I realize that I might be preaching to the choir here, I've had enough bad experiences with Wandering Palaces "Speed Runs" that I wanted to open up an honest conversation regarding the practice.
Wandering Palace Speed Runs are the, current, preferred method of farming Philosophy and Mythology. Done properly they are extremely fast and efficient. However, they are also extremely stressful and very easy to mess up. With that being said, here are my thoughts and tips regarding them from a tank point of view (Paladin is my "main" job). Please note that I'm going to try and avoid so called "bright lines" (i.e. you must have exactly 3,912 hitpoints as a bard or more otherwise the run will fail) and speak more in generalities.
1. Communication: While there is a standard format for speed runs there are also a number of places where things can differ slightly. Whenever I join a /shout speed run, I do so with the expectation that the group will stick around for a few runs. As such I like to let the group know on the first run what my pulls look like and what I expect from other group members. For example, my second pull is the second half of the mobs leading up to the first boss. The only one that needs to die is the final Tonberry if everything is slept prior to pulling the boss. However, I've had plenty of times where half the group expected us to sleep the pull and the other half expected us to kill it all. Needless to say that in those instances, wipes have ensued. Communication helps prevent this misunderstanding.
2. Wipes will happen and there will be waiting around. As mentioned, speed runs are very stressful on tanks (and healers I'm sure). A single slip up will result in a wipe. If you're going to ragequit for every little wipe, you may be better sticking with your FC who will put up with your attitude. Also, there are times when I will be waiting around. It takes a certain amount of MP to pull everything and hold aggro on it. If I lack that MP, I'm going to wait a few seconds before pulling the next pack. Also, in the "maze" area there is one big Tonberry that is particularly annoying. After opening the door and going up the stairs, there is one that paths right through the middle room with 3 skeletons and the door device. Many times we'll need to wait for him to path by (especially if he's coming right down the middle of that room). Personally I take this as a good thing because it means that we're making good time.
3. Gear does matter. I'm not going to list bright lines. The gear level requirement will differ from group to group but it does matter. The better the tank's gear, the longer s/he can stay alive. The better the healer's gear, the easier it is for him/her to keep the tank alive. The better the DPS gear, the faster the stuff dies. So you saw a youtube video where a group wore swimsuits and completed the run in less than 10 minutes? I don't particularly care. If such a group exists they, likely, have been playing together for awhile and have good synergy with each other. Your typical /shout group isn't likely to duplicate the feat without a lot of practice.
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on them. Personally, with a good group I really enjoy them and consider anything under 20 minutes a "success" with my best runs around 14 minutes. But I've also found them to be the most frustrating thing possible when grouping with people who have overinflated egos. As I mentioned, I usually play a Paladin as my "main" job and part of the problem with that is I don't get to see how other tanks actually do the instance. I had to learn on the go.
Wandering Palace Speed Runs (and You)
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11-18-2013, 10:57 PMAngelwatchWandering Palace Speed Runs (and You)
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11-20-2013, 08:06 PMOne_WingedAngel
I agree with most of the point, but gear on healer matter on holy/dd but not on heal, anything above 14-15 should be considered as a failure because with a 3:4 ratio on reward you are better of doing ak sr which is more stable and can be done in sub 17-18 mins with relic +1 group.
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11-20-2013, 09:30 PMEclair_Xysha
I also think that tanks shouldn't decide its a speed run right off the bat with DF. I always examine people when I get a chance to. If someone is low geared I ask the tank to not speed run so much because someone in the party is low geared.
But then most of them, they don't listen. They want everything their way. Like hello, how do you expect max AOE damage if someone is piss poor low geared? I had a bard that came into WP with 2.5k hp asking if its a speed run... I just spat out, NO. You don't have to examine to know that person is already geared low with that HP. -
11-21-2013, 01:26 AMkukurumeiYou are exaggerating those numbers quite a lot. While you can cherry pick jobs, and do death runs to achieve those numbers, very rarely will they occure even with those cheats (who wants to die and repair to save a whole minute when you can net 300g for that minute).Quote:
Originally Posted by One_WingedAngel
AK speeds at around 30-35m depending on job combination, and safety of lag-oopsie
WP speed-semi speed- runs at around 20-25 depending on job combination and safety.
If you want to go make 15m the normal, then stop stating relic+1, because that's not, that's "I have nothing better to do between my coils". -
11-21-2013, 01:29 AMBeglariont
I had a very bad WP speed run last night. I seemed to be blamed by the tank for letting him die but curious of your opinion. Death on first pull in which the tank pulled every mob past the beetles, just before the 2nd coffer room (kill everything strat). I couldn't pour in enough heals, and we are both full DL, +1 relic. I noticed he only had Shield Oath up, as well as my shell/protect and stoneskin which was off by the time my first heal came in. Got a heal 1, heal 2 in and then he was dead. Looking back now I would have swiftcast and presence of mind to get heals off quicker, but have never needed to do this in the past.
