The problem with allowing Turn 2 Rage strat

SE I sincerely request you adjust Turn 2 to force players to actually work through the mechanics of this fight. I don't know if during development this strategy was ever used, devised or tested. I also don't care that this strategy is in no way an exploit, just an alternate way of doing this fight. The strategy of pushing ADS into his enrage to "easily" kill him while ignoring all of his major mechanics is a bad thing for the community. Here are several reasons why:
-removes the opportunity for groups to learn and progress through this particular fight
-for those not yet geared enough to complete turn 1, many are clearing this once a week for easy loot.
-by not adjusting this dungeon it sends a message to the community that it's ok to use whatever means necessary to gather loot, the fight isn't what's important.
-perhaps the larges blow against the community is that this fight uses a modified group composition of either 2 heals 5dps 1 tank or 3 healers 4dps 1 tanks. For every 7 people that clear this fight that's only 1 tank. Many static or free company groups will have the resources to do this with the same 8 people however for pick up groups this is not the case. It becomes an issue when those looking to complete Turn 4 are met with a shortage of tank, and an abundance of healers. It's not uncommon to see 2-4 groups shouting for 1-2 tanks to start a turn 4.
The current setup for T2 is hurting the community and creating a job imbalance, for this reason I sincerely hope the developers will look into adjusting the enrage mechanic of this fight.

Whine thread

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

-perhaps the larges blow against the community is that this fight uses a modified group composition of either 2 heals 5dps 1 tank or 3 healers 4dps 1 tanks. For every 7 people that clear this fight that's only 1 tank. Many static or free company groups will have the resources to do this with the same 8 people however for pick up groups this is not the case. It becomes an issue when those looking to complete Turn 4 are met with a shortage of tank, and an abundance of healers. It's not uncommon to see 2-4 groups shouting for 1-2 tanks to start a turn 4.
The current setup for T2 is hurting the community and creating a job imbalance, for this reason I sincerely hope the developers will look into adjusting the enrage mechanic of this fight.

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You might as well say the same thing about Titan Hard. When's the last time you saw a preformed party going in with 2/2/4?

They might have what it takes to beat Turn 2 using this cheap method, but Turn 3 will certainly stop them in their tracks..

@ Viridiana Titan Hard can be done more than once a week and therefore does not lock people from doing it multiple times. I do have a static group I run coil with and we have cleared it long before rage strat. During the holidays they can't all make it and we find ourselves puging tanks for T4. I also know many other players that pug because they do shift work. The shortage of tanks for T4 has become much more noticeable since rage strat became a thing.

Honestly, I don't understand how people think it's okay to do this. Nor do I see the point, because ADS is abysmally easy to do the normal way.

Bottom line, you are literally taking the mechanics of a boss fight and throwing them away entirely. The fight was designed with mechanics for a reason. You are supposed to follow them. This strategy is literally an exploit. It's abusing in-game mechanics to accomplish something outside of what is intended. It's in the same boat as when people used to shut off all of Twintania's abilities.

Regardless of the fact that SE hasn't said or done anything yet, I guarantee they will.

I honestly don't see the point in this "glitch"/"exploit"/whatever anyone wants to call it. This boss is extremely easy. As long as people know how to deal with Rot you pretty much shouldn't have any problems.

I watched a video of someone doing this run. They managed to get the boss to 1 charge left at around 77:30 left on the clock. They finished the fight around 74:30. That means it took them over 15 minutes to finish this fight... They appeared to have sat at the beginning for about a minute and a half, so let's say they took 13.5 minutes to complete this.

They ended up waiting outside ADS for about 2-3 minutes until the "Charge complete in... 1 click" message popped up.

The groups I've ran this with usually reach him at about 6-7 clicks and I've never encountered the rage mode... We barely even had any ilvl90 except weapons. The only reason this thing would be useful is if you were undergeared but if you managed to beat T1 you were obviously geared enough to take on T2 as it's so much easier than T1.

I honestly wouldn't blink an eye if they changed this, or if they didn't change it. However, when I heard about the Enrage timer I assumed it was a guaranteed wipe, which makes so much more sense. It's timed for a reason, why give people a chance to pass it if they didn't finish quick enough?

