PVP, Materia, and a "Real Living Economy"

Yoshi P claimed that PVP would create a "Real Living Economy" (link) However, currently the economy seems to have stagnated due mainly to high housing prices causing people to horde gil. Besides a few entry level PVP gear that can be crafted, as of now in 2.1, it seems PVP really has very little effect on the economy. However, after doing some research on PVP and materia, I believe that I have figured out Yoshi's plan for PVP and the economy, and I'm not certain if it has been fully implemented yet.

Everything from this point on is an educated guess on what I think Yoshi's grand plan for PVP and the economy is. I've always been fascinated by the economy in ffxiv, which lead to me level all DOH and DOL to 50. I've been "playing" the market for a very long time, since early in 1.0.

First of all I should point out that I do not PVP. However I have heard that there is ilvl 90 PVP gear that can be melded with materia. I also heard that there exists materia specific to PVP that provides resistances. I don't know how to obtain this armor, nor do I know anything about the specific stats, but I believe it is safe to make three assumptions concerning PVP gear.


1: The stat caps for secondary stats will be about the same as the secondary stats for AF2 and Allagan ilvl 90.

2: Ilvl 90 PVP gear requires materia in order to be best in slot

3: Due to the extremely competitive nature of PVP, players will be highly motivated to fully meld their ilvl 90 PVP gear to be best in slot.


Let's assume that you are a bard and that your ilvl 90 PVP pants have no crit attack. Bard's Tights, the ilvl AF2 pants gear for bard has 34 crit attack. So if you wanted to cap crit attack materia to your ilvl 90 PVP gear you would need to meld 2 IV materia, 2 III materia, and 1 II materia to reach this cap. Or you could meld 4 IV materia, (one of which will not be fully utilized) and still have a materia slot left over to use for a different stat. (which will probably need another IV materia) So in order to fully meld ilvl 90 gear, most likely one would need to penta-meld IV materia onto their gear.

I have 5 IV materia on my gryphonskin kecks, which have 2 materia slots. If I recall correctly, the percent for the last slot was 8-12%. So if people need to penta meld all of their PVP gear, they are going to be blowing up a lot of IV materia. (about 40-60 per gear slot on average I believe) This would create a HUGE demand for materia. A huge demand for materia, would mean a huge demand for crafted gear to spiritbond, which means a huge demand for mats. Now granted, there are resistance materia that come from PVP, so I'm going to make a 4th assumption, which would make both the resistance materia and regular materia viable for PVP

4: Stat materia are a requirement for BIS gear. However, there is a cap for the resistance materia and after a certain point of decreasing marginal utility, it is better to use other materia

However I don't think Yoshi is going to stop there. I believe that PVP will, in an indirect way, increase demand for philosophy tome crafting items. I've heard rumors that you can convert ilvl 70 crafted gear, like Vanya gear, into tier V materia. Even if these rumors are not true, I believe that the ilvl 70 gear will eventually be a source of tier V materia. Tier V materia was in Beta, and I have a screenshot of an example below. The requirements for the base item for the materia is ilvl 90, which happens to be the highest tier available to PVP. Also tier V catalyst was given to players as part of the main story line. So if they actually do introduce V materia, and it comes from 2 star crafted gear, (perhaps with a 20% chance a ilvl 70 gear will make an V materia), then the market for 2 star crafted gear will also recover, as will the market for philotomes to make those 2 star crafted gear.


http://i.imgur.com/J6eyJQj.png


So hopefully I'm on to something, because these ideas I described sound awesome to me, and they sound like they would actually create a "Real Living Economy"

I'll melt some 2star gear and let you know if I hit a materia V

I question whether enough people are interested in PVP that it should control the global economy. As a crafter, I am of the opinion that there are more people making the gear than there are buyers on my server by some distance. Given that each buyer only requires one item of gear, making multiple items as a crafter suggests we are flooding the market even more so. Now, you can argue that the spiritbonding process should encourage people to really go for it and keep spiritbonding until they have everything, meaning multiple purchases per player, but really it's multiple purchases per PVP player in a game that is quite clearly focused on PVE. With this in mind... the solution for the economy should go something like this.

