Griefing & Party Kick Abuse

So, I ran into this issue today. I'm sorry if it's been brought up, but I spent 10 minutes trying to find where to place this and where it might be located. I found other threads about "party kick abuse," but this one is different.

I was in a Titan EX Duty Finder. A certain Individual claimed he knew the fight, and he won it on his alt. Throughout the whole fight, he was performing horribly and hurting the group. We all talk to him about it, and then he says, "Kick me, I have to go. Time to do Ifrit EX." Well, this guy has made a fool out of himself, and at this point we don't want to kick him. We advise him to take the 30 minute penalty.

This Individual then goes to to pull Titan and wipe the whole group over and over until we would kick him. Here's where the problem is: People who don't want to take a 30 minute penalty, but they want to leave the group, can openly grief people until the party gets so upset they kick them. Thus they don't receive a penalty.

This isn't fair. I reported him to a GM, and we also eventually kicked him after he MPK'd us about 3-4 times. But, this is a clear abuse of the system. Is there not some way to combat this? How should I go about handling this situation next time?

For the record, he did seem to be a child, cussing and talking like he had no idea what he was talking about.

You can do nothing but kick him out and report.

Nothing you can do, the kick system needs to penalize the people being kicked, but if you do that then people will start kicking to be jerks, but if you don't then you get what you just had. Now if he kept pulling Titan and doing that, honestly I would have stayed dead and waited for him to leave.. I can be a jerk too lmao, would have got up, got a drink, come back he's still there, talk in FC, tab out and rewatch a video on the fight, etc etc.

Continue not giving a crap?

I can't believe people still don't realize abandoning a group prevents them from queuing for content. It does not prevent others from queuing them into content. At least in the last build it did.

Should have shown them how much of a difference they were really making imo :|

I don't get it. Why didn't you just kick him out? Spite? You thought he deserved the 30 minute debuff? Either way he would have been gone and him having or not having a timer lock would have 0 impact on your group. Sounds like you were griefing yourself; unless I misread something?

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Originally Posted by StarHate

I don't get it. Why didn't you just kick him out? Spite? You thought he deserved the 30 minute debuff? Either way he would have been gone and him having or not having a timer lock would have 0 impact on your group. Sounds like you were griefing yourself; unless I misread something?

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It's not necessarily applicable to Titan EX due to the small party size, but we've had people like the person Kuposan is talking about able to instantly queue back into our CT group. They SHOULD be getting a 30 minute debuff for two reasons. A) They should not be able to instantly queue into another group and just ruin their chances at a kill and B) On the off chance they do queue back into your group (which is a possibility) that has a clear impact on your group and it means that whoever initiated the vote kick wasted that vote.

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

It's not necessarily applicable to Titan EX due to the small party size, but we've had people like the person Kuposan is talking about able to instantly queue back into our CT group. They SHOULD be getting a 30 minute debuff for two reasons.

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Kicking them out is the punishment though..... asking for FURTHER punishment makes you look petty. Add a 30 min timer to kicked players and then you will see the real griefing begin. I see your point about re-entry and would agree that a kicked player shouldn't be able to re-enter the same group, but once they are out.... who cares? You want SE to send a rep to their house and kick them in the balls too? Removing them from your group is recourse enough.

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Originally Posted by StarHate

I don't get it. Why didn't you just kick him out? Spite? You thought he deserved the 30 minute debuff? Either way he would have been gone and him having or not having a timer lock would have 0 impact on your group. Sounds like you were griefing yourself; unless I misread something?

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While it's a reasonable course of action in this case, it actually is technically abuse of the kick feature. What if the person you kicked then reported you for griefing?

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Originally Posted by KupoSan

So, I ran into this issue today. I'm sorry if it's been brought up, but I spent 10 minutes trying to find where to place this and where it might be located. I found other threads about "party kick abuse," but this one is different.

For the record, he did seem to be a child, cussing and talking like he had no idea what he was talking about.

