Garuda Extreme mode - no melee allowed. Thx SE.

No melee allowed is now a thing in garuda X. Not sure why but seriously?

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

No melee allowed is now a thing in garuda X. Not sure why but seriously?

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Most groups go 1 melee only, wicked wheel is pretty bad and hard to dodge during tornado phase unless tanks have Suparna and Garuda Lined up perfectly. So make your own group using this strat.

All twin phases:
Just Melee DPS on Chirada
Ranged DPS kill Suparna first then Chirada, every phase.
Then all Burn Garuda.

It's simple really, I understand not wanting 2 Melee dps but NO Melee DPS just means ur bad.

I blame how unfriendly the harder contents are with Melee DD class/Jobs.

Just look at all those Massive Melee Range AoE Heavy Damaging skills these higher difficult bosses spam constantly.

You can't even get close to perform a proper amount of damage before another Massive AoE appears to force you to run away from the boss again.

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

No melee allowed is now a thing in garuda X. Not sure why but seriously?

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It because of Double Whicked Wheel and Tornado Phrase, it make the fight easier with all Ranged class. Tank can Tank Suprana and Garuda at the same time without wasting time for OT to pull Suprana off since Wicked Wheel will kill the DPS. It also a DPS race, if DPS is too low random Double Wicked Wheel will happen and one shot the Tank.

Yeah not really sure what they were thinking in the design of this one.

Whicked Wheel should be one of these moves that splits damage among those who get it by it. This would encourage groups with a good split of melee and ranged DD to be formed for it.

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Originally Posted by Zaiken

It because of Double Whicked Wheel and Tornado Phrase, it make the fight easier with all Ranged class. Tank can Tank Suprana and Garuda at the same time without wasting time for OT to pull Suprana off since Wicked Wheel will kill the DPS. It also a DPS race, if DPS is too low random Double Wicked Wheel will happen and one shot the Tank.

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Cool deal. I do more dmg than brd and on par with blm so your point again? Also wheel is after friction. See friction gtfo. win. Its not a hard fight. Stop trying to make everything easier by saying ranged is superior. Its not.

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

Cool deal. I do more dmg than brd and on par with blm so your point again? Also wheel is after friction. See friction gtfo. win. Its not a hard fight. Stop trying to make everything easier by saying ranged is superior. Its not.

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Oppsiess.....

Because with no melee in your group comp Garuda (Extreme) is arguably easier than Garuda (Hard).

But that's how it is with pugs. Most pugs are generally a lot worse than any static so they build their strategy around the inability of players rather than the opposite.

This happens in all mechanics based engames; because it's easier and people are willing for things to take a bit longer for safety.

I'm glad that I've so far only heard of one endgame encounter that is like this where as in RIFT most endgame dungeons were heavily melee unfriendly (to the point of it actually being suicide on a couple of them).

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Originally Posted by Narcissus

Has obviously never played a Melee class in the current late game content.

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Was that to me? If you mean "current late game content" as in extreme primals then no because the community has regarded ranged to be gods. But yet i still parse higher than bards and on par with blms. hey guys lets take the easy way out instead of learn things and be good at our jobs! brilliant. Thanks T2 enrage strat.

Oh and to be perfectly clear I have got garuda down to 5% multiple times without dying. because I know what to look for and how to play. But for some odd reason the blms keep dying hmmm. Whm try raising them tanks die GG.

Its ok I hear melee is the way to go on titan. Ill just troll titan on my blm repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Yeah not really sure what they were thinking in the design of this one.

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When do they ever give much thought to most content?

SE nerfed the LB building progression on parties to discourage stacking certain kinds of jobs...while simultaneously creating end-game content that is more punishing to melee DPS...and has caused stacking of other jobs.

Sounds legit.

lol to the no melee, I have played as melee in Garuda Ex though I normally go as Bard as it's more geared and usually when we go in we would have 1 or 2 melee as well

These are just groups being made by people who constantly see melee die, which happens to be every melee in every group I've been in. It is easy for melee to die, but it isn't hard to stay alive either.

