Considered BiS for WHM?

What do you think would be considered BiS for a WHM? I am trying to figure out what I should be shooting for and am not to sure about end game gear.

White mages will generally stack either Determination or Spell Speed as their priority secondary stat, mnd is of course valued above all else.

Follow the link to my profile to get an idea of what to aim for as a Det build, once I get the Garuda ring and allag hat I'll have my 'personal BiS' set.

Ok Thank you.

I go for primary-speed secondary-det personally . Mostly due to stoneskin(which does not scale from det or crit). I have it at 2.8 cast time now. Quicker gcd and quicker stoneskin is nice to have for tank healing. But even after putting speed in nearly all slots. I only recieve a .2 cast speed reduction and a .15 gcd reduction =/.

All three secondary stats are underwhelming and not something you should worry about. Det is also quite overrated on these forums. Full build(det in every slot) gives like 30 hp to cure and 50 hp to cure 2. Heals fluctuate too so you may repeatedly "roll low" healing for 1000 instead of 1050.
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ng-calculator/
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...aling-returns/
Here are tools to show the effects of secondary stats. Doesn't show any major difference when you change stats around.

Base crit at 50 is 5% and every extra 14 crit rating is 1% crit.

Yes for WHM there really is no ideal secondary or tertiary stat to focus on due to how horribly they scale.

BiS for WHM is pretty much ANYTHING*iLvl 90 (most mind). As long as it has a lot of Mind, feel free to mix and match to your liking.

My whm build (det/crit build)
-thyrus +1 or allagan weapon
-allagan circlet
-allagan robe
-allagan gloves
-hero's belt
-cleric pants
-cleric boots
-allagan necklace
-allagan earrings
-ifrit bracelet
-allagan ring
-Garuda ring

For my spell speed build
-allagan staff
-cleric circlet
-cleric robe
-cleric gloves
-allagan rope belt
-cleric pants
-allagan boots
-allagan neck
-Titan earrings
-allagan bracelet
-allagan ring
-Garuda ring

The reason I made a determination crit build is that I've mesmerized fights really quickly and have learned to predict things such as damage spikes, etc, so I never need speed. Even in emergencies I can usually top off anyone with just a cure 1.

I use my spell speed build when trying new content that I've never done so I can quickly react and learn patterns.

Something I went through and looked at the other day to put some hard numbers to determination vs. spell speed. Breaking it up into two posts since the forums won't let me post more than 1000 characters.

I'm using http://syncness.me/ffxiv to calculate changes to average heals based on gear change.

SS > DET > CRIT I end up with
INT: 210
MND: 497
PIE: 407
DTR: 249
CRT: 341
SPSD: 510

DET > SS > CRIT ends up with
INT: 210
MND: 497
PIE: 406
DTR: 304
CRT: 341
SPSD: 433


Basing all averages off of Cure 1

Average for SS build is 1040.34 vs 1066 for DET which translates into just a difference of just 3.8 HPS in favor of the SS build (essentially non existent)

Cast time is 1.871 seconds for SS, 1.93 for DET

Using Presence of Mind in critical moments gets 1.482 vs 1.6

Conclusions:

The difference in healing is negligible, as a WHM there is no issue with the healing output of our spells. As encounters in end game content seems to trend towards spike damage, getting a tank out of the danger zone is more important than getting an extra 25 HPs restored per cure. The big help here is remembering to use presence of mind as that's when you'll see the biggest difference between the two specs (.118 seconds). Both determination and spell speed take a huge amount to see any change at all, so it really is personally preference as far as which is better. I also think that if anything square is more likely to make spell speed builds better in the future if it's not utilized much. The 2.1 changes made this better for options now with more gear having spell speed (primal accessories)

I personally prefer Crit > Det > SS. Crit may not effect stoneskin, but it does effect regen, which is extremely useful. In my opinion, crit builds are the most noticeable ones. Mainly because both spell speed and det's returns are near worthless in my opinion. Having an extra 13% or more crit is a very big deal when you are spamming cure1, or regen/medica2 is ticking on possibly multiple people at once.

No encounter really requires insane constant HPS for a long enough period where DET can really shine. However, tons of encounters have big spikes of damage where crits come in handy.
Spell speeds bonus's are so small, and they will most likely get completely nullified when server/computer lag is taken into account. Also, a huge part of WHM healing is precasting cures, which when done, will cause spell speed to be 100% useless.

Some may argue that "crits are unpredictable," or that "crits only overheal," but having a crit heal during a death sentence or on double dreadnaught healing is essentially the same thing as using benediction because it allows you to completely recover from a tight spot and allow you to catch up without blowing CDs or spending a large amount of mana, and when you are spamming those heals, crits have a good chance of happening. Crits can potentially save me hundreds, if not thousands of mana per bossfight. Spell speed theoretically makes you run OOM faster, and DET's increased HPS isn't really noticeable on burst abilities like table flip or death sentence.

Also, when you are in mostly Ilvl90, or full, you will notice that regardless if you have a DET build or not, your healing numbers are well above whats required for anything. So much so, that i specced out of 30 MND in favor of Piety because it allows me to be more lax with mana and rely on ballad less often, if ever. (Also, 5k+ mana pool OP)

WHM's don't really have enmity issues now that tank aggro has been fixed, so that argument is out of the window.
It's also good to point out that crit has the best scaling in regards to Divine Seal/Fey Illumination/Convalescence. Divine seal+regen has a huge uptime, and from what i remember, my regens can crit for around 1000-1100 health with divineseal+convalesence, With pretty much a DET build, without 30MND from attributes. Take that for whatever you think it's worth.
In regards to crits overhealing: If you are crittng, and those heals are overhealing, odds are very high that increase in spell speed or det is also not doing much for you. Sure, crits pull more aggro than the other two options in this scenario, but enmity is pretty negligible at this point.

At the end of the day, all secondary stats are completely underwhelming for WHM, and none of them effect your playstyle really. If you are relying on crits to proc, saving tanks because you are technically allowed to act 0.2 seconds faster, or because you heal for 30-50 more health, something is wrong, and in those situations, i almost always have popped benediction, causing any of the three to be rather negligible, or completely useless. In my opinion, you should just get whatever ilvl90 you can get your hands on. If you are looking to level another class, I would just start spending mythology on that new class regardless of what stats your ilvl90 whm gear gives as opposed to trying to optimize for a single stat and replace ilvl90 gear that doesn't have the stat you want. Just get whatever you prefer playstyle wise if you are hellbent on customizing your whm's gear.

Differences:
Full crit build: 13% more crit or so, capping you at ~18.85% crit
Full det build: 30 more hp on cure 1, 50 more hp on cure 2 per cast.
Full SS build: ~0.2 seconds faster on your spells, and ~0.15 seconds faster on GCD.

Make your choice, you won't notice a big difference.

Also, if any WHM secondary stat gets buffed to the point where we are supposed to stack one similarly to how SCH stacks crit, IMO it will probably be spell speed if that means anything to you.
One more thing: SS builds let you use the iconic WHM myth robe, where as DET/CRIT lets you use the allagan robe instead. That could be a pretty big significance to alot of people as well. Also, Thyrus clips through WHM hood, which is really annoying.

I just want to throw out that most of these calculators are low, going full Det over other stats is about 5 points per piece of gear, some more like the robe. A full Det build is way more than 30 HP on cure 1 and is more likely 60-70 if not more. I'm not full Det build and I'm already at +65 spell speed build and missing quite a few pieces of gear.

Spell speed is a horrible stat for healers. If you cancel a cast once, be it dodging an AoE or cancelling a heal because the tank's already full HP, then you've just lost every benefit of having a lot of Spell Speed. Oftentimes as a WHM, I sit around and wait for damage to come as I let Divine Seal Regen do most of the healing and wait for MP to come back. Unless you're casting 100% of the time, Spell Speed isn't doing anything productive. And let's be honest - there's no fight in the game that matters where you don't have to move, and you're not healing 100% of the time because you can't heal more than the tank's maximum HP.

@ OP: Anything without Spell Speed is BiS. WHMs prefer Det usually, but I like to have a few Myth accessories just so i crit more than once in a blue moon. Crit/det is pretty interchangeable as a secondary stat.

Three simple rules for gearing WHM:

1.) Find the highest item level available to you for that slot. Higher item level inevitably comes with more MND, which is your most important stat.

2.) If you have two pieces of the same item level choose the one that come with more PIE, more PIE = more MP regeneration during battle.

3.) If you have two pieces of the same item level and same PIE, choose whichever secondary statistic better suits your play style as Critical Hit, Determination, and Spell Speed all give pretty minimal returns.

I'm very curious about spell speed on WHM as well. Fully geared for SPD it looks like you can hit about 590. That gives a good reduction in cast time on most of WHM spells even before buffs that would decrease it more. Seems like a large benefit to WHM mobility. Maybe shave a full second off skills that take 3 seconds or more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I'm very curious about spell speed on WHM as well. Fully geared for SPD it looks like you can hit about 590. That gives a good reduction in cast time on most of WHM spells even before buffs that would decrease it more. Seems like a large benefit to WHM mobility. Maybe shave a full second off skills that take 3 seconds or more.

---

Presence of Mind gives you +400, putting you above 800-900, and only decreases Cure times by less than .4 second. If spell speed scaled as hard as you presume, then it would actually be useful. But you need so much sell speed to make any sort of difference, and at that point you might as well have stacked other stats for an even bigger difference. There's virtually no benefit to WHM mobility, either, unless you always dodge aoes in the last .1 to .2 second of them landing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrmillion

Presence of Mind gives you +400, putting you above 800-900, and only decreases Cure times by less than .4 second. If spell speed scaled as hard as you presume, then it would actually be useful. But you need so much sell speed to make any sort of difference, and at that point you might as well have stacked other stats for an even bigger difference. There's virtually no benefit to WHM mobility, either, unless you always dodge aoes in the last .1 to .2 second of them landing.

---

But doesnt Spell Speed scale better the higher the cast time? @590 it should drop anything in the 3 second range pretty close to the GCD.

Never checked either but does spell speed reduce recast times as well? I know the gains arent great from spell speed but even .2 off the cast time for burst damage seems better than a 3% healing increase from stacking DET.

it does diminish cast and recast times

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Never checked either but does spell speed reduce recast times as well? I know the gains arent great from spell speed but even .2 off the cast time for burst damage seems better than a 3% healing increase from stacking DET.

---

The problem with spell speed is that for it to equal the amount of healing you gain from det, you have to be streaming casts 100% of the time like a Black Mage. Healers don't do that because it's incredibly wasteful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

it does diminish cast and recast times

---

I see that now. I don't usually play with "Display Action Help" so I never paid attention to it.

Looking at the time reduction for the majority of WHM skills + the time delay on casting (since you can move before the cast is done and still have it go off) you could have cast times down to ~ 2 seconds while still being able to move if needed.

You get a huge reduction on the time it takes to cast Raise.

Spell Speed still seems like the best option for burst damage.

SS makes a pretty noticeable difference in fights where you have to move often. I can more or less cast while on the move. I have a mix of DET and SS. No mana issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slark

I personally prefer Crit > Det > SS. Crit may not effect stoneskin, but it does effect regen, which is extremely useful. In my opinion, crit builds are the most noticeable ones. Mainly because both spell speed and det's returns are near worthless in my opinion. Having an extra 13% or more crit is a very big deal when you are spamming cure1, or regen/medica2 is ticking on possibly multiple people at once.

No encounter really requires insane constant HPS for a long enough period where DET can really shine. However, tons of encounters have big spikes of damage where crits come in handy.
Spell speeds bonus's are so small, and they will most likely get completely nullified when server/computer lag is taken into account. Also, a huge part of WHM healing is precasting cures, which when done, will cause spell speed to be 100% useless.

---

How is your equipment setup? This post alone have convinced me to regear my white mage. Thank you in advance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorglath

Conclusions:

The difference in healing is negligible, as a WHM there is no issue with the healing output of our spells. As encounters in end game content seems to trend towards spike damage, getting a tank out of the danger zone is more important than getting an extra 25 HPs restored per cure. The big help here is remembering to use presence of mind as that's when you'll see the biggest difference between the two specs (.118 seconds). Both determination and spell speed take a huge amount to see any change at all, so it really is personally preference as far as which is better. having spell speed (primal accessories)

---

^ This, which is why I prefer speed over output all the way. Tanks rarely get smacked in combination blows so as long as you can cast fast enough to save the tank from dying you will have time to top them off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kako0404

^ This, which is why I prefer speed over output all the way. Tanks rarely get smacked in combination blows so as long as you can cast fast enough to save the tank from dying you will have time to top them off.

---

That is what I was thinking. It's also strange that WHM gear allows you to stack a ton of SS (230) vs 80-90 DET. I didnt compare doing a combination of crit and Det vs SS but it doesnt look like as much as SCH has available to gear for.

Interesting thread as I was thinking about my BiS too.
I like my playstyle to be a bit "personal" and I find out something I'd like to add to the conversation: Crafted Accessiories, HQ obviously :p

Even if the Item Level is 70 you can get a nice base value for most important desirable stat for DoM, few points lower than the counterpart but, keeping in mind the item stat caps, you can get a lot more points adding Materia.

Example:

Astral Choker HQ ILv 70 Vs Ultima Choker ILv 80

Defence 1-1 = 1-1
MND +9 < +11
SpS +9 < +14
Det 0 < +7
INT +9 > 0
Acc +12 > 0
I used Ultima Choker because it looked like the best necklace for my MND>SpS/Det>VIT/PIE build and then.. it's cool!

At a first sight it seems the Ultima is more efficient for a WHM but, keeping in mind the caps of crafted items you can find here, you can add up to five Materia and what is loosing 2 points of Mind, 1 of Determination (+6 Det from Materia) if you can get like +8 VIT, +6 PIE and two other juicy ones?

I didn't test myself all the numbers wrote in the link so I can't say they are 100% right and I'm not saying it's the best solution ever--and it's not cheap at all!- but I think it can be a nice add to a well Considered BiS. Tell what you think :)

I'm a fan of higher Piety pieces for MP regeneration through one Shroud of Saints to the next. Helps minimize any callouts for Mage's Ballad after incidents of death, topping off and stoneskinning while playing HP catchup with everyone to survive the next unavoidable AoE.

I just wish the Omnirod didn't look so dastardly.

I'm trying to sort out my best in slot, I've picked up a lot of spell speed through cleric items since I had the myth to spend while waiting for my FC to be coil ready so I'm trying to work around that to pick other pieces. But here's a great site for all classes that lets you compare stats, it includes options for crafted gear and materia as well. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LHSA

I think WHM BiS is more a matter of opinion because of how our healing works. There are certain times that crit is useless, certain times that ss is useless, and while det is always useful it's very weak per point.

Once you get to an ilvl 90 item the differences are small and situational. Though I've noticed that the allagan accessories have lower PIE for some reason, so that may be something to consider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viviza

I think WHM BiS is more a matter of opinion because of how our healing works. There are certain times that crit is useless, certain times that ss is useless, and while det is always useful it's very weak per point.

---

So much this.... I think what bugs me the most whenever this topic comes up is that people are so quick to jump on the DET is best when asked by new players. That's why when I started to hit end game i was planning on that until I looked at it closer. I really like ss but I'm not going to tell someone who asks me that it's best without telling them that any of the secondary are just as viable.

From a strictly objective viewpoint based on how SE designed the jobs, I have a feeling Spell Speed will be buffed in the near future. If we look at all the secondary stats, they can all benefit both healing jobs in one way or the other. In the end I think stats should enhance the job's specific role.

For example, Crit is the best choice for SCH because of how it affects their mitigation capability. Scholars are proactive healers. Thus, Crit helps them be better proactive healers. It seems SE got this right.
Now on the other hand, WHM are reactive healers. They don't prevent big damage, but they sure can fix it when it does happen. What better stat to complement quick reaction healing than Spell Speed? It seems to be the most logical choice to fit the job's role. The problem is that a SCH makes better use of Crit than WHM makes use of SS (or anything else for that matter).

THIS is why I foresee a buff to SS in the future. It's the only way balance the equation and give each job a secondary stat the befits their roles.
Both jobs get equal use out of Det
Both jobs get equal use out of Pie
SCH gets a decent benefit from stacking Crit
So to be fair, WHM should get a decent benefit from stacking Spell Speed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrmillion

The problem with spell speed is that for it to equal the amount of healing you gain from det, you have to be streaming casts 100% of the time like a Black Mage. Healers don't do that because it's incredibly wasteful.

---

This is a common fallacy in the argument against spell speed. It isn't about HPS or healing throughput. It's about getting off that single vital heal after you tank has taken huge spike damage from an ability, quick enough to keep the next auto attack or ability from killing them.... 3+ stack ADS, double dreadnaught phase, death sentence in turn 5, etc.

A full Det build is about 70 more det than a SS build. It's approx 5 det to 1 mind, and 1 mind is approximately 1.5-2hp per cure 1. So a det build is roughly 35hp more per Cure 1. It's not significant because with or without that 35hp you are almost always casting the exact same number of cures to top your tank off. Aside from that, any overhealing negates benefits from it. If this doesn't make sense, I'd be more than happy to expand on it with some maths.

Crit is not great because it is not consistently reliable and we get no bonus like a Scholar does with adlo. Healing is generally getting heals out quickly after hard bursts, and you shouldn't rely on RNG to be able to do that. Crit also leads to unexpected overhealing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slark

.

---

I like your idea of specing into pie later.. I might try that >:D

honestly, like someone mentioned before there is no exact preference for a BiS, because all of the stats can be useless at any given time. I personally believe there is a BiS that's found somewhere in the middle of all SS and Crit.

From my personal experience with WHM, there is a threshold for SS that you should overcome, as for exact numbers I don't have the entire gear set to state but what it basically feels like is, you have the ability to pop the important heal quick enough. Once you reach that point, you start lowering your SS till, it no longer feels like that and middle-ball that. It feels somewhere in the 460+ range. That's when Crit becomes the more viable stat. I value Crit slightly better then determination but only if you can get you crit over 13% chance which is roughly about 450+ crit. I aimed for a 300 determination, closer to hitting 288 though.