I'm sure they'll change it, though. I don't think they want their end-game content (which I'm assuming they put the most time into since the only fights with interesting mechanics before level 50 are Qarn and Aurum Vale) being trivialized. Then again, they seem to be focusing on PvP right now, so... who really knows. You probably shouldn't think about it, though. The only reason this should bother you is if you can't find a group doing it normally.

Please also make it so cannons in Castrum Medium cannot be used on mobs that originate too far away from the cannons! This dungeon is really easy, and I dont know why people need to use this bug/exploit.
Here are several reasons why:
-removes the opportunity for groups to learn and progress through this particular fight
-for those not yet geared enough to complete Castrum Medium, many are clearing this to get into Praetorium and eventually start farming Myth tomes.
-by not adjusting this dungeon it sends a message to the community that it's ok to use whatever means necessary to gather loot, the fight isn't what's important.

Please do not let anyone play in a way that is different to the way I think that they should play. Please ensure that there is only one way to complete an instance (my way), and make sure there are heavy penalties for anyone that attempts to deviate from my way of thinking. For the love of god and all that is holy, DO NOT let people think outside the box. If this is allowed to continue, then it's not just the future of the game that is in jeopardy, but our children's, and our children's children.

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Originally Posted by Sax

Please do not let anyone play in a way that is different to the way I think that they should play. Please ensure that there is only one way to complete an instance (my way), and make sure there are heavy penalties for anyone that attempts to deviate from my way of thinking. For the love of god and all that is holy, DO NOT let people think outside the box. If this is allowed to continue, then it's not just the future of the game that is in jeopardy, but our children's, and our children's children.

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lol, ikr. Anyone who has ever thought of an easier way to do something should be shot dead where they stand! Harder is always better! harder means only the die-hards will ever win. casual gamers should never get anywhere in any mmo. they are just a leeche on the system! FIGHT THE POWER! -end sarcasm. i lol at this thread. So you are saying that people should not use any other mechanic other than the one that you think is right? get a grip dude.

If people want to take longer for a guaranteed win go for it. If you want to finish it normal in 4-5 mins then do it that way. Who cares?

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Originally Posted by Ruri

Who cares?

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Well, the OP aparently thinks it is a big deal.
And there seem to be a couple that think the same as him.

I guess they are in that fortunate position where they don't have to worry about what's actually important.

They are just mad because they did it the hard way, and now people have found an easier way.

Bitter queens.

I heard turn 2 was hard and a exploit was needed to kill it.

Well, apparently you guys read bullet point 3 and ignored 1, 2, and 4. There are worse consequences to allowing this method than "scrubs get more easy gear". And that is that it unbalances the jobs looking for T4 groups.

You seem to be forgetting that a majority of the FFXIV community thought that sleeping Conflags on Twintania was an intended mechanic.

Honestly, the average skill level of players on FFXIV is extremely low compared to other MMOs (particularly World of Warcraft). I don't know why this is, but as a result, they're going to lobby around any sort of exploit that makes encounters manageable for their lack of skills/reaction speed.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

Honestly, the average skill level of players on FFXIV is extremely low compared to other MMOs (particularly World of Warcraft).

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Not true in the slightest. WoW has plenty of bad players and they have their fair share of people who'll exploit anything they can find.

The difference is that they have 12 million people (or they did, I know know anymore) compared to our 600 thousand people. If, maybe, 1% of players from each game were good players we would have 6 thousand good players and WoW would have 120 thousand good players. You're obviously going to see more good players in WoW than you would in FFXIV simply because they have more players.

The majority of exploit abusers are just impatient people who can't be bothered taking 20 minutes to do a dungeon, so abuse exploits so it takes 15 minutes instead. The MMO space is an extremely competitive one. We race to get the best gear and highest levels in order to not fall behind, it just so happens that the majority of MMO players grew up believing you couldn't complete GTA without the Health cheat, so they're too accustomed to cheating to get what they want.

Not to mention WoW's combat is so simple in comparison to FFXIV. You just stand there doing nothing with little space for error the majority of the time compared to something like Titan.

Shall we also start Q_Q ing about locking out mobs in WP? Obviously not working as intended.

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Originally Posted by SanjuroXI

Whine thread

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Conjurer is upset he has to lot against 2 other mages, basically.

The funny thing is you can do this quite comfortably with 2 decent healers + bard.

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Regardless of the fact that SE hasn't said or done anything yet, I guarantee they will.

