Musings on the DoH endgame in FFXIV

So, topic of the day folks is the "endgame" that DoH have when they hit that infamous level 50 leveling goal. First, let's begin with a preface:

The Armory system allows users to switch to roles on one character and level said role to the maximum of 50 with it's own progression and goals. Naturally, one would assume that at every end of the leveling scheme there should be some sort of endgame.

DoW/M have the ability to go into dungeons and pillage mobs for their loot and increase their strength by gathering tomes which will allow them to purchase gear they may not get in the runs. This is done by adding dungeons with higher difficulty so the progression feeling is really there.

DoL have the ability of every set hours you can go around the world and mine a special item that crafters may need to create items. This allows them to keep track and build up on some economy by selling their wares to the crafters that can create items. This allows their progression to continue as gil is an infinite source and you can simply feed your other needs that way.

Here's where the problem begins: DoH have the ability to craft items past level 50. The progression exists that you need to get certain thresholds to actually be able to craft the item which is good. The problem lies as follows: You either force the crafter to buy a material that the DoW/M farms and buys (Most items crafted at the end game require you to gather Tomes to buy said items) or you actually force yourself to have to level a DoW/M and buy the items from Myth tomes. This goes against the spirit of progression as you're pretty much locked from this point from proceeding without doing some other role, which you should not have to do to progress in your role. This also causes an issue where DoW/M actually are the ones making money off of the crafters as well as once you have Darklight, you simply feed your tomes over to the items and it causes them to have a source of infinite money (I understand this isn't the case yet as the game is new, but it can become the problem.)

Secondly, if you do bother getting the items as a DoH main spec, you then have to craft items that are worse than the items you can originally purchase for DoW/M, or, marginally better. This is progression but very frustrating in the fact that most people don't really see the point. You already begin to discourage the people to want to continue this progression path because there's no real benefit.

My third and final point which is really frustrating for DoH members is this (And is linked to the second point): With 2.1's release, crafters are going to get severely damaged in their already low income situation due to the fact that Crystal Tower will be released and as such, you will have a 24 man dungeon run that will give you better gear than even HQ items. So effectively, CT will kill off the progression for DoH and render it as a side thing to do when you're bored.


S-E, you have a solid crafting system in place and the ability to actually go and make crafting another progression path for some people who simply don't want to do the dungeon grind. All you need to do is allow DoH to effectively get the items that allow them to craft them. Yes, this might hurt DoW to build money. This may also hurt the price of the items. But in the end, you will give DoH roles a purpose and a goal that is currently really in a bad spot.

Discuss!

So you're saying throw DOL away because essentially that's what you're suggesting. The items you can craft sell for more than anything I can mine/gather so you should have extra money to buy materials.

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Originally Posted by Sayura_

So you're saying throw DOL away because essentially that's what you're suggesting. The items you can craft sell for more than anything I can mine/gather so you should have extra money to buy materials.

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DoL cannot gather Coke which is essential to crafting Darksteel. DoL would still have to gather Darksteel which allows Armorers (for example) to create nuggets and furthermore ingots. So no, DoL would not be effectively thrown out.

I don't really have a problem needing the tome mats from combat classes. That's not any different than needing a gatherer to do it for you. You can pick up the class and get it yourself or buy it, either way.

But, at the very least, the two-star crafted items need to cost something close to the same number of tomes as a comparable DL piece so there's a reasonable choice to be made between the two.

Even the best value crafted things, like the Astral jewelry that can work on healer and DPS casters, cost well over what it would take to just get two separate DL pieces.

Some HQ items melded correctly are BIS even with ilvl 90 gear currently available. I'm not sure where you are coming up with this Crystal Tower will make DoH out of business idea.

Well with all the endgame threads going around it should be obvious endgame kind of sucks across the board.

While it is often times frustrating, I'm holding my opinion until the next patch. Housing comes out then, and I believe the last letter said all crafters and gathers will be able to make/gather for housing. I'd like to imagine our end game, and progression will increase then. Even if NPC's do sell some housing items, I'm pretty sure some things will only ever be made by a crafter. :P I'm looking forward to that...unless SE manages to screw that up.

Edit: Just thought I'd add a little something. You want DoH to progress, and keep earning gil, yet you don't want Tome items to exist? How do you expect non crafters and gatherers to buy your things if there wasn't a way for them to farm to make gil too?

