I'm having trouble seeing what the second tank does that's so important in turn 5. Most Phase 2 approaches seem to eschew tank-swapping. Phase 3:L3 AOE LB. Phase 4 is always solo-tank. And in Phase 5, the OT's duty(eating eggs in neurolink) can be performed by anybody. It seems all the OT is doing is playing backup for when the MT dies...Planning for failure instead of planning for success. Isn't this a lesson we learned already in Titan? Wouldn't it be better to swap the OT for a 3rd healer so the MT doesn't die in the first place?
Which brings us to the real challenge...Phase 1. I'm not saying that the MT surviving until the trash is dead would be easy(even with 3 healers), but 1000characters.
Every video shows two tanks. These groups obviously know the fight very well and wouldn't be using a suboptimal strategy...so I assume I'm missing something important. What is it?
Is Twintania really a two tank fight?
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11-12-2013, 03:17 AMCryvilIs Twintania really a two tank fight?
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11-12-2013, 04:14 AMEmSix
The only part I'd say an off tank even helps on really is the Snake phase, aside from that they really do nothing but act like a mediocre DPS.
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11-12-2013, 04:40 AMZdenkaThere is one video where someone has used 1 tank and 5 DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
There's several reasons to use 2 tanks:
1. PLD is actually really awesome at bursting Conflag's.
2. PLD has the best stun set for DKs.
3. Steadier add's.
4. Mediocre DPS allows you to have a buffer to fail somewhat and still win... with 3 healer DPS can't fail at all, with the 13m enrage.
Basically it makes the fight more consistent to use a 2nd tank. Its not really that much more safe than having a DRG or MNK tank adds, but you'll be able to kill them more reliably and its a lot more survivable so that you won't see any DPS "tanks" getting auto-gibbed which effectively could waste 10 minutes in your DPS tank drops during Snakes.
I will disagree with you however, swapping the OT for another healer is even more useless than having the OT. The only reason you even need 2 healers in the fight is due to Conflag and DK mechanics otherwise this fight would be potentially able to complete with a single healer. It still might be anyways but would require just a tad of luck to never have the healer inside either of those mechanics ^^; -
11-12-2013, 10:47 AMCalvatEEverytime we've had a Warrior in DPS stance they've pulled out a good 50%+ more than a PLD does. And since when did it become about PLD vs WAR anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdenka
I don't think Twintania requires two tanks, but it's most definitely the safer route due to adds existing. -
11-12-2013, 12:10 PMMisakiSatomi
It just helps in the scourge and snake phase, that's just about it.
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11-12-2013, 12:34 PMZdenkaWe've never used a WAR off tank for the fight so I didn't want to presume to know what a WAR can do, the same why I specifically mention PLD for the stun. If that's true that its +50% that would mean WAR does the most damage to Conflagration out of all classes which is actually impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvatE
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11-12-2013, 01:23 PMCryvilThat sounds like so much fun...I'm putting the 1-1-6 Twintania run on my FF14 bucket list. If targetted by Conflag, couldn't the tank just hop on in? And if targetted by the DK stun, I would think the 6 DPS would have DK dead before Hallowed Ground wears off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdenka
Phase 5 sounds like a solo-healing nightmare though, with people eating eggs and liquid hell shots while the tank is playing punching bag for the boss. -
11-12-2013, 01:30 PMContemporary
We have a full DPS warrior (lodestone here) in our group and he offtanks just fine. His dps is constantly being parsed as relatively the same as a Bard using a song, and he is able to burst down conflags quite well. I actually prefer having a a PLD/WAR combo over double PLD. In my opinion, the two compliment each other as well as a WHM and SCH.
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11-12-2013, 01:44 PMCousinjimmy
There's RNG involved as always -- if you run one Tank there's a chance that he'll get targeted by Hatch multiple times in a row in the last phase. It is also easier with an off-tank to burn down Asp during snake phase when the small snakes are collapsed in during LB3. Our Plds parse about 120k on Twintania while Blm goes for about 220k in last week's win.
