SMN and Twintania

Has any thought been given to giving SMN an easier time on encounters like Twintania? Any future encounters that require burst DPS are going to exhibit the same problem.

At the moment, the class is basically a weight that needs to be carried by double BRD. Doing Dreadknights and Conflags is like bashing your head against a wall.
To clarify, I'm not saying SMN can't do Twintania; we can kill her with me as SMN and without double BRD, but I'm saying that they're much less desirable than any other class and our kills would be much cleaner if I were another class.

And you people were saying that burst wasn't needed anywhere. I've been saying for a long time that a 7.5 second ramp up to start doing damage is horrendous, but people get what they deserve for fanboying.

I'd say keep at it. Summoner's definitely lacking a little in the burst, but with proper timing, we've been seeing 1900-2100 fester crits. Our summoner actually beat me by a little bit on overall, and with proper stuns on the Dreadknight, it shouldn't get anywhere. Any slow knocks it down to like old man speed.

The optimal DPS composition is 4 people who know how to play. Beats class stacking any day.

But you're right having 4 people who know how to play and having 2 of them play BRD makes it much cleaner and easier.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

And you people were saying that burst wasn't needed anywhere. I've been saying for a long time that a 7.5 second ramp up to start doing damage is horrendous, but people get what they deserve for fanboying.

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On conflags we're fine. We're faster than anyone else on conflags(Bane+Fester+Obey as soon as Conflag spawns), and we even keep damage on the boss/our own conflag while conflagged.


Dreadknights on the other hand..

Yea lets make every job totally viable for every encounter...

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Originally Posted by Badguy

Yea lets make every job totally viable for every encounter...

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Every job needs to be reasonably viable for every encounter.

I hope you mean "optimal."

Not every job is optimal for every fight, and this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

SMNs can Bane Twin to transfer dots and you have a pet to soak Fireballs.

Does the class need more?

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Originally Posted by Syncness

SMNs can Bane Twin to transfer dots and you have a pet to soak Fireballs.

Does the class need more?

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Sadly, some SMNs think we need it all.

I don't know how they could've even comprehended that we're bad at conflags..

I mean, dreadknights are understandable, but..

WoW, now I have seen it all, a SMN complaining about his job?

You gotta be kidding me, SMNs are amazing on every single scale and you are crying about one mechanic in T5?

SMN dmg on conflag/dreadnknight is as high as anybody elses.

Agree with most in this thread, we use a SMN in our comp for turn 5 and does very good DPS on the required burst portions of the fight.

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Originally Posted by neizero

SMN dmg on conflag/dreadnknight is as high as anybody elses.

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SMN damage is much lower on Conflags, and the additional problem is that we run out of MP on Twintania because we have to hold our Aetherflow for Conflags and Dreadknights. SMN has general MP problems on long encounters, but not being able to Aetherflow on cooldown makes them worse. For our Twintania kill, I had to chug an X-Ether because I was totally tapped at one point.

If you have a SMN doing high damage to Conflags, your other DPS are terrible and I don't see how you can down Twintania with it.
There is absolutely no way for a BLM to not stomp a SMN on Conflag DPS; our Fester hits for as much as a single Fire, and our DoTs only get up to 4 ticks.

BANE BANE BANE BANE BANE

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and our DoTs only get up to 4 ticks

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false! it could get up to 6 ticks total on a 3 stack waxen flesh (or something like that) if you bane properly. and if you only got up to 4 ticks, that is still good! plus ruins plus festers plus pet attacks.

SMN is too fine on that fight.

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Originally Posted by glim

false! it could get up to 6 ticks total on a 3 stack waxen flesh (or something like that) if you bane properly. and if you only got up to 4 ticks, that is still good! plus ruins plus festers plus pet attacks.

SMN is too fine on that fight.

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You can't soak with 3 unless your entire raid is full i90, and even then, it's risky.

I seem to be one of the only people posting in this thread who has actually killed Twintania.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

If you have a SMN doing high damage to Conflags, your other DPS are terrible and I don't see how you can down Twintania with it.
There is absolutely no way for a BLM to not stomp a SMN on Conflag DPS; our Fester hits for as much as a single Fire, and our DoTs only get up to 4 ticks.

