Hey guys. I've mained PLD as long as I've been playing, and I've been pretty happy with it too (and still am).
However, Warriors are both more rare, and look awesome, so I'm thinking of maxing out my warrior alt. However, I'm just wondering how the state of the Warrior is after the patch? Some pros and cons of both classes for those who knows both would be cool aswell. I've read some, but not sure how much they apply after the patch.
How are warriors after 2.1?
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01-02-2014, 03:27 PMPeemjaHow are warriors after 2.1?
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01-02-2014, 04:20 PMMarxam
Apart from using Storm's Path more often and using Inner Beast before big hits, as opposed to after (due to buff) really not much has changed. If you've been a WAR since day 1 like I have its just another day in the land of Eorzea
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01-02-2014, 04:43 PMZoomieThis couldn't be further from the truth. I'll grant you that not much has changed for 4 man content as all of that is easily out geared but for 8 man content starting with Titan HM 2.1 warriors have a tremendous advantage over 2.0 warriors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
IB is a significantly stronger than it was before, vengeance is now a very powerful mitigation tool, and tieing our + healing to defiance rather than wrath stacks was a tremendous buff. -
01-02-2014, 05:06 PMMouldy
I don't think OP was looking for a "how much better are 2.0 wars from 2.1 wars" rather a how viable / useful are 2.1 warriors
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01-02-2014, 07:04 PMGoMagikarp
1. Warriors are monsters in terms of AOE threat generation and can easily snatch it off a paladin, even more so now that we have a wider AOE threat generator: Steel Cyclone --> Overpower spam
2. Warriors are a lot less squishy in WP Speed Runs, vengeance (30% DR) is on a short cool down and (improved) thrill of battle lasts longer and are available for the big pulls. Not to mention Holmgang (unkillable for 6 seconds) for those SHTF moments.
3. Warriors can MT anything, assuming similar gear vs paladin counterpart. (in 2.0 a i70 paladin had better abilities to survive as MT than an
i80+ Warrior)
4. Warriors are still very animated (except Overpower) and flashy with huge axe swings and still look badass no matter what they do.
5. Warriors are easier to heal now that we have a permanent +20% to healing while in defiance and we are able to maintain a 20% DR buff 33% of the time we are in combat.
go try a Warrior, there's a reason its the flavor of the month. -
01-02-2014, 09:17 PMNathan061111
Vengeance makes a big difference. Steel cyclone is great to use in WP. Holmgang has saved my crispy bacon half a dozen times but the biggest difference is the change to wrath stacks. Warrior is a blast play I'd recommend it to anyone and is very useful I'd say. Finally Storm's path reduces enemy damage by 10%, I make sure I keep this up 100% of the time when I'm OT.
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01-02-2014, 09:40 PMabzoluutThen you play with very poor Paladins. Overpower spam? Of course, throw in 8 overpowers. Who needs tp anyways.. So misleading lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoMagikarp
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01-02-2014, 09:56 PMNSquirrel
in 4-man content, no need to spam Overpower. Usually, I make 1 Overpower, 1 Flash, (if you do not feel cumfortable another Overpower )and start cycling between mobs your usual combo. if a have any doubt another overpower later in the fight. Overpower threat generation is so amazing ....
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01-02-2014, 10:05 PMMaelwysSpeaking as a PLD, WARs can indeed rip AoE threat clean off me.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
Then you play with very poor Paladins. Overpower spam? Of course, throw in 8 overpowers. Who needs tp anyways.. So misleading lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoMagikarp
I just end up taking it back ~20 seconds later after they run out of MP/TP and I'm still Flashing and Riot-Blading.
The patch didn't really change anything there.
The really good thing about 2.1 is the across-the-board enmity increases for tanks - a WAR is quite literally the ONLY thing that can rip AoE threat off me now, Double-Flaring BLMs are yesterday's news... :p -
01-02-2014, 10:16 PMFiosha_MaureibaPretty sure he didn't mean Overpower once you're lead in enmity, just until you have a cushion against healers and the DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
Three Defiance Overpowers has the enmity equivalent of a Shield Oath Rage of Halone combo, except Overpower is on multiple targets. Flash does not generate THAT much enmity (e.g. 3 Flashes != a full enmity combo worth).. -
01-02-2014, 10:47 PMNalou
I really have the feeling both classes are even, but differently.
