Ideas for jobs beyond whm/ healer?

I honestly cant think of any.

There are all these great tank/dps classes or jobs, but what about a healer?

A white mage becomes a super white mage?

I'm not entirely sure of the question here but I'll do my best. Conjurer becomes a white mage (both are healers). Arcanist becomes a Scholar (just the SCH is a healer). Jobs don't see identity progression, only classes do.

For other jobs to stem from current or new classes they could do a lot of things. Possible new healers from the series could be: Sage, Red Mage, Devout/Seer, Time Mage, Chemist, Blue Mage, Geomancer, Dancer, and Bishop off the top of my head. All of these classes have seen healing magic/abilities at least once in the past and could make it back in. Some I don't think should, such as RDM/GEO/BLU/TIM but it is still a possibility for SE to do.

I honestly don't see the Geomancer or the Red Mage as possible healers. Especially not Red Mage, since that's always been a magical fighter class.

Sage, Seer, Oracle, and Chemist seem like reasonable classes that could fill the healer roll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

I honestly don't see the Geomancer or the Red Mage as possible healers. Especially not Red Mage, since that's always been a magical fighter class.

Sage, Seer, Oracle, and Chemist seem like reasonable classes that could fill the healer roll.

---

Geomancer is always a possibility for a healer since it *has* always had at least one "heal" as part of its Geomancy repertoire. A lot of it depends upon what they base Geomancer off of. A Geomancer grown out of CNJ is most definitely *not* going to be a healer and is, in my opinion, most likely going to be a CNJ DPS class. A Geomancer grown out something like MAR (in Tactics, they used Swords/Axes and were a balanced physical class) would also be a DPS class (in that case, they would likely have "support" as their secondary role and utilitize Geomancy in the same way that BRDs use their job abilities). A Geomancer grown out of THM could be a possibility for a healer, though the fundamental THM mechanics would present some design problems since you can't really have a healer that uses the burn/regen phase set up that THM uses (it would most likely have to completely repurpose Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, likely into something that changes the secondary/bonus effects of it heals between shields and HoTs, and repurposes some other aspects of the class to boot). I'll agree that it's not *likely* to see Geomancer as a healer, but it's not outside the realm of possibilities; I find it much more likely that it'll be a DPS unless its given an entirely new class to be grown out of, which I'm not entirely sure is going to happen.

Sage isn't likely to crop up since we've got scholar and the two are often conflated as the same class, specializing in casting bother white and black magic while being a full blown caster. SCH's schtick has regularly been some variation on "Scan", which we didn't get in this game (for good reasons, honestly, since I don't really see if being of any real use), so I doubt they'll add Sage since, really, it would be the same thing.

Chemist is also unlikely since we've got Alchemist as a DoH class. There are Chemist-healers in the game as NPCs, but I'm pretty confident that they really just have renamed CNJ/SCH heals and were only given them to avoid being completely and utterly useless as helper-NPCs. On top of that, Chemist always used consumables as its mechanic and the devs have outright stated that they don't want any classes based upon consumables in ARR.

Seer and Oracle are both wonky since they don't really have much to define them yet so they're really kind of wildcard-ish. The only game where Seer isn't simply an upgraded WHM (FFT:A2) has them existing as a weird BLM/WHM fusion class with some personal resource utility that only gets access to higher level magic (and, even then, mooches it from other classes). Oracle only exists as either a magic roulette class (abilities with a random spell list) in the remakes of FFV or a debuff specialist in FFT that required WHM to unlock it. Both of suggest some degree of White Magitude but neither really has a particularly strong presence in the FF series. If they were brought in, I expect them to be based off of a completely new class that provides some alternate healing schtick, likely a support/healer akin to SCH.

The most likely new healer, in my opinion, is dancer: it has a strong presence in the FF series, a well known skillset based around providing team support rather than outright damage, and has an easily accessed gimmick in being a TP/MP resource-fusion healer grown out of a DoW class (likely Thief, as I see it though ARC is a possibility if they could get around the problems of ARC not having anything that could really be repurposed as a heal).

Part of the problem with coming up with new healers is really identifying a new mechanical niche for them to fill: if they try to fill a niche that's already taken by an existing healer, you have to ask yourself why bother unless it's sufficiently different in some other way that isn't just thematic/aesthetic (like a completely different resource model akin to my TP/MP idea for DNC). WHM already covers most of the "HoT-healer" archetype and SCH covers both "shield-healer" and "pet-healer". Some of the only other major healer remaining archetypes that I can think of are the "puddle-healer" (throws down persistent ground effects that provide healing; the most likely implementation for Geomancer-as-healer) and the "aura-healer" (creates persistent/long term area effects around the caster or target that move with them; DNC could possibly use this but I'm not fond of the idea) since straight up direct healing is something that all healers have as baseline functionality. Another *possible* archetype would be the "retributive healer" that provides buffs that heal the target whenever they take damage with multiple charges or medium length durations though this creates problems in healing anyone that isn't a tank so they'd likely just have to rely upon a generic AoE heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Seer and Oracle are both wonky since they don't really have much to define them yet so they're really kind of wildcard-ish.

---

Quote:

---

• The Secrets of Eorzea (SOE) :
The scholar was a great surprise for the community. This is an unusual job in different games because it appears as if it does not always have the same special ability. While some expected a hybrid white mage / black mage with its own ability (as in FFXI), how did you come to turn it into a pet job specialized in buff / heal?

• Naoki Yoshida (NY):
Until last December, we were not sure what would be the next job to be added but, we knew we needed a second healer because one was clearly not enough.

We talked on the subject of the class system, about the Summoner, a pet class system and were looking for something attractive and not too strange to be using healing abilities. So we kept this idea and thought that the scholar might work this way. The idea quickly caught on and was accepted without too much trouble. That is how the scholar has acquired healing abilities and a pet.