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SMN has probably the highest damage on conflags because you don't need to setup on them. SF will already be up, Bane your DoTs -> Ruin 2+Obey->Fester->Ruin->Conflag is dead. Maybe another Ruin. Not to mention that, during this time, we are still doing damage to Twintania, and even when we're conflagged we damage our own(SF), and still damage Twintania(pet). Every other conflag you rotate using 2 charges. To supplement the 1 charge time, use Rouse/Spur/Enkindle/RS off-and-on.

Dreadknights are the only iffy part.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

I seem to be one of the only people posting in this thread who has actually killed Twintania.

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It's a good thing you don't have to kill Twintania to deal with Conflags/Dreadknights. Twintania isn't a hard fight, mechanic-wise. Twister was a huge RNG-gate. It's finding 7 other people that also think it isn't hard that is the problem. Everything I did in Rift was harder than this. It wouldn't even be hard to find 7 other people if the server had real response time like other MMOs.

shadowflare too!

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Originally Posted by Kevee

SMN has probably the highest damage on conflags because you don't need to setup on them. SF will already be up, Bane your DoTs -> Ruin 2+Obey->Fester->Ruin->Conflag is dead. Maybe another Ruin. Not to mention that, during this time, we are still doing damage to Twintania. Every other conflag you rotate using 2 charges. To supplement the 1 charge time, use Rouse/Spur/Enkindle/RS off-and-on.

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I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. I run with a BRD, BLM, and DRG, and none of them require any setup time or cooldowns to kill the short Conflags. I need half of my cooldowns to do it.
Sorry, but there's no way for SMN to compare with a BLM who is taking 1/4 of it's health with a crit.

With that said, Twister has been retard-proofed with the nerf. If you're wiping to Twisters, the people you're playing with are trash, and that might be why you think SMN is good at Conflags.

p.s. this also doesn't consider that we run 100% OOM during the final phase.

how much hp does the conflagration have anyway?

let's count the damage you can dish out as a summon in 12 seconds (non crits) 12 seconds worth of 3 (bane, no 3 sec gcd wasted) dots 1200, fester 750, 4 ruins 800, 4 pet attacks, 800. (pre-casted in anticipation of conflag) sflare, 360.

3860 damage in 12 seconds.

the nice thing about conflagration is we don't suffer from the "ramp time" needed thanks to bane, we anticipate the conflagration coming and renew dots on twin so you could bane healthy refreshed dots.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. I run with a BRD, BLM, and DRG, and none of them require any setup time or cooldowns to kill the short Conflags. I need half of my cooldowns to do it.
Sorry, but there's no way for SMN to compare with a BLM who is taking 1/4 of it's health with a crit.

With that said, Twister has been retard-proofed with the nerf. If you're wiping to Twisters, the people you're playing with are trash, and that might be why you think SMN is good at Conflags.

p.s. this also doesn't consider that we run 100% OOM during the final phase.

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No, you don't have any idea. BLM has a windup if they started at UI3, And Firestarter procs are RNG. It's not like they can just hold on to AF3.

DRG definitely has a wind-up. Do you know how combos work? I mean, unless the DRG is just sitting there with Full Thrust up..Which means you'll fail the total DPS check. Not to mention they can't effectively use their strongest attacks, their DoTs, on it. BRD has wind-up time, too, with their DoTs, or if BL was currently on CD with no reset.

We immediately get what we need on the target, while still doing damage to both, every time. We are the best DPS class for the conflag/fireball phase, hands down. We're the only class that hurts our own Conflag continuously(BRD can with Flaming Arrow, which isn't comparable to SF), or the boss while we're conflagged(DoTs+Pet). MNK would be better at getting the conflag down, but SMN is better(for that phase) taking the whole encounter time to mind.

The conflag part is the most insignificant of the phases, so I don't understand why you're stuck discussing it.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

The conflag part is the most insignificant of the phases, so I don't understand why you're stuck discussing it.

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Dreadknights are pretty insignificant, too, especially with a PLD off-tank.

So then what is the point of this topic?

Because, certainly, it's not like it was Conflag or Dreadknights to begin with, right?

And it's not like you, and the other person, who continually talk bad about the SMN job, were completely proven wrong when pointing to Conflags, right? "They have 7.5s of ramp up time!"

No, they don't. Not for conflags.