When building enmity on multiple targets, it seems that Flash and Overpower are even. However, War can up Overpower's threat generation with Berserk or Unchained. This is why it gives the impression Warrior have easier time tanking multiple targets (at first sight).
However, Paladin still generates enough enmity to tank a pack, can spam flash for a longer time, and have better cooldowns to handle the burst damage multiple targets will do on a tank.
Paladins have less aggro, but are more defensive on multiple targets... so the best way to play would be to let paladin tank multiple targets, instead of ripping hate off them with warrior.
When building enmity on a single target, it's the opposite. Paladins use the Rage of Halone combo most of the time, and generate enmity on every combo, while warriors have to go through 2 or 3 combos, but only one of these generates good enmity, so they make less enmity. It's gives the impression that Paladin is a better tank on single target (at first sight).
However, Warrior still generates enough enmity to tank single target, and have Inner Beast available more frequently to mitigate most (if not all) huge damage spikes, and can keep Storm's Path up at all times to reduce aoe damage on the whole raid... so the best way would be to let warrior tank single targets, instead of ripping hate off them with paladin.
So, when a class can easily make lots of aggro on a target type, they cannot mitigate as much as the other class would have.
It doesn't makes a significant difference during fights, but it can still ease some fights. -
01-03-2014, 01:12 AMabzoluut
Well, I'd say: try to do three defiance overpowers against an equally geared pld doing flash (he can get mp back so easily). You don't just "snatch it off easily". When you do, 'cause you will, he'll have it back in no time and at that point you don't want to waste any more tp.
Not saying this is the way to do it, just an example of how it would work doing some content (T4 for example). -
01-03-2014, 02:12 AMZeroRains
Haha no paladin can rip threat off of me just with rotation alone. Either need to use provoke or the warrior isn't using butchers block a lot. Best thing with war is when I do primal fates I know at some point I'll become MT. Gotta love War threat, nothing beats it ^>^
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01-03-2014, 02:24 AMwhiskeybravo
I've enjoyed the war 2.1 changes, You can have IB up for most every damage spike. Although, I have not been able to tank Titan HM yet. In all fairness I've only had the opportunity a few times, and still trying to figure out the best rotation for eating Mountain Busters. Seems like there are enough moves to have one thing or another up for MB, just trial and error figuring out the right combo.
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01-03-2014, 02:35 AMMaelwysTank Carbuncle would disagree... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ZeroRains
WAR Single Target Enmity Rotation is the Butcher's Block Combo. If a WAR just spams that, they'll generate more threat than a PLD who is spamming their Rage of Halone Combo.
The problem is that a WAR's combo at endgame is Butchers Block combo (for enmity), along with a Maim > Storm's Path (for enemy damage reduction) and Maim > Storm's Eye (for the slashing damage resistance debuff) and occasionally use Inner Beast, which is also on the GCD. Whereas literally all the PLD has to do is spam the Rage of Halone Combo and pop off-GCD buffs unless they feel the need to inflict Blind, Stun or Pacify.
Equally-geared, a PLD will hold threat over a WAR on Single-targets as long as the WAR is keeping up Storm's Eye and Storm's Path. If the WAR is STR stacked and the PLD is VIT stacked, it will be a lot closer and the WAR may inch ahead. However if the PLD is in Sword Oath, the WAR will be at another (slight) disadvantage.
Honestly, the two are very close currently in terms of performance. As a PLD, I'm happy where WAR is at right now - if I'm in a party with a WAR then I know we'll generally have an easier time than if I was in a party with another PLD :) -
01-03-2014, 03:19 AMZoomieAnd if the WAR wasn't in defiance... How is sword oath even in your thought process when we're talking about threat gen. Threat gen = tanking = use shield/defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
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01-03-2014, 04:10 AMSirTaint
How many fights are tanks even competeing for Aggro? Most of the time MT/OT is organized whether they are swapping hate or holding different mobs.
