Crafting Must change drastically, But the Current system most remain too.

The current system is too much apart of the code of this game to just rip out altogether, but there is no way to make the current idea of what crafting is in an MMORPG into a challenging video game experience. Let's face it, there is no way crafting the same object 600 times in a row can be fun.
No mini game ever imagined could do that. But we can use the enormous time sink we have cemented into this game to our advantage.

There is some discussion of speeding up the craft Leveling process and making it completely automatic to eliminate the advantage of bots and also to make craft a support job.
But that will have a heavy cost to the game.
Anyone who want to be max in every craft will be by the next expansion. The expansions will never catch up. No one will need anyone else. The economy will die.



But making crafting automatic COULD WORK with some guidelines like;



Only parts of items, (eg. No Finished items, materia placement, ect.) could be made automatically,

the Leveling process is Lengthened to keep people from leveling multiple crafts to quickly

AND This process occurs while the player is LOGGED OFF. (It would be very nice to the "Casual" community if there was some incentive to focus on managing time OUTSIDE of the game. (BTW Bots and Goldsellers already enjoy the benefits to walking away from the computer))

Then Square could focus on overhaul the ONLINE Crafting Experience, Mainly by...

Making FINISHED ITEMS a project that CAN NOT be done by a BOT. Making the experience last 30 minutes or an hour, like a boss fight. (I'm not gonna tell you how to do that part, i don't make games, i just play them!)

Make Leve's into something completely different. Have problem solving, statistics, drafting, anything that challenges peoples mind for an hour or two.

Make recipes that can only made by the best craftsmen.
You could determine craftsmen ranks with Crafting events where a portion of the crafting community has a chance to Win access to elite facilities where the games best gear can be made. Players can only use these facilities for one craft per season so that they must ultimately choose a craft to master.

That's what we want, some challenges, Not just a button to press. Pressing the same button over and over again is what lab pigeon's do! :)

The Crafting System can still be fixed!

Finished items aren't done by bots now. Just the grinding for levels.
If the process stays the way it is, normal players won't have multiple crafts at 50 by expansion. Only cheaters, giving the people who cheat the most the most advantage in a new economy. It's also not true that autolevelling will suddenly make everyone a R50. Materials prices will skyrocket, which they need to anyway. If autolevelling suddenly makes people R50, what does that even say about the system? It says it has garbage materials design and production if it can keep up with a lot of people levelling.

The last 10 levels of BSM is still going to take a hundred thousand nuggets, and the last 10 levels of GSM is still going to take gold, coral, or something else painful.

The crafting system can't be fixed. It is a robot's job still trying to advertise itself to humans.

So you take the people that should be banned and you essentially hand them the keys to the house.

No, i take the house that is being broken into and make keys for everyone.

And then I make a new, much nicer house, one that cant be broken into by bots, and make keys for only the most dedicated Crafters.

Material prices will not sky rocket when lowering the amount of SP needed to level, and even if they did, only to the point where it forced people to bot gathering jobs and demand will cease to exist, or at least return to current levels.

I agree that the current design is garbage.

The crafting system can be fixed, and it must be fixed if the game is going to survive.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Finished items aren't done by bots now. Just the grinding for levels.
If the process stays the way it is, normal players won't have multiple crafts at 50 by expansion. Only cheaters, giving the people who cheat the most the most advantage in a new economy. It's also not true that autolevelling will suddenly make everyone a R50. Materials prices will skyrocket, which they need to anyway. If autolevelling suddenly makes people R50, what does that even say about the system? It says it has garbage materials design and production if it can keep up with a lot of people levelling.

The last 10 levels of BSM is still going to take a hundred thousand nuggets, and the last 10 levels of GSM is still going to take gold, coral, or something else painful.

The crafting system can't be fixed. It is a robot's job still trying to advertise itself to humans.

So you take the people that should be banned and you essentially hand them the keys to the house.

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did you just proclaim yourself a bot cuz you almost have 2 50 crafts?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

did you just proclaim yourself a bot cuz you almost have 2 50 crafts?

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No more than you did by having no real idea what the HQ rate on a finished item is 'cause bots don't do those.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

No more than you did by having no real idea what the HQ rate on a finished item is 'cause bots don't do those.

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i dont really make gear unless people ask me to
and i dont even try to get hq mats


but im going off the thousand needles i made and lets just say its NO WHERE near 30% even for a +1 so obviously i am not mistaken


now after all the touchups maybe it equals out to 30% but its not 30% "per attempt" or "per touchup" like you claim

I've tried two thousand needles.
Result 1: Thousand needle+2
Result 2: Thousand needle+3.

I assume you're crafting correctly as a real crafter, not a mats spammer trying to extrapolate it to gear that you aren't proficient at making. Odds of HQ'ing something at that quality is 30%, assuming you are actually doing what you're supposed to be.

If I'm incorrect in assuming you craft correctly, then I'll change my numbers to fit your nitpickery.
or rather, I'll just have you do it for me since nothing I said actually changes.