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They have, and they said they won't be. It's officially not an exploit.

fck that. as far as i see it someone found a smart way to deal with it, without exploiting anything or hacking. just letting you know exploit is abusing a bug, and the enrage is not a bug. Some ppl just feel entitled, and prolly jelly that some1 found a smarter way to down turn 2 than how they've been doing it. definitely seems like the op is pulling reasons out of his ass just to make his argument sound remotely valid >_>"

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Originally Posted by blowfin

They have, and they said they won't be. It's officially not an exploit.

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Do you have a source?

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

There are worse consequences to allowing this method than "scrubs get more easy gear". And that is that it unbalances the jobs looking for T4 groups.

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You're barking up the wrong tree. You can thank people selling titan/relic wins. The people selling coil and who will sell Ex primals.

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Originally Posted by LenZelpher

fck that. as far as i see it someone found a smart way to deal with it, without exploiting anything or hacking. just letting you know exploit is abusing a bug, and the enrage is not a bug. Some ppl just feel entitled, and prolly jelly that some1 found a smarter way to down turn 2 than how they've been doing it. definitely seems like the op is pulling reasons out of his ass just to make his argument sound remotely valid >_>"

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So, why do you think they wasted time implementing those Turn 2 mechanics, if the entire encounter can be trivialized into a tank and spank?

Dev straight up said WP was working as intended. not much you can do to argue about that. also it's not on a weekly lockout so it's not unbalancing anything if people do lockout mobs. The problem with T2 isn't what it does to T2, it's how it destroys pugging T4.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

Dev straight up said WP was working as intended. not much you can do to argue about that. also it's not on a weekly lockout so it's not unbalancing anything if people do lockout mobs. The problem with T2 isn't what it does to T2, it's how it destroys pugging T4.

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I really fail to see how it destroys pugging T4. There's no reason a tank can't do T4 on any given week. Unless you're trying to argue that they need the gear from there, but even that would be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

So, why do you think they wasted time implementing those Turn 2 mechanics, if the entire encounter can be trivialized into a tank and spank?

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to make those certain ppl that like to do everything hard and stroke their e-penis's about reaction times and "skills" feel good about themselves.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I really fail to see how it destroys pugging T4. There's no reason a tank can't do T4 on any given week. Unless you're trying to argue that they need the gear from there, but even that would be wrong.

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I agree here, please explain how rage moding T2 destroys T4 pugs.
Because last I checked anyone that has coil unlocked can, at any time, tag along on any turn without any previous clears, where the only consequence is that you are being locked out of the earlier turns for the remainder of the week.

For now, the only "dire consequence" I see is that people are getting some Turn 2 drops. The humanity!
[Insert a highly exaggerated rant on how the picture of my prefect world is destroyed and my dreams are being smashed.]

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Originally Posted by Yenn

So, why do you think they wasted time implementing those Turn 2 mechanics, if the entire encounter can be trivialized into a tank and spank?

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I don't have that answer to that and I still expect it to be fixed.
It's just a question of when.

I'm curious on where everyone here sits with burning down Caduceus before the stacks become a problem, since by the logic that's being passed around here; you're technically bypassing a mechanic there too.

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Originally Posted by Ashira

I'm curious on where everyone here sits with burning down Caduceus before the stacks become a problem, since by the logic that's being passed around here; you're technically bypassing a mechanic there too.

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Or killing Psychoflayer before he can summon all his golems, or killing Demon Wall before bees spawn, or ignoring catastrophe on Anatsabooga. . .

But, no, the three I listed can't possibly be exploits! After all, that's only 4-man content.

To explain the T4 problem most tanks don't want to lock themselves out of T2 until they have cleared it for the week. So if 10 groups clear using the enrage strategy, 5 double heal, 5 triple heal then you would have 25 healers, 10 tanks, 45 dps that are then looking for a turn 4 group. To form those into T4 groups you could make 5 groups of 2 tanks, 2 heals, 4 dps. That leaves 15 healers and 25 dps wanting to do T4, but left with no tanks that have cleared T2. So they can either a) hope some of those players have a tanking off spec, b) try to convince some tanks to skip T2, c) hope they are part of players that actually get groups. For anyone that consistently Pugs T4 there are now far more groups forming for T4 then there are tanks wiling to do the content. On some nights on my server I see as many as 6 groups in party finder will full DPS, full heals and no tanks. So more than anything this is why I hope they do something to adjust the fight to require 2 tanks, no matter what strategy is used to beat it.