Oath swapping is part of PLDs job ofcourse a PLD can use Swoard Oath when they don't have hate, to either generate hate or to increase DPS as an off tank. -
01-03-2014, 04:14 AMMaelwysBecause with the patch 2.1, the enmity buff that was applied to Shield Oath was ALSO applied to Sword Oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie
I realise Sword Oath wasn't flagged as such in the patch notes, but this increase has been noticed and demonstrated pretty thoroughly by myself and others.
Prior to the patch, a PLD using the RoH rotation in Sword Oath generated slightly more threat than the same PLD in Shield Oath, and this is STILL the case after the patch. The only difference is with Flash - because Flash has no damage component, Shield Oath is better for generating AoE threat.
I actually had a genuine encounter where this issue cropped up on Monday when clearing Turn 4 - the other PLD was ripping threat off me on the Phase 3 Dreadnaught, despite being slightly lesser-geared and using exactly the same rotation. The difference? I was MTing in Shield Oath, he was DDing in Sword Oath.
The same threat multiplier does NOT appear to be in effect (or at least not to the same degree!) when no Stance buff is active, which would be the case whenever a WAR disables Defiance.
A War naturally generates higher ST damage on a target than a PLD does, but this is primarily due to the Storm's Eye debuff (which WARS inflict, but which also affects PLD's attack damage). If both tanks are focussing on the same target, it's pretty even with equal-gearing. -
01-03-2014, 06:07 AMZoomieAgain I fail to see the relevance of any of this. You were addressing WAR/PLD threat gen and started talking about sword oath. If either tank is competing for aggro then sword oath is completely off the table....Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Second if a PLD is dpsing it seems moronic to spam ROH while in sword given the changes. Its the same as a WAR not in defiance spamming BB. Its just not smart. Use as many RoH as you can but choosing to continue to do so at the risk of aggro is just silly. -
01-03-2014, 06:40 AMBobbinT
Yes, WAR has been given much advantage from patch 2.1, although still far from what we have back in 1.0. WAR could even compete in enmity building over PLD on single target, not to mention that WAR already great for crowd control since beginning.
But... PLD can still quite easily steal back enmity from WAR for single target, and this is where Sword Oath comes into play. I know this is weird especially since no mentions of enmity build on the skill description, but I've been doing this quite alot lately. Just switch to Sword Oath, do couple of enmity combo, then switch Shield Oath back on. This could guarantee that a WAR couldn't steal back enmity from PLD. I've tested this alot when doing Main story's duty roulette, and it works like a charm. lol
Been playing between PLD & WAR, and WAR still great especially for dungeons. Single execute of Overpower alone already have amazing enmity build while comparing with PLD that needs at least Flash & Rage of Halone combo which I think still a bit weaker. One of best way to test this is if there's a MNK in party that knows how to play his/her job. MNK can easily rip off enmity from tank, and this is where WAR still have a slight advantage over PLD for maintaining AOE enmity. Throw in another enmity combo from WAR and most of the time will guarantee enmity in check till mob's demise, while PLD's enmity combo still has chances having enmity stolen by a MNK.
To sum it up: WAR's great for crowd control, but could still lose enmity battle over single target (like bosses) with PLD. PLD's always great for single target enmity check like bosses, but the AOE enmity combo still do quite good albeit not as strong as WAR's. -
01-03-2014, 06:43 AMGiantbaneAnd the alternative for a PLD is... riot spam? They don't have a low threat combo option like WAR does. And even their "DPS stance" (sword oath) now has an increased enmity component (god only knows why).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Almost positive his context for Sword Oath is WAR MT (defiance) vs. PLD OT (sword oath) for threat. In that scenario the WAR may run into some issues, and very likely won't be able to hold threat with just SP->SE->BB. Which is a valid point. -
01-03-2014, 07:43 AMLeironI do not see anytihng mentioned abouts word oath having an increased enmity component to it in the tooltip, nor in any of the patch notes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
Are you sure you are not mistaking the fact that Sowrd Oath Paladin's damage isn't reduced and thus, its threat gen is greater than Shield Oath Paladin?