"We're worse than all other classes/jobs at conflag!"

What other class/job can have 4 DoTS + 480 potency in the first second of a Conflag being up? Or, if it's a 1-charge phase, even 4 DoTs + 180 Potency + Pet CDs, and possibly RS/Enkindle? No one can match us in a scenario where we can bane to another target, because our single target damage is also our AoE damage.

Guess what? Even if we're worse off on Dreadknights, we're still providing damage on Twintania while we kill them--More than other jobs. It's not like our DoTs + SF just, you know, disappear when a dreadknight spawns. Even further, guess what? If we get stunned, we're still better off than everyone else because of our pet. While we're stunned, we still have ~20-25% of our DPS just chugging along, in addition to our DoTs.



tl;dr

Stop bitching about SMN. We're in an amazing place. Both in utility, and damage.

That's a nice strawman you came up with. Name in my post where I specifically stated that a 7.5 second ramp up was in reference to conflags.

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Originally Posted by Zilara

I'd say keep at it. Summoner's definitely lacking a little in the burst, but with proper timing, we've been seeing 1900-2100 fester crits. Our summoner actually beat me by a little bit on overall, and with proper stuns on the Dreadknight, it shouldn't get anywhere. Any slow knocks it down to like old man speed.

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How exactly are your SMN doing 1900-2100 fester crits? I'm in full ilvl 90 minus 2 pieces, most of it best in slot. With food, int pot and foe requiem up ive only seen about 1750 (edit: and Raging Strikes up). ... so thats a bit high if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

How exactly are your SMN doing 1900-2100 fester crits? I'm in full ilvl 90 minus 2 pieces, most of it best in slot. With food, int pot and foe requiem up ive only seen about 1750 (edit: and Raging Strikes up). ... so thats a bit high if you ask me.

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I've seen 1950 on my end, and that's before I got some ilvl 90 pcs, raging strikes, battlevoice foe requiem, hq pot, and food.

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Originally Posted by glim

I've seen 1950 on my end, and that's before I got some ilvl 90 pcs, raging strikes, battlevoice foe requiem, hq pot, and food.

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I don't see how considering I've just checked your gear and I'm quite a bit more geared then you. It may not have been battlevoice FR when I've tested it us they normally use it for mana or TP song but still I dont see battle voice adding 200-300 damage to a fester

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

That's a nice strawman you came up with. Name in my post where I specifically stated that a 7.5 second ramp up was in reference to conflags.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

And you people were saying that burst wasn't needed anywhere. I've been saying for a long time that a 7.5 second ramp up to start doing damage is horrendous, but people get what they deserve for fanboying.

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Why would you even say that, considering the topic is about Conflags and Dreadknights? Since you didn't specifically mention Dreadknights, that means it was a blanket statement.

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

How exactly are your SMN doing 1900-2100 fester crits? I'm in full ilvl 90 minus 2 pieces, most of it best in slot. With food, int pot and foe requiem up ive only seen about 1750 (edit: and Raging Strikes up). ... so thats a bit high if you ask me.

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When the little snakes explode they have an AoE damage buff-debuff that applies both to you, and the big snake.

Was seeing 1.4-1.6k non-crit Festers on the big snake after that.

Highest I've seen without that is ~1.7k crit, but I don't use INT pots. Our BRDs don't BV FR, either, so you can add at least 200-300 damage on top of that.

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

I don't see how considering I've just checked your gear and I'm quite a bit more geared then you. It may not have been battlevoice FR when I've tested it us they normally use it for mana or TP song but still I dont see battle voice adding 200-300 damage to a fester

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1750 is pretty low for a full buffed crit on a high end ilvl 90 character with +1, all I can say is that you probably saw this crit while missing a buff, either you missed a battlevoice or misclicked a pot or did not have raging strikes up or whatever.

just right now, I got my bard friend to battlevoice requiem for me on a lightning sprite, popped a pot, and it hit for 1250 non crit, if that crits that's 1875. but I'm also missing the full party buff. and since I'm not even in full best in slot, I can say that a 2k crit is very possible.

edit: 1750 is not low, errr more like, it's low if all buffs are up including battlevoice.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

If you have a SMN doing high damage to Conflags, your other DPS are terrible .