My question to you or any tanks out there is, do you ever use in addition to shield oath, any other abilities during this first long pull at WP such as convalescence, thrill of battle, bulwark, sentinel etc...??? -
11-21-2013, 01:36 AMkukurumeiTechnically speaking, the tank shouldn't be able to hold threat for that long to die there. Usually your DPS will be aoe-ing hard enough to split the threat, and balance out the damage. (though you do have to get stress on healing both sides is a different issue).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beglariont
Blms should also be putting in a sleep-ga before initial AoE rotation, to steady the group enough time for you to top off the tank, and/or Stoneskin.
It's team work, and without it, stop shaving a few seconds, and just keeping keeping a longer run. -
11-21-2013, 01:36 AMsymba
You should be using cooldowns on pulls, you don't need them for the bosses.
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11-21-2013, 02:13 AMdragonflyseksparadeThis is funny because I was trolling people saying stuff like this last night. Whereas I feel that you actually think a 30min AK and 20min WP is fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
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11-21-2013, 02:20 AMkukurumeiThen don't go in with DL relic+1 standards. Even with the healer blowing hard in cleric stances, you're not going to get those numbers. You're trying to make i70 and i90 synonymous.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade
Even with partial i90, you're probably be lucky to hit sub 30 in ak. Even with the sac pulls on bridges and the end (it really doesn't save that much time because you gotta rebuff- steady-rebuff-weakness aware)
This makes people think they have to cherry pick jobs and do unreasonable things to make impossible numbers happen. -
11-21-2013, 02:29 AMEclair_Xysha
@Beglariont
Some tanks actually do that and really... idk why. Like getting beetles is already pushing it but continuing further? Like dude. I can't heal you until you initiate all the hate in mobs unless you want me dead because I'll pull them from you right off the bat.
Not all tanks are understanding though... some tanks would be like, "oops.... sorry. Should I go a bit slower?" Like they know who's right and wrong when they pull too much. But most of them are just like, "WHO TOLD YOU TO STOP HEALING ME?!" -
11-21-2013, 02:30 AMPArcherWhen I heal a speed-run, my PAL throws Hallowed down on that first pull (up to and including the room past the first beetles) if he has it (which is every other SR). If he has it, I just need to pop Divine Seal since he's likely to Cover me as I get some aggro from my Cure II spam as he runs to grab that last room.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beglariont
If he doesn't have it, either we only pull up to the beetles or I have to pop Seal and Mind and start healing when the beetles spawn, as he runs to the other room.
And yes, the tank should be popping at least one or two defensive CDs (outside of Hallowed and Cover) during each pull, more if needed
I have a video of a 12:23 run - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8AWl6xpC3A
As for gear: I am full i70 (Strategos Ring and Relic, everything else DL or Vanya), others have mix of i70 and i90. -
11-21-2013, 02:36 AMdragonflyseksparadeI"m sorry that you think that. We are able to do non-speed run AK runs in about 26-27 minutes with R+1/DL while eating nachos and watching netflix. If we actually put in effort it would be sub 25 minutes. Weeks ago I did a 26min AK run on my BLM when I did not have a +1 relic and half of my gear was AK gear. The other DPS was full DL, R+1, no myth/coil gear - in other words, between 2 dps, only 1 i90 item was equipped. So 25mins is quite possible without i90 gear. Speed run AK runs which don't happen much anymore can easily be 18-22 mins as someone else mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
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11-21-2013, 02:37 AMGorlioliolioAs a tank I disagree with you entirely, usually a blm will pull off maybe 1 mob that didn't get flashed because it was slightly out of range of flash #1 and its usually at 5% hp and 1 fast blade away from coming back to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
As to the question from the healer, don't run into the first pull thinking just heal, be in cleric stance beforehand, swiftcast holy, normal cast second holy then drop cleric and top off tank, you just bought 6 seconds of 0 damage to your tank, also the tank should be hitting at least 1 if not 2 cooldowns just before the last mobs of pull 1. I usually pop rampart and foresight at this point, for pull 2 I start with sentinel then bulwark when it wears off, tonberry is usually dead then and we are ready to go into boss room.