You probably just spammed needles at 24-30 quality and then hit enter, and the odds of +1 at that quality is about 1 in 30.

You know...the same as my silver and electrum ring HQ rate on the spam.

I find it all too expected that a crafter with so many levels so grossly focusses on spamming needles and the result thereof to define their existance.

I don't spam needles for 17 quality for a living, and that doesn't define blacksmithing.
You can either grind spam electrum rings and have a 1 in 30 chance of HQ, or you can take the time to maximize your touchups and quality ratios and increase that to about 1 in 8.

your choice. HQ or SP per hour. You choose SP per hour. That is why your HQ rates are so low.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I've tried two thousand needles.
Result 1: Thousand needle+2
Result 2: Thousand needle+3.

I assume you're crafting correctly as a real crafter, not a mats spammer trying to extrapolate it to gear that you aren't proficient at making. Odds of HQ'ing something at that quality is 30%, assuming you are actually doing what you're supposed to be.

If I'm incorrect in assuming you craft correctly, then I'll change my numbers to fit your nitpickery.
or rather, I'll just have you do it for me since nothing I said actually changes.

You probably just spammed needles at 24-30 quality and then hit enter, and the odds of +1 at that quality is about 1 in 30.

You know...the same as my silver and electrum ring HQ rate on the spam.

I find it all too expected that a crafter with so many levels so grossly focusses on spamming needles and the result thereof to define their existance.

I don't spam needles for 17 quality for a living, and that doesn't define blacksmithing.
You can either grind spam electrum rings and have a 1 in 30 chance of HQ, or you can take the time to maximize your touchups and quality ratios and increase that to about 1 in 8.

your choice. HQ or SP per hour. You choose SP per hour. That is why your HQ rates are so low.

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i spammed them at 20-30 quality?
screw that i used +3 needles to try and make my +3 tool
most i got in over 10 needles was a +1

you obviously are about as clueless a person as i have ever met on here, stop acting like your an expert.
you hate crafting, you hate crafters, so why dont you stop talking to us about crafting
go back to fighting and leave crafting for people who care about it

If you went 10 +3 needles...what were they I hope they were hedgemole needles because you shouldn't be given thousand needles...without a +1...well
A. Sucks.
B. Uh hedgemole needle, why are you wasting your time?
C. pretty much defies the odds.

I like crafters. I don't like fake ones.
I'm a REAL crafter. I make WEAPONS. I make ARMOR. I make TOOLS.

Because that's the POINT.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

If you went 10 +3 needles...what were they I hope they were hedgemole needles because you shouldn't be given thousand needles...without a +1...well
A. Sucks.
B. Uh hedgemole needle, why are you wasting your time?
C. pretty much defies the odds.

I like crafters. I don't like fake ones.
I'm a REAL crafter. I make WEAPONS. I make ARMOR. I make TOOLS.

Because that's the POINT.

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its like talking to a brick wall who doesnt even read what you wrote past what they want to see

Stop using my thread to bicker.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

its like talking to a brick wall who doesnt even read what you wrote past what they want to see

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Whoever gave you ten thousand needle+3s should be tried for war crimes. What level is your goldsmith?

The crafting system's GOT to change if this is going on. By all means, take a torch to it.

I agree that crafting needs to change, its boring as all hell. The boredom and mindlessness of the grind is what i believe drives so many people to bot it.

Saying people that have multiple crafts at 50 are all bots is generalizing. In a couple more days i'll fall into that category and really don't appreciate your witch hunt mentality. I'm not sure why you're so angry at everyone but it's really getting old. Agreed with a previous poster, you really seem to hate crafting and crafters (why this is i have no idea) , and tossing out accusations at everyone that has more than one r50 craft skill is basically being a Hater.

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Originally Posted by twinkles

and tossing out accusations at everyone that has more than one r50 craft skill is basically being a Hater.

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If you disagree with him you're either "dumb," or a "bot." Period.

Pere. Give me the data that gave you your 30% HQ rate conclusion. Mind you, synthing two, TWO (lollll), things doesn't prove anything. I made 2 cav chainmails today. One was +2 with 110 quality and 2 touch ups. The other was +1 with 167 quality and 5 touch ups. So does that mean that higher quality means a lower HQ rate and tier!? No. It means I need more samples.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

If you disagree with him you're either "dumb," or a "bot." Period.

Pere. Give me the data that gave you your 30% HQ rate conclusion. Mind you, synthing two, TWO (lollll), things doesn't prove anything. I made 2 cav chainmails today. One was +2 with 110 quality and 2 touch ups. The other was +1 with 167 quality and 5 touch ups. So does that mean that higher quality means a lower HQ rate and tier!? No. It means I need more samples.

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lets not forget the post he made earlier this week too

everyone who bots needs to be banned for cheating
everyone who doesnt needs to be banned for not having a life

Anyhow back on topic. Agreed, to draw any sort of valid conclusions pertaining to HQ rates i've found that you need to do large data sets, i'm talking hundreds. Due to the nature of RNG clustering you (the crafter) may go 30 straight nq, then 5 hq's , then more nq's, etc etc.