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Blame lies with the penalty for leaving as well. If people want to leave, let them leave. If there was no penalty, people who were actually committed to the same cause would stay and those that were not would leave; improving quality of group effort.

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Originally Posted by StarHate

Removing them from your group is recourse enough.

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that's the issue though. Kicking them does not necessarily mean that they will be removed from your group. They can instantly queue back in and you may be stuck with them AGAIN.

And this is the problem with the debuffs and restrictions and penalties on everything. People should be able to kick as many people as they want or leave as many groups as they want. Trying to force people who dont want to play together to keep playing together isnt going to end in happy sunshine handholding.

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Originally Posted by Necaust

Blame lies with the penalty for leaving as well. If people want to leave, let them leave. If there was no penalty, people who were actually committed to the same cause would stay and those that were not would leave; improving quality of group effort.

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If there were no penalty, trolls could queue over and over again, join groups, pull mobs, leave instance, requeue immediately. >_>

Not saying it's a likely scenario, but people willing to abuse the system will find a way.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

If there were no penalty, trolls could queue over and over again, join groups, pull mobs, leave instance, requeue immediately. >_>

Not saying it's a likely scenario, but people willing to abuse the system will find a way.

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Someone who is looking to troll for the lulz, will keep trolling regardless of penalties. But with the restrictions, people troll to specifically get kicked from a party they dont like and avoid the penalties.

I prefer freedom over some system that really doesn't improve anything at all and is just there to "protect" people with imaginary fears of what "could" but is extremely unlikely to happen, like yourself. Though the system creates more problems than it solves.

Just /sit and the boss will not aggro on you. Fun trick when someone is griefing people like this.

I guess to clarify: I did feel he deserved a 30 minute penalty. Someone who is forcing people to kick him due to not wanting the 30 minute penalty... maybe it's a character flaw for me, but I think that person doesn't deserve the satisfaction of being able to leave and requeue when he's doing this on purpose. He had full knowledge of what he wanted to do, and he knew how he would accomplish it. I just don't think he should have the satisfaction of throwing a temper tantrum and getting his way. I'll admit that's wrong of me, but also, if I requeue and he's in my group again, there's going to be issues.

I'll try the /sit thing again, but last time I did that I still died due to Titan's AoE, stomps, rock buster, etc.

To reply to Star Hate: I don't feel I was griefing myself. I feel I was stubborn. I feel that I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of getting his way without a penalty. But is that wrong of me to want someone who is trolling and MPKing people with full knowledge of his or her actions to get a penalty? I don't know. I can't justify letting someone like him get his way. As I admitted before, perhaps it's a character flaw of mine. What's going to stop other people from wanting a group to purposefully kick him/her and requeue thinking nothing of it?

i.e. "Hey, this group sucks, I'm going to go wipe or not heal or act like I'm AFK on purpose so I can get kicked and leave this newb group. <insert actions> Cool, I got kicked. Time to requeue up and keep going! No penalty ftw!"

I just... don't get it.

I can see how this would be aggravating, but if he was really wanting to run other content with friends I can see where he wanted to get kicked to avoid the penalty. He handled it very childishly, but I think if someone asked to be kick I would. It's still just a game and there's no point in jailing someone in content with me who wishes to leave. Before he requested to get kicked was he griefing the party? It just sounds like he was dying a lot and the group was fail anyway.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

I can see how this would be aggravating, but if he was really wanting to run other content with friends I can see where he wanted to get kicked to avoid the penalty. He handled it very childishly, but I think if someone asked to be kick I would. It's still just a game and there's no point in jailing someone in content with me who wishes to leave. Before he requested to get kicked was he griefing the party? It just sounds like he was dying a lot and the group was fail anyway.

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I only died once to tumults (talking to my friends) and got knocked out of the arena because the dps was low and they broke me out during the casting of the landslide. Kuposan blamed me for everyone failing, I can't carry 7 other ppl, and yeah i wanted to down it with my friends who already downed it on their mains with me so, I was using df as a practice place, I did say i was killing time, and i asked nicely for them to kick me, but Kupo's high horse is too tall.

The last thing I will say on this matter: You blatantly told everyone you had cleared it and knew what to do, but you kept dying over and over. Once people started to flame you, you acted childish. True, I fed your troll mannerisms. I am at fault. But, there was no need for you to boast of your accomplishments so highly, fail horribly, then get an attitude and MPK people while not wanting to leave due to a penalty. You deserved the penalty, and that's a fact. /endthread

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

I prefer freedom over some system that really doesn't improve anything at all and is just there to "protect" people with imaginary fears of what "could" but is extremely unlikely to happen, like yourself. Though the system creates more problems than it solves.

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I actually agree with your sentiment here, and was simply playing devil's advocate earlier. Restrictions for the sake of preventing fringe cases while ignoring larger, more prevalent issues lead to things like not being able to send tells in dungeons. >_<

So, just a thought here but... purely hypothetical, not referring to the case in this thread because I wasn't there ...

If MPKing was/is ban-able, and exploiting is certainly ban-able.
If a player enters an instance for the sake of being a troll, or decides to troll the party after an attempt or 2. Begins MPKing with the express purpose of getting kicked from the instance in order to exploit the kick not giving a DF CD. Is that not committing 2 ban-able offences at once? Should that go on w/o repercussions?

Isn't it bad enough that players (more so in 2.0) will enter an instance /check ppl and then leave if they don't see the gear is as high as they like. Which still kills me, like they started out in full i90 ... awesome people, or community(?) if it can be called that ... sorry tangent there.

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Originally Posted by StarHate

but once they are out.... who cares?

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Erm - another 5 - 20 groups such moron will join and ruin the run for after yours? Look at it other way - if another group kick the moron and you'll get it in your group - how would you feel? Would you not prefer him / her to be grounded for a half hour instead?

Here's the funny thing that everyone seemed to missed out on. If this guy claimed to have done it on an "alt" where by definition of the word alt meaning another character. So, why would it matter if he leaves and get a penalty when he can switch to his alt to do more dungeon runs. And I laugh at his "explanation" of using DF to practice it if he claims to have done it already and knows about the fight. And his explanation about the low dps just makes him a jerk, when it's clear that these people are learning the fight, therefore watching what to avoid and paying less attention to their rotations. It means nothing to have the top dps if you don't know what to avoid because you're not watching what to avoid. So, clearly, he's trolling you both in that run and in here. His actions has shown otherwise. Furthermore, I thought that getting kicked out gets you a 15 min penalty, but if that isn't the case, then yes, there should be a similar time penalty for those that abandon the dungeon. Keep in mind, SE did announce they would be adding a vote to abandon DF without time penalty in the near future.

Wait, does this mean someone can just que the DF, act like a troll(like keep aggroing titan without the party being ready) get kicked and then keep re-queing without any time-out? this seems like a flawed system >.<

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Originally Posted by HEC

Erm

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But that isn't what happened. You are trying to lay out a worst case scenario to make the argument work. Let's say we change it and there is a 30 minute debuff timer added to vote kick. Do you know how much these forums will explode from people griefing others with it? DPS kicking tanks at the end of a run to spite them out of the queue? Zenith groups vote kicking out members in DF who say no to speed runs? People just generally being tools and forcing the debuff timers on others?

You know what I would do? Vote kick them out. Done. The OP even said he knew he was being petty by wanting to debuff the guy and not just kick him out. That seems like a good way to develop policy to you? You guys really need to think about the big picture here, not knee-jerk reactions. As someone else mentioned, the more strict this stuff becomes to "protect" people, the more abuse begins to skyrocket.

Have you forgotten that SE takes abuse to vote kick seriously, any abuse of it will be dealt with. If people report those who abuse the vote kicking, the violators will be dealt with. So why worry about more stuff with time penalty added to it and worry that more grievers will do it. If anything, there will be less grievers unless they want to be banned from the game.