---

The important thing to take away from this is that the Scholar is also kinda in that nebulous area where they really don't have anything that defines them. Square Enix took that and ran with it, turning them into a healer. Seer and Oracle could very likely be healer jobs because they don't have anything that does not already define them as something else (and for the record, my hopes are on Geomancer being the Conjurer's DD job, which is why I don't consider them a candidate for the next healing class/job).

I think a seer, specifically seed seer would make sense. They are in the game, though who knows how they'll be able to use them in game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

I think a seer, specifically seed seer would make sense. They are in the game, though who knows how they'll be able to use them in game.

---

Seed Seer is a title of office in Gridania, not a job. They're all Padjal, so they're conjurers/white mages.

I think one thing that might help the amount of DPS versus tanks and healers, would be to give every DPS a second job which allows them to use that for leveling if they need to, much like how Arcanist has Scholar. I've thought of two, for THM and ARC.

1: Dark Priest. This class would be a callback to the old Thaumaturge of 1.0's release, having an array of skills deal with the astral and umbral. It's main heal would be Sacrifice, which costs some of the caster's MP in exchange for doing a heal that also comes with a regen effect, as well as a buff that allows the tank to heal themselves by dealing damage. The core themes would be using death and pain to sustain the party.

2: Performer. While Bard focuses on playing their instrument to empower the party, the performer takes their art in another direction, using song and dance as the somatic components of healing magic. Based on Dancer of FFXI, this would be a healer that uses TP instead of MP. Their main advantage would be longevity, as TP continuously regenerates throughout battle, although their downside would be that they are less capable of doing heavy healing for a short amount of time (No equivalent of spamming Cure II or Adloquiom)

It's my impression that Pugilist and Lancer would be better off having tanks as their secondaries, which would bring us up to 4 tank options and 4 healer options. While these classes weren't designed to be a healer from the start, and thus lack a low level heal, hopefully folks doing low level content with these make sure to set Cure or Physick so they can aid in the earlier dungeons as well. Also, I'm fully aware the names could stand to be more "FF", possibly finding a job from another game that will fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Urthdigger

While these classes weren't designed to be a healer from the start, and thus lack a low level heal, hopefully folks doing low level content with these make sure to set Cure or Physick so they can aid in the earlier dungeons as well. Also, I'm fully aware the names could stand to be more "FF", possibly finding a job from another game that will fit.

---

No class or job should have to rely on cross-class abilities in order to do it's job. Everything a class/job needs to perform its role should be built into the class itself. Cross-class abilities should be helpful, but not critical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

No class or job should have to rely on cross-class abilities in order to do it's job. Everything a class/job needs to perform its role should be built into the class itself. Cross-class abilities should be helpful, but not critical.

---

The devs have already said that they actually expect some degree of baseline functionality for a class to be drawn from their additional skills list. They outright said that WARs are intended to draw heavily from their additional skill list to augment their terrible local CD suite and they're forced to sacrifice a slot to Provoke for all of those fights that require tank swapping. As long as the ability comes from the first 15 levels of the prereq secondary class, the devs can easily plan on having some capabilities drawn from the additional skill list.

Provoke is 22. But really besides the point entirely.
No Tank NEEDS Provoke. Just like no White Mage NEEDS Swiftcast. The thing is, it's WORTH that slot. When stuff goes sideways, those 20-something levels you ground out to get this skill suddenly become trivial compared to how much use you get.

I recently did 26 MRD levels for Mercy Blade for my GLA, as soon as I used it though I realized that it wasn't worth the effort. I've never felt the same on MRD all those times I hit Provoke and pulled something off a healer.

As for Geomancer. I posted this idea in another thread, but wouldn't mind some constructive crits on it.

Geomancer – Proactive/offensive healer: Base Class of Conjurer with sub classes of Archer and thm
Concept: Uses proactive Shield type heals with a heavy use of Stone Skin. Designed with heavy use of Cleric stance. In order to heal without MND, the heals have to be shield based and scale with the targets own defense/hp. As long as you can stay ahead of the damage they are quite powerful, but recovering once you fall behind is much harder.
Overgrowth – Direct Damage attack that heals nearby players for amount proportional to the damage dealt.
Touch of Stone – DOT on enemy, attacks made against the enemy has a chance to refresh Stoneskin or Earthen Blood (but not at the same time).
Avalanche: Self buff that temporarily increases Damage and Spell speed with each Stoneskin, Earthen Blood, Stone, Stone II, Touch of Stone,or Overgrowth cast. Stacks up to 5 times, casting any spell besides a spell on this list will cancel the effect immediately. Lasts until canceled. Cooldown. (note: by design, canceling cleric stance will cancel avalanche)
Body of Earth: Party wide effect. Decreases the damage done by the next hit by 80%, inflicts HEAVY on the party while in effect.
Earthen Blood: increases the hp of a party member by 25% in the form of a shield (damage done to the shield cannot be healed except by Touch of Stone procs). Earthen blood shield is affected by damage only after stone skin has been destroyed

I am realizing that it needs some kind of AE offense though. Maybe a persistant ground effect?

I know this is off the OP's topic but I had to add it.

If you ask me, I see potential for a DD job as CNJ's second job. They have elemental magic already. There are 2 "top" tier magics in game with BLM, those being Flare and Freeze. There are 6 in total throughout other FF games, Flare, Freeze, Burst, Flood, Tornado and Quake.

Obviously Burst would fall into BLM whenever the level cap increase comes or they just opt to add new skills. But what about the last 3 Flood, Tornado, and Quake? Those 3 are the based off the elemental magics of CNJ. So there is a base already for it to expand into greater damage dealing magic for a new CNJ class.