As others have already mentioned, Turn 2 'Normal method' isn't that tough of a fight, it just needs a good silence rotation and a little dodging.

But if you want to run it in PUGs, you could always level a Healer.

Most PLDs will already have a level 34 CNJ for "Stoneskin" anyway.
It doesn't take much to get that to a 50 WHM (only need ARC to 15 since 'Eye for an Eye' is useless in T2. Heck, you could even do without "Swiftcast" from THM)
Fit it with Darklight (you'll likely have plenty of phil to spare from all the new CT runs)
Swap to it for Turn 2. Problem solved.

Turn 2 Rage strat doesn't need much in the way of Healer gear, as long as you have three Healers with enough HP not to get one-shot plus one Bard, it's pretty cake. (with Full DL plus cheap food you'll be sitting at around 4k HP, maybe slightly less if you're using a Primal weapon instead of a Relic. Anything over 3.5k HP is plenty for the 0-click strategy)

Should you need to level a healer to pass certain content? No.
But then you don't need to level a healer to pass that content, you just need to level a healer to make yourself a little bit more attractive to the PUG groups which are using a certain FoTM strategy. Welcome to MMORPG supply-and-demand :)

This guy probably haven't heard the term "work smarter not harder." I don't see the problem here. If you beating it the hard way then kudos to you, keep doing it. You making it seems that there is only one solution to everything, apparently the world is round there are more ppl use their brain better than you.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

So if 10 groups clear using the enrage strategy, 5 double heal, 5 triple heal then you would have 25 healers, 10 tanks, 45 dps that are then looking for a turn 4 group.

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There are at least 4 group compositions that you just described, yet you only considered 2 of them for the rest of your post.

1: T T H H D D D D (normal composition)
2: T T H H H D D D (least likely)
3: T H H H D D D D (common enrage composition)
4: T H H D D D D D (other common composition)

The thing is, if you're double healing anyway, it doesn't much matter what the rest of your composition is. This is just like the Titan fight. You only need one tank, you only need 2 healers, and you only need 4 DD. The last slot is a wildcard. Seriously, #3 and #4 are exactly what you usually find in Titan HM, yet I don't see you complaining that it gates access to relics and to Coil, even though Titan HM actually directly blocks BC access.

And of course, none of this is getting to the heart of the matter -- why aren't these tanks just starting their own enrage groups? Not like there aren't enough heals and dps to get them through it. . .

Again, it all comes down to choices. Why are you complaining about pugging and how you do turn 2? You do realize you can do FC run and you can choose to do it the normal way or the easy way regardless of how it works out in FC run. A lot of people have alt jobs and would gladly switch to a particular role needed to complete something as long as they have a fair shot at the loot of their main job.

So, stop whining about something when you have a choice. Stop worrying about the "lack" of tank. There's already a severe lack of tanks in the game. Have you been watching the random roulette where it's tank bonus practically 24/7? Makes no difference for Coil runs as there will still be lack of tanks. So, do FC runs and do the run however you want, you have a choice.

I can't seem to follow the logic here. SE is not supporting PUGs in coil, hence it not being in the DF, but you want SE to kill a method of clearing so you can have more tanks for PUGs. Please correct me if I'm wrong here too but doesn't turn 2 only drop the fending ring that tanks should even care about? My FC has tried a ton of ways from the normal kill, killing rot boss and trying that, enrage, more than 3 bosses, different paths. Enrage works well for us because we can bring different people who are newer 50's to help boost their gear, morale, fun, participation, etc.. Take it away, we still clear it but you are just going to hurt some of my guys that did nothing wrong but start the game later or don't have the time to play as much.

Oh and by the way, our main group changes a smn to sch and a war to mnk after cad to kill enrage ADS so nobody gets cheated out of participation.

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Originally Posted by Ricon

Please correct me if I'm wrong here too but doesn't turn 2 only drop the fending ring that tanks should even care about?

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Allagan Ring of Fending (BIS)
Allagan Earrings of Fending (BIS)
Allagan Plate Belt (BIS)
Heavy Allagan Cuisses (Legs, Not BIS unless you're going for a DPS setup)

:(

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

Allagan Ring of Fending (BIS)
Allagan Earrings of Fending (BIS)
Allagan Plate Belt (BIS)
Heavy Allagan Cuisses (Legs, Not BIS unless you're going for a DPS setup)

:(

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Thank you! I think most of the post stands but I do thank you for the correction, that being said the tanks should be trying to run this for those slots.

