Whats the conclusion here, should we have 1 tanking ring on and then get a ilvl90 dps ring as the other for the Str? or stick with the DL tanking ring?
Also what would you wera, the AK Tank ring, or the Allagan Ring of Striking (i think thats what its called)?
what to use as Ring 2 as War?
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11-01-2013, 02:58 AMDagimp007what to use as Ring 2 as War?
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11-01-2013, 03:09 AMGarnatian
Allagan + Hero Tank rings.
Gearing for Tanks in this game is rather boring. Just go for iLvl > Parry and that's it so long as you meet the ACC requirement. -
11-01-2013, 03:22 AMDagimp007
right now i have on the AK tank ring and the DL tank ring.... i just got the allagan stricking ring (+st, +determ,+acc), i am thinking to swtich to that till i get the higher tanking rings for the simple fact Str does alot and i only loose a little VIt
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11-01-2013, 03:28 AMGarnatianSTR doesn't do anything useful unless you break through the Parry caps. Why haven't you bought the Hero Fending Ring? It's one of the best Myth per Stat you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagimp007
Though as far as Hoplite Vs. DPS Allagan, the difference is pretty neglible, so use whatever you want. -
11-01-2013, 03:40 AMMarveth
Its up to debate a bit but in the end I guess it all comes down to one question, str or vit for war.
And the answer is, depends on what you want to do.
Im no high level war so im sure someone else can give you more exact info but generally I believe if you plan on doing coil you might want to stack vit gear but if you just want to farm AK/WP for other jobs then go for str. -
11-01-2013, 04:13 AMDagimp007i just got +1 a few weeks ago, and been struggling to keep a coil group together so i am usually subbing for other FC till there pally is back and what not i have been debating on ether saving to get +1 on a dps i am lvling or starting to gear the warQuote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
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11-01-2013, 05:46 AMPaikis
All your jewellery should be HQ Gryphonskin melded with VIT, Parry and crit. More HP and nothing else is what PLDs should be gearing for.
You lose 25 VIT by using HQ Gryphonskin stuff, but you gain 45 STR, 45 DEX, some skill speed, crit and determination. For a Warrior it is well worth it. -
11-01-2013, 05:50 AMLeironAnything a Warrior can equip, a Paladin would equi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
You're giving up around 450 hp, just so that you can have a slightly stronger heal on your inner beast, a slight incrase on parry, and a very slight increase on crit and determination.
The 450 HP is far, far more beneficial for a Warrior than anything else.
Stacking vit is pretty much what you should do. -
11-01-2013, 06:30 AMGamemakoAround 10% more healed from Inner Beast plus the additional damage and enmity, probably 1 tier of parry strength (405 tier), and possibly 3-5% parry chance (based on Ninjiitsu's data). It's a tradeoff either way. WAR won't be main-tanking turns 4 or 5 regardless, so I'm not quite sure how much it matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-01-2013, 06:44 AMLeiron
Based off my Bravura +1 relic my inner beast heals around 1183.
Assuming 10% more, that means I would go up to 1300 or so.
That's a lot less than a constant 450 hp that a tan ring would provide.
Furthermore while parry strength and chance would increase, this is still very much a random chance, and doesn't beat the consistency of 450 hp.
Even if you are OTing, I just don't see much of a benefit personally. -
11-01-2013, 06:55 AMGamemakoIncreased damage and reduced healing load are the obvious ones. eHP is always a minimum-value consideration. Returns diminish at a quickly-accelerating rate as you get above the minimum required level. Bringing 600 VIT to Sastasha wouldn't do any good when a SCH fairy out-heals every bit of damage the dungeon offers in the first place. For any content where the additional 25 VIT is not necessary, the increased damage, recovery, and parry offer superior advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-01-2013, 07:10 AMLeironYes deminishing returns need to be considered, but you also need to consider the base in which you are working.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
If you have 8000 health and increase it by 400, thats only 5%.
If your inner beast hits for 1100, and you increase it to 1210, which is 10%.
Sure the 10% is larger proportionally, but realistically speaking, increasing your health by 5% provides a better investment.
It also decreases healing load, because your healers have more time to heal you, and can spend that time DPSing.
Parry is very much luck based, and the overall mitigation it offers overall, is poor.
Sure one can say strictly in terms of speed running you'll complete the contently slightly faster, but it doesn't mean its worth spending millions of gil on an item you would only use in content you over gear anyway.