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11-12-2013, 02:53 PMZdenkaIts basically involves some form of luck to actually do it, if its even really possible. (If I suggested we even try I'd get yelled at so much). I am pretty confident if you manage to minimize damage inputs from the very start (Scourges) and the snakes phase you could 1 healer it down to at least the final phase and then get EXTREMELY lucky you might be able to pull it off. Its probably something to occupy some time when bored, at least to try ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
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11-12-2013, 03:11 PMCalvatEWe did a run with PLD and WAR in the same party for WP once. Our WAR and BRD raced for DPS on the Tonberry King and other bosses and the BRD got 215 and the WAR 185, Warriors can dish out some pretty great DPS (Although they'll always be behind DPS by a little), but only if you let them DPS :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Zdenka
We have our Warrior DPS'ing like everyone else and if the PLD goes down, he rushes in to buy us time to get the PLD back up and it works. It's kind of like having a DPS Tank Hybrid which is handy. -
11-12-2013, 03:45 PMMiaBellaDeath Sentence does too much damage, I don't think it would be possible with current gear. Even if a WHM could heal fast enough to get a tanks hp to full after every death sentence, I don't see how they would be able to sustain their MP for the duration of the fight especially past the conflag stage where there is no way to dodge death sentences. Ive honestly always thought that you could do this fight with 1 tank since the first time I went into the instance, but I don't see how you could do it with one healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
I personally still don't feel that it is ideal to only use one tank over using two however, as the second tank, especially a paladin brings in a lot of utility to the fight. They may not be doing as much DPS, but the fact that they can stun dread knights repeatedly on a GCD, cast stone skin, and offtank adds, and easily eat hatch even while standing in fire makes the fight go so much smoother. I don't personally see any reason for people to pass any of those things up unless they are just bored with the fight and want to see how far they can push it, or their DPS is too low to do the damage they need with only 4 fullblown DPS. -
11-13-2013, 02:30 PMChurchill
A properly geared DPS Paladin can easily top 220DPS(Actual) and that's before full 90 gear/DPS accessories, while still tanking his portion of the fight, stoneskinning, and stunning birds. Two tanks aren't needed because the adds are there for no reason other than someone thought the fight needed adds, but that doesn't mean that another class with a lot of utility isn't useful for other things. A Paladin/Paladin setup is also still going to be better until you can (safely) maintank with the Warrior and that's really only because Warrior seems to do a bit better damage with Defiance up vs. Paladin with Shield Oath up. This doesn't take into account the fact that a Paladin could also wear some DPS accessories while maintanking or full tank gear and use Sword Oath in which cases the Paladin would do more damage and still have more surviveability.
The videos I've seen of one tank looked overly complicated and were slower than 2 tank kills. -
11-16-2013, 04:21 AMKellanvedI've only been able to find Insurrection's 1-tank video and it didn't seem any different than how 2-tank groups do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchill
My FC's current comp is PLD PLD BRD BRD BLM DRG SCH WHM and we're having trouble consistently getting the quick conflags (4 stack) down. Our healers and tanks are really well geared, but our DPS hasn't been lucky with coils drops. In addition, our DRG only started coils this week.
I'm entertaining the thought of one of our PLDs going MNK instead since he's been hoarding all the useless MNK drops we've had (5) and he already has his +1. I think our other tank is more than capable and our heals are the best geared in the group so I don't think we would have any issues keeping DPS us if they happen to tank an add for a bit.
Regarding the reasons for 2 PLDs on the first page:
I think most of these were not directed at dropping a tank so much as they were at adding a healer. Are PLDs much better stunners than MNK? With 5 DPS, adds should die a bit faster. Popping CDs on the first Scourge would hopefully kill it fast enough that it only has time to do one Liquid Hell. Those are the only real issues for healers in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zdenka
Also, there was mention of 1-1-6 and the risk of the healer getting conflag but I was under the impression that the top 2 on threat would never get conflag. As WHM, I'm usually just ahead or just behind the off-tank on threat. -
11-16-2013, 09:27 AMZdenkaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kellanved
PLD can stun the DK 3 times, 6s -> 3s -> 1s for a total of 10s. MNK can only stun it once, for 4 seconds.
Its possible to have your MT stun the DK, but it causes a huge issue if you have any melee.
I know I am disregarding burn efficiencies etc, but PLD is the 2nd or 3rd best class at doing damage to conflags, a typical win will have conflag damage arranged at about this:
MNK: 23.5k
PLD: 20.5k
BLM: 16k
BRD1: 15.5k
BRD2: 15k
MT PLD: 3k (jump in strategy)
You might need to consider whom is actually in the conflag, but we have parsed burn conflags only and come with the same results with the OT PLD as the 2nd highest as well. The other class that should do awesome conflag damage is DRG, but it should still do less than MNK due to Greased Lightning. Again, we've never used WAR so I cannot comment on it, or SMN in this fight for that matter.
You maybe right about what those reasons are directed at but the basic truth of the matter is, if you use any set up other than 2tank/2healer/4dps you'll spend more time faceplanted on the ground than if you were using that configuration because it just is the best set up at eliminating some RNG that you'd have to deal with using a different set up. Consistency is the name of the game. -
11-16-2013, 12:17 PMKellanved
Nice, that's a lot of stunning for PLD.
Our parses are averaging something like this (DPS because this is over multiple attempts):
BLM: 20
BRD1: 15
BRD2: 15
DRG (new & undergeared): 13
PLD OT: 12
Our OT is doing decent DPS but he's in tank gear. He is about as geared as the MT though, and our MT has a geared MNK alt so that would bring our DPS on conflags up considerably and allow us to consistently get past conflags. -
11-16-2013, 09:01 PMcarraway
As long as you can fulfill the requirements of every mechanic in the fight, there's no reason not to try iterating with different compositions to see if it works better for your group.
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11-17-2013, 07:35 AMZdenkaYeah for sure. Here are some tips for your DRG:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellanved
-When the Fireball icon is about to dissapear before Conflaguration #2, pop Blood for Blood + Invigorate, this allows it to be ready for the 4th Conflaguration as well.
-Use Dragonfire Dive if a DPS is in Conflag 2 or 4.
-Use Powersurge before the Conflag is up for Jump
-IF you can time it right and not lower DPS too much, Life Surge with Full Thrust ready in combo for your first action.
DRG should be something like Full Thrust -> Jump -> Impulse Drive -> Leg Sweep -> Disembowel -> Dragonfire (if DPS) -> Heavy Thrust -> Mercy Stroke -> (Phlebotamize if its not dead)
Again with Life Surge, Blood For Blood, Invigorate, Power Surge popped before it actually appears. Hopefully this helps your DRG push out some more DPS on them! Also make sure to not use Spineshatter Jump, as it will place you into the conflag xD -
11-20-2013, 12:52 PMCryvil
I'm still not entirely convinced that two tanks is ideal, but this thread has certainly given me a lot to think about. Good damage on the conflags, better handling of the deathknights, a smoother phase 5 with a backup plan if the MT dies...all nice. But part of the reason I brought it up in the first place is because tanks are scarce and DPS are not. If you can't assemble a group in the first place, then it loses by default. Healers aren't so scarce...though my perspective is kind of skewed because I'm a scholar.
As far as solo-healing goes, and especially the question of how to keep your mana up, a lot of what a scholar does comes from free abilities. Then it becomes a question of whether everything else going on in the battle will kill the rest of the party. I have a few questions towards this end:
Do liquid hells come in even (predictable) intervals at phase 5?
Does a Paladin have the mana regeneration and time to prep stoneskin on himself once per death sentence?
Does DS vary between phases 2, 4, and 5?(Does the time between death sentences vary? Do they do more damage? Does Infirmity get stronger?)
What about her autoattacks and plummet? Do they vary between rounds? Does she stop attacking to spew liquid hells in phase 5?
(edit: Oh, reread the BG coloring book and seems the phase 4 one at least is delayed by Unwoven Will and Twister. So overall she puts out slower damage during phase 4? What about phase 5?)
If the MT jumps into a conflagration, what happens to the death sentence timing?
How strong is natural health regen?(if someone takes 1000 damage from liquid hell shots, how long will it take them to recover that if they don't use potions?)
DS, Plummet, and Divebomb are physical. Fireball, Aetheric Profusion, Hatch and Liquid Hell are magical. Correct? -
11-20-2013, 02:23 PMcarraway1. Liquid hells and eggs are on their own predictable timers but can overlap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryvil
2. A PLD can stoneskin him or herself at leisure for DS given that s/he isn't targeted by liquid hells. By that point in the fight, the enmity lead should be astronomical.
3. Death Sentence retains its timing across the entire fight but can be pushed further and further back as Twintania uses new/different abilities.
4. While shooting liquid hells, Twintania does not auto-attack, which offsets her rotation.
5. Twintania does not adjust her DS timing if the MT is inside a conflag. If the MT is targeted by a DS while inside a conflag, she will use it and it will whiff.
6. Natural health regen is very slow. I don't know the exact amount off the top of my head, but it's close to insignificant given the incoming damage in the last phase.
7. Not sure on the damage types, haven't tested personally (except for Plummet, Divebomb, and DS). -
11-20-2013, 03:36 PMEmSix
Divebombs are physical, and can be blocked by Manawall, preventing both the damage and knockback effect.
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11-21-2013, 02:36 AMCryvil
Thank you so much for the answers and, of course, the coloring book! I had one more big question:
Can my fairy intercept the eggs?