So no one else figures they will add iL80+ crafted gear that has the potential to be better than dropped/farmed gear alongside the gear drops from Crystal Tower?

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Originally Posted by AlyssaImagine

While it is often times frustrating, I'm holding my opinion until the next patch. Housing comes out then, and I believe the last letter said all crafters and gathers will be able to make/gather for housing. I'd like to imagine our end game, and progression will increase then. Even if NPC's do sell some housing items, I'm pretty sure some things will only ever be made by a crafter. :P I'm looking forward to that...unless SE manages to screw that up.

Edit: Just thought I'd add a little something. You want DoH to progress, and keep earning gil, yet you don't want Tome items to exist? How do you expect non crafters and gatherers to buy your things if there wasn't a way for them to farm to make gil too?

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Here's what i'll say about the edit:


Gatherers feed Crafters with the materials required to craft items. As such, gatherers get their gil intake from Gatherers. This causes them to have the ability to progress even after 50.

Crafters, in this case, should be feeding your DoW/M to actually use the gear you craft and make it so that you feed their pockets with Gil as well. The problem is that certain items need to have the Tome items which crafters have NO way to really get unless they go into the DoW/M role, which defeats the purpose of progression on the class.

DoW/M already have their progress when it comes to getting better in the form of getting Tomes.

My idea is two pronged:

1) Allow DoH to get a seperate sort of tome currency that is directly linked to all the crafting items that you are currently getting with Tomes. Link it to Leves so that you can do those as a crafter of level 50, and keep the cap if you want to gate the progression. This allows some sort of progress to continue without needing DoW.

2) Remove Tome linked items related to crafting and offer them some other method that crafters can achieve. This can also fall under Leves that are tough to finish but reward you with an item to craft. This could go and be random and allow Crafters to sell the ones they don't necessarily need.

To me, it just makes no sense for you to have a DoH item offered in the DoW/M progression and not to them. DoH items should be linked to DoH. DoW/M level their classes to level a battle class, not a gil making class. They can get money by hopefully doing the dailys that will be introduced in 2.1 or by leves based on DoW/M. Why would DoW/M make money off of crafters to craft items for them that aren't even looked at?

If you want gil, level a craft/gathering class. You shouldn't level a DoW class and expect it to make the most money out of all the classes in the game because the currency is linked to those items you can only farm in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

So no one else figures they will add iL80+ crafted gear that has the potential to be better than dropped/farmed gear alongside the gear drops from Crystal Tower?

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Unless I honestly missed something, nothing has been said about crafters really getting anything other than the housing system being linked to crafters in the form that they'll be able to do a lot of stuff for it. Which is great if that's the case: it'll open up doors for the Crafting community somewhat. It'll be dependent on how many people actually want to buy FC and personal (when introduced) housing.

But it'll still be better than what DoH currently have.

No. There is nothing wrong with players hsving to use other players to gather items. This idea is not good

Frankly, I don't even see what the issue is. DoH buys mats from DoL and DoW, makes an item, sells it to another DoH/DoL/DoW for a profit. DoL gathers mats, sells them to DoH for a profit. DoW farms philo tomes, buys philo items, sells them to DoH for a profit. Looks like a working economy for me.

The system is fine to me. Nobody should be forced to level something they don't want to just to make money. I.E you're primarily DOW/DOM and don't give a rats ass about DOL/DOH. That's their method of making income. Either way, this makes an economy as Zellata said.

The only gripe i have with crafting is that we cannot craft things of equal level/usefullness to the dungeons. Alongside allagan and AF2 should be a crafted set. I think that materials for it should drop FROM coil and should not be in conflict with the tomes of mythology.. Or the mythology --> item conversion should be the same, giving players a choice.

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Originally Posted by Zellata

Frankly, I don't even see what the issue is. DoH buys mats from DoL and DoW, makes an item, sells it to another DoH/DoL/DoW for a profit. DoL gathers mats, sells them to DoH for a profit. DoW farms philo tomes, buys philo items, sells them to DoH for a profit. Looks like a working economy for me.