As for another healer job? One option is they do something not based off a previous FF job? Where would it branch though? Currently for the mages, ACN has SCH and CNJ has WHM. THM just seems hard to transform into a healer unless it's some sort of HP draining/sacrifice setup. If all else fails I guess, add RDM off of GLA or new class and make it support healing. Give it a heal relative to Cure1 and Physick with actual DPS skills. Or maybe a on/off switch like Cleric Stance that lets it fight or heal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzain

Provoke is 22. But really besides the point entirely.
No Tank NEEDS Provoke. Just like no White Mage NEEDS Swiftcast. The thing is, it's WORTH that slot. When stuff goes sideways, those 20-something levels you ground out to get this skill suddenly become trivial compared to how much use you get.

---

I'd like to see Turn 2 done without provoke. Its nice to have before that fight but during, its pretty much required for tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzain

No Tank NEEDS Provoke. Just like no White Mage NEEDS Swiftcast.

---

There's a pretty big difference between Swiftcast and Provoke. Swiftcast is nice because it lets you actually cast Raise/Resurrection or Summon while in combat without stopping you from healing or moving for 10 seconds. Fights like ADS in coil turn 2 where you have to tank swap on regular basis and with a relatively narrow window (the debuff runs off right as the other tank gets 3-4 stacks and, if the other tank gets to 5-6, they're pretty much dead) or any fight where you think a tank might die and you *don't* want it to just be a wipe requires Provoke, for all intents and purposes. Sure, if you have 2 tanks that are equally geared and cooperate *insanely* well, you could do it without Provoke, but you best hope that your DPS are *really* good at managing their enmity since both tanks are going to have to play a delicate game of "don't steal aggro too soon while staying close enough to take over quickly when it's needed", which is pretty much a guarantee that the tanks are throttling their enmity.

Provoke might not be *required* for all fights (I don't even think about packing it for anything except for Binding Coil and Titan), but there are some that it *is* effectively required for. Not having it would be like trying to do Caduceus without any CDs at all: sure, it *can* be done, but it's pretty obvious that the devs don't intend for it to be done that way.

Options for new healers? Well, let's look at them in order of which classes I see as targets for the healer treatment:

Chemist -- Healer in many, many games. Very obvious option which has been suggested over 9000 times. Would almost certainly require a new class, however, due to needing a complete set of potion-making mechanics. Fortunately, second jobs are exceedingly easy to come by with that sort of design.
White Monk -- Healer for the Bangaa race in FFTA/2. Could be a second job for Pugilist, repurposing the Fists abilities. If not that, then you can be assured that White Monk won't make an appearance.
Oracle/Mystic -- Healing abilities in most appearances (Banon, FF5 port). That's never really the point of the job, but it's no less possible than Scholar as fairy-summoning healer. Could come from any caster, which would have to be Thaumaturge at this point or some future caster. I don't know how you'd implement a Thaumaturge healer, though. Would have to tie healing rate to Transpose use, which is a bit fuzzy with current 10s CD on Transpose.
Devout/Seer -- Sometimes a superior white mage, Seer has become a status protection mage in more recent entries. This could be a healer's schtick and all, but doing so wouldn't make much sense without an entirely new class dedicated to it. Might be a bit odd to call something Seer with Gridanian storyline involving Conjurerers.

With some liberties, you could also do these:

Puppetmaster -- Healing abilities in FF4: After Years, FF11. Could come from any class. Would be a bit lame to have two pet healers, though.
Dancer -- Has had many a healing dance in its day, but is never a healer, per se. Could come from any lightly-armored character, which is just Pugilist or Archer at this point but could be other future classes as well. Yeah, I've now made two suggestions of PGL healer, so sue me.
Machinist -- Healing ability in FFTA/2, but it's a bit of a stretch.

I have omitted a few options for various reasons. Bishop is just a white mage in different clothing rather than a unique design. I thought Mediator/Orator would be a cool one with Musketeer, but it has no history of healing abilities. Sage carries great healing prowess, but isn't much of a Sage without the other side of the coin. Red Mage is like Sage, except that it also has melee abilities, which makes it a pretty terrible candidate in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kura_Gari

THM just seems hard to transform into a healer unless it's some sort of HP draining/sacrifice setup.

---

I've already stated that I really don't think RDM should be a healer, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would lose their minds if it was stuck as one, but THM deserves a special mention here. I really don't think THM could realistically become a healer without making major changes to the way Astral Fire and Umbral Ice work. Because if Square Enix were to just give THM some healing spells, there would probably be no reason to bring in ANY other healer. One quick cast of Blizzard 1 to refresh the timer on Umbral Ice and you have a healer with pretty much infinite MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamemako

White Monk -- Healer for the Bangaa race in FFTA/2. Could be a second job for Pugilist, repurposing the Fists abilities. If not that, then you can be assured that White Monk won't make an appearance.

---

I'm not a fan of sticking the healer into melee range.

Quote:

---

Puppetmaster -- Healing abilities in FF4: After Years, FF11. Could come from any class. Would be a bit lame to have two pet healers, though.

---

Once again you have that "healer in melee range" problem, because of the master goes down, the automaton goes down with it. Even if you somehow justified giving the master some healing powers as well (because nobody wants all of a class's healing potential in the hands of the summoned mammet's lacking AI), the concept steps on the toes of the Scholar, who is already the healer with the healer pet.

Quote:

---

Dancer -- Has had many a healing dance in its day, but is never a healer, per se. Could come from any lightly-armored character, which is just Pugilist or Archer at this point but could be other future classes as well. Yeah, I've now made two suggestions of PGL healer, so sue me.

---

My thoughts on Dancer can be seen here.

Quote:

---

Machinist -- Healing ability in FFTA/2, but it's a bit of a stretch.

---

Chemist would be a better potential healer, IMO. Could have it coming from Musketeer or something (but that's secondary to bringing Corsair back).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tang

I'd like to see Turn 2 done without provoke. Its nice to have before that fight but during, its pretty much required for tanks.

---

You're right. It would be crazy hard and require pinpoint precision and coordination between the agro levels, and to say nothing of the issues that such agro management would have on DPS since they'd likely have to hold back significantly. Which goes right back to my point.