If you do Chirada first, then the only thing melee DPS has to worry about on tornado phase is ONE WW from Garuda that is very predictable and easy to dodge: Slipstream > downburst (run away) > frontal cone > wicked wheel. You can even run away as soon as you see the frontal slice graphic.

If you do Suprana first, she will WW once, immediately following slipstream. Garuda's pattern is the same as above. You probably have to worry about Chirada's WW if you are too slow, but I haven't done it this way.

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

Was that to me? If you mean "current late game content" as in extreme primals then no because the community has regarded ranged to be gods. But yet i still parse higher than bards and on par with blms. hey guys lets take the easy way out instead of learn things and be good at our jobs! brilliant. Thanks T2 enrage strat.

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Apologies, misread your first post, thought you said you were bard, and this post has absolutely nothing to do with t2, anyways.

Like I've already posted, there are ways around it, you can tackle it strategically. Your a monk you should know this. like dragoon, our dps is pretty dependant on our buffs and CDs, having to step away from the boss, in this case Friction - Downburst - WW. You completely screw up your rotation which inhibits your dps output, on top of that, you dont always pick up Class A Melee DPS in pugs, so wouldnt a group want to just pick up a 4 Ranged DPS for Safety and reliable DPS? ofc they would. No one likes wiping over and over again to something that can be avoided.

Range has their own issues with certain bosses esp when we have to move and interrupt our casting because of it. It does not matter if your a range or a melee, there are always going to be negatives in the fights most of the time. Every fight in the game is suitable for melee or range. It just so happens some of the players are restricting melee because they are afraid the melee won't do their role right and they think the fights easier if all range. For melee to work right the dd needs to change the pecking order of Garuda and the sisters to accommodate the melee into the fight.

It's very doable and restricting jobs should not happen. Mnk and drg can toss the damage around pretty good now.

JP groups use a DRG as a 3rd tank to burn down Chirada.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

Range has their own issues with certain bosses esp when we have to move and interrupt our casting because of it. It does not matter if your a range or a melee, there are always going to be negatives in the fights most of the time. Every fight in the game is suitable for melee or range.

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Idk man, when I switched from Drg to Blm, I just felt like a lazyass.

Probably going to end up with stacking Bard again, mobile DPS.

Problem lies in players skills and not the mechanics, I don't see a decent melee or range DPS would have any problem in all this fights, but pug will always take the easy way and the easiest is stacking range DPS for Garuda ex.

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Originally Posted by Wobble

When do they ever give much thought to most content?

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BC System in general (FFXI), Einherjar (FFXI), Records of Eminence (FFXI), Limbus Progression (FFXI), Monstrosity (FFXI), Salvage design (taking away people's over reliance -FFXI), Original Ifrit Extreme (FFXIV 1.2x), Darnus Fight (FFXIV 1.23), Much of Front Mission Online...etc.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

JP groups use a DRG as a 3rd tank to burn down Chirada.

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Also avoids having to deal with double Wicked Wheel, which is always good.

If your tank is very good you can have her or him grab both Suparna and Garuda while melee stay on Chirada.

But yeah it is very unfair compared to black mage and summoner.

Its perfectly fine for melee if you adjust your strat slightly.

MT grabs Suparna and Garuda while OT grabs Spiny and Chirada - burn Chirada down and then have MT take Spiny and OT take Suparna. Suparna stops doing Wicked Wheel once Chirada has died, so melee can dps Suparna np. MT can start working the Spiny down while Suparna is being DPSd since Garuda is invulnerable anyways.

Never once does a melee see Wicked Wheel with this strat.

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Originally Posted by zdub303

Its perfectly fine for melee if you adjust your strat slightly.