Honestly, I think using the enrage is pretty silly, but I don't really care if it's removed or not. At the end of the day, my coil group gets to ADS with 6-8 ticks and engages right there, causing us to down it WAY faster than a pug (I'm going to also say that we down the actual fight far faster than people who adopt this strategy as well). Although it is slightly disappointing to see people trivialize an entire fight that my static had to wipe a few times to understand and coordinate, it doesn't really matter to me. You cannot trivialize the mechanics of every single boss. Turn 2 is made to tone players into a coordinated state by incorporating rot/tank swap/healer focusing/silence rotations/dodge AOE because turn 1 is mostly a gear check if anything in my opinion. Eventually, you will have to learn and get good. Applying this strategy is only delaying the inevitable for those who choose to down it this way. At the end of the day, me and my friends became much better at FFXIV by developing our own strategy and getting tuned to this games flow, while people who (god forbid) skip turn 1 and down turn2 this way have no clue what they're doing. Meanwhile, my group downs this encounter far faster, and has t5 on farm because we know how to play.

I don't really care if people are walking around in Allagan they don't deserve, hell, me and my friends made quite a pretty penny selling Titan HM runs for 200k+ a pop a few months ago. Why do I not care? Because I am just as geared, if not more so, except I will always get taken over them because I am actually a good player, which matters far more than a few pieces of gear. At the end of the day, in my opinion, people who run it this way are only hurting themselves. FFXIV boss fights, to me, so far have been incredibly easy and rather lax in the commandment of player skills. Turn 2, depending on what path you take, is the most involved and chaotic fight (from my perspective as a healer) in all of coil, with the exception of Twister phase, which is around the same difficulty as Turn 2 in my opinion, but less forgiving. However, I also DPS dreadknights which adds to my list of things to do during twister phase. Nonetheless, It's good to get practice when it's hard to come by.

I don't really see the point in doing raids if you trivialize the fight into a tank and spank. The joy of raiding to me is compromised of three things: 1) Having fun with friends 2) Getting to check out the amazing artwork and hard work put into the dungeons aesthetics 3) Engaging unique, fun, and challenging boss fights, and also overcoming them. If you pug 7 other people and you resort to strategies like this, raiding becomes nothing more than another monotone and boring weekly kill quota quest, similar to boring MMO dailies. Why even play? Using strategies like this on literally near-impossible bosses (pre-nerf twin), while going for world firsts is an entirely different situation. People are using those strategies to become world/server firsts, or because they have no other option. T2 enrage strategy is executed purely out of laziness by people who most likely overgear the encounter to begin with. Although the mechanics may be similar, the reasoning behind the execution could not be more opposite. They should not be lumped together in my opinion.

I don't see how people can argue that haters of this strategy are "jealous that someone found a smarter way to play". You didn't, what you found was a more convenient way to down an encounter for people who don't know how to play the game.
McDonalds is also more convenient than a lot of meals, but that doesn't make it a smarter, nor a more stimulating experience.

The enrage is broken. If a boss enrages it should kill you within a couple seconds. SE needs to change it so ADS pulses for 10k damage when it is enraged. When you don't meet the dps check on titan heart or ifrits nails you are dead, when you run out of time on Twintania she enrages with pules damage that is impossible to heal through and kills you in 1 or 2 pulses, proper enrage mechanics that work correctly.

All I see in party finder are Turn 2 enrage mode 1 tank 3 healers 4 dps. This is not how the fight was meant to be beaten. Exploiting a design flaw in the fight to ignore mechanics and not have to learn how to do the fight as it was intended is not how the game should be played. As others have said its almost as bad as when people were bugging Twintania to make it only autoattack which promptly got fixed by SE. Turn 2 isn't hard but if you can't beat the fight in the proper way you don't deserve gear from it.

I hope SE ups the damage when the boss enrages and fixes people cheesing the fight.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

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You say this is a design flaw, though I personally can't see it. Someone sat there and coded this; do you really think they overlooked that the damage they were putting in for him to do wasn't going to be enough to wipe the group? It's simple. There are hard enrages like the ones you mentioned and soft enrages, like the one you didn't mention; Turn 4. If they up the damage here then surely they should make Turn 4 enrage one shot you aswel.