At least in 2.0 this was the case, 2.1 I don't believe this applies anymore. -
01-03-2014, 08:43 AMGiantbaneI'm going off of what Maelwys says he's experienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
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01-03-2014, 09:44 AMIppikiNo offense, but I find this a joke. I main tank Behemoth every time he spawns as WAR, despite full ilvl90 PLDs with Allagan Blades wailing away. I'm rather infamous on my server for moving/resetting FATE bosses (particularly Milburh from DD), and here's a helpful rotation I developed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbinT
Storm's Path for opener(doesn't matter), one Butcher's Block combo, then Heavy Swing, Bloodbath, Maim, Unchained, Storm's Eye, Berserk, Heavy Swing, Internal Release, then Butcher's Block combos until Berserk/Maim runs off. Flash during pacification, and repeat.
I can crit for over 1k on Butcher's Block, with only ilvl 86 gear and a Bravura Zenith. I've almost accidentally reset Behemoth this way, as 10+ Wild Horns tend to move you around a lot. This is also massive mitigation, as the hp regen from Bloodbath is quite considerable. -
01-03-2014, 10:22 AMZoomieIf you're OTing and cannot spam RoH without pulling aggro... then YES, use Riot blade as often as needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
I guess what I fail to see is why this is even a discussion. If you're doing meaningful content then someone has been assigned MT and has been assigned OT. Meaning who can steal aggro from who is pointless as its the OT's job to NOT steal aggro just like any other dps class. If someone is abusing sword oath to steal aggro in CT or wherever else we're likely to encounter moronic behavior then they're just failing to understand that their epeen is less important than the stability of the fight.
The Op asked how warriors are in 2.1 and this devolved into a "who could steal aggro from whom given some random circumstances". -
01-03-2014, 10:55 AMMaelwysThen you didn't read the post I was originally replying to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Namely:
The point I was making is that it doesn't matter if both tanks are in "Tanking Stance" for a difficult primal Fate boss (when BOTH pull extra enmity and PLD wins solely due to the attack chain mechanics), or if they are both in "DPS Mode" - WAR with defiance off and PLD with Sword Oath on (when PLD wins again, but this time largely due to the extra enmity generation provided by Sword Oath).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroRains
The only times a WAR should pull more ST threat is if they are spamming Butchers Block or the PLD is purposely avoiding using the RoH combo.
Don't get me wrong, if the WAR is better suited to MT something then the PLD can certainly hold back in terms of enmity generation (though sadly the Riot Blade combo drains your TP a lot quicker then the RoH combo does) but the bottom line is that whilst WARs have substantially higher "spike" ST and AoE enmity generation, they have lower "sustained" enmity generation over the course of a standard fight than an equally-geared PLD. For AoE threat, this is because they will run out of TP and MP quickly. For ST threat, this is because of the rotating attack chain mechanics and additional stance enmity I have described above.
To bring the thread back on topic, it is PRECISELY because of these differences in styles that having both tanks in a party is so desirable. WARs make a perfect OT (they can pick up adds securely and quickly) and PLDs make a perfect sustained MT (they can still weather prolonged periods of heavy damage noticably more easily than WARs). Their buffs/debuffs compliment and stack with each other. Their traditional roles as MT and OT even swap occasionally whenever the party encounters something that deals short bursts of heavy spike damage on a predictable timer (Turn 5!) since WAR's New Inner Beast allows it to have a short burst of reliable damage mitigation every ~25 seconds. THAT is the state of WARs in 2.1 - a valuable member of the party that can tank practically anything in the game if it needs to. -
01-03-2014, 04:37 PMLeironOdd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
I've had the opposite scenario.
I've been seeing Paladin in Shield Oath being equal to or greater than that of a Paladin in sword oath during t2.
Wasn't seeing them creep up in terms of agro like they used to.