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The economic issue is that DoW/M can get tiers of end-game items for less cost from NPC vendors using the same tomes that can be used to purchase end game crafting materials. This results in a dramatic decrease in demand for crafted items at end-game; while simultaneously increases the expense on the part of a producer/crafter: end-game for crafting is not a free market (as a part of a 'working economy') because of the impact of end game NPC vendors and items. Think of it economically as Crony Capitalism with the SE regime deciding the NPC vendors are suddenly going to be the economic winners and player-crafters will be the losers by inflating end game crafting materials in price arbitrarily while killing demand. Or another way economically: the opportunity cost of purchasing AND producing crafted items at end game is too high to do otherwise for most rational purchasers or producers.

DoW/M having access to purchase end game crafting materials at arbitrarily inflated prices (set by SE) is just an extension of the artificially inflated end game economy that pushes out crafters in the first place. And it does more to make the niche BiS items where there is some demand from crafters cost more for DoW/M to actually purchase than need be in a truly functional free market tied into a larger working economy.

Although there are crafted items that are BiS at end-game - for the most part, the economic "end-game" for crafters is going back to making mid-level items for sale on the market while there is still a large number of players leveling up, or offering melding services for tips... it's kind of pointless to level DoH past level 45 if you want to craft items and sale them for profit within an actual working economy.

[And yes, I know there are exceptions in both items and crafters making gil at end game - just pointing out the economic issue/problem at play that leading to the end game complaints.]

I'm not going to regurgitate everything APilgrim said but he's pretty much spot on.

I will just add this: Endgame DoH have to go into a DoW/M job to actually continue their progression if they don't want to be gouged by DoW/M trying to sell these items. To maximize profit without incurring penalties, one HAS to level a DoW/M to get the Myth tokens to buy said gear to craft it. That's the only option DoH has.

DoW/M can simply get DL gear and then Coil gear and when 2.1 comes out, CT gear to help with their progression. There is no need to go DoH at any time if one does not want for progression sake.

You must have missed the dev talk about it ages ago but you are expected to have a DoW/DoM class, so that isn't anything people can complain about anymore. They aren't catering to people that only want to craft/gather anymore, it's not even being advertised as such where the original was and you would have a valid argument.

And you are seriously underestimating how many people are looking forward to housing.

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The only gripe i have with crafting is that we cannot craft things of equal level/usefullness to the dungeons. Alongside allagan and AF2 should be a crafted set. I think that materials for it should drop FROM coil and should not be in conflict with the tomes of mythology.. Or the mythology --> item conversion should be the same, giving players a choice.

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This however I believe is a good request. Crafted gear takes more work but it has better potential and you get to pick the color so it is appealing for quite a few people.

Yoshi doesn't want crafting to provide BiS gear. Though I think that you should be able gear that is competitive with dungeon gear. Since rng drop in general suck to gear up having competitive crafting gear to fill in the holes would be great. Unfortunately most of the endgame crafting gear mats area rng as well or cost more tomes to farm than getting the DL equivalent. I don't really except DL gear as dungeon gear or raid gear just filler between level 50 4-8 man dungeon and Coil. If I take a craft to 50 I should be able to make slightly less to equivalent, if hq gear as DL gear.

Now I Know there are some nice 2 star craftables however for the cost and time to make relics are superior and are easier to obtain in general. Would be great as well when vanity slots become available to allow us to make some nostalgia gear like scorp harness or hauby.

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Originally Posted by Yoona

Some HQ items melded correctly are BIS even with ilvl 90 gear currently available. I'm not sure where you are coming up with this Crystal Tower will make DoH out of business idea.

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The trouble with this false logic is you don't understand the way mechanics are working in this game.

Titan HM is what it was in 1.00 only they hid it in ARR. He is a level 110 kill. So no matter how good my stats are on my iL70 gear, they will never be as good as an iL90 piece when fighting a lv. 110 mob because level gap have far more impacting effects on the way that gear functions than a few points of Str or Dex.

Using gear 20 levels below your kill or 40 levels below your kill. Try gearing level 20 and 40 on a 50 to kill an OW 50 mob, you will see what I mean.