As to the OP, DONT WAIT FOR THE TONBERRY. if he is pathing towards the skeletons run right through him, this timing puts the right side split tonberry walking away slightly so you can pull the skellies ghosts and tonberrys about halfway down the hall between the rusted devices. Once you catch the tonberry turn around and run back to ghosts, pop sentinel to buy healer some time because you are probably missing some hp from the tonberry smack but your group has just outrun it and you didn't have to wait 2 minutes for him to saunter past. -
11-21-2013, 02:40 AMPArcherNow, are you talking about the room right after the beetles (buzzards) or the pull after (slugs)? You should be able to heal up to the buzzards in your gear, assuming both you and the tank pop CDs right and don't get bad RNG, and have at least competent AoE DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclair_Xysha
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11-21-2013, 03:01 AMMithrasInvictusAbsolutely I do!. I pop bulwark whenever it is up since I use a heavy darksteel scutum with a crummy block rate (this does not happen if I am only holding a couple of monsters, as the benefit is more-fully realised when that chance to block is running through the RNG several times a second), and go through a rotation of Rampart, Foresight, and Sentinel (in that order quickest CD -> longest CD), and start again at Rampart if it has cooled down before I need others, depending on the pace of the dungeon. I try to keep Fight or Flight up whenever it is available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beglariont
This is of course in a perfect world, and things get missed due to distractions or judgement calls based on how much fight a given group of monsters have left in them. -
11-21-2013, 03:08 AMkukurumeiI don't know of any pld that can outthreat a blm's flare rotation. They will take threat very soon no matter what you do. By that time, it shouldn't matter if the healer is in sync, because the blm will be getting Stoneskin, and have his own walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio
If you've been having blms that can't take threat from you, they are doing you a favor. Those flares are more or less impossible to pull back from, once they get into it.
Tanks that wait around for the CD is putting in just as much time as they are saving. A good team will meld with each other, but in the end it saves all of +/- couple of minutes.
In the end after every round WC, you really aren't doing anything special, except getting lucky on a few and bad luck on others. -
11-21-2013, 03:20 AMGorlioliolioI don't know if you are just a bad tank or a blm who groups with bad tanks but you are wrong unless every single blm ive grouped with holds back like crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
And when the mobs are really low and they are starting to pull threat is usually because ive been trying to get my mp back for the next pull, if I just kept my flash rotation going the mobs would be long dead before they pull them off. -
11-21-2013, 03:32 AMPArcherI think it really depends more on the BLM. Ours can pull with Flare, but I'll have to look at the one video again, he may have Raging up and could have pulled a bunch of crits as well. RNG does play a big role in it. And yeah, our PAL may not be keeping mob aggro up as much either, saving mana for the next pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio
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11-21-2013, 03:40 AMRehnValor
Agreed. Assuming both tank and blm are geared around the same ilevel, the pld can potentially hold hate the entire time off blm until he needs to riot blade back MP for the next pull. Spamming flash is the way to go, but there's always cover to fall back on in case of emergencies. A whm who knows when to holy during pulls can help massively as well, though ironically I tend to cover my whms anyways since mines feel like only more than 5 holy are appropriate for all pulls.
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11-21-2013, 05:48 AMsymbaIt's nothing to be ashamed of. My BLM friend has and probably will pull hate off me in the future as he generally does more damage than flash with riotblade spam can put out hate, need mana song to keep up really. But by the time he's pulling hate everything's nearly dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio
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11-21-2013, 06:04 AMBeglariont
I think he was just in a bad mood and didn't want to be there, so didn't pop CD's. Funny how I notice what the tank is doing when things don't go well. When that pull goes smoothly i'm more concerned with my cleric stance/holy numbers XD
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11-21-2013, 06:32 AMAngelwatch
Full Darklight and Relic +1 (Sword and Shield) with my second ring as Myth. That puts me just over 5,800 hitpoints. I use Rampart and the +healing CD on every pull. The second pull (the one that should be slept) I will pop invulnerable because I prefer the BLM focus on the Tonberry first before sleeping (I hate it when mobs sneak through the barrier). The other pull I use invulnerable on is the very last because of the ghosts. I also sprint while pulling to get into position faster (I don't need TP to hold aggro, just MP).
The reason I posted this in the first place is because of how frustrating it is with bad groups. Yes, a group playing with each other for a long time can afford to slack off since they know what the other people will, likely, be doing. However, this isn't true in a /shout group. Mistakes can happen and they will happen. And I've found speed runs are very unforgiving. A single mistake will, often, wipe the group and that's frustrating.
One final note. I don't ever expect a DF group to be a speed run. If I get into one with a preformed healer, BLM and Bard who are hoping for a geared tank to speed run it, that's great. And I've had that happen quite a few times. But I never expect that. It's also why I don't do DF groups these days because it just slows me down when I get an undergeared group (even with instant queuest). -
11-21-2013, 08:16 AMEclair_XyshaIt's not just that room. Was just making an example on how much they pull. I usually DF my crew. Rarely do I ever join local. So I'm just really chancing it. Rarely do I ever get all relic party but even then most of the time when that happens, DD was barely enough, thank God for Benedict. That DPS person can take adds on final boss if the player (with relic) is really that bad at its job... It's like 1:100 would I ever finish WP in 15 minutes. And most people don't know about the sleep method before first boss. I mean... can try it if the tank and the blm is up for it but it usually fails. But it's okay though. They probably get the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
But usually I don't like it when tanks speed run when deeps are low geared. Like don't take it hella slow if a low geared person showed up but don't assume that they can handle it (speed run) especially with new people. Casual with a little smuck of speed seems pretty good when ever that happens because I am not up for wiping 10 times in a row just because we can't DD enough. WP gives me gils man. GILS. I'm really chang (yes I can say chang because my race is actually chinese...) about this because... I just am. LOL I ain't ganna spend like 3k to repair if that gets me just ONE of those expensive craft materials. -
11-21-2013, 08:58 AMGrailer
what about groups with 2 BLM and you pull 4 groups and wipe .. because healer and paladin go OOM and both BLM are standing around doing IDK because the mobs have 90% HP .. yeah those are the groups people come here and QQ about tank bailing from . Don't suck please don't suck because I got better things to do that dying because you suck .
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11-21-2013, 11:22 AMZdenkaUh.... when we did my AK for my Bravura, so I was using Titan's Axe and we beat AK in 22 minutes, killing every single trash pack. I just did it with a few random people after Bravura and we cleared in 28 minutes, again killing every trash pack. Also to mention I am in full Hoplite, so my gear for tanking is sorta trash by todays standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
I'm not sure how 30-35m are speed run AKs, I think even after it was made more difficult we've done speed runs at about 16m (not with me tanking obviously) -
11-21-2013, 05:00 PMvalho25 minutes AK with Tank (War/Pld doesn't matter), Whm, Bard and Summoner, no tank sacrificing himself speed run, just kill everything that cannot be avoided.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
Sub 15 minutes for WP with Pld, Whm, Brd and Blm, only Brd and Whm have 2 pieces of myth gear, the rest all DL and Relic+1
AK 35 minute is not speed run, that's going in with our sub class that needed to get AK done for Relic quests. -
11-21-2013, 08:58 PMOne_WingedAngelI am not exaggerating at all, ok to get to 17-20 mins ak run is going to be 3 times death run style, but we are talking about speed run, so nothing else matter but time. We are just compare average achievable with relic+1 after optimisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
As for wp 15 mins should be easily doable with relic +1 with 1 wipe. The "I have nothing better to do between my coils" group should be doing below 11 even 10 if they really push it. -
11-21-2013, 09:10 PMOne_WingedAngelThe trick is not to heal, it is quite robotic for healer, it is divine seal cure 2 -> regen ->swifthcast -> holy x3 or until tank need heal. Use shroud to lose hate if tank can't keep up, benediction if things go wrong, there is actually quite a lot room for errors once you done a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beglariont
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11-22-2013, 02:06 AMCuragajaTo correct the above: Healers on WP SR should run in and Divine Seal, Regen, Cure2 tank. Immediately after the Cure2 they should Cleric's Stance and normal cast Holy 4 to 6 times then Swiftcast a final holy. While your 2.5s global cool-down is ticking away (from that last Holy) you should pop Shroud of Saints (First and Last pulls only), remove Cleric's Stance, and continue Cure2 spam until pull is about over. When the remaining mobs have 5% HP left you should begin casting Stoneskin on the tank so he/she can immediately begin next pull. Doing this I've been able to consistently get 9-12minute runs. 14-16mins if I forgot to use Shroud of Saints and we wipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio
Edit: Units on Global Cool-down. -
11-22-2013, 02:59 AMAngelwatch
Just out of curiosity what's the preferred Black Mage rotation for SRs?
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11-22-2013, 03:56 AMPArcherAh, I assumed you had a pre-made group, not DF. That changes things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclair_Xysha
See, I will never assume a speed-run in a DF unless I see relics on everyone (and even with an ideal group comp its not going to be as fast as our "normal" SR group on a slow run). If the tank insists on trying to speed and you don't have the DPS, let him die and run back towards the start before you grab aggro (on the second attempt, since you'll wipe the first time). Tell him that a speed-run isn't possible, and to take it slower, if he still refuses to slow down, just let him die.
Harsh? Yeah. Some tanks need an ego-check, sadly. -
11-22-2013, 04:56 AMBeglariontThis is my normal method, or something similar, but it does depend on the tank using some traits. My horrible run was with a tank that only used shield oath. I really want to try the sleep run style soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curagaja