MT grabs Suparna and Garuda while OT grabs Spiny and Chirada - burn Chirada down and then have MT take Spiny and OT take Suparna. Suparna stops doing Wicked Wheel once Chirada has died, so melee can dps Suparna np. MT can start working the Spiny down while Suparna is being DPSd since Garuda is invulnerable anyways.

Never once does a melee see Wicked Wheel with this strat.

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People don't like to adjust, they like to complain.

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Originally Posted by zdub303

Its perfectly fine for melee if you adjust your strat slightly.

MT grabs Suparna and Garuda while OT grabs Spiny and Chirada - burn Chirada down and then have MT take Spiny and OT take Suparna. Suparna stops doing Wicked Wheel once Chirada has died, so melee can dps Suparna np. MT can start working the Spiny down while Suparna is being DPSd since Garuda is invulnerable anyways.

Never once does a melee see Wicked Wheel with this strat.

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Precisely. No issue at all.

Garuda extreme is a poorly designed boss imo. Ranged don't really do anything the entire fight, melee make a single mistake the die, and then there is the spiney plume which can only be dealt with using provoke. Then to top all that off garuda has a ton of health causing more groups to one heal it just to prevent people from passing out from boredom.

So to recap... Tanks make a mistake its a wipe, the melee make a mistake they die, the ranged make a mistake nothing happens, and the healer fall asleep because the fight is boring. Its almost like titan hard mode in reverse.

http://i.imgur.com/YGPVC6z.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Garuda extreme is a poorly designed boss imo. Ranged don't really do anything the entire fight, melee make a single mistake the die, and then there is the spiney plume which can only be dealt with using provoke. Then to top all that off garuda has a ton of health causing more groups to one heal it just to prevent people from passing out from boredom.

So to recap... Tanks make a mistake its a wipe, the melee make a mistake they die, the ranged make a mistake nothing happens, and the healer fall asleep because the fight is boring. Its almost like titan hard mode in reverse.

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Pretty true, def made me lol IRL tho

Melees are perfectly fine in this fight as long as they know how to evade wicked wheel. Our Garuda ex groups always have one melee (and could have more if we had more people who play melee jobs and need the rings).

My Garuda EX farm group uses a DRG, and we have never had problems at all. Melee just needs to be on the ball and not stand there in wicked wheel.

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

Cool deal. I do more dmg than brd and on par with blm so your point again? Also wheel is after friction. See friction gtfo. win. Its not a hard fight. Stop trying to make everything easier by saying ranged is superior. Its not.

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Actually I fight it enough to know that Wicked Wheel do not alway happen right after friction, if DPS is slow it will do it randomly in between, not jump up or after frictions. I'm not saying close range DPS do less damage then Ranged, but most do not want to take the risk of Melee DPS dying, or OT to pull it off Main Tank and kill it fast without Wicked Wheel happening in between. Calm down already.

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Originally Posted by BlackPriest

Cool deal. I do more dmg than brd and on par with blm so your point again? Also wheel is after friction. See friction gtfo. win. Its not a hard fight. Stop trying to make everything easier by saying ranged is superior. Its not.

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Actually, a ranged group is ideal for healing, too. Cure III saves lives!

It is best to do it with your FC as most PU groups will refuse to adapt their play style. They only know one strat that works for them and probably ignore the fact that more optimized strats exist depending on the team composition.

Last night, I was in a PU group where the OT didn't want to pull Suparna after Chirada dies. So as a melee I had to run to suparna/garuda NW position, but the MT wasn't even in a corner so I just had to eat the whicked wheels. This could have been avoided if we killed suparna first while melee stays on Chirada, right?

I have done it both ways. With all ranged, and with 1 or 2 melee. Its definitely slower with melee vs taking all ranged. Also less prone to dps deaths and wipes.