The best gear in the game is obtained in dungeons, is unique and untradeable. It is not convertible, either. However... it is meldable. We'll call this A-GRADE.
The best crafted gear in the game is good enough to get through most dungeons, but not the most absolute difficult dungeons. We'll call this gear C-GRADE.
There is one optional dungeon that requires the very best gear in the game, meaning a melded A-GRADE weapon is required.
In order to beat the best optional dungeon there is, it is required that a lot of people spend time spiritbonding the best C-GRADE gear in the game so they can convert it to materia for their A-GRADE gear.

Thus, the crafters can't simply magic people into the endgame. They can only make the gear that people spiritbond. This means they are a healthy but not controlling measure in completing everything there is to do in the game, and a healthy but not controlling measure in getting the best gear. Essentially, the crafters get their purpose for crafting while the newbies who just got a whole lot of gil via RMT can't show off much because they still can't earn the best dungeon gear unless they have the skills required. This means that RMT won't control the game, either. Certainly not any more than they currently do, anyway.

To Loony, you know PVP gear is useless for PVE right? This thread isn't about PVE gear at all. Its a separate system than PVP

While I agree that melding pvp gear is definitely a market for materia I'd argue that is only one part of the overall economy and couldn't possibly be enough to understand the whole picture. Materia/gear should be one half of the equation. However, with most crafted gear being decidedly useless in the long run the only possible market remaining is just pvp gear socketing. While this gives the casual player the power to farm up items just running dungeons via spirit bonding it doesn't do much else for crafting and item farmers. The other half of the picture is clearly housing furniture. That gives the crafters a market and the item farmer a market. However, with high housing prices, that market is completely paralyzed. Yoshi-p is going to have to get those housing prices dropped to a reasonable level or he is going to need to find some other way to give more items in the world more rarity and utility besides just materia. Materia is not enough to sustain an entire economy.

They need to make the consumables actually worth people using, or at least make them tempting for people to use, as that is currently the only market I can actually see being sustainable.

Or they need to add some sort of gear decay and make crafted gear relevant.

As far as housing stuff goes... Most FC's will make their own furniture/decorations, really no reason to waste a ton of gil to get someone else to make stuff for you.

G[QUOTE=Tiggy; snip .[/QUOTE]

I only said what I THOUGHT might happen, based on simple assumptions and deductions, I never said what I WANT to happen to the economy. Secondly, I never said materia should be the basis of the economy, I just said that materia used in PVP would revitalize the economy. I happen to agree with you on all your points.

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

To Loony, you know PVP gear is useless for PVE right? This thread isn't about PVE gear at all. Its a separate system than PVP

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I'm not disagreeing with what you were saying about PVP and whatnot, more so mentioning that the "real living economy" will need to be created on the back of PVE gear. Sorry, perhaps just misunderstanding on my part. ^^;

1. PvP gear is not restricted to PvP, it can be used in PvE.
2. i90 PvP gear has decent stats it just substitutes one stat for Morale. It is not useless for PvE, it just isnt the best. Same goes for PvE gear in PvP.
3. PvP gear without materia is still great. Nobody needs materia for their PvP gear. Perhaps in 6-12 months, but not now, and not soon.
4. I see no real economy happening from PvP gear as all of the equipment aside from the absolute worst tier is purchased with Marks, not crafted. This includes PvP matera
5. A full i90 PvE gear set is equivalent to a full i70 PvP set when used in PvP.

Bottomline: PvP does pretty much nothing to the global economy, and crafting (aside from melding) won't do jack crap for PvP. Unless you're using a fresh 50 alt job that you have no gear for in PvP, there is no reason to purchase craftable PvP gear.

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

I'm not disagreeing with what you were saying about PVP and whatnot, more so mentioning that the "real living economy" will need to be created on the back of PVE gear. Sorry, perhaps just misunderstanding on my part. ^^;

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I misunderstood your point too. I'm not sure what level I think that crafting and gathering should be implemented in PVE. I understand why Yoshi doesn't want end game best in slot PVE gear to be crafted. I think this system fits PVP better because there is much more incentive in PVP to be the "Best" while most players settle for "Good enough" for PVE.

I think the biggest problem with the economy is the lack of gear/item sinks in the game. I think food should be more important. Also I think it would be cool if SE implemented a content similar to Hamlet in 1.0 that involved gear sinks. For those unfamiliar with 1.0 I'd like to see a system where crafter's arm NPCs with weapons and a munitions, while gatherers resupply their stockpile and tanks and healers protect the NPCs and crafter/gathered.

If this is indeed what they're going for it would explain why they dished out IV materia like candy in 2.1. That being said with the housing prices being what they are no one will even consider wasting their money trying to overmeld IV materia to PvP gear. I think they intended on PVP being a lot bigger than it actually is, and its backfiring, destroying the economy.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

If this is indeed what they're going for it would explain why they dished out IV materia like candy in 2.1.

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I'm not sure one materia IV of each color (not even each type) from a one-time-only quest equates to "dish out like candy".

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Originally Posted by Sinth

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Thank you for your corrections regarding PVP gear, could you also answer a few questions I have about it. How do you get ilvl 90 PvP gear? Could you provide me with the stats on a piece as an example? How many materia slots do they have? How many people have ilvl 90 gear? Edit: how do you acquire resistance materia for PVP?

Besides that I think you underestimate how willing people are to go there extra mile for an edge in acompetition like PVP

Remember at 2.0's launch people were saying 2 star crafted gear was useless

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Originally Posted by Sinth

1.
5. A full i90 PvE gear set is equivalent to a full i70 PvP set when used in PvP.

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I don´t know from where you got this but from my experience doing PvP for a week long, I cant tell you that Morale is most important in PvP. I play MRD specced as DPS, wearing full HQ PvP Gear, and I alone have blown many whitemages wearing full Allagan sets, while the little misfits that wear HQ Crafted PvP gear are hard as nuts for me to break.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

If this is indeed what they're going for it would explain why they dished out IV materia like candy in 2.1. That being said with the housing prices being what they are no one will even consider wasting their money trying to overmeld IV materia to PvP gear. I think they intended on PVP being a lot bigger than it actually is, and its backfiring, destroying the economy.

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I dont think the economy was destroyed, just stagnated and it will slowly recover as housing prices go down and people start spending gear. Also people won't go all out melding PVP gear until there is somewhat solid theorycrafting behind what are the best melds for PVP gear. I also think PVP will becomeore popular once other types of PVP (capture the flag, Frontlines) are introduced.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm not sure one materia IV of each color (not even each type) from a one-time-only quest equates to "dish out like candy".

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It is when every single player on the server gets them. Have you seen the marketboards? Savage Aim IV used to sell for 200-300k on my server, now its selling for 40k, and that's the most expensive one out of all the materia they allowed you to choose from. Battledance IV is sitting at around 20k. The prices have dropped dramatically, and the materia market is broken compared to what it used to be. Before 2.1 spiritbonding i55 gear and converting it was a fun way to gamble and maybe make a decent amount of money. Now it's likely a loosing bet.
If nothing is rare nothing will have value, and if nothing has value no one will be able to save money for ridiculous housing prices.

Not sure why you would ever "overmeld" IV materia. You should use IV materia on the 100% chance slots, unless you really enjoy losing money.