The dichotomy between the promise of actual DoH classes and what they realistically bring to the table is ridiculous. The great irony is that crafting in a Final Fantasy game has never been more engaging - but at the same time never been so useless. Besides some very occasional Militia gear and pre-relics, the entirety of endgame crafting consists of making HQ gear for other crafters (quests and AF). 2 star gear is a curiosity at best for all the good reasons listed by posters before me. Guaranteed HQs will eventually make mincemeat out of the markets when the majority finally figures out that there is no difficulty difference besides pushing a few extra buttons. Already I see HQ/NQ selling about the same in some instances and even HQ less than NQ.
When 1.0 was released I was convinced that by making DoH clases, on par with DoW/M, meant that they would be privy to all the same privileges - quests, parties, gear, storyline, etc. The potential was absolutely enormous - and all we got was Hamlet Defense. Crafting will never be key to this game and that's the way Yoshi wants it. It is a sideshow only.

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

You're looking at crafting as though it is the primary focus for something greater than what it is. In 1.0, prior to Yoshi-P taking over, they wanted it to be that way... but that didn't pan out well. It was essentially scrapped, even before the change in leadership. Crafting, despite the interactive/in-depth system for it, is still just a side thing compared to the rest of the game. It will always play a big role for the game, but it will never be on-par to the PvE aspect.

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

One thing that immediately came to mind after reading point 1 was "how is this any different than one craft relying on another crafter/gatherer for mats?" or "how is this different from a crafter relying on DoW/M to get skin from mobs?". The concept itself is nothing new, the means DoW/M is really the only difference... in other words for the crafter, nothing's changed.

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As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

The core reason crafting fails in this game is the same reason it fails in every MMO.

There is no decay.

That and it's a 3:1 cost to replace the crafted over reward gear, using identical content for both.

A system that had reasonable decay and a logical cost for crafted alternatives would mean people would grind in crafted and save their reward, end game stuff for serious content. It still all comes back to no decay means never replaced and that is a nail in any crafting coffin.

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

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It seems like the reason that the games crafting system is how it is, is because they wanted it to play a larger role (as I mentioned), equal to that of the combat classes. Maybe it was because things weren't going well with 1.0, or because they were just way over their heads, but it didn't work out. They essentially bit off more than they could chew. Thankfully, at least the interactive crafting system itself worked out well.

Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best example I can think of where crafting was generally viewed to be on-par with involvement to combat. The problem was though that it was pretty boring, among other things lol.

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Originally Posted by APilgrim

As a crafter I really wouldn't mind if it were just that DoW/M were suddenly part of the gathering/mat supplier picture (I'd probably even enjoy using my DoW/M jobs to increase profit). It's the NPC vendors selling better stuff for less cost that really destroys the market and changes things.

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I certainly agree with you on that. The convenience of it however is second to none. The up side is that there are hq versions that can only be acquired through kills or crafts themselves. Not exactly something to offset that, but it's still worth a small mention. But then comes the more expensive areas of crafting, which is generally the 30s and on. Most relevant goods can't be purchased through the NPCs at that point, some of the lesser items, sure, but the significant parts of the craft usually can't. Skins are definitely a worthy mention of where DoW/M remains the only means to get those things at aldgoat and higher (besides spending leves on random chance rewards of relevant level).

Personally I'm expecting the coke/peacock ore etc to cost fewer philos come 2.1 that or the recipies will require fewer items.

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Originally Posted by Leknaat

Personally I'm expecting the coke/peacock ore etc to cost fewer philos come 2.1 that or the recipies will require fewer items.

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I totally think the same thing (or in addition, they could just increase the supply of tomes gained in/from new content which would have the same effect).

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

That's sad because it's a catch 22:

They made a crafting system that could essentially be a class progress of its own and their ideology is not there. It's almost like they dangled a carrot in front of a horse and the horse honestly sees the treat but never will get it.

I dunno, since the days of Ultima Online, I've yearned for a game that has a great battle system and class system but, as well, an economy based on players and the crafting/gathering class. Maybe seeing the system as strong as it is being thought about as an afterthought more than anything is frustrating.

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What is frustrating about this is that you're not the only one. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because Yoshi and others focus on PVE/Endgame/DoW/M and say this is where the focus is. Well, sure, that is where the focus becomes. Meanwhile there is a huge vacuum for in-depth meaningful crafting/gathering content. So we see no real innovation in the progression of DoH/L and then Yoshi ends up saying - Look people are not really that interested in crafting/gathering. >.>

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Originally Posted by APilgrim

The economic issue is that DoW/M can get tiers of end-game items for less cost from NPC vendors using the same tomes that can be used to purchase end game crafting materials.