IMO, you'd be better off swapping your entire gear over a single ring if you really wanted to rush content or see how much hp you can sacrifice for DPS. -
11-01-2013, 09:06 AMGamemakoI think this is a key mistake. VIT does not reduce healing load except for a minimal increase to regen (40% of the amount increased per minute). You do not get back anything from a static HP pool -- the healer has to put just as much HP back in whether you have 5000 or 10000 HP. The amount healed is dependent upon enemy damage, not player HP. By contrast, higher mitigation (e.g. higher parry) reduces total healing load by making a portion of that healing requirement disappear. That means that using Gryphonskin will require less healing time and MP on average even before considering faster clear times. Normal combat is always subject to RNG. This isn't really important to discuss at all: barring the small portion of the time you have Awareness, you can always have enemies randomly crit the heck out of you and make your healer turn around and spamheal to undo it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
//EDIT: I'm not saying one way or the other what the person should take. As far as ilvl70 stuff goes, HQ Gryphonskin is the obvious winner, but when you look at ilvl90 stuff, you have to determine whether you can even afford to lose that HP, and I just don't really have any reasonable way of modeling that as it depends on specific encounters. -
11-01-2013, 10:34 AMPaikis
400hp is basically a rounding error when you already have 8000hp. Your healers will overheal more than that amount on a regular basis. The only time that extra hp is worth having is if you survive with less than 400hp.
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11-01-2013, 11:12 AMJudge_XeroI would say 1 Allagan Ring of Striking and 1 of FendingQuote:
Originally Posted by Dagimp007
I plan to have around 425 STR with Bravura + 1 and 445 VIT for ~ 7k HP. I already do around 1350 self heals with 400 STR and Bravura. I hope to get to an even 1500 with normal hits. -
11-01-2013, 11:35 AMPaikis2 gyrphonskin rings are better in every way than one each of Fending/Striking. If you want to stack Vit, use Hero/Allagan fending rings, for every other situation, double Gryphonskin rings is the only way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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11-01-2013, 12:34 PMLeironBad logic, since Titan kills you with Mountain buster by only 500, then having 4.6k as a Paladin tank is acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
More health is always better for tanking, simply because the strength does not increase the healing by IB significantly enought o beat out the 450 hp gained.
Parry is entirely luck based, and consistency is important.
Furthermore, having more HP means less overhealing, because you have a bigger gallon to fill.
Having 900 HP > getting 200 more HP from IB, and parrying 1% more often, which only works on physical abilities anyway. -
11-01-2013, 02:50 PMGamemakoYeah, doesn't make any sense to go with +13 STR and +15 VIT when you could have +18 STR and +20 VIT from Gryphonskin, lol. You'd consider Allagan Ring of Fending at the cost of everything else, just because VIT happens to be a bit essential right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
I don't see that your support for the statement "more health is always better for tanking" has anything to do with that statement. You have not justified why you would want 450 HP over superior mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-01-2013, 03:09 PMLeironYou are suggesting that parry, which is chance based, is at all comparable to true mitigation i.e. shield oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
It really is not comparable due to the nature of parry.
Parry in itself is not constant, so the actual mitigation will be less than what one would expect.
At best with a 20% chance of parrying an attack and mitigation 25% of the attack, you're creating a mitigation of 15%.
That's a best case scenario.
It also cannot be controlled, you cannot determine when you'll parry a hood swing or a weak hit for 200.
If the boss hits for 1k over a period of 10 seconds and you parry twice, you mitigate the damage down to 850.
That looks good right?
But bosses don't hit for uniform.
What if the boss hits like this
10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,910.
What if you parry two of the tens?
Well you go from 850, and instead move up to 996.
Now you only mitigated a mere .004%
Furthermore, Parry works ONLY on physical abilities.
Vitality works on both elemental AND physical abilities.
Stacking vitality absolutely affords absolute greater survivability, stacking dex does not.
It makes no sense to tell someone "Use a gryphonskin ring over a fending ring" then say in the next breath that "allocating for anything but vitality as a tank is wrong."
Attacks that typically kill a tank are hard hitting abilities that typically cannot be blocked/parried.
The bosses in Turn 2 do not use a single physical abilities, so your increase in parry does absolutely nothing.
Vitality also directly affects the mitigation of abilities such as Thrill of Battle, and also means your healers have a greater cushion to heal you when you take a hit.
It is also chance based.
If you are busy tanking Caduceus with a gryphon skin wing and say "well I MIGHT parry his hood swing and survive 1200 health" w but what if you don't?
If you don't, you die.
If you went with vitality you'd survive with 450, but your heals can top you off, or you can pop an IB afterwards or a second IB even if infuriate is up.
It is better to go with vitality over a dex, you cannot control parry, you cannot will parry into blocking the one physical hit that can kill you. -
11-01-2013, 03:40 PMthemitey1
Leiron, I think you're missing the point of what other people are saying. Extra VIT is only better when you need more HP. If you never go < 400 HP, getting 400 HP is worse than a small chance to mitigate damage. 400 HP has 0 chance to do ANYTHING for you at that point. I rather parry 1 out of 5 attacks than none at all and never dropping below 400 hp. If you need HP, get VIT. If you don't need any more HP, get DPS accessories. It's pretty simple.
Furthermore, I think it's safe to say with min-maxing all your gear, you wouldn't need the extra HP and thus, get DPS accessories.
Here's some more information:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zation-for-WAR. -
11-01-2013, 04:43 PMLeironI've read it and the end conclusion of the OP was that the Rose Ring (tank) was better than gryphon skin (dps) because you'll hit the caps anyway and not be able to go high enough to the next cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by themitey1
In essence it then falls down between parry/s.speed in which case the parry wins, so you'd still be stacking vitality since the rose ring comes with it anyway.
I understand their argument, but I simply disagree with the end conclusion.
Simply because I disagree does not mean I do not understand their argument.
The belief is that once you hit the theoretical point where more vitality is "unnecessary", you use str/dex accessories to enhance your DPS and speed up the run.
I disagree with that conclusion because it works under somewhat inaccurate pretense, which is that the impact of the accessory is greater than the impact of the vitality and is better for speed runs, and that it impacts the DPS of the tank enough to create a significant difference.
Even if a Tank's DPS is increased by 10% the difference in kill times is very low because of how ltank DPS works.
Warriors have high potency ont heir combo and a 300 potency DoT, but BLM's have a 150 potency spell that is increased by 80% at AF3, Firestart procs, Thunder procs, and more effective AOEs.
Same for Dragoons, Monk's etc etc.
TO even make a significant dent in tank DPS warrants swapping your entire gear, and not just your accessories, and given the fact that vitality has no true cap but str/dex/parry do means you may not even be deriving the actual benefit you believe in.
At that point though, you stop being a tank because your vit is too low.
The investment of survivability is too great, and increasing your strength by 25 isn't going to make your DPS have a greater impact.
The fastest speed runs involve utilizing heavy vit tanks, and the reason for this is because it means you can pull more mobs, AOE them down, then move on to the next trash pack.
Heck you need high HP because if the healer pop regen on you before the next trash pack, they pull agro and it all goes to hell.
You want that extra cushion, and the bigger the cushion, the less the healer needs to pay attention to you or utilize emergency cooldowns.
The war of attrition for dying becomes longer, and puts the fight in your favor since DPS has more time to kill the mobs.
So there is no true waste of HP, a diminished effect maybe, but its never wasted.
Edit: On another note and I do not intend to derail the discussion, but is there only one parser for FFXIV? I was planning to experiment with Marauder. -
11-01-2013, 05:39 PMPaikis
Just thought I'd add in, my testing shows a 15% (give or take 1-2%) increase in my DPS by using Gyphonskin stuff. I also go from 23% to 25% parry reduction while in a group. The STR increase is not enough to get you two full break-points, but I am in a position gear-wise where it does bridge the remaining distance.
I am in the process of replacing my melds on the accessories as well. I currently have Parry3/Parry3/Vit3/Vit3/Vit2 in most of them, and am replacing with Vit4/Crit3/Parry3/Parry3/Vit2. I would use Vit4/Crit4/Parry3/Parry3/Vit2 but Crit4 materia is 600k+ on my server and I simply can't afford it. -
11-02-2013, 03:52 AMGamemakoEvery single moment in the game is RNG. Every attack an enemy delivers is between 0% (dodged) and 150% (critical) of its base value. This is unavoidable. Attempting to discount RNG is a non-starter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Your math here is off. A 20% chance to reduce by 25% is a 5% total reduction (0.2*0.25=0.05). As I said, Gryphonskin is going to be an additional 1-2% of physical damage mitigated. You could compare Ninjiitsu's roughly 24% chance of 24% reduction to a 28% chance of 25% reduction, which is a change of 5.76% of all physical damage reduced to 7.00% of all physical damage reduced. This is not large, but far from nonexistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Furthermore, it does not matter at all that it's a random effect. You have just as high a chance of blocking the big attack as any other attack. You are suggesting a scaling problem that simply doesn't exist.