Honestly, I think the larger problem here is that people think ilvl is actually meaningful. The majority of people (from what I've observed) don't even care whether or not an ilvl70 piece is better than an ilvl90 piece. They will still use the ilvl90 piece to increase their epeen size. I don't know how many times I've seen people say "omg I'm ilvl86 now!" when that number should not be achievable if they are wearing BiS gear.

If people realized how great most of the ilvl70 crafted accessories were, then I believe the materia market would increase substantially.

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

Thank you for your corrections regarding PVP gear, could you also answer a few questions I have about it. How do you get ilvl 90 PvP gear? Could you provide me with the stats on a piece as an example? How many materia slots do they have? How many people have ilvl 90 gear? Edit: how do you acquire resistance materia for PVP?

Besides that I think you underestimate how willing people are to go there extra mile for an edge in acompetition like PVP

Remember at 2.0's launch people were saying 2 star crafted gear was useless

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i90PvP gear is acquired by spending Marks obtained by participating in PvP.
Direwolf Trident
Resistance Materia is purchased with marks from the vendors in Wolves Den (where all PvP gear is purchased)
Not many people have i90 PvP gear yet, it takes quite a bit of PvPing to obtain.
Sure people will have their PvP gear melded, but buying the craftable PvP gear is an absolute waste if you have a moderately geared PvE job.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

i90PvP gear is acquired by spending Marks obtained by participating in PvP.
Direwolf Trident
Resistance Materia is purchased with marks from the vendors in Wolves Den (where all PvP gear is purchased)
Not many people have i90 PvP gear yet, it takes quite a bit of PvPing to obtain.
Sure people will have their PvP gear melded, but buying the craftable PvP gear is an absolute waste if you have a moderately geared PvE job.

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Um... I'm not talking about the crafted PVP gear, I'm talking about melding the ilvl 90 gear.

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

Um... I'm not talking about the crafted PVP gear, I'm talking about melding the ilvl 90 gear.

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You can meld anything you want to the i90 PvP gear but the melded stats will not be calculated when you are out of PvP. So if you took an i90 PvP weapon, put a bunch of Vitality on it, when the person was anywhere outside of the PvP arena, they would not receive the Vitality bonus. Did that address your question?

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Originally Posted by Sinth

You can meld anything you want to the i90 PvP gear but the melded stats will not be calculated when you are out of PvP. So if you took an i90 PvP weapon, put a bunch of Vitality on it, when the person was anywhere outside of the PvP arena, they would not receive the Vitality bonus. Did that address your question?

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Sorry I misread your post. I understand what you meant now. I noticed that the spear you posted is not rare/ex. This leads me to another question. Can you swap gear in PVP at any point? Because I could see a PVP group that wants to be the top group on the server having different weapons fully melded for different opponents. For example, they could swap from a crit melded spear to a sleep resistance if the other team has a blm. Is there currently a PVP ranking system? If not is there plans for one?

Although I haven't tried, I believe PvP battles follow the same restrictions as PvE battles in that you cannot change gear during a fight. As it is easy for the enemy team to conceals themselves before the match starts, it would be difficult to per-emptively switch gear to counter your opponents.

The ranking system is based off of PvP experience, in that it is the same as leveling a job. There is no leader boards or other standings system implemented and I am unaware of any plans to implement one.

Basically, as my original post states, PvP has done pretty much nothing to the economy and there is miniscule profit to be made anywhere around it.

Oh I'm sure there will be way more demand for materia soon. Unfortunately for those pvping, the prices will of course sky rocket. Except, unless you sell material, don't want any houses, and play the market, there is no way you'll ever afford all the material you'll need for pvp. And thus, there will be a division of the rich and the poor, turning the games end game pvp into "buy2win". I say "buy", because that's going to be many peoples first option. Frankly, this entire patch seems aimed at lining RMT pockets. Vacuum out all the saved gil with housing, then skyrocket the materia market by making it essential for pvp, and you have a hell of a drug to hook the kiddies on.

Mark my words. The game is becoming less about skill or hard work... Just who can afford to buy the most Gil.