Tank training

Some of these awful little tanks (I speak as 50 PLD and 50 WAR) need an instance that teaches them how to hold aoe hate. I've run into several paladins that don't flash at all...ever. Everyone else hate some amount of hate on the entire pack (usually trying to get it off the whm) and the tank literally has none.

You can't make players better who refuse to be better, but some people are just dumb and would benefit.

It is true that a sucky tank is more evident than a sucky dps but the group also suffers more due to a sucky tank.

These guys are such self-important plate-armored divas that they take offense if you try to guide them. I've tried being as nice as I can be and sugar-coating things like "No offense, but please overpower more." (Usually more than 0 times), but they either don't respond or get all uppity.

And yeah, I've made a similar thread before.

Before they can queue for dungeons, they need to learn to keep things off some npc healer that won't heal itself but will heal the tank. If healer dies, fail. Can even be nice and put a bard npc in there too with ballad up so they don't run out of mp. A paeon bard for marauders.

Any tanks reading this, here's a friendly macro that will make letting DDs know what your new target is very easy

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Shield Lob (Can change red text to Tomahawk and it will work perfectly Warriors)
/macroicon "Shield Lob"
/ac "Shield Lob" <t>
/marking attack1 <t>

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You can't teach people who don't want to learn, but I find most people willing to listen in game if you make polite suggestions.

An instance in game that teaches aoe enmity management would be grand.

Aren't there guildhests that teach basic mechanics? I haven't done all of them, so I'm not sure about aoe threat, but I know there are for other mechanics.

Not for aoe threat, and nothing that really teaches good tanking technique

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Some of these awful little tanks (I speak as 50 PLD and 50 MRD) need an instance that teaches them how to hold aoe hate. I've run into several paladins that don't flash at all...ever. Everyone else hate some amount of hate on the entire pack (usually trying to get it off the whm) and the tank literally has none.

You can't make players better who refuse to be better, but some people are just dumb and would benefit.

It is true that a sucky tank is more evident than a sucky dps but the group also suffers more due to a sucky tank.

These guys are such self-important plate-armored divas that they take offense if you try to guide them. I've tried being as nice as I can be and sugar-coating things like "No offense, but please overpower more." (Usually more than 0 times), but they either don't respond or get all uppity.

And yeah, I've made a similar thread before.

Before they can queue for dungeons, they need to learn to keep things off some npc healer that won't heal itself but will heal the tank. If healer dies, fail. Can even be nice and put a bard npc in there too with ballad up so they don't run out of mp. A paeon bard for marauders.

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Ironically the lvl 10 GLA class quest actually teaches this very thing - you have to Flash repeatedly to keep the agro off Bruce (the NPC) otherwise he'll get killed and 'Duty Failed' is your only reward. I guess a lot of players must have just fallen asleep though during that lesson and forgotten it though sadly.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Aren't there guildhests that teach basic mechanics? I haven't done all of them, so I'm not sure about aoe threat, but I know there are for other mechanics.

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The first two guildhests are supposed to teach this, but they are so mind-numbingly easy that the archer will just go collect all the mobs while the tank and melee DPS run around behind the huge train trying to do anything useful and realizing this is how the game is played for the next 30 levels.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Aren't there guildhests that teach basic mechanics? I haven't done all of them, so I'm not sure about aoe threat, but I know there are for other mechanics.

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People don't follow the rules in those either. The one where you're supposed to lure the smaller mobs away from the gobbue? Someone will just run right into the group, who isn't a tank, and take all the aggro and die.

Reading? Ain't no body got time for dat!

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Originally Posted by jabbywocks

Ain't no body got time for dat!

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Oh lord Jesus, it's a fire!

Yeah in the guildhests, everyone just pulls it all together, nobody cares because they're not actually hard.

Nothing is actually teaching these bads anything.

I spend a lot of time worrying that my level ~30 Gladiator skill is not that great. I stress over dungeon runs, and panic every time hate bounces or a mob goes after my mage. After reading some of these threads about bad tanks, I think I'm going to have to revise my standards. If there are tanks that NEVER use Flash, then I must be much better than I think I am....

Maybe I should make a guide. It be mostly targeted towards Paladins though. :/

Maybe if the community at large had a bit more patience and attempted to help players who aren't as good as they are instead of treating them like shit things would improve. Clearly the only solution is to jam them in a solo instance so they can practice.

I've made guides, others have made guides, but too many people don't get on the forums. The training method should be in game.

Honestly, if a tank does nothing but flashes until he's oom, he'd at least hold everything besides [1] off the rest of the group.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

Maybe if the community at large had a bit more patience and attempted to help players who aren't as good as they are instead of treating them like shit things would improve. Clearly the only solution is to jam them in a solo instance so they can practice.

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Did you read the OP? Most of these guys, if you offer advice, they remain quiet or get all uppity, no matter how nicely you try to frame it.

Sorry but if a game constantly has 2-4 mob packs, and supertanking doesn't exist, clearly your class has some kind of aoe hate tool. If the healer is taking all the damage and the acn has not nuking so he can heal the healer, you're doing something wrong.

Both Flash and Overpower aren't even quest-reward-abilities. You just get them so all of these guys have it.

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Originally Posted by NoctisCaelus

Maybe I should make a guide. It be mostly targeted towards Paladins though. :/

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The ones that truely need help won't read a guide. It has to be something that forces them to learn.

I doubt the ones that people have trouble with even visit the forums. :x

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Originally Posted by Blarp

Maybe if the community at large had a bit more patience and attempted to help players who aren't as good as they are instead of treating them like shit things would improve. Clearly the only solution is to jam them in a solo instance so they can practice.

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If you read most of the posts, they suggested to flash or overpower more, which flaming in response.

Also if you try and help a tank learn how ot play they rage out and say "I no what im doin!!" Has happened multiple times healing low lvl instances when i get aggro from a my first cure 20 seconds into the fight .

Tanking in 3 steps.

#1. If you are taking a lot of damage, pop a cooldown.
#2. If the healer is dying, you are doing a bad job. If you are dying, the healer is doing a bad job.
#3. If the DPS is dying, they are dpsing wrong.

I figure I should ask before I get much farther towards endgame on my Paladin, but for how long is the basic Flash -> FB -> SB -> Halone -> Flash rotation I use viable? Is there a new rotation setup I should get used to using for endgame content?

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Originally Posted by Akuha

I figure I should ask before I get much farther towards endgame on my Paladin, but for how long is the basic Flash -> FB -> SB -> Halone -> Flash rotation I use viable? Is there a new rotation setup I should get used to using for endgame content?

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We talking single target or multiple mobs?

While we're at it, that enmity management tutorial should be for all roles, not just for tanks. It should teach people to slow down or stop their dps too when needed, to wait at least a second before attacking on each pull, to mark mobs and kill them in a specific order, and to discover what these little icons and bars on the party and enemy frames are for.

I mean it seriously. Many people don't know these basic things.

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Originally Posted by Akuha

I figure I should ask before I get much farther towards endgame on my Paladin, but for how long is the basic Flash -> FB -> SB -> Halone -> Flash rotation I use viable? Is there a new rotation setup I should get used to using for endgame content?

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Don't be discouraged but when you hit 50 initially, you'll probably lose hate often. It's like a level 40 trying to tank off 45s. Don't let that get to you

If you've got 2 single target dps, like to Flash FB SB Flash Halone Flash.

If it's summoners, I weave in a lot of flashes, and then there's the demon I call SCHummoner. You'll find a lot of times you're double flashing. When you get to speed runs, flash until you've spent half your mp, at least.

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Originally Posted by Akuha

I figure I should ask before I get much farther towards endgame on my Paladin, but for how long is the basic Flash -> FB -> SB -> Halone -> Flash rotation I use viable? Is there a new rotation setup I should get used to using for endgame content?

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What I do is start with a Shield Lob, then use Flash twice to get a hold on the pack, and then use the FB-SB-RoH rotation changing targets from time to time. For example, FB on current target, SB on the next, then RoH on the first one again, and so on, using some SB or RoH on another target if it's losing aggro. Sometimes I throw another Flash too from time to time, depending on how I see the enmity on the whole pack or if there's more than four mobs (you also get a nice blind), but I find it easier to hold it if I do that rotation between targets, as it gives you a ton more aggro than Flash.

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Originally Posted by Blarp

Maybe if the community at large had a bit more patience and attempted to help players who aren't as good as they are instead of treating them like shit things would improve. Clearly the only solution is to jam them in a solo instance so they can practice.

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i played world of warcraft for 6 years

people didnt listen to me when i gave them advice and some people did more than just not listen when i gave them advice

i don't like giving people advice unless they specifically ask me for it. they generally act like you took a dump in their mouth while they were sleeping if you so much as critique their flawless technique without their consent to be criticized

it is really not that hard to figure out either. most of these people do not even try. they are too concerned about the depletion of their resources to actually use them and don't even pay enough attention to realize they regenerate 60 TP every 3s.