"It's WORTH that slot".

Sorry if that got missed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzain

Which goes right back to my point.

---

It's worth the slot because the devs essentially designed the content around having that slot occupied by that ability. You're using "required" in the most semantically strict form: it *must* be equipped lest the fight be impossible without it. We're using it in the practical sense: it *must* be equipped else you're not likely to ever do the content (and/or the devs expect you to have it). Example: you're not explicitly *required* to stay under the speed limit because you *can* just ignore it, but you're practically required because, if you don't you're going to get a ticket.

Using your definition, it's not *required* to wear any armor during Titan, but most people would say that it's required anyway because of practical considerations. Most people would say that you're *required* to have your relic and be in at least majority DL to do Coil because it is in any practical sense of the term. WARs don't *have* to get Featherfoot, Convalescence, and Internal Release, but it's pretty obvious that the devs think it's required because that's half of the WAR CD suite right there along with the 2 strongest CDs they've got. It's not "required" to have a tank when doing dungeons, you don't see loads of runs with 3 DPS using either a DRG or a Titan-egi instead of an actual tank and, even then, only when they hugely overgear it. Hell, WARs and PLDs aren't even *required* to run around in their tank stances, and you're not *required* to have a job in order to do end game content.

There's a vast gulf between practical requirements and explicit requirements. The devs haven't really placed *that many* practical requirements on the players that aren't just fundamental requirements of the baseline game itself. They have, however, included a great many practical requirements because, while they'll let you hamstring yourself, they have a certain expectation of performance that you're not going to meet without fulfilling them.

[QUOTE=Kitru;1552830]snip[QUOTE]

Exactly. Now we're on the same page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kura_Gari

I know this is off the OP's topic but I had to add it.

If you ask me, I see potential for a DD job as CNJ's second job. They have elemental magic already. There are 2 "top" tier magics in game with BLM, those being Flare and Freeze. There are 6 in total throughout other FF games, Flare, Freeze, Burst, Flood, Tornado and Quake.

---

I know I can't be 100% sure about this until level-cap is raised, but I'm willing to bet money that the 'Ancient Magics' all 6 elements, will be Black Mages to cast. That yes, while THM only naturally has access to the Fire/Ice/Thunder chains, that within the BLM's whole bag of tricks they will gain the other 3 Ancient Magics. (Afterall, THM can't actually cast Flare or Freeze, only BLM can) So my assumption is that, 'Ancient Magic', ALL Ancient Magic, is what is 'special' about Black Mages.

Case in point: White Mage didn't get Quake as their big DD spell...they got 'Holy'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

I know I can't be 100% sure about this until level-cap is raised, but I'm willing to bet money that the 'Ancient Magics' all 6 elements, will be Black Mages to cast. That yes, while THM only naturally has access to the Fire/Ice/Thunder chains, that within the BLM's whole bag of tricks they will gain the other 3 Ancient Magics. (Afterall, THM can't actually cast Flare or Freeze, only BLM can) So my assumption is that, 'Ancient Magic', ALL Ancient Magic, is what is 'special' about Black Mages.

Case in point: White Mage didn't get Quake as their big DD spell...they got 'Holy'

---

Quake, Tornado, and Flood should be given to whatever DD jobs gets attached to CNJ (likely Geomancer). Yeah, Black Mages have Ancient Magic, but their expertise is now in the Fire, Ice, and Lightning spells. Leave the Earth, Wind, and Water spells to the Conjurer, since that's their domain.

Pugilist -> Dancer
Fists of Water, kind of like drain samba, heals people that hit the enemy
fists of Lightning, TP drain for people that hit the enemy
and go from there, but I would be highly upset if they introduced dancer without the disarm ability "Drop it Like it's Hot"

Any new job they add it seems will need to have a different Primary stat than the already existing job, so archer branching into another ranged DD I don't see happening since it would rely on dex.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

...but THM deserves a special mention here. I really don't think THM could realistically become a healer without making major changes to the way Astral Fire and Umbral Ice work. Because if Square Enix were to just give THM some healing spells, there would probably be no reason to bring in ANY other healer. One quick cast of Blizzard 1 to refresh the timer on Umbral Ice and you have a healer with pretty much infinite MP.

---

...but limited burst healing duration. It's not the infinite MP that makes a THM healer hard to balance. There are songs and potions for that in any encounter of sufficient length (there aren't many), and either healer will already last pretty much indefinitely against opponents who aren't making you burn your healnukes (CureII, Adloquium) or AoE (Succor, Medica/2, CureIII). The tough part is balancing your burst resource (AF MP) without gimping your healer against tough opponents. It would be easy to run out of MP and need to fall back into UI when your tank is getting hammered. You'd also have to contend with the long cooldown on Transpose as well as the need for non-damage AF/UI procs. A lot of abilities would go into that, and I don't really see much you can hijack in the class skill set to fill out the abilities needed to become an effective healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

I'm not a fan of sticking the healer into melee range.

---

I don't see a whole lot of reason to avoid shorter-range healers. Titan doesn't really care where you're standing; Tumults hit you just the same. Most random-target effects are long-range. Only potential issues you'd ever run into are instant PBAoE like Batraal's Grim Halo, which would really just reduce DPS potential when not healing. Going through dungeons in my head, that's really the only major example of an instant PBAoE attack which would put a melee healer in any danger, and that can be addressed by not doing DPS -- that opponent isn't giving you a whole lot of free time to DPS in the first place with how much it can burst on your tank.

Now, if you're thinking that it would all be touch-range heals, then I can agree that it would be a total failure. Cone/column attacks would gib any such design in an instant. That's not how you'd design it, of course. Heals have to be ranged, but the the rest of the job needn't be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Once again you have that "healer in melee range" problem, because of the master goes down, the automaton goes down with it.