Once again, Vitality does not appreciably affect mitigation. You take 500 damage with 1 VIT or with 999 VIT, and it's still 500 damage. You get back 40% of HP per minute in passive regen and effectively an additional 10% per minute from ToB. At 450 HP gained, it's 225 HP/min. 3 Inner Beast over 1 minute at 1300 average (360 STR + Bravura) and a 10% increase in damage will give you back 390 HP/min, and at an incoming damage rate of, say, 750 DPS, you reduce an additional 558 damage per minute from the greater parry rate. You don't need a Ph.D in mathematics to figure out that 948 > 225.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
First, I said neither of these -- in fact, I very deliberately stated the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Second, you don't even have a point to argue here, and it's tiring. You're actually arguing "with 789 VIT, you still need 2 more to survive a hit from Caduceus!" You don't believe that, but you're saying it because you don't have anything at all to say about excess eHP. Stop that shit. Don't argue nothing for the sake of arguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
Last I checked, there were more than a few errors in that thread (e.g. DEX tier suggested when none was ever found). Rose Gold and Gryphonskin will both end up with identical VIT and parry. Rose Gold has it natively, and Gryphonskin will meld it. There is no reason to consider differences in STR, VIT, and parry between the two because these stats will be identical. Gryphonskin gives you DEX and a set secondary while Rose Gold gives you any secondary of your choosing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
You have underestimated tank DPS, which is around 50-60% of dedicated DPS damage when in tank mode compared to a full-damage-stacked DPS. Depending on party size and healer DPS opportunities, STR-melded accessories will add 1-3% to party DPS. Any DPS switching from ilvl70 to ilvl90 gear will move only 2-5% of party DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Only parry/block strength has known tiering effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
False dilemma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
You mean heavy-VIT PLD? Yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
Only two I know of are LogRep and FFXIV-app.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-02-2013, 05:23 AMLeiron
I lost my entire post so I'll summarize.
I would not suggest utilizing DPS as an accurate measurement of what you will mitigate simply because bosses do not hit for uniform damage.
Titan can drop 6k burst, and while the average can work out to 500 DPS, it doesn't mean your average mitigation is 25 DPS, you may have mitigated a mountain buster, or you mitigated a regular attack.
So while one can try and make the suggestion of mitigation a perentage of damage it isn't necessarily accurate because the damage is not uniform.
also am confused why you measured IB and ToB in terms of HPS, given that they are used as needed, and not constantly, particularly IB which is reactive and if you overheal, its wasted an essentiallly 0hps.
I will assume I am simply underestimating the benefit of parry/tank DPS though
As for LogRep vs FFXIV-APP, which is better? -
11-02-2013, 06:12 AMGamemakoThis does not matter. It makes no difference how the damage is delivered, you still reduce each incoming hit by damage*(chance to parry * parry strength). That is, every hit has the same chance to be reduced by the same ratio. You get a damage pattern of 100-100-100-2000-100-100-100-2000-etc, average damage is 575 per hit. For 25%/28% parry, mitigation is 100(0.25*0.28)+100(0.25*0.28)+100(0.25*0.28)+2000(0.25*0.28)+etc -- which is an average of (7+7+7+140)/4 = 40.25. That's the same as 575*(0.25*0.28).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
It is certainly true that you can account for overheal (and I probably should have) -- you could just as easily estimate an average overheal of 20% or whatever you like. It's not going to be a large difference in this case. I included everything on the basis of HPS because that is the nature of continuous mitigation, the basis of the comparison. Comparing any enemy DPS number must be averaged over a certain number of hits (or must account for randomness by proposing proper scenarios -- not really relevant here because it doesn't involve any discontinuities). Over time, parry reduces healing load by a nontrivial amount. Same with Featherfoot, for example. Neither of these are considerations for whether or not a person survives that one big hit. This is why I said previously that the question of Allagan Ring of Fending vs. Gryphonskin is something I can't really give advice on: I'd need a solid estimate of max burst damage from T1/T4/T5 OT duty to estimate how much VIT you can afford to forgo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
LogRep tends to be more repeatable last I checked, but I don't really have any hard comparisons here, and updates may improve one or the other at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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11-02-2013, 07:32 AMLeiron
In terms of t1 maximum burst at around 3 stacks is aruond 3k or so from Caduceus
I believe that is for a Paladin so you'll need to reverse it and increase the damage by 25% to reverse it I believe.
So the tank would receive around 3600 as a Warrior.
At an ungodly amount of stacks, which is 8, I believe hoodswing hits for around 8k or so
For ADS, at 4 stacks some of the bosses attacks hit for 3k, then an additional 2k on top of that immediately after.
I am unsure of the damage benefit per stack for ADS though.
As for t4 dreadnoughts I believe it runs along the same vein as ADS' burst though the damage comes in more quickly and is at 3 stacks rather than 4.
Its tricky to asy though I ahven't been in BC lately since I've been busy with school -
11-02-2013, 08:11 AMJudge_XeroOh for sure. I thought the OP was just referring to Dungeon Drops/Token Gear. Also, I'm too poor even for normal Gryphonskin rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis