Is PLD going to DPS as good as WAR?
Also, will PLD get something to compete with Overpower? Flash is boring, give us something more interesting to do.
WAR is a more challenging and interesting class. I would take a nerf to my PLD's overpowered cooldowns if we get a more compelling rotation or a mechanic that keeps me awake during a long fight.
Garuda and BC Turn 2 are the only fights that are enjoyable to tank atm. Everything else is stand still and 1, 2, 3, CD, repeat. Yawn.
So if WAR is going to tank as good as PLD...
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12-04-2013, 05:28 PMKamekSo if WAR is going to tank as good as PLD...
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12-04-2013, 05:40 PMZoomieObviously never tanked turn 4. That is some crazy shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamek
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12-04-2013, 05:43 PMExstal
EM Titan is on the way just hold out for a little while longer!
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12-04-2013, 05:45 PMShneibeltry tank ifrit in bikini if it is not fun then go to titan bikini and see if it is for your tasteQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamek
and I prefer flash more than that overpower crap, at least it can give a higher chance to dodge Flip the table -
12-04-2013, 06:21 PMKitruIt already does. If you're not getting similar DPS mileage our of your PLD as a WAR is capable of getting, you're doing something wrong (or comparing a WAR and PLD using a massive gear disparity).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamek
Flash is effectively free (since it's MP and the only MP consumer a PLD will use other than Stoneskin), easier to use (way faster animation, larger area of effect, circle instead of cone), and has a beneficial side effect (Blind). You also have Circle of Scorn so it's not like Flash is the *only* AoE you've got. Overpower just has damage and that's pretty much it: it's incredibly expensive, a cone, and gets nothing else.Quote:
Also, will PLD get something to compete with Overpower? Flash is boring, give us something more interesting to do.
I'm curious as to how exactly PLDs deserve something more than Flash because WARs have Overpower. The only real AoE option that WAR gets is Overpower (Steel Cyclone requires 5 Wrath stacks which are only generated via combos, which are all ST). PLD has 2 attacks that it actually uses. The only reason that PLDs complain about Flash even though it's, honestly, amazing is because they get blinded by the damage discrepancy and ignore everything else that Flash brings.
I'll mimic what Zoomie has already said: you obviously don't do t4. There are some phases where the dread tank just stands and eats hits while doing its rotation, but anyone that *isn't* tanking the dreads actually has to do a *lot* of moving around. I actually think that turn 4 is one of the most fun fights out there because of the controlled chaos.Quote:
Garuda and BC Turn 2 are the only fights that are enjoyable to tank atm. Everything else is stand still and 1, 2, 3, CD, repeat. Yawn.
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12-04-2013, 11:09 PMTirionCrey
Turn 4 is hand full to handle as the OT if you are still progressing or can't reliably one shot it...once you got used to it, it's almost a dance. I literally do the exact same things and move the exact same way every single week and it always ends up being exactly the same as the week before. It's not controlled chaos, it's a dance lesson.
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12-04-2013, 11:11 PMLyndoggy_Dogoff tanked turn 4, MT is zzzzQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoomie
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12-04-2013, 11:26 PMZephyrK
I'm not really convinced Warrior will be as good of a tank as Paladin still. Has anyone done any serious analysis? I can't find anything.
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12-04-2013, 11:27 PMTirionCreyPeople can't analyze what is not available yet. We don't have the facts, we just have planned changes and some of them w/o any data(like SP damage debuff).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrK
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12-04-2013, 11:33 PMZephyrKI see. I didn't realize some numbers hadn't been released yet. It seems warriors will have great tanking synergy with paladins, and that's great. My first thought when I read the changes was, "Well, having a warrior in party will make Paladins tanks even better."Quote:
Originally Posted by TirionCrey
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12-05-2013, 12:55 AMPaikisThis is already the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrK
- Storm's Eye provides an effective 11% increase to a Paladin's (or other Warrior's) damage (and threat) on the target it is applied to. It is also the combo Warriors must use if they don't want to be either out of TP very fast, or tanking the mob.
- On fights with threat-swapping, the burst nature of a Warrior allows for obscene threat jumps while the Warrior is tanking and the Paladin can ride that huge threat buffer once he takes over. -
12-05-2013, 01:53 AMLeonusMy first thought was, " I'll stand on almost equal ground as pld now".Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrK
Though, I'll have to have the fight committed to memory more in depth than a pld to tank as efficiently. That is if these changes are implemented correctly lol. -
12-05-2013, 02:07 AMAmyas
I know people who say pld dps is relatively the same as war dps have the math to back it up, but has anyone seen really high crits for a rage of halone? I've been getting 900 crit butcher's blocks at least twice in every AK run on my War, can someone tell me if their Pld has gotten similar numbers? Of course that's blasting a lot of cooldowns (maim, SE debuff, berserk, internal release, unchained... icr if I had dps gear on or not, think I've had close to that with vit on for sure though), but you'd think that alone would set us over a good chunk over Pld dps.
