spamming flash?

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Depends on the situation but i'm gonna go on a limb and say NO.. at the very least you should be weaving in Circle of Scorn and Spirits since they are both off the GCD

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Originally Posted by Denver_Max

yes or no, and why?

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Yes AND No

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Use Flash/Circle of Scorn
Flash is not good enough to hold threat on it's own, but it isn't negligible. Using Circle of Scorn/Flash after a Shield Lob with CoS being off GCD is a great way to start AoE pulls. I view Flash as an extension, it's not going to generate a substantial amount of threat, but it's enough to hold something as long as it isn't being focused or heavily AoE'd.

Cycle target/attack to monitor/hold threat on multiple enemies
As mentioned previously, Flash is not enough to hold AoE threat if all the enemies are being attacked by AoE. You will still need to use Flash, but also rotate between your targets to monitor their threat. Fast Blade > Savage Blade > And Rage of Halone will stay combo'd when you switch targets, and using Circle of Scorn/Flash will not break their chain either. So rotate between your targets, and use a combo'd Rage of Halone on anything you're about to lose threat on. This can take a lot of focus when dealing with 3 or more enemies, but pretty fun when you get the hang of it.

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Just copied these from my 10 steps to being a bad pld thread, there are also several others that go into why you should be using flash. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...eing-a-bad-PLD

There are also specific fights where it is needed more than others, Turn 4 for example, you definitely need to use Flash a lot if you're the OT.

before 50, flash is your prime tool, use it few times to head start ...then you will have enough initial aggro against healer (tank is leader,pace setter,highest wall between mobs, if healer or any other picks aggro because you slacked on basics then you aren't tank) also add flash in between every now and then depending on instinct.

yes and rage of halone rotating is more and more important further you progress in levels

at 50 flahs is your friend, scorn is vital extension and halone rotation is major aggro holder...and after getting geared, now then you can finally forget flash spam ...but do NOT skip flash spam when you are in af gears and pre primal weapon, rage combo and scorn alone wont hold at start of fight.

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...continue

my guide to start even at geared state multimob: pull on shield lob depending on place, flash and scorn em simultaneous, start halone after flash 1 and depending on gr flash 2.. initial aggro is one and everything you cant loose.

here is why: on business world there is 10 sec to impress your possible new boss, same applies to tanks: you have 10 secs to get firm aggro on everything that moves, generally no dps class is pulling their biggest hits from first second ,there's always like 5 to 10 seconds before big numbers fly and tank needs be ready with aggro for that.

Unfortunately, before 50 there are too many tanks who just do not appreciate how vital Flash really is pre-50 for holding hate (especially multiple targets agroing) - as I'm maining both PLD and WHM I've seen both sides of the coin, and lately have had too many parties where the PLD doesn't use Flash after pulling with Shield Lob, I go to heal the tank, and bang, the stragglers go straight for me and the tank ignores them!

Please, Flash's value before level 50 cannot be underestimated. It is a vital part of hate generation at lower levels. I learned very early on in my career as a GLA/PLD the sheer necessity of Flash (one of the early GLA class quests basically bashes this fact into you), yet the amount of GLA/PLDs who don't use it is disappointing.

Of course, if you're only facing a single target, then Flash isn't really needed. But against multiple enemies who link/add onto you, especially if you don't a THM/BLM in your party for Sleep the stragglers (sure CNJ/WHM gets repose at 24, but it's not as effective as Sleep, and besides, a CNJ/WHM's job is to heal, not make themselves a bigger hate target than they already are), Flash's importance to hold all the mobs onto you, the tank, is pretty much underlined.

If you're WAR and you have someone sleeping other mobs -> Flash. If you're PLD, CoS -> Flash until half regardless of if there's someone sleeping mobs. If there's someone sleeping mobs, though, don't CoS again when it's off cooldown and make sure you flash after every combo on the focused target. Only useful for WAR on multiple mobs, but also useful for PLD on single target enemies due to the Blind effect from the trait.

Guys, it's really simple.

At 50, single target, don't use flash, you should be using halone combo, and other non-gcd abilities to get and hold threat on most boss fights. Flash uses GCD and delays you from getting your first halone off on boss fights, which is bad.

For AOE we only have 2 spells, circle of scorn, and flash. Those are our only AOE abilities, so you're damn right you should be spamming them when doing aoe packs. With crap dps you might get away with whacking each mob and haloning each mob, but when you start doing speed runs tanking 8-10+ mobs at once with max geared dps and healers who will have to spam or you will die, you need to have a proper aoe rotation down, and that's flashing until you're low mana, then using riot blade combo to get back some mana while keeping the flashes going, and using circle of scorn + other instant abilities.

For single target use Flash so you're not capped on MP, for multiple use Flash 3/4 times if your DPS are focusing and the entire time if they are AoEing.

Flash can be op on single target(boss wise). Not for the hate but for the blind. Had 3total missed mountain buster on titan last night alone.

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Originally Posted by Stalkster

Flash can be op on single target(boss wise). Not for the hate but for the blind. Had 3total missed mountain buster on titan last night alone.

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Yeah and in speed run when you pull what seems like 15 enemies you think u can single target hit each one when 2 BLM are AOEing them ?

Good luck with that .. Warrior on the other hand is easy mode holding agro for speed runs .

Flash + Heavy Swing + Maim + Berserk + Unchained + Overpower spam . Nothing will pull agro from you , one could say its a bit of an overkill lol .

I'm only like level 40, but I can vouch on how good Flash is right now. I always throw a couple out at the beginning for what I call "comfy hate" (so that healer can heal and I won't have to run around chasing the enemy that's chasing healer). I don't know if it's great to SPAM it because if your team is focusing on your 1 target, and your healer doesn't need to constantly 0-100% heal you then you shouldn't lose aggro on the untargetted mobs. In a situation where someone is spamming heavy AoE (this is probably later in the game seeing as I don't see many AoE skills) then I would probably throw Cover onto the AoE'er and spam Flash and CoS :D.

Would be cool if PLD had an ability "next skill used after this has Effect: Increased Enmity." Would be really good to combo with Cos or SW

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

For single target use Flash so you're not capped on MP, for multiple use Flash 3/4 times if your DPS are focusing and the entire time if they are AoEing.

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There's zero reason to use Flash on a single target unless you want the blind. Being capped on MP is meaningless, and Flash is less threat than RoH combo.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

There's zero reason to use Flash on a single target unless you want the blind. Being capped on MP is meaningless, and Flash is less threat than RoH combo.

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Haha, think before you type. It shouldn't be hard to understand why you should use Flash if you're MP capped.

If you think spamming flash for AoE threat is bad... Well, learn to tank big aoe packs.

I do this fine on my paladin for Turn 4, and for speed runs in WP. You spam flash and weave in riot blade(its why the skill is there) doing circles and spirits as possible in between. This is how you aoe tank, and actually its better than warriors as you can keep this up indefinitely. This is also why paladins make better AoE tanks, their mitigation is passive and it applies to every mob in the group, which makes warriors self heal look extra-pitiful. I do not have problems with BLM flare or SMN AoE.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

There's zero reason to use Flash on a single target unless you want the blind. Being capped on MP is meaningless, and Flash is less threat than RoH combo.

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btw, you use flash to keep your TP up. IF you are capped on MP, it means that your TP is dropping, yes it can run out on fights (no nothing before titan counts), especially on really long single target encounters. Usually, its not that much of an issue, but it can happen, and if you have a resource available use it. Using flash means you are generating TP for each cast and still generating threat. It also has a nifty blind component that should be used religiously. Just time it so dr has fully worn off, and enjoy your additional~30sec of extra dodge every 1 1/2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Yes, to summarize, the smart things said were:

- Use flash to AE tank. If you can do AE speed runs in WP without using flash heavily as a PLD, you are the best FFXIV player ever. And no one cares.
- Use flash to blind. Even on single target bosses - its another great mitigation tool. EVEN IF YOU AREN'T THE MAIN TANK. Be careful of diminishing returns though.
- Use flash to recover TP. On titan, I sometimes get low on TP, so I just spam flash for 4 GCDs, it keeps a nice flow of enmity going while allowing you to get TP up. I even do this on WAR.

Stupid things that were said:

- Don't use flash.

ASIDE: My favorite opening combo as a PLD is Flash>CoS>Flash>SW>Flash - that takes roughly 6 seconds and gives you a nice both single target and AE enmity lead.

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I'm glad another agrees with me. ^^

But even if you don't, it doesn't bother me, it just makes me look that much better.

Yes, to summarize, the smart things said were:

- Use flash to AE tank. If you can do AE speed runs in WP without using flash heavily as a PLD, you are the best FFXIV player ever. And no one cares.
- Use flash to blind. Even on single target bosses - its another great mitigation tool. EVEN IF YOU AREN'T THE MAIN TANK. Be careful of diminishing returns though.
- Use flash to recover TP. On titan, I sometimes get low on TP, so I just spam flash for 4 GCDs, it keeps a nice flow of enmity going while allowing you to get TP up. I even do this on WAR.

Stupid things that were said:

- Don't use flash.

ASIDE: My favorite opening combo as a PLD is Flash>CoS>Flash>SW>Flash - that takes roughly 6 seconds and gives you a nice both single target and AE enmity lead.