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DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

I'm not going to regurgitate everything APilgrim said but he's pretty much spot on.
I will just add this: Endgame DoH have to go into a DoW/M job to actually continue their progression if they don't want to be gouged by DoW/M trying to sell these items. To maximize profit without incurring penalties, one HAS to level a DoW/M to get the Myth tokens to buy said gear to craft it. That's the only option DoH has.

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What are you talking about? DoH don't use or craft any AF2 (myth) gear.

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Originally Posted by Zellata

DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.



What are you talking about? DoH don't use or craft any AF2 (myth) gear.

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I'm pretty sure he meant philo tomes.

The crafting system they have created is amazing. I love all the mechanics but what it's really missing is specialty crafts. Once you hit 50 in all crafts you have zero advantage over anyone else with the same. You are no better at making potions, or making weapons.

I'd REALLY like a job system in this for crafters. Say once you hit 50 leatherworker the next quest after you've finished the class quests (or gotten the luminary) is one to pick between 2-3 different leatherworking jobs. I can imagine all the usual routes like macesmiths, shieldsmiths, dragonskin leatherworkers. Alchemists could be useful again by either specializing in a job that grants them access to great potions. Or they could choose to gain the ability to convert electrum into rose gold, you get the idea.

The way the system is now I hit 50 with a new craft and within 20 mins I'm fully stat capped and sometimes already have the luminary wep. It's kinda nuts that you can COMPLETELY finish a craft that soon. You could say I still haven't crafted one of every item in the log or finished the HQ achievement but those don't grant any rewards like the luminary.

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Originally Posted by Zellata

DL gear is worse than crafted 2-star gear that is fully melded, so players have a choice of getting expensive good item from crafter or inexpensive not-so-good item from vendor.

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Yeah, but it's not 3x the tomes and countless failed melds better. If you're at that point you're in Coil getting drops and buying AF2, which is better.

In the end I don't see how crafting in an MMO can truly be sustained if there's no way to remove items from the game so they need replacement. There has to be gear turn-over. Otherwise everyone gets their stuff and there's an increasingly limited pool of new sells. Especially when crafted gear is very nearly irrelevant with DL being much cheaper and often "good enough" and AF2/Allagan being better...EVE is about the only MMO to circumvent that, because items die and even though there are some awesome drops being on a budget is important.

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Originally Posted by Nenin

Once you hit 50 in all crafts you have zero advantage over anyone else with the same

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Even with specialization, you are still at zero advantage. It is only possible if you limit the number of people specializing or if you are the only one which highly is unlikely.

We also have to keep in mind that the goal of the game is to save the world. I do agree with professions providing up to par but slightly less from endgame content material. Allowing BIS items to crafting professions will result in everyone raiding professions and not saving the world. This has been seen in many other large MMOs. This is a no no.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

Yoshi and others focus on PVE/Endgame/DoW/M and say this is where the focus is.

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Because you must produce a source of consumption first before you can focus on professions. If no one is consuming your goods, they are worth nothing and they pile up.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Even with specialization, you are still at zero advantage. It is only possible if you limit the number of people specializing or if you are the only one which highly is unlikely.

We also have to keep in mind that the goal of the game is to save the world. I do agree with professions providing up to par but slightly less from endgame content material. Allowing BIS items to crafting professions will result in everyone raiding professions and not saving the world. This has been seen in many other large MMOs. This is a no no.

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Yea what I meant with the job idea is you pick one of the 2 or 3 options for each class. Not the battle system where you can max out every job, these would be mutually exclusive.

I don't think you need to limit endgame crafting just so DOW/DOM don't feel useless. The way it is currently there is NO endgame for crafters, but there is for rich crafters who also play DOW/DOM. The highest item level you can get for crafting gear is 55 and you have no wiggle room with any item except materia choices for your HQ militia offhand.

Meanwhile battle classes have a lvl 55 job set, a lvl 55 crafted set, a lvl 70 tome set, a lvl 70 crafted set, a lvl 90 tome set, tons of 50-90 offset pieces, and lvl 80 gear on the way.

I just want a longterm goal for crafters. Even if it's a purely cosmetic change like the luminary tools that's something.