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12-05-2013, 03:00 AMBaci
DPS =|= High Numbers
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12-05-2013, 03:04 AMVmagethey already do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamek
in vit gear with vit allocation i've hit crit halone in the 600s in sword oath, don't think i've seen a 700 yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amyas
considering sword oath is adding another 50 potency 'weaponskill' hit every auto attack.. which is about the same delay as the gcd... yeah, pretty similar if not better than a 900 butcher block -
12-05-2013, 03:25 AMKitruNo, I wouldn't. Looking at the size of a single hit over the course of an entire fight means next to nothing to DPS. You're talking about a single data point in a fight that could have have well over 1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amyas
PLD will *never* get the same huge numbers in single blows that a WAR gets. That's not what PLD is designed to get. PLD generates similar damage by throwing out a lot more instances of damage than a WAR does. WAR only gets big numbers because it has fewer attacks. Fight or Flight is disgustingly good because, even though it's only 30% +damage (Unchained is a 33% increase in damage and Berserk is ~40%), it lasts a full 30 seconds (with a 90 sec CD) compared to Berserk which lasts 20 seconds (and has 5 seconds of Pacification, which guts the practical benefit). PLD also gets Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within off-GCD, which amount to an extra 45-50 potency per GCD. WAR's only off-GCD attack is Brutal Swing which, if you use it, amounts to a paltry ~4.16 (it'll shoot up to an *amazing* 6.25 with 2.1).
WAR is about big impressive numbers which is not the same as dealing a lot of damage. PLD generates roughly the same damage without the big numbers because it simply throws out more of them. -
12-05-2013, 05:29 AMNobleshield
I cannot speak to actual gameplay yet as I'm only a level 16 Gladiator, but I actually like that Paladin tanking is the oldschool style of tanking and not this "tanking needs to be engaging" nonsense that has infested WoW and other games. I like having a very simple rotation versus "active mitigation" and the like; I actually stopped tanking in other games because they tried to make tanking more involved, while it actually felt like tanking in this game.
I hope they keep it and don't ruin PLD by making it more involved. -
12-05-2013, 06:30 AMTiggy
Paladin can do very similar DPS to war already. Unless you're talking AoE damage. I don't see how pld can keep up to war when it comes to spamming AoE on a bunch of mobs, but then again that's only really useful in WP runs.
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12-05-2013, 03:10 PMPaikis
Warrior damage is spikey, Paladins is more steady. On a fight where both tanks can just stand there and burn (training dummies basically) the Warrior will come out slightly ahead, but with the Paladin riding the Warrior's slashing debuff to parity. They are about the same in terms of DPS on a single target when both are getting the benefit of Storm's Eye.
It is when you have downtime between burns that the Warrior really pulls ahead. The Warrior class is all about trading stuff later, for stuff now. Berserk and Inner Beast exemplify this. With Berserk you actually only gain a small amount of damage over the course of the 25 seconds... but you get all of it in the first 20 seconds. More damage NOW in exchange for less LATER. With Inner beast, you are trading 7% incoming heals over the next 20 seconds for a large heal NOW. Less LATER, more NOW.
If you can fit your entire spike into a 25 second window, does it matter that you're spending the next 10 seconds dodging an AoE? No, because the damage the Paladin is losing by not hitting things constantly, the Warrior has already applied. -
12-05-2013, 06:15 PMTaazWhut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Heavy Swing= 70/Maim=60/Storm's Eye=70
Heavy Swing= 70/Skull Sunder=60/Buther's Block=60
The less TP used per rotation is BB, not SE O.o -
12-05-2013, 08:45 PMPaikisButcher's Block combo will end with you tanking the mob (the next bit after the bit you bolded)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taaz
Storm's Path combo uses large amounts of TP, ergo you will run out of TP very fast (the bit you bolded). -
12-06-2013, 02:36 AMKitruYou explicitly said that it was the combo that WARs want to use if they don't want to run out of TP very fast (which is outright wrong). What you were trying to say is that you either use Storm's Eye and run out of TP faster or you end up tanking the mob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis