b4 Double WW, u stoneskin MT kay?"
thats it

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

snip

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You should have adlo AND SS up on the tank and melee anyway for WW. Again, SCH/WHM = adlo shield and SS while WHM/WHM only SS.
There is hardly any situation where you need to have 2x regen and 2x medica up not to mention you can't sustain that for long both MP and enmity wise. Not to mention good luck with that combo for encounters such as T4 where you have to have enmity at pretty much zero for transitions. Regens are quite a tricky beast for end game content if you are not careful. Medica II and regen up while the sisters spawn on Garuda EX is also not fun.
Adlo and Succor plus SS means you don't have to start burst healing immediately and are less likely to pull aggro during transitions.

Not to mention SCH is just the better single player healer, hands down :)
Embrace + Physic + lustrate + adlo = divine

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Originally Posted by Kyomih

Y
Not to mention SCH is just the better single player healer, hands down :)
Embrace + Physic + lustrate + adlo = divine

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I don't have an SCH to agree nor disagree. But I know MMOs, and even if this is true, it won't be for long :)

SCH/SCH > WHM/SCH >>>> WHM/WHM

Whispering stacks. Fey illumination can be used in succession for 40 full seconds. Fey covenant, one of the biggest buffs I see ignored on these forums quite frequently, times 2 for 40 full seconds of magic resistance. Four healers, two bot raid healers. 6 lustrates at any given time with possibility of 12 in burst or 4 lustrates and 2 soils used in succession and not stacked. Improved virus x2. SCH efficiency greatly exceeds WHM efficiency, freeing up BRD manapool to be used strictly for increasing SMN and BLM DPS. Lustrate >> benediction (way too long of a CD). Two healers that can use preemptive shielding on the entire raid and the tanks >>>>>>>> two healers who can use crappy regen from medica 2 (less than rous'd whispering) and regen/stoneskin on a tank where stoneskin doesn't stack and consumes too much MP most of the time to justify the cast.

Have too much healing? One SCH can use a DPS improving pet. DoTs > direct damage that WHM offers.

Only reason I'd ever want a WHM is for holy spam on fights where it doesn't even matter.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

I don't have an SCH to agree nor disagree. But I know MMOs, and even if this is true, it won't be for long :)

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It's a simple numbers game. The healing throughput with no GCD on Embrace, instant lustrate plus the normal SCH heals vs. the casting time from a WHMs single target heals (minus benediction which I don't consider an actual tool in our toolbox for healing throughput). It's more HPS on a single target. Also both Embrace and lustrate can be cast on the run while the adlo shield is up.

Mind you, this is not a "SCH is better than WHM"- statement above. Just explaining why SCH is the more powerful single target healer.

Sure you can Cure II and swiftcast Cure II to try to match it but it still won't be as sustainable as a SCH's HPS. Also MP wise.