---

Nothing says a puppetmaster has to be melee. Could be a musketeer job. You could just as well consider Lulu a puppetmaster-mage -- take that setup and run with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

the concept steps on the toes of the Scholar, who is already the healer with the healer pet.

---

...which I already said. No pet will ever compare to the master; it's bad design. The closest opportunity to a pet-heavy job was DoT-focused Summoner, where time could be afforded to res without completely crushing DPS. That didn't happen, so every pet job will be two-thirds player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Chemist would be a better potential healer, IMO. Could have it coming from Musketeer or something (but that's secondary to bringing Corsair back).

---

None of this is relevant. Unless ARR falls apart and subs abandon ship en masse, there will be more than 1 new healer coming, and Corsair is not a healer (nor is it really anything other than another name for the generic Gunner job).

//EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Any new job they add it seems will need to have a different Primary stat than the already existing job, so archer branching into another ranged DD I don't see happening since it would rely on dex.

---

While it is unfortunate that you'd have only one given stat selection with one DPS and one support job from a class, I don't see it as particularly viable to enforce stat changes. That would effectively demand that all classes have DPS/support as one job and tank or healer as the other. ARC and THM can't tank, so they'd have to heal. CNJ can't tank, so it would have to DPS. LNC would obviously tank. The dearth of tanks would force a PGL tank -- that would give 4 tanks, 4 healers, and 8 DPS (BLM, SMN, BRD, MNK, DRG, CNJ2, GLA2, MRD2). DPS/support are generally pretty easy to make, but you'd be doing some serious shoehorning to meet that design requirement. ARC healer and PGL tank would be a total mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So my assumption is that, 'Ancient Magic', ALL Ancient Magic, is what is 'special' about Black Mages.

---

The only constant for BLM has been Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard. The Wind, Earth, and Water spells tend to be wild cards. Given that BLM doesn't have *any* Wind, Earth, or Water spells at all and CNJ *does*, I expect that, if they *were* to add Flood, Quake, or Tornado, it would be given to a CNJ DPS job (i.e. Geomancer) rather than BLM.

Quote:

---

Case in point: White Mage didn't get Quake as their big DD spell...they got 'Holy'

---

WHM != CNJ. WHM got Holy because Holy has *always* been the WHM token nuke. Giving them any attack *except* for Holy would just be absurd.

While it is unfortunate that you'd have only one given stat selection with one DPS and one support job from a class, I don't see it as particularly viable to enforce stat changes. That would effectively demand that all classes have DPS/support as one job and tank or healer as the other. ARC and THM can't tank, so they'd have to heal. CNJ can't tank, so it would have to DPS. LNC would obviously tank. The dearth of tanks would force a PGL tank(BLM, SMN, BRD, MNK, DRG, CNJ2, GLA2, MRD2). ARC healer and PGL tank would be a total mess.[/QUOTE]
Don't say anything is impossible, conjurer to geomancer could tank, just give their level 30 ability a buff like warcraft did with druids and bearform, only call it strength of the earth, or some other hippy nonsense, increasing their defense and Vit by a certain multiplier or something, monk into dancer could be a healer, or monk into puppetmaster, give the puppet only ranged weapons, and since the puppet gets stats from master, dex could be viable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Don't say anything is impossible, conjurer to geomancer could tank, just give their level 30 ability a buff like warcraft did with druids and bearform, only call it strength of the earth, or some other hippy nonsense, increasing their defense and Vit by a certain multiplier or something

---

That's not a geomancer, that's a shapeshifter. There are a few shapeshifters in the FF series, like Morpher in FFTA and Vincent's LB in FF7. If you're going shapeshifter from CNJ, though, you've completely thrown out the class and every ability within it. It's possible, but it's not really something you couldn't do with any class. Give any generic excuse to change forms, leave everything behind, call it a "job". Worse, the WoW copypasta would be palpable. Just add Templar as holy-warrior tank for Lancer and you'd have all WoW tanks represented in ARR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

monk into dancer could be a healer

---

Many ways to make PGL into a healer. I pointed out White Monk as one. That's not really such a problem, it's the jobs which don't lend themselves to alternatives. ARC is a terrible healer and terrible tank both. You could try an alternative transformation into PIE as a support job, but you've already got BRD for support -- you'd end up with two support jobs in one class and no alternative.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

or monk into puppetmaster, give the puppet only ranged weapons, and since the puppet gets stats from master, dex could be viable.

---

That wouldn't work. As I said already, pets will never overtake the master, and your PGL is still getting damage out of punching. You could put points into DEX, but you'd be better off sticking with the class stat of STR.

I didn't say they would shapeshift, I said give them a buff, and the buff work like the buff granted while in bear form, then have other geomancy abilities, tree hugging and what not. I wouldn't go so far and say there is anything SE will or won't do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamemako

Many ways to make PGL into a healer.

---

I am *seriously* curious as to how you'd do this, given the fact that PGL has absolutely *nothing* to do with healing beyond a self heal and an AoE healing buff. It doesn't even have anything, including fundamental mechanics, that could be converted into support/healing capability without completely and utterly changing the entirety of it (including name and likely resource consumed).

It doesn't help that the healing job that you're suggesting, White Monk, is just what FFTA and FFTA2 call what every other FF games just calls "Monk". PGL into healer makes absolutely *no* sense. Monk/unarmed fighters in the FF games get nowhere *near* being healers. Some of them get minor healing support capabilities (Monks get Chakra and Revive in the FFT games; Sabin gets Sacrifice and Chakra; Amarant gets Aura, Chakra, and Revive) but a vast majority of Monks are just straight up unarmed damage dealers.

Trying to turn a PGL into a healer is just ludicrous on the face of it, from both a historical perspective as well as a mechanical one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Quake, Tornado, and Flood should be given to whatever DD jobs gets attached to CNJ (likely Geomancer). Yeah, Black Mages have Ancient Magic, but their expertise is now in the Fire, Ice, and Lightning spells. Leave the Earth, Wind, and Water spells to the Conjurer, since that's their domain.

---

All I am saying is this:

If Black Mage is really getting 'Ancient Magic's and that's what set's it apart, then it very well might get all 6 Ancient Magic Spells. Otherwise, you just end up with a Flare II/Freeze II/etc chain happening and that seems kinda bland.

I can see how a DD Mage stemming from CNJ would also make sense to have these spells...but as BLM is supposed to be the 'spike DD' Mage, it is hard to give traditionally Spike DD spells to another mage and expect both jobs to remain viable within the game.

Example:
WHM and SCH are both healers, but they heal very differently, WHM being a Spike Curer and SCH being more subtle/defensive in curing.

So if CNJ gets an DD mage, that DD mage is likely NOT a DoT/Debuff mage (ACN/SMN has that role) nor would it likely be a Spike Damage DD Mage. So it'd have to be something different, Time Mage, Reflective Mage, Skill boosting Mage...due to this, I just see it less likely that if the remaining 4 Ancient Magics make it in game, they belong to any role other than BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The only constant for BLM has been Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard. The Wind, Earth, and Water spells tend to be wild cards. Given that BLM doesn't have *any* Wind, Earth, or Water spells at all and CNJ *does*, I expect that, if they *were* to add Flood, Quake, or Tornado, it would be given to a CNJ DPS job (i.e. Geomancer) rather than BLM.

WHM != CNJ. WHM got Holy because Holy has *always* been the WHM token nuke. Giving them any attack *except* for Holy would just be absurd.

---

I KNOW WHM traditionally gets Holy...but it also traditionally by your logic can have either Aero or Stone spells...but really, that wasn't my point. My point was they DID give it its 'Iconic Spell' and NOT the Big DD spells that matched it's classes nukes. That instead of giving it Quake, Tornado, Flood which would have matched the Stone/Aero/Water spells CNJ naturally gave them, they instead went with the more Iconic WHM spell of Holy.

You keep assuming that because CNJ has the Stone/Air/Water Spells it HAS to have the DD Mage that would learn their AM equalivants. I'm pointing out that is not necessarily the case. Lastly, each 'job' storyline is basically finished at level 50....so when level cap is raised, it'll be interesting to see how they expand the current jobs/classes and their stories, let alone speculate about what potential jobs are down the road.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

I can see how a DD Mage stemming from CNJ would also make sense to have these spells...but as BLM is supposed to be the 'spike DD' Mage, it is hard to give traditionally Spike DD spells to another mage and expect both jobs to remain viable within the game.

---

You're operating under the assumption that they'd be big spikes. Freeze most definitely isn't: it's only potency 20. They've already deviated from the traditional mold of the "Ancient Magicks as big spikes".

Furthermore, the BLM schtick is not "spike damage dealer caster". The BLM schtick is the resource management: BLM is all about Umbral Ice, Astral Fire, and the waxing and waning of your mp pool governing what attacks you're using and how much damage they do. On top of all of this, the 3 abilities that a CNJ DPS job would be using as their baseline start (Stone II, Aero, Aero II) already prevent it from playing like a BLM: BLM has a single DoT with a regularish reapplication time frame; Aero lasts 18 seconds and Aero II lasts 12 seconds, so there is existing conflict in maintaining their DoTs while also bringing more DoT focus into play than BLM has.

Quote:

---

I KNOW WHM traditionally gets Holy...but it also traditionally by your logic can have either Aero or Stone spells...but really, that wasn't my point.

---

It's not my logic that gives WHM Aero and Stone. It's the game's own logic. CNJ needed some damage spells so that it could solo and they based it off of the druid archetype so it got Aero, Fluid Aura, and Stone because those are the "natural" damage spells that are iconic within the game that hadn't already been taken by other classes.

Quote:

---

That instead of giving it Quake, Tornado, Flood which would have matched the Stone/Aero/Water spells CNJ naturally gave them, they instead went with the more Iconic WHM spell of Holy.

---

Once again, I'll reiterate, CNJ != WHM. WHM provides Holy because it's *WHM providing the spell*. WHM does not have anything to do with Aero, Stone, or Water. CNJ, on the other hand, *does*. If there were a nuke provided by CNJ, I fully expect that it would have been Tornado, Flood, or Quake because those 3 elements are part of the CNJ's schtick.

Quote:

---

You keep assuming that because CNJ has the Stone/Air/Water Spells it HAS to have the DD Mage that would learn their AM equalivants. I'm pointing out that is not necessarily the case.

---

I'm not saying that it *has* to be a DPS CNJ job that gets the 3 nontraditional Ancient Magicks. Hell, most of the FF games don't even *have* most of the Ancient Magicks you listed: they're satisfied with Flare, Meteor, and Ultima as the uber-spells (and we're not getting Ultima or Meteor since those are lore locked, a one also happens to be a limit break). If they *were* added, I would expect them to be added as part of a CNJ DPS class because no other existing class has the "prereq" spells that would make it so that those spells actually make sense, and I doubt that a different class's job would get access to them because the devs aren't likely to double up classes that get certain spells.

If anything, I expect that, if they extend the level range, that BLM will get a Thunder epic (an AoE that applies the Thunder DoT with a 12 sec duration to everything nearby) and maybe some weakened regular use version of Meteor (like Meteo) and Ultima. As for new abilities that aren't attached to jobs as levels increase, I don't really see the need for actual attacks rather than CDs and utilities. I could see them getting something like Doom, which would act as a DoT rather than an outright death spell, but, since they already have a fully fleshed out rotation and it's not as if there are different talent trees to be reworked, you don't need to add new major abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

No class or job should have to rely on cross-class abilities in order to do it's job. Everything a class/job needs to perform its role should be built into the class itself. Cross-class abilities should be helpful, but not critical.

---

Much like Scholar, these classes would get a heal as their first job ability, allowing them to heal without requiring cure/physick. However, since this idea was designed to give a couple pure DPS classes a healing option they can level with, the fact remains that if they do a lower level dungeon as their job, they will only have their DPS abilities. Thus, in those cases they will need to cross-class. Given that conjurer or arcanist will likely be required at 15 for these jobs, one would already have the jobs leveled, so needing to set the ability for low level content isn't really an issue.

How about an elementalist ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

I am *seriously* curious as to how you'd do this, given the fact that PGL has absolutely *nothing* to do with healing beyond a self heal and an AoE healing buff. It doesn't even have anything, including fundamental mechanics, that could be converted into support/healing capability without completely and utterly changing the entirety of it (including name and likely resource consumed).

---

Unlike every other non-healing class, PGL mechanics are easily hijacked. Inner Release necessarily affects healing, as does Mantra. Fists of Earth/Wind can easily be used to affect new healing ability, offering instant stand-ins for burst healing ability and utility. Compared to every other existing class, you have a hell of a leg up: LNC, ARC, and MRD have absolutely nothing at all which affects healing or could be used; GLA has nothing but an MP-regen attack; and THM has a mechanic that could be hijacked but no ability slots to use with it (main issue would be putting AoE, burst heal, and swapping mechanics in at level 30 -- can make level 30 ability both baseline heal and heal nuke, but you'd need an entry into AF/UI state as well as some way to counter duration). There is no existing class remotely as suited to healing as Pugilist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamemako

Unlike every other non-healing class, PGL mechanics are easily hijacked. .

---

There's an idea from EQ2 they called Reactive Healing. Essentially you put a debuff on a mob that would heal anyone attacking it, or a buff on a party member that would heal them when they were hit. Not sure if that's helpful or useful to your idea, but it made me think of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamemako

There is no existing class remotely as suited to healing as Pugilist.

---

So you're going to count 2 CDs (Internal Release and Mantra) and 2 stances as examples of things that could be used to turn them into a healer (one would be a healing stance and the other would be the PGL "version" of Cleric Stance, which doesn't really mean that they'd be getting much out of it as an actual healing class) while completely ignoring the fact that it has absolutely no heals *whatsoever* in the base class nor anything that could actually be turned *into* a heal because everything that they have is punches so that all of their healing abilities would have to come from the job and additional abilities. You're essentially saying that Monk qualifies as a potential healer *because it has CDs that a healer could use*. You'd completely ignore how it has the combat forms and Greased Lightning, the things about PGL that *define* its playstyle (ACN is a pet class so even when it turns into SCH, it's still keeping that playstyle).

Hell, almost any of the CDs that a DPS has could be turned into something a healer could use, which is all you seem to think is needed. You've already said that they would completely change Fists of Air/Earth so it's open for everything. Blood for Blood could increase healing instead of damage with less change than you'd require for the PGL stances and you could turn Keen Flurry into an AoE shield. Life Surge could guarantee that your next heal crits and heals you for the same amount. If the healer is based off of Dex, Hawk's Eye would *already* increase healing potency; the acc might be wasted but it's not like you'd need it. Fight or Flight could get the same treatment as Blood for Blood and you could easily turn any of a number of the GLA tank CDs into AoE protection abilities. Pretty much the *only* class that doesn't have something that qualifies them for a healing job, according to your logic, is MAR, and that's mainly because it's hard to think up ways for Berserk and Bloodbath to heal people without requiring you to punch them (though it could easily open up a MAR based healer that provides splash healing by attacking: just turn Bloodbath and Storm's Path into AoEs and do the same to Thrill of Battle).

PGL has absolutely *nothing* except for 2 CDs that are *vaguely* healer associated that could qualify them for healing and, honestly, only Mantra really qualifies as a legit healing CD. The PGL playstyle itself doesn't even qualify PGL for healing since most of its abilities would be best described as "punch someone, punch someone, punch someone". You can't really recreate the PGL combat style with only 5 abilities, one of which would *have* to be a cleanse, another of which would *have* to be an AoE heal, leaving you only 3 heals; unless you completely abandon Greased Lightning and the PGL combat forms (which are what *defines* PGL), you're essentially giving them a single path to go through constantly, which isn't really a playstyle when you don't have options (not to mention that you'd be giving them a useless CD in Perfect Balance).

I love how you were telling me that PGL makes absolutely no sense as a tank because it would take too much to turn it into one (even though, based upon the logic you've shown here, because PGL has a stronger case to get a tank job because it has Second Wind, Mantra, Featherfoot, and Fists of Earth while also having baseline abilities that can actually be *used* for tanking because, you know, they're *attacks*, which means that it's got 3 CDs and a stance that doesn't require changing compared to 2 CDs and stances that *do* with absolutely no existing baseline functionality) when it would take *more* to turn PGL into a healer.

PGL as a healer is ludicrous. Seriously. Don't just talk about the CDs or in vague terms. Tell me what you would actually do and show us how you would turn PGL into a healer without rendering 90% of the class redundant or completely repurposing *absolutely everything*. I know *exactly* what I would do to turn various classes and theoretical classes into tanks or healers and I cut with Occam's Razor on all of them. I am *dying* to see you actual give some justifiable and comparable theoretical constructs that explain how PGL is a better candidate for a healer job than a tank job.

Don't just say "well, I'd give it heals". Show us. Share with the class.

Quote:

---

If anything, I expect that, if they extend the level range, that BLM will get a Thunder epic (an AoE that applies the Thunder DoT with a 12 sec duration to everything nearby) and maybe some weakened regular use version of Meteor (like Meteo) and Ultima.

---

I could see Comet instead of Meteor. Esp with FF3 the StarDust rod allowed the user to cast Comet. I could see that used as a down play on the Meteor LB but what kind of damage would it do? Non-aspected or keep it classic with randomly assigned damage type at cast? Also, Burst (AoE Thunder application) has my approval.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

There are all these great tank/dps classes or jobs, but what about a healer?

---

Chemist: Gun-toting healer that throws concotions to their allies instead of casting cures, shoots Remedy Darts from their pistols instead of casting Esuna, and shoot salve pellets in between big heals to keep allies' HP up. Derived from the Musketeer class.

Green Mage: Healer built around placing weak HoTs and buffs on allies then "denotating" those into bigger heals when called upon. Can also absorb all debuffs from one ally on a three-minute cooldown. Derived from the Astrologist class.

if u're looking for advance job for WHM in FF world... Devout is the answer... its a direct advancement from WHM
if i'm not mistaken... eitherway... it will be.. maybe years before advancement class appear

@Kitru and Gamemeko:

I'm going to have to agree with Kitru here. Transitioning a PUG into a full healer is going to be rough. They really don't have anything that would immediately qualify them for the role. The skills you mentioned though do have a support element which could be transitioned into though. I think the ideas at play would work better if expanded into more of a DMG/Buff role, not entirely unlike Bard. It allows the PUGs primary reason for being (DD) to maintain, while adding in additional support capabilities. As with all support roles, they come with the caveat of working best in a group that they can buff up, but that comes with the territory. The balance is that a group of Tank/buff/DD/Heal must be more desirable than a group of Tank/DD/DD/Heal, but as long as that remains true, it should work fine and lessen the "necessity" of Bards by spreading the role around a little.

Plus, it's more easily messed with for the DF matching algorithm. Priority can be given to a buffer for the first DD slot and a pure DD for the second, but in the event of a lack of either, the other can be filled in accordingly without really changing the dynamic of the group play.

Of course, I'm biased. I'm not a proponent of hybridizing the classes in this game. It's just so easy to switch roles already that I think mixing and matching based on jobs is just not necessary. While some people don't like being "forced" to go back and level over, it keeps the available grouping population more spread out rather than clumped up at end-game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzain

Transitioning a PUG into a full healer is going to be rough. They really don't have anything that would immediately qualify them for the role.

---

No class right now has abilities suited to a different role without significant modification. Absolutely every class at this point would have to become DPS or support, and we've got too many DPS jobs already, not to mention that GLA and CNJ aren't really suited to anything but what they already are. Heck, ACN isn't really suited to healer, either. ACN's use of Physick isn't really particularly important; those abilities could just as well be cross-classed (and to do the first 3 dungeons, you have to cross-class Raise due to not having access to Resurrection). The thing that makes ACN's transition to healer is the ability to hijack existing abilities (the summons) for a new task. These summons don't just give Carbuncle new functionality, they fundamentally changed the use of the ability without changing the mechanics of the ability. You're still summoning a pet with the ability; it's just a pet with very different strengths. Doing that with the Fists abilities isn't any different.

The problem is really checking all the boxes as you go. At level 30, both current healers have:

-> Normal heal (Cure, Physick)
-> Baseline heal (Regen, Embrace)
-> Burst heal (CureII, Adloquium)
-> AoE heal, however limited (Medica, Whispering Dawn)

...and that's neglecting issues with going down to level 15-30 content. Regardless, you end up needing to steal at least one additional ability for PGL to cover your bases since you only have one of the two Fists abilities at 30. Just to give an example concept (which would certainly need some improvement):

Class changes:
Touch of Death – Altered functionality
Fists of Earth – Altered functionality
Fists of Wind – Altered functionality

Job abilities:
(15): Touch of Death – Erects a barrier on an opponent which heals anyone who strikes it. Effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds. 100 cure potency. Duration: 30 seconds.
(22): Fists of Earth – Increase healing potency by 30%. Increases critical rate by 10%. Cannot be used with Fists of Wind or Fists of Thunder. Shares a cooldown with both. Consumes MP with each use (for real this time).
(30): Chi Release – Restores HP of all characters in a line. 400 cure potency. 15 yalm range. Uses TP. Changes form to Raptor. Additional effect: Increases critical chance by 20% when used in Opo-Opo form.
(34): Fists of Wind – Cleanses one status ailment on targets struck with with Chi Release. Reduces healing potency by 33%. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Wind. Shares a cooldown with both. Consumes MP with each use.
(35): Chi Burst – Restores HP to all nearby characters. 300 cure potency. Additional effect: heal over time. Potency: 50. Duration: 9 seconds.
(40): Touch of Life – Revives one character. 3-yalm range. 2.5-second cooldown. (No cast time.)
(45): Chakra – Instantly restore moderate HP, MP, and TP. Reduces enmity. 300 cure potency. 300 refresh potency. 300 TP recovery. 30-second cooldown.
(50): Fists of Thunder – Grants one stack of Greased Lightning with each use of Chi Release or Chi Burst. Reduces healing potency by 33%. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Wind. Shares a cooldown with both. Consumes MP with each use.

Blah blah underpowered blah blah needs work and all, but it's just a concept. Like I said, the main problems you have are shoving the important stuff into level 30 and making the job work at all pre-30 (would have to cross-class a heal to have basic functionality).

Anyway, due to having those two mechanically-appropriate abilities to use plus two other healer-appropriate abilities, PGL is closer to healer than any other existing class. It's not great, and it requires a pretty ham-handed repurposing of Touch of Death, but it is better than anyone else can muster. THM has one innate healer-appropriate ability (Sleep) and would have to hijack at least two unrelated pre-30 abilities to be effective (assuming AF/UI mechanic takes care of burst need), making it second-best. ARC could theoretically steal Swiftsong (I mean, whatever second job pretty much has to already) and has an aggro-reduction ability which is somewhat handy to have for a healer. GLA has marginally-related Riot Blade for MP recovery (lol). MRD has an axe and heals itself, which is totally... not at all healing-related.