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Or maybe you are the terrible SMN?

terrible summoner

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Why would you even say that, considering the topic is about Conflags and Dreadknights? Since you didn't specifically mention Dreadknights, that means it was a blanket statement.



When the little snakes explode they have an AoE damage buff-debuff that applies both to you, and the big snake.

Was seeing 1.4-1.6k non-crit Festers on the big snake after that.

Highest I've seen without that is ~1.7k crit, but I don't use INT pots. Our BRDs don't BV FR, either, so you can add at least 200-300 damage on top of that.

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We haven't had time in turn 5 yet even though we've been there for weeks, so We haven't seen the adds yet. So if they explode and give a damage buff that makes sense. I was talking in general on average fights not with special buffs from mobs.

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Originally Posted by glim

1750 is pretty low for a full buffed crit on a high end ilvl 90 character with +1, all I can say is that you probably saw this crit while missing a buff, either you missed a battlevoice or misclicked a pot or did not have raging strikes up or whatever.

just right now, I got my bard friend to battlevoice requiem for me on a lightning sprite, popped a pot, and it hit for 1250 non crit, if that crits that's 1875. but I'm also missing the full party buff. and since I'm not even in full best in slot, I can say that a 2k crit is very possible.

edit: 1750 is not low, errr more like, it's low if all buffs are up including battlevoice.

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I can promise you've tested it entirely with everything up minus Battlevoiced FR, just regular FR and its barely above 1700. Unless you are including the damage buff from the small adds on twintania which then I dont know.

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Originally Posted by MakotoNano

I can promise you've tested it entirely with everything up minus Battlevoiced FR, just regular FR and its barely above 1700. Unless you are including the damage buff from the small adds on twintania which then I dont know.

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probably, I just think 2000 fester crit is feasible. without the small adds buff on twinny.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

What other class/job can have 4 DoTS + 480 potency in the first second of a Conflag being up? Or, if it's a 1-charge phase, even 4 DoTs + 180 Potency + Pet CDs, and possibly RS/Enkindle? No one can match us in a scenario where we can bane to another target, because our single target damage is also our AoE damage.


tl;dr

Stop bitching about SMN. We're in an amazing place. Both in utility, and damage.

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Agree 1000 % and already answered to Yenn on another thread... Boring to see crying ppl who are unable to play in a decent way their own character (smn here).

Swiftcast bio2 first drops 2.5 secs off that time. Still not ideal, but all that needs to happen is for people to adapt and overcome.

Completely unbuffed, my non crit festers, in full ilvl90 (minus 2 pieces) does about 750-900 depending on the mob. Crit does 1.1k-1.25k. Self buffed with just Raging strikes, its about 1450-1550. Not sure with food. With potion and RS, no food, about 1650-1750. I am not certain on any other. So I guess I might be able to do a lot more with a battle voiced FR up.

For all you summoner's complaining about our damage.. And saying 2k crit might be possible with full stacks on twintania adds, I give you this.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...ester_crit.jpg

I can crit for almost 2k fully buffed without being on twintania's adds.

Edit: Also, raging strikes was not up for this crit I screenshot.

What I dont understand with people complaining about conflag is this, have you never heard of bane? It's super easy to just dot on twintania and then just have everyone run under twintania with conflag and then just use bane and baam you got the 3 main dots up on it and doing full dmg, you can keep shadowflare up to do dmg to both conflag and twintania.

On the the dreadknights sure it's hard to get your dps as fast on the DK as other classes but compared to them you can keep doing dmg to twintania while you have dps on the DK which in turn makes the twister + DK faze even shorter which in turn is a really good thing since you want to get out of it as fast as possible and the whole fight needs to be done in 13 mins or you insta wipe.

Also summoner has the great advantage on the whole fight that during twisters and fire spit they are still doing around 60-70% of their dmg minimum while running around and dodgeing stuff the only other class that can out do this is bards, but most often they dont since they cant turn towards the boss while dodgeing the fire spit and using a skill while dodgeing the twister can lock your position so even while moving at all time the twister will hit you because of lag.

The one place where I can honestly say SMN is bad or well worse then other classes is on turn 4 since our dots does 0 dmg to the knight and soldier untill the shields are popped which is really bad if you ask me. But this is something the developers should fix as I for one think the SMN dmg should count as magic dmg not as non magic or physical dmg because that is just strange