Tornado phase is the issue here with melee, assuming MT takes Garuda and Suparna tanks NW, and OT picks up Chirada and the plume goes SE. Melee follow offtank to burn down Chirada, healers and ranged in one of the adjacent quadrants. With all ranged you can immediately target Suparna as soon as Chirada is dead no need for the OT to even pick her up off the MT. Now then if you have melee you have to wait for the OT to provoke Suparna and she has to waddle herself through tornados often moving slow sometimes stopping to slipstream, for every melee dps you have you are losing dps up time when she is being dragged across the room. On top of that it is easy for melee to die to wicked whirl and have to be very aware when it will come out and run away when it does, more dps loss.

Stacking all ranged basically takes out much of the chance a dps will die because they can just stand in their quadrant and not have to worry about getting hit by anything but friction which is easily dodged. Lets you have almost 100% dps uptime on the adds in turn giving you much more dps time on garuda. With melee there is a lot more waiting for adds getting into position after provokes.

Overall the easy way to do it is stack all ranged which is why people shout for ranged only.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I have done it both ways.With all ranged, and with 1 or 2 melee. Its definitely slower with melee vs taking all ranged. Also less prone to dps deaths and wipes.

Tornado phase is the issue here with melee, assuming MT takes Garuda and Suparna tanks NW, and OT picks up Chirada and the plume goes SE. Melee follow offtank to burn down Chirada, healers and ranged in one of the adjacent quadrants. With all ranged you can immediately target Suparna as soon as Chirada is dead no need for the OT to even pick her up off the MT. Now then if you have melee you have to wait for the OT to provoke Suparna and she has to waddle herself through tornados often moving slow sometimes stopping to slipstream, for every melee dps you have you are losing dps up time when she is being dragged across the room. On top of that it is easy for melee to die to wicked whirl and have to be very aware when it will come out and run away when it does, more dps loss.

Stacking all ranged basically takes out much of the chance a dps will die because they can just stand in their quadrant and not have to worry about getting hit by anything but friction which is easily dodged. Lets you have almost 100% dps uptime on the adds in turn giving you much more dps time on garuda. With melee there is a lot more waiting for adds getting into position after provokes.

Overall the easy way to do it is stack all ranged which is why people shout for ranged only.

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and i care not. There is not a legit reason beyon slacking off to don't bring melee in garuda extreme. Shame the community.

Our comp is:

2x PLD, 2x BRD, 2x BLM, 1x MNK, 1 WHM

and our MNK never has a problem avoiding wicked wheel while still staying with all the other DPS numbers wise, even though he loses greased from time to time.

Like others have said the problem is with the players not the mechanics, if you have an issue with groups not wanting to take melee. Make some friends, you are playing an MMO after all, go be social.

Knowing when it comes is one thing but where do you actually dodge it in the tornado phase when there is no room?
Waiting for the OT to pull suprana off the main tank is not an issue since both melees have teleports which can take you to the other side (shoulder tackle, spineshatter dive, dragonfire dive).

Also suprana definitely still uses WW after chirada is dead, she has used it many times after we downed chirada and i got over to suprana.

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Originally Posted by gadenp

JP groups use a DRG as a 3rd tank to burn down Chirada.

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That sounds really interesting. Where would you tank it in the tornado phase? I am assuming in the NE spot that is normally empty? Can ranged and healers still reach?

Do it on my MNK and never get hit by them unless a tank wants to be dumb and run through me to grab a spiney plume.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

and i care not. There is not a legit reason beyon slacking off to don't bring melee in garuda extreme. Shame the community.

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I am pretty sure adding extra work for the healers, tanks and/or being lower dps would be good reasons not to being melee. I would never enter garuda em as melee if I had a ranged with even half decent gear. Time spent dodging tornadoes and WW while my buffs drop is time I could spend DPSing as ranged.

The better question is why should I add stress to my tanks and healers when I could be ranged and make the entire fight go smoother?

Our monk just shoulder tackle through the tornado, plus having multiple melee lb's in this fight makes it good. It's all the same really, just people asking random people to complete tasks will always take the safest route.