Is there a way to see the actual enmity numbers? -
01-03-2014, 06:25 PMMaelwysFlash (and to a lesser extent Spirits Within) were used way back to get raw enmity comparisons between two tanks - it's how we figured out something was wrong with Lalafel threat. But if you want to compare threat generation between Oaths it'd probably be better to have two tanks equip equal gear/stats (raw AF and a level one sword is useful) and use the same potency ability (e.g. "Fast Blade") a set number of times to test the raw enmity... and then an enmity-multiplier combo (like Fast Blade-Savage Blade) to test the multipliers. Unfortunately this method will not be as reliable due to random damage variance, so the sample size would probably have to be quite large.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Also, I noticed in testing Cover mechanics that there is a discrepancy sometimes in WHEN you triggered your Oath. If one PLD has Shield Oath up BEFORE going into a new instance, and another PLD puts their Oath up AFTERWARDS then it may also make a difference (sounds stupid I know, but it happens with Cover).
My suspicions are that both Oaths generate roughly the same level of raw threat on each swing and weaponskill, but the more frequent Autoattacks in Sword Oath put it slightly ahead. -
01-03-2014, 07:33 PMMaelwys
Posting THIS and THIS here because it's relevant to the tangent conversation about Sword Oath threat versus Shield Oath/Defiance threat :)
Judging from the conversation in the second thread, there is indeed something odd going on enmity-wise between Sword Oath and Shield Oath renewals after you zone into a new instance (and since the other PLD on my T4 run would have been swapping straight from Shield to Sword Oath for Phase 3, this might have kicked in for him).
I've gotten into the habit recently of disabling and reapplying Shield Oath at the very start of every instance "just in case", but it might be interesting to test going from "Shield > Sword > Shield" mid-instance (both with and without "gaps" between disabling one oath and activating another) and see if there's any variation in threat generation! -
01-03-2014, 07:33 PMProxyTooMuch
Going directly from Shield Oath to Sword Oath is bugged. You keep the mega enmity bonus from Shield Oath and now also deal more damage.
If I forget to first deactivate Shield Oath before using Sword Oath I could Fast Blade spam and still get close to pulling aggro.
Edit: Oops, someone beat me to it. -
01-03-2014, 07:58 PMMaelwysThanks for the confirmation! But I think it's a little more than that actually:Quote:
Originally Posted by ProxyTooMuch
+ If both Paladin A and Paladin B toggle on Shield Oath and then Paladin B goes straight from Shield > Sword Oath, then Paladin B will pull hate.
+ However if Paladin A then switches into Sword Oath (to get the same buff as Paladin B) and then back to Shield Oath, then Paladin A will pull hate.
Certain Tanks have also reported not receiving the +20% Damage Resistance Buff of Shield Oath upon zoning to a new instance.
I think what's happening is that the increased enmity from both stances is stacking with each other somehow (e.g. both Oaths grant separate enmity buffs, and neither is "going away" properly when stance swapping), plus that the stance buffs (-damage/+resistance and enmity increase alike) are not always being reapplied when zoning into a new instance.
That latter bit is important because there are reports from DPS classes that they have occasionally been able to pull hate off a Paladin as if they had no Shield Oath up at all - and whilst a tank being able to pull hate off another tank is mildly annoying, a tank that cannot hold hate over a DPS is a danger to the party.
I've been very, very, very OCD recently about always manually disabling and re-enabling Shield Oath at the start of every instance... now I'm tempted to flick to Sword Oath and back again as well... :p -
01-04-2014, 05:40 AMCoffeemancerI discovered this by accident while testing some enmity numbers and I can personally confirm it. If you hit shield oath and then enable sword oath OR just cancel shield oath, you will keep the 200% enmity until you change classes or change areas. If you start out with neither sword oath nor shield oath, you generate 100% enmity, and if you start out with only sword oath you generate 100% enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Definitely a bug in my opinion. -
01-04-2014, 06:56 AMLeironSorry had 75 characters over the limit so I snipped you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Thats what we did during t2.
My gear is roughly equal to the other Paladin's. (his shield was better and his gloves).
But the enmity generation for him was lesser, he wasn't generating the same amount or coming close to it.
He always dropped further and further away.
Of course judging from the other posts, he hadn't swapped from shield oath to sword oath.