That is probably accurate for PLD's MP as well, but to be honest I don't pay attention to it myself since they have Riot Blade combo.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

What I do is start with a Shield Lob, then use Flash twice to get a hold on the pack, and then use the FB-SB-RoH rotation changing targets from time to time. For example, FB on current target, SB on the next, then RoH on the first one again, and so on, using some SB or RoH on another target if it's losing aggro. Sometimes I throw another Flash too from time to time, depending on how I see the enmity on the whole pack or if there's more than four mobs (you also get a nice blind), but I find it easier to hold it if I do that rotation between targets, as it gives you a ton more aggro than Flash.

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This is what I do as well, and I rarely lose aggro. Only exception is a black mage getting trigger happy or repeatedly casting flare without using quelling strikes. It also helps to pop Fight or Flight at the beginning of an encounter to give you that little boost (and your off GCD abilities, assuming you don't have to save the silence for something and you aren't CCing any mobs).

If the mob pack is going to be more than 3, I flash spam the hell out of it.

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Originally Posted by Akuha

I figure I should ask before I get much farther towards endgame on my Paladin, but for how long is the basic Flash -> FB -> SB -> Halone -> Flash rotation I use viable? Is there a new rotation setup I should get used to using for endgame content?

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I tend to Flash once or twice for initial hate, then FB> SB > Tab to second target > Halone > Tab to first/third (depending on number of mobs) > FB > SB > Tab > Halone > repeat
After 3 mobs though it starts to become difficult, but unless your DDs are extremely decked you're going to get a lot more enmity that way than with flash. Works for everything I've fought so far (Including low level content) and I've done everything including Turn 5.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Ironically the lvl 10 GLA class quest actually teaches this very thing - you have to Flash repeatedly to keep the agro off Bruce (the NPC) otherwise he'll get killed and 'Duty Failed' is your only reward. I guess a lot of players must have just fallen asleep though during that lesson and forgotten it though sadly.

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lol not for me. I even wondered if i should flash, and tried the fight w/o flashing, and he was overpowered. he didnt get hurt at all, and held all the hate.

so not sure how come it was so different for me.

I used to just play tank, but I decided to switch to archer. Out of like around 10 tanks I've had, only 1 of them that I remember, actually marked the mobs. Playing as an archer and keeping my distance, it takes me awhile to see what mob the tank is attacking. Really hard if 2 mobs are getting attacked at once...

That's the most annoying thing I've came across, and nothing in this game, that I've found, teaches even how to mark mobs, or the agro meter that's by the party list.

For like 2 months, I didn't even notice that agro meter until someone told me about it.

Kinda off topic, but another thing I didn't realize was cleric stance was for more damage. I had that one backwards, nothing ingame taught that either. Seems like a lot of stuff isn't taught to us ingame..

Didn't older final fantasy games do a really good job explaning the battle mechanics and other aspects of the game? Wonder why ffxiv is missing so much to teach us.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

(and your off GCD abilities, assuming you don't have to save the silence for something and you aren't CCing any mobs)

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Yup. For example, in the case of Circle of Scorn, even if it doesn't do a lot of damage it surely adds some tiny bits of aggro that might be the difference between holding a target or losing it, sometimes.

I was thinking, could honestly put groups of 3-4 targets, let the game mark them so that it's easier to program NPC behavior, and give the tank a party to protect. If anyone dies, fail, and have the healer npc heal noone but the tank.

Yes, similar instances would be nice for all classes, but tanks need it the most. Carrying a bad dps through almost any instance is easy, but i'm tired of tanking on my scholar from healing agro. If i get dps'ing agro, I deserve it.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Yes, similar instances would be nice for all classes, but tanks need it the most. Carrying a bad dps through almost any instance is easy, but i'm tired of tanking on my scholar from healing agro. If i get dps'ing agro, I deserve it.

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But sometimes you can get healing aggro because you have to overheal because the tank has to do a lot of extra job, or even give his back to another mob, getting more damage, or change target priority for a second because a dps is doing whatever he/she wants, and the other one keeps doing full damage without giving the tank some space to breath and fix all the stuff thus losing aggro on one or more mobs (keep in mind that the GCD is what is it, and a tank can't do an infinite number of actions at any given time). What I mean is that aggro management is a must for everyone in the party, be it for the tank to keep an eye on all targets and mark them, for dps to not go crazy and be able to slow down a bit, or for healers to not spam Medica, for example. Everyone would benefit the same, as enmity management is a responsability of the whole group, and it's mechanics are all intertwined.

Speaking as a tank, I don't have a problem with some kind of tank training instance but they also need one to teach DPS to attack the marked targets and attack them in the proper order. The number of times I have lost aggro on a mob because a DPS decides to unleash on mob number 3 instead of mob number 1 is ridiculous. Fortunately I pull the aggro back almost immediately. There is a reason I place a big floating number above the mob's head.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

[Sometimes it's not the tank's fault. Agro management is a must for everyone]

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Yeah, everything you said (I truncated), is true. If fecal hits rotary, I have no problem if the tank loses agro, but if the tank flashes 0 or twice on a whole pull, that's simply not enough, and that is the tank's fault. And yeah, a good example is AK. If you're fighting a pack as a fresh tank, so not chainpulling, and a big guy comes into the group, everyone should switch to that unless something like at 20% hp. The big guys hp just melts and it has the most potential to kill the tank. Anyone that doesn't is Doing It Wrong.

Also, with good tanks at my level, I play Bane'ing scholar 33 (not cleric stanced lol). When I pull agro because of my dots, it's usually on one mob, not the whole pack, and there's not peep of complaint. The tank probably could have flashed again and held it all, but I don't expect a new tank to understand the power of "SCH-ummoner"

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

I spend a lot of time worrying that my level ~30 Gladiator skill is not that great. I stress over dungeon runs, and panic every time hate bounces or a mob goes after my mage. [snip]

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If you are stressing, and panicking, and worrying about maintaining aoe aggro, you are (or will be) a great tank. My toughest time tanking was at early cap because no primal decided I deserved a primal sword, despite well over 50 Ifrit and Garuda runs to try to get one. So this whole time I was running AK and WP often with +1 relic dps on my poor little green GC sword. I managed ok. Couldn't do speed runs, but managed to keep hate. I finally (after many many fail groups) ended up successfully tanking Titan HM with that little GC sword (though with full DL with a couple iLVL 90 pieces thrown in). Now, with a relic sword maintaining aoe aggro seems like a snap, given my many weeks of training.

Basically, the standard PLD way is pull with shield lob, flash, start your single target aggro combo on #1, sharing some with #2, flash again, do the same sharing some this time with #3, flash again, and by this time #1 is dead and keep on with the other two. This standard approach will alter some depending on whether you are with single target dps or with aoe dps.

Good luck!

As a WAR not a MRD...

Most of the time I can do a WP or AK without lossing hate more then 2-3 times in the run.
Other times I get a random WHM always WHM, that doesn't use there ability to cut hate and Sure enough they are pulling mobs off of me.

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Originally Posted by Jwrigh7784

Speaking as a tank, I don't have a problem with some kind of tank training instance but they also need one to teach DPS to attack the marked targets and attack them in the proper order. The number of times I have lost aggro on a mob because a DPS decides to unleash on mob number 3 instead of mob number 1 is ridiculous. Fortunately I pull the aggro back almost immediately. There is a reason I place a big floating number above the mob's head.

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I gave up putting numbers above mobs heads. Its as if the dps blantantly target the mob not marked just to troll the tank .

I think the main issue is that a good tank will try to save the idiot from dying , whereas if the tank and healer let the guy die he would soon learn ( hopefully ) . Of course if the repair costs were higher they would soon go broke and unable to afford to repair .

Anyways what I do is attack mob , when dps attack wrong one I will switch to that target . Basically I let the DPS choose the target which is wrong but what can you do right ? Sometimes you just gotta go with the flow just to get things done .

I don't understand what's so tough that some people don't get. I can afk half an instance as PLD and come back and still have threat on something... Tanking in the game is mind numbing compared to other games in the past...

I always thought of that. Like, have training hests that people can do solo and puts them in an instance alone for various objectives with the purpose of teaching them, complete with the npc announcements like in story quests to assist you on what to do. Like,

-AoE obstacle course (many types, some with boss simulations)
-Healing course (heal npcs so they dont die and can kill the monsters)
-Tanking course (take in all aggro so npcs can stay alive and can kill the monsters)
-DPS course (dps check with aoe obstacle course)
-et cetra

Put incentive for people to do this repeatedly. If class quests have you doing things you need to do in a party, it obviously does not happen often enough to hammer it in.

Too many people, like myself, don't read quest text and NPC dialogue is quite often flavor that I usually ignore it.

I got through the paladin quests because tanking is common sense to me and I was usually provoking off the NPCs even when I probably shouldn't have (tank npc's)

So yeah, people need to be slapped in the face with it. It took me about 30 seconds to figure out that flash is caster-based, unlike the level 30 paladins who have dragged poor groups through and not figured it out. I just never really had undue hate problems because it's just common sense.