The only time that I ever spam flash is in WP when those large groups of beetles pop and need to be AOEd down. Spamming it in most combat situations just would not be practical compared to the amount of enmity that can be generated with other skils.

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Originally Posted by MithrasInvictus

The only time that I ever spam flash is in WP when those large groups of beetles pop and need to be AOEd down. Spamming it in most combat situations just would not be practical compared to the amount of enmity that can be generated with other skils.

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For 3 mobs at a time, yes. For 12-15 mobs at a time, no - Flash produces MUCH more enmity per GCD if its hitting probably something like 5+ targets (just a stab).

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Originally Posted by Grailer

Yeah and in speed run when you pull what seems like 15 enemies you think u can single target hit each one when 2 BLM are AOEing them ?

Good luck with that .

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If you would read the 1st page it was targeted at -not using flash on single targets-. Dose it say anywhere you can hold hate on 2pack+ pulls by using single target skills without spamming flash assuming dps are using aoe?

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Originally Posted by MithrasInvictus

The only time that I ever spam flash is in WP when those large groups of beetles pop and need to be AOEd down. Spamming it in most combat situations just would not be practical compared to the amount of enmity that can be generated with other skils.

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Not true.

Pull a groups of 5+ mobs (the point where rotating Harlone combo becomes too slow) and flash spam is the only way to hold them.

Flash spam till you run out of MP.
CoS in between.
Riot Blade to recharge MP
Flash again

Repeat while your group AOEs them down.

Typically, I will pull the number 1 target with shield lob - flash and circle of scorn as soon as they all get to me - full halone combo on number 1 target (with spirits within used during combo) - flash again. Then, if there are only two mobs, I either use savage blade on the first mob and halone on the second. If there are 3 mobs, I will savage one non-number 1 target and halone the other. After this I MAY flash at some point, but usually I don't need to. I just watch all three threat bars and use savage blades and halones as necessary while using circle of scorn and spirits whenever they are up (typically, I will savage the extra mobs and halone the first one unless the first one has plenty of threat, in which case I will halone an extra mob as well).

So, generally I would say NO to flash spamming (I only need two in the situation above). The only time I spam flash is when multiple targets somehow get off me, or if there are small mobs to aoe (such as the beetles in WP).

I will use it on bosses for the blind, but obviously am not spamming it.

EDIT: I think new tanks rely on flash too much. I did Aurum Vale the other day as a MNK. On the second boss (the cyclops), when it did its aggro drop, the tank was running around trying to flash it (and missing due to range) instead of just using shield lob.

yup, some new tanks go rely too much, some rely too little, flash never been and never will be single target holder, nor its effective past initial aggro of multimob pull, well expect when you start have 5+ monsters in aoe field...by then flash spamm is what you have left. too much= you lack aggro on those few you could hold more easily with combo rotating, too little= you just lost initial aggro against healer and all mobs are running nuts around arena.

yes, but you should be doing your standard rotation on as many enemies as possible. it helps to have a bard in the party as well because you will run out of mana...probably.

provoke/shield lob any mobs that you lose hate on, riot blade causes trouble with building hate, but it lets you spam flash a little more (i don't recommend using riot unless you know your going to hold hate for the few seconds it takes to do the combo to the next flash).

whether or not you can hold hate on enemies with solely flash depends on party composition, a strategy like this really doesn't work against a trigger-happy df black mage, nor is it going to work against an OCD healer or a AOE spam healer.

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Originally Posted by Stalkster

Flash can be op on single target(boss wise). Not for the hate but for the blind. Had 3total missed mountain buster on titan last night alone.

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This. While Flash as a threat gen for single-target isnt good its still usefull for blind untill DR makes them immune, i would say 2 blinds then stop using it untill you get full duration again.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

For 3 mobs at a time, yes. For 12-15 mobs at a time, no - Flash produces MUCH more enmity per GCD if its hitting probably something like 5+ targets (just a stab).

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I haven't been challenged by that many at once yet, but I certainly see your point! That is way too many to cycle through and hold normally.

You can hold groups of 9+ mobs in wp using just flash spam with SoS and SW as they come around and Riot blade combo to keep flash going.

You don't even need to use Harlone combos.

This is with full DF and relic gear on the PLD. You can hold more if your group is geared with you.

Before that, when you're only geared to take each group as they come (2-3 mobs at a time, perhaps 3-5), the exact same tactic can be applied.

Flash spam will hold aggro perfectly.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

You can hold groups of 9+ mobs in wp using just flash spam with SoS and SW as they come around and Riot blade combo to keep flash going.

You don't even need to use Harlone combos.

This is with full DF and relic gear on the PLD. You can hold more if your group is geared with you.

Before that, when you're only geared to take each group as they come (2-3 mobs at a time, perhaps 3-5), the exact same tactic can be applied.

Flash spam will hold aggro perfectly.

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its those pulls where flash is all you have left for aggro hold...simply cause flash hits em all but halone combo hits only one per GC and only 3rd GC is halone itself, put on pulls of typical 2,3,4 mob flash "pure spam" is inefficient, flash for initial is efficient and initial aggro with halone combo is super effective.
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remember: you aren't doing wp super pulls till your gear starts equal coil running gears and till that point typical 3 mob pull is pulls you are trying to keep at max pulls, and there flash for initial halone for hold is way to go. AND NO flash spamm WILL NOT hold it if your dps knows what they are doing, only thing flash spamm holds is heal and sole aoe ...but let dps do single target hits and see how mobs run

Untrue.

Flash spam will hold groups of 3 even if you have a zealous single target dps.

Just mark a target so you're auto attacking the same mob as your dps, and your flash spam and spirits and auto attack will hold just perfectly.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

Flash spam will hold groups of 3 even if you have a zealous single target dps.

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This is so dependent on outside variables its not even funny.

I would weigh in to say that if your DPS is comparably equipped to you, and reasonably skilled, this will not work about 80% of the time. In addition, if you flash spam and use RB to keep your MP up to the point where you can keep spamming, you're going to have to either have a Bard, or wait between pulls for your MP. Its kind of silly to do it this way because its so resource inefficient. You are also robbing your party of the damage that you could be doing with combos.

If you are +1'ed (which I see that you are) and have DPS in the group thats Garuda or worse, Flash spamming can probably hold single target aggro, if you have a MNK or DRG with relic or relic +1, I'd love to see a video of them doing proper rotations, and you holding single target enmity over them with flash spamming : D. I'd be impressed.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

Untrue.

Flash spam will hold groups of 3 even if you have a zealous single target dps.

Just mark a target so you're auto attacking the same mob as your dps, and your flash spam and spirits and auto attack will hold just perfectly.

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No, when I get zealous, RoH spam isn't enough to keep up. Flash spam is just insulting.

Indeed Flash spamm never will hold close to equal gear lvl dps single target nuke, if it holds...your dps has L2P issue

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Originally Posted by Denver_Max

yes or no, and why?

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Flash works to initiate group aggro but physical dmg is needed to keep it. Spamming doesn't work because blind will have no effect until it has worn off so it will be a wast of a gcd rotation.

If you are focusing down a marked target flash helps to keep the other enemies interested in you as party builds aggro during normal progression of fights.

Flash early and often but don't waste gcd spamming it.

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Originally Posted by zakalw3

You can hold groups of 9+ mobs in wp using just flash spam with SoS and SW as they come around and Riot blade combo to keep flash going.

You don't even need to use Harlone combos.

This is with full DF and relic gear on the PLD. You can hold more if your group is geared with you.

Before that, when you're only geared to take each group as they come (2-3 mobs at a time, perhaps 3-5), the exact same tactic can be applied.

Flash spam will hold aggro perfectly.

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Find better dps.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Find better dps.

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...and then they all die before the DPS pull agrro.

Really don't need much more than flash spam in WP SR's.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

...and then they all die before the DPS pull agrro.

Really don't need much more than flash spam in WP SR's.

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That's cool for speed runs. zakalw3 has been talking about Flash being able to hold even against "zealous" single-target damage. Clearly, he's not playing with very good DPS. Or they're coddling him and watching aggro.

Flash spam is important in some end game situations, but basically it is a mix. Like someone already said, it won't always keep threat alone, and it's also resource intensive. Scorn and Spirits Within should generally be used on cooldown because they're free, and you have to tab through targets constantly to find anything you're about to lose threat on. If you have one target that you're about to lose threat on and the other targets are OK, you should do a rage of halone combo on that target. If you're close to losing threat on two targets, you can split the savage blade and rage of halone between them and cycle the combo again (though this isn't always the best way to do it, it really depends on how fast you're losing threat). If there's three or more targets you're losing threat on, you probably need to flash spam with some riot blades mixed in if you're low on MP / without ballad.

So yes, Flash spam definitely has a place, but it should be avoided in any situation where rage of halone combos are sufficient, because they don't cost MP. Really though you need to be very dynamic as a tank. DPS and healing change from fight to fight, even in a static, so there is no go-to strategy or perfect rotation that will keep threat in every situation. These abilities all have a time and place, and as with any class it takes a little personal experience to understand when to use each, and also when you don't need to use them. Don't be afraid to keep threat close, either - at end game you'll need to conserve your resources as much as possible. So if you're only a few hundred threat above a DPS or healer, that's good enough, so long as you're confident you can keep it that way. That just takes practice.