This is an interesting chart. I can't read the context of it, but i find it jives with my own HQ rates (in 100-200 range) and is a fairly large data set.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=164505

There's already data there that's in conflict with data collected during other tests as well though. Like the comment below it states, we'd need a translation to understand how the test was done, for what purpose, what variables were accounted for, etc.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

There's already data there that's in conflict with data collected during other tests as well though. Like the comment below it states, we'd need a translation to understand how the test was done, for what purpose, what variables were accounted for, etc.

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Yes....that would be my comment :D

But this is the only data I have actually seen posted. Do you have other links where people have posted anything regarding test results or parsed data?

I ran a bunch of tests posted in a Synth guide, look under older topics started by me( think it is called synth/craft guide part2- link is in there). All controllable variables were noted, and all facets of the test duplicated for very useable results.

You want the best HQ rates get to the bare minimum quality tier with the quality of mats you have and save the rest for touch ups (For me I stop at 70-100 for +1, 150-170 +2, and 240-270 for +3). NOTHING is guaranteed, all you can do is increase the amount of chances you have to hq with a touch up.

Stock up on stuffed cabbage and control gear and pop Harmonize near the end. Higher level finished items aren't about spamming bold, they're about getting the best quality mats and getting as much control and durability as possible to touch up at the end.

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Originally Posted by twinkles

I agree that crafting needs to change, its boring as all hell. The boredom and mindlessness of the grind is what i believe drives so many people to bot it.

Saying people that have multiple crafts at 50 are all bots is generalizing. In a couple more days i'll fall into that category and really don't appreciate your witch hunt mentality. I'm not sure why you're so angry at everyone but it's really getting old. Agreed with a previous poster, you really seem to hate crafting and crafters (why this is i have no idea) , and tossing out accusations at everyone that has more than one r50 craft skill is basically being a Hater.

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I don't like the traits that Darwin has selected in this system, so natrually over time people with those traits have started to accumulate that I don't like. I don't hate crafters. This...isn't what a crafter is supposed to be. I hate what crafters have been selected to be, which is mindless enter spammers who petition for a ****ty game just to keep on top of it.

I hate the kind of player who has spent 210 hours hitting the enter button and likes it that way because they effectively have no human willing to put up with this bull **** so they get free reign.

Bad selection selects bad players. They make videogamers look bad and are our lowest-caliber demographic.

If that's you, I'm sorry. You're not worth making a bad game just to appease. Darwin needs to pick his crafters a little better than this, because he's picked mindless drones and robots to lead. Fail.

Really not sure who your attacking more, SE for making the system were forced to use, or the crafters (who it seems are damned if we do and damned if we don't) for using it. If I'm to understand what you're saying, its the players fault for using the system in place to reach a rank 50 craft. Believe it of not I hate the grind to 50, even as i grind my 2nd and eventually my third, but that is the system in place. The reason i grind these bitter mind numbing crafts is so that i can do what i enjoy, which is hqing gear for me and my LS mates. I actually enjoy crafting (what crafting really is-making stuff that's useful), nothing makes my day more then some peep coming up handing me the mats and me being able to raise my hammer up in exclamation of HQ.

I haven't met a crafter yet that enjoys the grind at all period, news flash we all hate the grind to 50. How does that make us bad players? And just for the record i don't just enter spam when i grind craft, using abilities like Hands of the Gods/Perfection etc. help a lot.

I fault both.
I fault lawmakers for making Arizona immigration law.
And I fault people who concentrated enough to make that law popular.

There are problem developmental features, and problem players. Problem players concentrate around problem development.

I fault the crafting system, and I fault the kinds of players who take advantage of and like that faulty crafting system because of their overal mentality.

Crafting has selected a certain quality in crafters who survived the weedout, and that's a quality I find fault in. That kind of player always existed. They just didn't always have faulty systems that concentrate them into one group with a voice and solidarity.

It's like a furry convention up in here.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

There are problem developmental features, and problem players. Problem players concentrate around problem development.

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I agree with this.

The only thing you can change is the code, not people. As soon as people started buying Items over the web, way way back there in the Evercrack days, they opened pandora's box. Now anything that can be run by a bot will be.

We can either ignore botters and just enjoy the game OR even the playing field. There simply should not be a part of an MMO that can be botted.

You won't be able to bot through the new end game instances, Thats good code. We need the crafting professions to move in that direction.

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Originally Posted by Celtodeno

The only thing you can change is the code, not people. As soon as people started buying Items over the web, way way back there in the Evercrack days, they opened pandora's box. Now anything that can be run by a bot will be.

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Or give real players bots and design monotonous tasks to be done by automated processes that players wield if you can't eliminate monotonous "gameplay." Some things are too hard to raise to human standards in MMOs. For those, humans should be given automations instead of continuing to let the sub-humans dominate that game content.

That it exactly what i am saying in my OP.
Even the playing field against botters and link it to the time sink aspect that every MMO must have. Then change the active player experience to something that can not be botted.